6th Edition posted May 2020
Carlisle Mclean on L.U.R.C.
Commissioner Bill Beardsley on L.U.R.C.
Commisioner Patricia Aho on L.U.R.C.
Kevin Roach
Don Meagher
Susan Johannesman
Carlisle Mclean and George McDonald Part 1
5th Edition posted June 2015
The following are add-ons for the 5th edition:
The Missing Interviews of Cindy Sullivan and John McKibbon
L.D. 879
Richard Roy (or sounds like that on the tape recording.)
Unidentified Woman
For L.D. 1671
(East-West Highway/ D.O.T. committee.)
Senator Roger Sherman
Represen6Beth Turner
Jonathan Nass
Bruce Van Note
Jennifer Mills
John Melrose
John Williams
Ben Yeoman
Tim Doyle
Steve Perry
Against L.D. 1671
Anthony Dunn
Bob Weingarten
Jody Spear
Jenny Gray
Dave Wood
Benjamin Marriner Pratt
Christine (Inaudible last name.)
Neither for nor Against L.D. 1671
Bob Net
Denise Pantella
4th Edition posted April 2015
Bill Armstrong
3rd Edition posted September 2012
3rd edition add on's by order of Appearence:
L.D. 1671:
State Senator Doug Thomas
Second half of Will Neils public comment.
Diane Messer
Sonia Acevedo
Doug Papa
Other matterial :
Chris Buchanan handout to D.O.T. committee on L.D. 1671's work session, while L.U.R.C. was being covered.
Stephanie Itchkawich on L.U.R.C.
Hillary Lister Interview gathering signatures for O.P.E.G.A. investigation.
Lisa Hunt on L.U.R.C.
Hillary Lister interview on missing D.O.T. 1999 study on the proposed 'East-West Highway."
2nd editon posted August 2012
2nd edition add-ons:
Chris Buchanan 2nd half of talkinig to television reporters.
Interview with Jim Freeman
Interview with Diane Messer
Interview with Chris Buchanan
Note to readers:
3rd edition will be posted in September.
It will feature the second half of Will Neils
public comment on L.D. 1671
concerning the proposed
'East-West Highway.'
Along with more that took place that day.
1st edition of Preview for the Occupy Augusta Interviews Posted July 2012.
Not all interviews are completed and more public comments at the State House Committee meetings are awaiting to be added.
This is The Occupy Augusta Interviews Part 5 - The final chapter. The Interviews start with George MacDonald and took place the day after the Jim Freeman interview that was published in Part 4. These interviews take place from January 2012 and end on March 20th 2012 at a rally at the Maine State House. (For the record, Part 5 has never appeared in ArchEnemys online magazine. Hence, the long length of this last part.)
E Mail to Peter to forward to Samantha Depoy-Warren :
To: peter.j.rogers@maine.gov
Subject: Please forward this e mail to Samantha DePoy-Warren, at the Department of Environmental Protection
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 14:18:49 -0500
My name is Doug Papa and I have been writing a series for ArchEnemys online magazine called the Occupy Augusta Interviews. Below are either statements that have been published so far or statements that have been covered for part Four. If you can either state “No comment, I don’t know that information,” or, provide information in response to what has been said that would be great.
In part Two b Nancy Oden said:
Oh, by the way, the head of the (Maine) D.E.P. that was proposed to him…you know for a guy who gets to be governor who hasn’t been in politics of Augusta, they don’t know these people. But, Pattie Aho. Patricia Aho, who is the Commissioner, of the (Maine) Department of Environmental Protection, appointed by him, after the first one he appointed there was some conflict of interest. She was for years, an attack Lawyer for…I’m trying to remember the name of the Portland Law Firm she was with. Anyway, she was an attack Lawyer against activists and for the dumps. That’s what she did. For years. So she gets appointed to head up the (Maine,) Department of Environmental Protection. Which again, is another thing that’s extremely ludicrous."
Q : “I don’t mean to cut you off. Did you say she was actually a Lawyer for the Dumps?”
A : “She was a, yes. She was a Lawyer for the Law Firm…I can’t think of it. It’s on the Web. You can look her up. She was a Lawyer for years for this Portland Law Firm, that was the legal counsel and fought us activists, on dump sites. That’s what she did. For years. I ought to know. 22 years ago she was here in Washington County on the wrong side of a Dump fight, which I lead for three years. With a dump that was proposed for Township 30. Way out in the woods. They thought we were stupid and wouldn’t understand what it was, and what they wanted to do. And behind it all were the guys from New Jersey. O.K.? That’s who the company really was. They had a couple of ‘stooges,’ from Maine who were their front men. But, she was in there against us, against the people of Washington County fighting. She wasn’t the only one. There was a whole bunch of Lawyers, that the bad guys had…”
She also said:
But any way, the Head of the (Maine,) D.E.P. was an attack dog Lawyer working for Dumpers and Garbage Dumpers before she got appointed to head up the (Maine’s) Department of Environmental Protection. You can look up on the website. Just look her up on your Maine.gov. And look up D.E.P. and look her up, you know, and you can get the name of the Law Firm, which I can’t remember.
Later she identified that Law Firm as Pierce Atwood. She also went onto to say:
“…the big dump proposal for Township 30, that we fought back 20 years ago. We beat them out of here. They spent 3 ½ Million dollars and $75,000 all collected from the people of Washington County and we kept them out of here. But it was a trouble for 3 whole entire years of my life! About 3. 24 hours a day.”
Subject: Maine DEP questions
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 15:52:17 -0500
From: Samantha.DePoy-Warren@maine.gov
CC: Peter.J.Rogers@maine.gov
Doug,
Peter Roberts in the Governor’s Office forwarded me your email.
There weren’t any questions in there, so there is nothing to respond to. I’ll reiterate what I said on the phone and that is that the department is not prepared to talk about the public benefit determination application for Juniper Ridge until we issue our determination on January 31, at which point we’ll release a statement.
As for your questions about Commissioner Patricia Aho, she has been an attorney, though she was not at Pierce Atwood at the time Ms. Oden is referencing, for nearly three decades and in that work, served a variety of clients. I’ll again reiterate what I said on the phone and that is that Commissioner Aho has served our state at the forefront of environmental advocacy for over 25 years, working each day to do exactly what she does at the department today and that is to further a strong and healthy environment and a robust and sustainable economy. The Legislature’s decision to confirm her appointment as Commissioner by Governor LePage was unanimous and that speaks to the reputation for integrity, leadership and balance that the Commissioner has come to be regarded for here in Maine.
If you are interested in learning more about the Commissioner, I’d refer you to this profile published recently in the Maine Today Media papers: http://www.pressherald.com/news/DEP-chief-strives-for-striking-balance--.html, as well as the Commissioner’s bio (which I’ve also pasted below) on our website: http://www.maine.gov/dep/commissioners-office/aho_bio.html.
Hope that’s helpful.
Best,
Sam
Patricia W. Aho, Commissioner
Commissioner Pattie Aho, a native of Boothbay Harbor who graduated from Nasson College and earned a law degree from Western New England College, has been in the forefront of environmental advocacy for over 25 years and has been active on many of the critical issues facing Maine, including energy efficiency, greenhouse gas and petroleum regulation. Admitted to the Maine Bar, she most recently served as an attorney at Pierce Atwood and is Maine DEP’s primary liaison with both the Maine Legislature and the Governor’s Office, as well as representing the agency on several state and regional committees, including the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (RGGI).
Pattie lives in Newcastle with her husband, Ron, and has a lengthy commitment to community service, having served on town boards and committees in both Boothbay Harbor and Newcastle and on the boards of the Lincoln County Community Theater and Orchestra and the Maine Tourism Association. She has also been honored with the prestigious Athena Award from the Kennebec County Chamber of Commerce for her advocacy on behalf of the business community.
------------------------------------
Samantha DePoy-Warren
Spokesperson/Director of Communications & Education
Maine Department of Environmental Protection
Subject: e mail to you/ preview of Part 5
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:43:58 -0500
From: Peter.J.Rogers@maine.gov
Hi Doug,
I spoke with Sam again reference the story. Sam tells me she has been open to answering any specific questions about the department and its purview that you provided but cannot go point-counterpoint for 4500 words due to time constraints. She feels for you to allege that the department is censoring information or saying you could not ask certain questions is simply false. She feels she did provide you a statement on the Commissioner.
Peter
Email sent to Peter Rodgers to Forward to the Director of Maine Fish and Wildlife for an e mail reponse before she resigned:
To: peter.j.rogers@maine.gov
Subject: e mail for Edie Smith Maine inland fish and wildlife.
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 11:12:45 -0500
Nancy : “…That there’s a warning in the front of the book that the Maine Fish and Wildlife Department hands out to fishermen with all the rules on fish. It’s basically, ‘Don’t eat the fish in Maine’s Lakes, Rivers, Streams,’ and so on. Pregnant women not at all. Adult men, maybe once a week. Certain species that shouldn’t be eaten at all. And because they have Dioxins and other dangerous chemicals in them. And incinerators, when they burn, regular garbage, -everybody throws things in the garbage. Most people still don’t recycle. Disgusting as that sounds, it hasn’t been made easy enough for them yet. When you burn plastics in particular, that synthesizes Dioxins being released and they tell you that: ‘Oh, we capture the ash before it goes out the Chimney.’ Yes, they capture the visible part of the ash. But minute particles get through. Of course they do. And they float out onto the land. Onto Farmland. People breath them in. And those minute particles contain not only Dioxins, but, heavy metals which never go away. Like lead and Arsenic, and Mercury. Such that all of this over the years has landed in our Lakes. Not just incinerators in Maine, but incinerators in the Mid-West. Which have really tall chimneys. So that it blows into the atmospheric winds and ends up here, because we are called ‘the tailpipe.’ A lot of it ends up here. So our Lakes, Rivers, Streams and Coastal waters have Dioxins, heavy metals, pesticides and all sorts of things that are released by burning people’s garbage. And that is the worst of it of course. There’s ash that sometimes blows. The chimney blows and the ‘fly ash,’ which is the stuff at the top, that’s really the toxic stuff, blows our all over the communities that they are in.
E Mail sent to Peter Rogers to forward to Ken Flecter at the Maine Department of Energy for an e mail response :
To: peter.j.rogers@maine.gov
Subject: e mail for Ken Flecter department of energy
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 11:18:19 -0500
A : “Maine produces 30% more power than we use. All the wind generations. Almost all of the Industrial wind is going out of State, and none of it stays in state. Except for Rollins, which is up in Lincoln. So we’re all opposed to that too. Because, that’s another corporate scam.
A : "That's a great way of putting it. Having Maine as a resource colony. they just replaced this huge 245,000 Volt sub-station in Benton, with a like 120,000 Volt...I'm not sure of the number of volts. They are claiming Maine isn't producing enough energy. They are claiming Maine is not making enough energy in the Legislator. They are replacing a sub-station with one that uses less power. they are not using that much power, because there are no jobs that are using the power. In Benton, I'm not sure if that substation covers 3 or 4 Counties."
E Mail to Peter Rogers to forward to Maine Pesticides Control Board for e mail response:
To: peter.j.rogers@maine.gov
Subject: last email. This one is for Pesticide control board.
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 11:21:43 -0500
‘I.e. : so called Wild Blueberry growers. Those blueberries are not wild. They burn them. They spray them. They take the rocks off. They are no more ‘wild,’ than a sprayed strawberry field, for one thing. So what people hate is the pesticides. They know the reason people in Washington and Hancock and Waldo Counties have large amounts of Cancer is because, of the Poisons that are sprayed ‘willy-nilly,’ practically every year. And we know that and people hate them. But they don’t know what they can do. Now I’ve tried Petitions and have ruled petitions in front of the Pesticide Control Board. Which every member of the Pesticide Control Board, there about a dozen of them, they are appointed by the Governor. And they all have connections to the Chemical Industry. Including the University. And they have a small staff which ‘kowtows,’ to them, because they can get fire them at any time. The only reason they exist, is to let the Chemical companies come in and say: “ O.K.. We now need to test this poison and that poison.’ And they say: ‘Yes.’ They never say, ‘no,’ to any pesticide. Even those that have been banned by other countries, and other parts of the World and Canada. They had never banned one. And so, that’s one whole area of expertise that I’ve worked on and still am for about 30 years on that one. It’s a matter of trying to get other regular people to speak out and show up at hearings and express their anger and discontent at these very things.’
Email from Maine Pesticides Control Board, sent before Peter Rodgers left his post and Adrienne communicated with me.
Hi Doug,
Sorry I didn’t get back to you last week regarding the interview comments. I will contact you as soon as I hear back from the Governor’s office.
Thanks,
Paul
Paul Schlein
Public Education Specialist
Maine Board of Pesticides Control
28 State House Station
Augusta ME 04333-0028
207-287-2731 Phone
207-287-7548 Fax
http://www.thinkfirstspraylast.org
E Mail to Adrienne Bennett Governor Paul LePage's Press Secretary:
This is the e mail you wanted me to send about setting up a time next week about how your office is now going to be interacting with myself due to the online magazine I conduct interviews with and about the State departments I interact with. Just a reminder. I only need interviews with the Maine Department of Environmental Protection to set the record straight on their end on what has been said about them so far in the Occupy Augusta Interviews. I also need Paul over at the Maine Pesticide Control Board to make a statement about the Statement Nancy Oden said about his department and Ken Fletcher at the Maine Department of Energy to comment about how Energy is being exported out of state and I'm done. (I realize that the Commissioner of the Maine State Police would not want to make a comment at all and that's alright.)
If your office does not want me to try and get any more interviews with the last three that I need, that's alright. I got enough e mails from the Department of Environmental Protection and the Maine Pesticide Control Board to place in Part five of the Occupy Augusta Interviews with a disclaimer of being shut off with further interaction with State Departments. If you wish to talk about myself not being able to interview State Representives and State Senators, then yes, we can set up a meeting. If you just need to confirm what I have already stated in this e mail you can save yourself some time and just send an email to confirm that our co-operation will be coming to an end. I understand if the format of ArchEnemys online magazine has people feel uncomfortable to invest the time to conduct great interviews like George MacDonald gave at the State Planning Office.
I do want to say the Peter Rogers was great in trying to set up interviews with the remainding 3 department representives that I mentioned in the first paragraph. I do wish him the best as the new Director of the State Planning Office. I am sorry that the other Director of the State Planning Office was arrested for drunk driving and had to leave his office top be replace by Peter who was planning on resigning from State Government and had a few days left on his notice as Governor LePage's Communications Director.
Well I believe with all the e mails I sent Peter and he told me, two days ago that he forwarded those emails to you, that a pretty clear picture is presented on what will be printed about Samantha over at D.E.P.. Sorry it couldn't be salvage, but I did make the effort to provide her the opportunity to do so. I understand if Peter and Ken don't want to say anything in their defense, if they have nothing to say in thier departments defense. If you still want to see me in a face to face meeting next week, that's great. If not, because I've covered everything in this email, that's fine. I'll just reprint this in part 5 of the Occupy Augusta Interviews so our readers will know why I don't have the freedom to confirm anything anymore from State of Maine Governmental Departments. This way if you no longer want me knocking on your office door again, I won't. If there is anything else like talking to the House Democratic or Republic press secretary's or anything else, feel free to send it in an email. Again, there is only a few State Representives and Senators that I need to talk to get interviews with at this point. If I missed anything just include it in your email to confirm you got this.
Thank You
Doug Papa
Dear Sean Mahoney, Vice President and Director of Conservation Law Foundation Maine.
I was on an internet search engine for the key words: “Pattie Aho Attack dog lawyer for the dumps Maine D.E.P. and came across your blog. It was tagged “Clean Water Act.” The title was
Failure to Act: Letter to Patricia Aho, Commissioner Maine D.E.P. This was posted on Jan. 4, 2012.
I would like to ask your permission to print this entire introduction and letter as posted on your blog for our readers to see. I am not asking for a just a link, but for the entire exact words to be reprinted. In exchange you can use whatever I have and will print in the future of the “Occupy Augusta,” Interviews. I would also like to request any and all information directly or indirectly related to the series I’m doing to be reprinted word for word on the online magazine covering this political drama.
Thank You,
Doug Papa
Owner of Music Trade Magazine.com
Reporting on behalf of one of our advertisers,
ArchEnemys online Magazine
Email recieved from Sean Mahoney
Doug – here is letter sent to DEP as well as one sent to FERC.
Sean
Patricia Aho, Commissioner January 3, 2012
Maine Department of Environmental Protection
17 State House Station
Augusta, ME 04333-0017
Re: Flagstaff Storage Project #L-19313-32-G-N
Dear Commissioner Aho:
We have finished a review of records provided by your Department pursuant to a December 9,
2011, Freedom of Access Act request from our organization, the Conservation Law Foundation.
That review leads us to conclude that the Department, under your direction, intentionally waived
the State’s rights under section 401 of the Clean Water Act, 33 U.S.C. § 1341(a), to certify that
the relicensing of Florida Power & Light’s Flagstaff Storage Project meets Maine’s water quality
standards. That conclusion is contrary to the assertions of the Department’s spokeswoman, Ms.
DePoy-Warren, who publicly stated that the failure to act in a timely manner on the FPL
application was neither intentional nor insidious. While we will never definitively know about
the latter, as set forth below, we believe the failure to act was certainly intentional.
As you know, for the past several years, a new license for the Flagstaff Storage Project, #L-
19313-32-G-N, had been stayed by FERC based on the denial of the Section 401 water quality
certification by the Board of Environmental Protection in 2004, a decision appealed and upheld
by the Maine Law Court in 2007. Since then, FPL had filed an application for a water quality
certification for the Flagstaff Storage Project as a placeholder while it worked with the
Department staff to identify a means to meet the water quality standards identified by the Board
in its original order. The Clean Water Act provides that if an application for water quality
certification is not acted upon within a year of its submittal, the State is deemed to waive its right
to make or to withhold such a certification. To avoid such a waiver, the Department’s practice
had been to request FPL to withdraw and refile the application. Failing that, the Department
would deny the application. FPL, as it had with its other hydroelectric projects, would withdraw
its application for this project and then re-file, thereby “re-starting the clock.” (This is a practice
followed not just by FPL but by most other owners of hydropower projects seeking water quality
certification from Maine.) Thus, FPL filed its water quality certification application for the
Flagstaff Storage Project with the Department on November 15, 2009, then withdrew and refiled
its application on November 16, 2010.
As you also know, action by the Department on water quality certifications applications had for
many years been coordinated by a longtime Department employee, Dana Murch. Mr. Murch
announced that he would retire at the end of the summer in 2011 and documents produced in
response to our FOAA request establish that he began preparing for the transfer of his
responsibilities to other employees at the Department in early summer. Specifically, in June, Mr.
Murch and senior managers at the Department, including Michael Mullen, current head of the
Department’s Land and Water Bureau, scheduled a series of meetings to discuss the transition of
his work load. These meetings specifically included discussion of the Flagstaff Storage Project
water quality certification application. Indeed, Mr Murch prepared a memorandum to the file
dated July 13, 2011, concerning the history and status of the Flagstaff Storage Project and
specifically noting that “Unless DEP acts to approve or deny the pending application for water
quality certification on or before November 15, 2011, certification will be deemed waived by
operation of law.”
On June 17, 2011, you were named acting Commissioner of the Department, subsequently
nominated to take that position permanently on September 9, 2011 and confirmed on September
28, 2011 by the Senate. The documents produced by the Department in response to our FOAA
request establish that shortly after you were named acting Commissioner, Pierce Atwood’s Matt
Manahan, a partner at your former law firm and FPL’s attorney, contacted you to discuss FPL’s
Flagstaff and Brassua Storage Projects and requested a meeting with you, Mr. Murch and
representatives of FPL. A meeting that you organized was set for August 5, 2011 at your office.
On the following Monday, August 8, 2011, you sent an email to Mr. Mullen (delivered at 8:11
a.m. and read at 8:40 a.m.) stating the following – “Hi Mike – We need to talk about Flagstaff
and Brassawa [sic] when you get a chance. Thanks! Pattie.”
A subsequent memorandum from Mr. Murch dated August 12, 2011 to DEP staff, including Mr.
Mullen (who was by then overseeing all staffing of hydropower projects for the Department)
attached a spreadsheet that listed the staff that would be overseeing the various hydropower
projects in the state. Ms. Dawn Hallowell was listed as being responsible for the Flagstaff
Storage Project but it is our understanding that, at the direction of the Commissioner’s office,
Ms. Hallowell never received that file.
Thus, by the time that Mr. Murch retired on August 31, 2011, the documents strongly support the
following: you had been briefed on the status of the water quality certification application for the
Flagstaff Storage Project by the applicant and its attorney and had met with Mr. Mullen, the head
of the lead bureau on that application; and that you and your staff were aware of the options
available to the State with respect to the application. This makes Ms. DuPoy-Warren’s
statements of December 9, 2011 that the failure to act on the application in a timely manner was
due to reorganization efforts and changed assignments at best completely uninformed and at
worst deliberately false.
Even more troubling is the conclusion one can logically draw that after you met with the FPL
and its attorney, you made the decision to not act on the application and thereby waive the
State’s rights to certify whether the Flagstaff Storage Project’s new license meets our water
quality standards. While the Department is legally authorized to make such a decision under the
Clean Water Act, the manner in which this decision was made, particularly after the State had
invested significant resources over the last 7 years in defending the right to determine when a
project does or does not meet our water quality standards, and the subsequent response by the
Department when the waiver came to light, is unacceptable.
We feel strongly that the documents we have seen to date support our conclusion. If, however,
we have not reviewed all of the relevant documents or there are other facts we are not aware of,
we would be most interested in meeting with you to discuss them. If we are wrong and this was
indeed a case of a blown deadline, then the Department should be aggressively acting to ensure
that FERC condition the license for the Flagstaff Storage Project to ensure that Maine’s water
quality standards are met and instituting procedures to prevent such failures in the future. If our
current understanding of the situation does not change, we believe that at a minimum you should
clarify that the Department decision to waive its rights to determine if the Flagstaff Storage
Project met Maine’s water quality standards was in fact intentional and should include an
apology to the stakeholders who were counting on the State to exercise its rights under the Clean
Water Act.
Respectfully,
Sean Mahoney
Vice President and Director
CLF Maine
cc: Peter J. Carney
The following is a reprinted email with the official logo of the United States Environmental Protection Agency Stamped onto the e mail.
Thanks to the C.F.L. for sending this along with permission to reprint an Open letter to Patricia Aho.
UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
Region 1
5 Post Office Square, Suite 100
Boston, Ma 02109-3912
Via E-File
January 4, 2012
Kimberly D. Bose, Secretary
Federal Energy Regulatory Commission
888 First Street, NE
Washington, DC 20426
Reference: FERC #2612-019 Flagstaff Storage Project
Dear Ms. Bose:
This letter is in response to the recent waiver of Maine’s Section 401 authority for the Flagstaff Project license. The waiver was the result of the Maine Department of Environmental Protection’s (“DEP”) failure to act to either approve or deny the pending application for water quality certification on or before November 15, 2011. A Maine DEP spokesperson reported that DEP “lost sight” of the Flagstaff issue because of recent staffing changes. EPA has a strong interest in ensuring that the hydropower project is licensed and operated in a manner that is consistent with federal and state environmental requirements, including state water quality standards. Given the important water quality standards issues associated with this project, summarized below, EPA requests that the license stay be continues until a proper evaluation under the appropriate state water quality standards has been conducted.
EPA has been involved in the environmental reviews of the Flagstaff Project since at least 1995, when the original owner of the project requested water quality certification. In those and subsequent comments to the project applicant, ME DEP, and the Federal Regulatory Commission (“FERC)1, EPA has repeatedly raised concerns over the project’s impacts on aquatic life, including cold water fisheries; wetlands and wildlife;
________________________
1 EPA comment letters include 9/18/95 comments to Central Maine Power on Initial Document; 1/15/1998 comments to FERC on Draft Environmental Assessment; and 11/10/ 2003 comments to Maine DEP on Draft Water Quality Certification.
(End of page 1.)
Mercury levels; downstream uses (Dead River); and recreational flow releases. As EPA understands the water quality certification history of the project2, each year from 1996 through 2002, Maine DEP requested that the owner withdraw and refile the certification request based on an evaluation that excessive lake drawdowns (24 feet and more) would result in the violation of Maine’s water quality standards for aquatic life and habitat. On November 14, 2003, Maine DEP issued a water quality certification, at odds with longstanding DEP staff evaluations and recommendations which have been well documented since 1993.3 the certification was subsequently to the Maine Board of Environmental Protection.
EPA’s December 22, 2003 letter to the Board of Environmental Protection regarding DEP’s 2003 water quality certification for Flagstaff points out that the application of criteria that are less stringent than are necessary to protect the Clean Water Act goal uses must be preceded by a Use Attainability Analysis (UAA) that evaluates and supports such an action. A UAA involves the assessment of alternatives and their costs that (1) provide for use attainment without a downgrade of designated uses, or (2) provide the highest level of use attainment feasible, if a downgrade appears justified. The UAA may be used as the supporting basis to remove or lower a designated use (or adopt less protective criteria) if the analysis demonstrates that attaining the designated use is not feasible due to one or more or the factors at 40 C.F.R. (Note to readers-fancy symbol for subsection appears here.) 131.10(g). A UAA for a hydropower project would include the evaluation of a variety of operating scenarios to determine which alternatives can provide the highest feasible level of use attainment for a particular designated use. Economic and social factors may also be included in the evaluation of what use attainment is feasible. EPA also explained that a UAA in the case of Flagstaff Lake would not need to focus on whether it is possible to attain a “natural” aquatic habitat. Rather, the UAA would focus on the attainability of the Class C criteria, which allow for some change from natural habitat.
The Maine Board of Environmental Protection, in part citing information provided by EPA, denied the Flagstaff water quality certification in July 2004 without prejudice. The Board found that the DEP should either obtain EPA approval of the recently enacted Resolves 2003, Chapter 37, or the applicant should conduct a UAA. This certification denial was upheld by the Maine Supreme Judicial Court on July 26, 2007. In a unanimous decision affirming the Board’s denial of water quality certification of the project, the Court found that that the Board’s action was “reasonable and entitled to
______________________________
2 111 FERC (Note to readers backwards fancy “P” symbol here.) 61,104
3 References: (1) ME DEP/WB internal memo dated May 11, 1993. (2) ME DEP/DEA internal memo dated September 25, 1995. 3)ME DEP letter to CMP dated November 7, 1995. 4)ME DEP/DEA letter to CMP dated February 14, 1997. (5) ME DEP/DEA internal memo dated November 6, 2003.
(End of page 2.)
deference.” (On July 30, 2007 Maine DEP e-filed a copy of the Courts decision and an explanatory letter with FERC and the service list for the Flagstaff project.4)
In November 2009 FPL Energy Maine Hydro LLC (FPL Energy) filed a new application for water quality certification. DEP reviewed the application and stated its position that the drawdown of Flagstaff Lake would have to be limited to about 8 feet to meet Maine’s existing, EPA approved, water quality standards for the lake. DEP advised the applicant that any drawdown in excess of this amount would require a UAA. On November 16, 2010 FPL Energy withdrew and refilled its pending 401 application, which established a new one year period for DEP to act.
FPL Energy (or its predecessor) has been aware of the need to do a UAA for over a decade. EPA has offered several times to assist the State and the company in a UAA effort. Based on correspondence between the DEP and the applicant in 2010, it appeared that movement was being made towards some resolution of the issues, before the DEP “lost sight” of Flagstaff’s water quality certification in 20115.
We believe that the recent waiver of water quality certification for the Flagstaff project would allow operation of the project in a way that is not consistent with Maine’s water quality standards, and is not consistent with Maine’s current inclusion of Flagstaff Lake on the State’s (Note to readers fancy symbol for subsection here.) 305 (b) list as an impaired water for aquatic life uses due to drawdowns. Absent a UAA which justifies the currently proposed drawdown regime of the Flagstaff Project, we believe that project operation as proposed would not be consistent with state water quality standards.
In the currently stayed Order issuing a New License for the Project (106 FERC fancy backwards “P” here 62,232) the Director of the FERC Office of Energy Projects concluded that the license as proposed, with the water quality certification conditions, staff recommendations and other conditions, will be best adapted for the comprehensive development of the project for beneficial public uses pursuant to the Federal Power Act. As discussed above, however, the Maine 401 certification relied on by FERC in its analysis pursuant to Sections 4(e) and 10(j) of the FPA was subsequently found to be inconsistent with Maine water quality standards. Hence, EPA believes that FERC should not lift the stay of the license but rather should reanalyze the project effects against the applicable water quality standards for the project, consistent with the Board of Environmental Protection’s articulation of the meaning of those standards in its denial of the 401 certification.
4 Letter to Kimberly Bose, Secretary FERC from Dana Murch, Maine DEP dated July 30, 2007.
5 Maine DEP letter to FPL dated November 17, 2010
(End of page 3)
Finally, it is important to note that the FERC licensing process is not, and cannot legally substitute for, a UAA under the Clean Water Act. Absent a UAA which justifies the currently proposed drawdown regime of the Flagstaff Project, we believe that project operation as proposed would not be consistent with state water quality standards. While the information developed pursuant to FERC’s process may be useful in a UAA evaluation, only the State has the statutory mandate to implement a UAA process and determine attainability of water quality standards, and only EPA has the authority to approve water quality standards amendments that result from a UAA.
If you have any questions about this letter, please contact me at (617) 918-1561, or Ralph Abele of my staff at (617) 918-1629.
Sincerely,
Stephen J. Silva, Chief
Water Quality Branch
cc. FERC service list
(End of page 4)
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I hereby certify that I will, within the timeframe and means established in 18 C.F.R. (Note to readers fancy symbol for subsection here.) 385.2010, serve the accompanying materials upon each person designated on the official service list compiled by the Secretary in this proceeding (P-2612), unless such person is no longer a representative of the party to be served, in which case I will serve the accompanying materials on an alternate representative of that party.
Dated at Boston, Massachusetts on January 4, 2012
Stephen J. Silva
Chief, Water Quality Branch
EPA-New England, Region 1
5 Post Office Square, Suite 100
Boston, MA 02109
(End of Email)
George MacDonald Interview Maine State Planning Office.
Q : “O.K., this is January 5th. I’m speaking with George MacDonald here at the State Planning Office. George I interviewed, Bob Duchesne from House District 13. I told Jim Freeman from the Occupy movement, whom I interviewed yesterday what he said, and Jim raised some interesting points. Now I’m first going to the Bob Duchesne interview. ‘He did share something he’s always wanted to do. I told him how you followed a dump truck without stopping at K.T.I. in Lewiston. He proposed having someone at the border taking down the numbers of the trucks and what time they arrive. Then having someone at the Entrance ramp, and if they show up three hours later, it’s probably a safe bet they didn’t stop at K.T.I.. I added the effect of catching it all on video camera.’
Jim Freemans response was: ‘It was not I. there is a few people that are doing that. They stopped at the first rest area when you come in Maine. The welcome to Maine, there’s a big rest area there. They’ve spotted trucks in there. They’ve talked to the drivers about going to Lewiston. The driver admitted: ‘I’m not going to Lewiston or Auburn. I’m going straight to West Old Town. Straight to Juniper Ridge.’
Since the State Planning Office is in charge of checking the trucks to make sure the processing has been done at K.T.I., how do you respond to that allegation?”
A : “I have been very aggressive in the past and tried to identify what is in the loads that are delivered to Juniper Ridge. A number of people have told me that there have been loads directly transported from out of State to Juniper Ridge. I’ve spoken with drivers. No one’s confirmed it. What we have at the Juniper Ridge, is a manifest form. I’m going to give you a copy of that now. Each load that comes into the Landfill, is required to complete this form and it identifies the types of waste and the source of the waste. And the driver has to identify by his signature that the above is true. I’ve talked to drivers. I’ve asked them and no one has admitted to me that the load has come directly from out of State. I’ve heard many rumors. I’ve spoken to the drivers. No one’s been able to confirm it. So that’s where it stands. If somebody has verifiable information, Please give it to me. I’ve spoken with the State Police about doing an audit. Doing a survey following trucks that come into the State and they’re willing to work with us, should there be an issue that we discover. No issue has been discovered to warrant putting those resources to work at this point and time. If anyone does have a video, I’d would be glad to see it, and in the operating services agreement, which Casella signed with the State to operate the Landfill: ‘Any waste generated outside the State is excluded as an acceptable waste at the Landfill.’ So if it came from out of State, there are in violation of their agreement. Which means they are in default of the agreement.”
Q : “Now when you said you spoke to the State Police was the Steve McCausland, or someone else?”
A : “No. It’s one of the Lieutenants, over here at the State headquarters.”
Q : “O.K., do you know which one it is?”
A : “I have to go back to my files.”
Q : “O.K.. I was just asking because Steve’s not returning my phone calls or replies…”
A : “No, it’s not Steve McCausland that I’ve been speaking with. I’ve been speaking with one of the traffic…Ummm…One of the State Police officers involved with Traffic Control in the State.”
Q : “O.K., and on a related subject, I told Jim Freeman the following: ‘I read a story. I can’t remember where. It said a woman lived very close to the Juniper Ridge Landfill. Her Daughter moved to Massachusetts and had $16,000 worth of Asbestos removed from her basement. When she asked the driver where it was going, he said: ‘Don’t worry, it’s going to Maine.’
It gets more interesting, because Jim Freeman gave an equally shocking reply. His reply was: ‘It is. As is a lot of other toxic chemicals. What I was told at one point is that they can dump 55 gallon drums of toxic chemicals into the back of the container, and just leave the back door open a little bit. And it just dribbles our along the Interstate and it just gets hard and evaporates, or it gets into the streams along the Interstate. That’s been happening, for a long time. It’s hard to prove. But again it happens.’ Whether this allegation is true or false, would the State Planning Office even consider finding out, through their oversight of the Juniper Ridge Landfill, to prove if it’s happening or not?”
A : “So…Let me understand what you’re saying here. Someone is saying that barrels of toxic chemicals are being allowed to drip onto the Maine Highways?”
Q : “Ah, Jim Freemans response was: ‘There’s a lot of toxic chemicals, and I was told at one point, they dump 55 gallon drums, of toxic chemicals into the back of the container. And then they leave the back door open a little bit, and it dribbles out along the Interstate. And it gets hard and evaporates or it gets into the streams along the Interstate. That’s what someone told Jim Freeman at one point.”
A : “Is there any proof to that?”
Q : “he did say, ‘it was very hard to prove.’ Ah, so again, whether this allegation is true or false, I don’t know. I’m not saying it’s true or false. I just have to basically interview people on what they say, and then try to verify that information; or get a response from other people. Because I’m completely neutral about this to be honest with you. I, I don’t…”
A : “O.K., yup, no, that’s fine. Ummm…you know if someone can actually prove that, that is happening, the appropriate agency to report to is Department of Environmental protection. That would be considered a toxic waste spill. They have a spill response team. They have a process in place. They have trained people to handle those situations. And if they should find someone who is violating the law, and that sounds like it’s a definite violation. They have the ability to prosecute. So that…If someone does know that’s happening and has veritable information, or proof, or strong suspicion, that such a thing is occurring; they should contact the Department of Environmental Protection Spill. They have a 1-800 number you can call and they’ll follow up on it.”
Q : “O.K..O.K.. I’ll take your word for it, because I tried contacting Pattie Aho about an interview and she hasn’t even returned my phone calls. I’m not even sure, (Laughs) if I would get a response to something like that.”
A : “You might wasn’t to try…ummm…looking at their website. They have a spill response number to call, and that might be a better number for you to try.”
Q : “O.K.. Well, it’s not me. It’s just our readers.”
A : “No, no. I just understand that, but the Commissioner is very busy, and maybe there’s someone down in the Department that can answer your question.”
Q : “O.K.. O.K.. And adding to that, another statement I made was: ‘According to our sources, Casella went into a 30 year contract with the state to the tune of $26 million dollars. It was based on the legal and regulatory environmental at the time. Now Casellas’ lawyers are preparing for a fight to keep the state from changing the rules that made the deal great in the first place. That’s if the state moves to restrict Construction Demolition debris. Now Jims’ response was: ‘Let them go to court, because we’re going to win this one. Because we can prove that it’s not really being recycled.’ How difficult would it be for the State Planning Office to either back up or disprove this statement?”
A : “I’m not really sure what his statement is.”
Q : “Ahh…Well, ‘Let Casella go to court,’ Ahh…’because we can…win this.’ Basically if Casella sues the State, Ahh…because they can…O.K., let me back up here. Another, statement I made was according to our sources Casella went into a 30 year contract with the state to the tune of $26 million dollars.”
A : “O.K…can we stop there?”
Q : “Sure.”
A : “Let’s address that. Yes, Casella did pay the State $26 million dollars for their right and privilege to operate the Juniper Ridge Landfill. That agreement is this (taps large 3 ring binder with each sheet in a plastic cover, making it inches in appearance. Maybe four or five inches by memory.) document there.”
Q : “O.K.. and if the rules change, I guess their lawyers are preparing for a fight to keep the state from changing the rules that made the deal great in the first place.”
A : “O.K.. I’m not sure what rules Casella’s attorneys are preparing to fight.”
Q : “Ah, ‘that the state moves to restrict construction demolition debris.’”
A : “O.K.. I’m not familiar with what the state maybe doing with that. Did he…This is Jim Freeman?”
Q : “Yeah, Ah, I guess there’s some legislature, that Bob Duchesne, also said, there is some that there’s some legislation that they’re going to make some moves to try and restrict Construction Demolition Debris coming into the state by making it A) Making it more expensive.”
A : “O.K..”
Q : “And, ah, other measures too. But they can’t do anything in this legislative period because all the bills are set. So it will have to be next year.”
A : “Oh, I didn’t know that. Ummm…I do know that this is a concern amount the amount of material going to K.T.I., from out of state. Ummm…what Casella is doing there is in accordance to D.E.P., rules and regulations, and the license they have. Casella has with D.E.P.. That is a waste wood processing facility. And they are required to accept material and process it, and produce at least a 50% recoverable recycling product. At least half of what comes in has to come out as recyclable or recoverable, and they’re able to do that. Because otherwise D.E.P. will pull their license. So, I can see from a business standpoint, Casella might be concerned about legislation impacting their business plan. But, beyond that, I’m not aware of any language that’s been drafted or presented, that would impact that operation.”
Q : “O.K..”
A : “So and again, you said it might be next session.”
Q : “Right. That’s what Bob said, and Jims’ response was, ah, basically: ‘If they do sue the state, let them go to court, because we’re going to win this one, because we can prove it’s not really being recycled.’ However, you know, I don’t know what Jims’, you know…”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “…evidence is and so forth. But my question to you is: ‘how difficult would it be for the State Planning Office to either back up, or disprove his statement.’ In other words, that statement you made about K.T.I., doing 50% of the recycling. How easy would it be to back up that statement?”
A : “Well, that is all data presented by the operation and confirmed by the reports they submit to D.E.P.. So it would be easy enough for us, to just say: ‘The numbers are, what the numbers are.’ And I know D.E.P. and their processing facility rules and regulations allow for ‘fine material,’ that’s too small to be burned in a bio-mass boiler. Which is the intended recipient of the processed wood. Wood that is too fine to be burned, is considered, ‘Alternative daily cover,’ at Juniper Ridge, and the rules for the processing facility consider that to be recycled. So, as long as they are able to meet that 50% threshold, which includes recovering the concrete and the metal, that’s included with the Construction/ Demo debris and the ‘fines.’ That’s an issue that has to be discussed, in relation to the rules and regulations of the Department.”
Q : “O.K., and my next question is, ah, now is it an incinerator burning at 2,000 degrees and higher at all times; or is it a boiler running at the same temperature? Ah, Jim Freeman said: ‘Most of the time, it’s not and it forms dioxins.’ Ah…I know Bob Duchesne says: ‘It’s not true. It’s actually running at 2,000 degrees, pretty much all of the time. So no dioxins form. Dioxins actually form at a lower temperature.’ But, that’s why I got the question. Because the people at the Penobscot Nation…Ah…the two people in charge of the …One’s in charge of the Water program…Ah…Quality Director, and the other was the Air Quality Director. They say, it’s a boiler. So, is it an incinerator, or is it a boiler, is it both?”
A : “Which facility is this?”
Q : “Ah…the one up in Old Town.”
A : “the one in Old Town is a bio-mass…Ah…operator. Operation. It’s, Ah, boiler operation. Ummm…. Wood is pumped carried by conveyer, into the boiler. Heat is recovered. Ummm…”
Q : “Is it burning at 2,000 degrees at all times?”
A : “I don’t know what the temperature is, that it’s burning at. I’m not involved in that aspect of the program up there. You can talk to someone at the Air Bureau at D.E.P., to find out. Because there is an Air emissions license for the bio-mass boiler up at the Old Town facility.”
Q : “O.K., that’s fair enough. Ah…Ralph Coffman stated at the meeting that took place at the Black Bear Inn. Were you at that meeing by any chance that took place?”
A : “ I was there.”
Q : “You were there?”
A : “Yes.”
Q : “And ah, he said, ‘ I saw test well that were underwater. And then the engineers said you can have 2 test wells 3 feet apart and if there is a fracture in the system, the two wells will not pick that up 3 feet apart.’ He also said: ‘It’s a swamp.’ I said that to Jim Freeman and he said: ‘You put wells 3 feet apart and it is a swamp, as he said. I’ve been in there before they even did the landfill. It’s a huge wetland, and it’s really close to the Alton Bog. It’s kind of a weird place in Maine. You don’t have bogs that size.’ If there are issues with the test wells being underwater in a swamp, how can it be in the public’s interest to expand it? Of even consider expanding it? I should say it the right way.”
A : “O.K., you’re talking about the Juniper Ridge Landfill?”
Q : “Yes.”
A : “You’re talking about test wells, within the property?”
Q : “Yes. Correct.”
A : “O.K.. I’m not aware…There are no test wells that I’m aware of, that are under water. Ummm….I go to the landfill on a regular basis. There is a stream that goes by the (sounds like he said ‘toe.’) of the landfill. We are back from that.”
Q : “Is it located in a swamp? Like these people are alleging?”
A : “The ah, I’m going to use my hands to describe.”
Q : “O.K..”
A : “The Juniper Ridge Landfill, is…on a Drummond. It’s a Geological formation. It’s a rounded, slightly rounded hill. And on the South and South West corner, of the Landfill there’s a stream, that runs by. It’s a very meandering slow stream, with boggy area on both sides. That is below where the landfill is. The landfill sits above that. The landfill hasn’t really been excavated into the soil. There’s been a slight depression made, but most of the landfill sits above normal ground. So, it’s not in the swamp itself. A lot of people are concerned that landfills are in swamps. We want landfills to be situated on soils that are tight. That don’t allow water to drain through. Because we don’t want ground water to be contaminated. If the landfill the landfill did leak, that’s a concern. That’s why we have a clay layer underneath the plastic liner, at the landfill. That’s why we have a leachate collection system, under that liner, to collect anything. So, I’m not quite sure where they are talking about, because I’m not aware of any wells, that are submerged…”
Q : “O.k., and…”
A : “I am not aware of the landfill actually being in the swamp either. Because we can’t. It’s back away from that.”
Q : “O.K.. Ah, well I guess he said in a swamp. But the other point was: ‘If two test wells are 3 feet apart and there is a fracture in the system, the tow wells will not pick it up.’ Have you had any complaints about that?”
A : “No. No one has raised that issue to me. I’m not a ground water specialist. There are people at D.E.P., who are. I look at the results from the ground water tests, that are completed three times a year up there. But so far I’m not aware of any situation, that you have mentioned here about ‘fractures,’ between the pipes.”
Q : “Right, I’m not either. I guess it’s just something that ah, Mr. Coffman brought up, and so forth. Does the State Planning Office actually have to spend any money to ah, own the Juniper Ridge Landfill every year?”
A : “Ummm….The State Planning Office pays my salary, and expenses that I incur related to the oversight of the landfill. Ummm….Casella is responsible for most of the expenses up there. Now and then we do have a little, something to pay, but for the most part Casella pays everything up there.”
Q : “So when someone…”
A : “An example, Ummm… When I have to consult with an Attorney at the Attorney General’s Office. That time is something that the State has to be responsible for.”
Q : “O.K.. So it’s not exactly accurate when, someone says that, “The State Planning Office spends millions of dollars a year for the Juniper Ridge Landfill?”
A : “Ah, yeah. That’s is not correct.”
Q : “O.K.. I appreciate it. ‘cuz that’s…I’m just trying to confirm this information. Ah, there were allegations of illegal chemicals being brought in from out of state, and dumped into Old Town. Bob Duchesnes’ response was: “I would have to defer to the State Planning Office to see what type of checking is being done.’”
A : “Well, this gets back to our earlier question.”
Q : “Exactly.”
A : “The loads are restricted to what is acceptable material. Acceptable material is spelled out in the agreement we have with Casella. There’s a sign at the entrance to the landfill, that says, what is acceptable and what isn’t. And then each load has to have a copy of the manifest, signed by the driver. And that’s how we keep track of what’s going in there. So, that’s our system for checking loads. Yes, I am up there. I do, when I’m up there, I do see what’s coming in on the trucks, and the manifests are there for me to look at. They keep them in the office for me to review.”
Q : “Do you have other people on site, to check this stuff being dumped, as Bob Duchesne assumed during his interview?”
A : “The State Planning Office doesn’t have other people there. D.E.P., staff are there on a regular basis checking, and Casellas’ own staff are checking. Again, should something be delivered that isn’t appropriate, Casella, could be in violation of their agreement. They don’t want that.”
Q : “ Yeah, that’s totally understandable. Now in Part One, Hillary Lister said, ah, ‘Primary thing that the State Planning Office does is run the dump with Casella. Is that true, or do you folks do other things?”
A : “I don’t understand what she is saying. Can you repeat the question?”
Q : “Yup. Ah, she said, “The primary thing that The State Planning Office does is run the dump with Casella.’ I mean, do you folks have other operations hat you do, that the States’ Planning Office does?”
A : “The State Planning Office. Which is about to be dismantled, by the way.”
Q : “Yes.”
A : “It goes away in about six months, maybe sooner. As around a dozen programs in it. One of the programs is: ‘Waste Management and Recycling.’ I have dour staff. A year ago I had six. Down to four. And most of my time is spent overseeing the landfills, the State owns. Whether it is the Dolby Landfill, the Juniper Landfill, or the Carpenter Ridge site. That’s where my time is spent. So no, the State Planning Office, doesn’t spend its entire time, staff and budget on the landfill. And it’s not ‘a dump.’ It’s a highly engineered structure. People like to call it a dump. But it’s not like the dump I grew up with, where it was burned every Saturday, and trash is just thrown and nobody really cared about it. We’re concerned about the environment today. There are extreme measures being put into place to make sure that there’s no releases to the environment, from the leachate. That the landfill gas is controlled. We’re actually collecting the landfill gas generated primary methane, at the Juniper Ridge landfill and we’re flaring it off. And we’re in the process, Casella’s got the lead on this, of actually piping that landfill gas to the University of Maine at Orono. Where they will be using it as a fuel in their heating system.”
Q : “Now do they ‘flare it off,’ onsite?”
A : “They ‘flare it off,” at the facility itself. We have about a three foot diameter. Umm…yeah, three foot diameter. Diameter is across circumference right? Diameter pipe. And it looks like a giant candle. It’s about 40 feet high, and at the top is an 8-12 foot blue-ish to yellow flame that burns 24 hours a day. And that’s burning off the methane and other gases that are released by the decomposition of the waste.”
Q : “Now, ah, is it…the pipeline from Juniper Ridge Landfill going down to Orono, have they actually designed a route yet going down?”
A : “No. No. We’re …or Casella, I say ‘we,’ ah, Casella keeps me in the loop on it. Casella is in the process, of getting the permits for the process. Then they will do the pipeline lay out design.”
Q : “O.K., and Ah…Also Hillary Lister in part one agreed the audience at the Black…at the meeting at the Black Bear Inn, called for an audit of what sort of trash Casella takes in and where it comes from. And you already stated that, ah, you folks do audits too and so forth.”
A : “This information’s available, yes.”
Q : “O.K.. And ah, is it possible…Ah, so you guys, the audits…”
A : “Can I jump in here?”
Q : “Sure.”
A : “Every month Casella prepares a report of each load of material that was delivered to the landfill. Whether it was contaminated soil, ash from a bio-mass boiler, ash from waste energy plant, finding processed residue form a waste energy plant. Construction and Demolition debris, processing residues from different operations, sludge, all that is tabulated and it’s on our website. Ah, we post it, Alana is our webmaster. (She was sitting in during the interview.) I think that’s the right term. (Lets out a single chuckle.) And so you can go to the State Planning Office, waste management recycling website. Go to Juniper Ridge and you can find for the last year, each monthly report for the amount and types of waste that were delivered to Juniper Ridge. And that’s from this information here, on the manifest.”
Q : “O.K.. So you guys are…It sounds like you folks are on top of it.”
A : “Well, we, we try, so.”
Q : “O.K., and ah, Hillary Lister also said in part one, about the meeting. She said, ‘People were unanimous against the expansion, or the public was. The only people in favor of it was Casella, the State Planning Office and the Maine Department of Environmental Protection. Now is the State Planning Office officially in favor of the expansion, or are you guys professional neutral?”
A : “O.K., the, umm...The meeting at the Black Bear Inn was on the public benefit determination.”
Q : “Correct.”
A : “Which is the first step before we, ah, apply for an expansion to Juniper Ridge. So, we had not prepared an application for the expansion. We’re waiting for a decision from the Department on the public benefit determination.”
Q : “Right, Bob Duchesne said that too.”
A : “And, so what we’re looking for is, yes, we support moving ahead, with getting permission to have the landfill expand. Because the landfill will not last for the entire length of contract, that we anticipated, when we signed the contract with Casella. In our contract with Casella, the operating services agreement would actually required Casella to submit an application for the expansion of the landfill. Because the ten million cubic yards capacity it had when the whole process was over, would not be sufficient to carry the needs of the State, for the 30 years we had anticipated.”
Q : “Well, ah, that’s an interesting point, because, I looked at the records and it seemed like when the deal was struck, Casella’s’ tonnage was sustainable low; but then started increasing more and more and more. And I actually, I, from what Jim Freeman and Bob Duchesne says is: ‘If the State was really careful, about how they used the space, the people of Maine, the Juniper Ridge Landfill could last the State of Maine 50 years. But the way Casellas’ is running it, it’s probably going to last 10 or 15 years and so forth. Because they’re bringing in so much Construction Debris.”
A : (Clears throat.) “The agreement for the State, to have Casella operate the landfill was signed in February of 2004. That, and then we got the license from the Department to allow for the , umm…increase in capacity at the landfill. That was appealed, to the Board of Environmental Protection, by ‘We The People,’ and some other folks. Ah, that was settled in October of November of 2004, by the Board of Environmental Protection. Saying that, ‘Yes, you could.’ But it was appealed again to the Superior Court. Superior Court did not rule until March of 2006. That the State could indeed accept ‘Non-mill waste, ‘ at the landfill.’ Prior to that, all we could take was ‘mill waste.’ So if you look at 2004, 2005, the early part of 2006, there’s not a lot of waste going to Juniper Ridge. ‘Cuz we didn’t have permission to take ‘non paper mill waste,’ there. In 2006, the first thing we had to do, was to take the 300,000 yards of paper mill sludge that was buried at the site and mix it. Paper mill sludge is not a very stable product. It’s not a stable waste. It’s very fluid. It has a life of its own. It actually roils amongst itself. It looks like a lava field. It will actually turn on itself. So we had to excavate that. I say we, Casella, and their contractors. Had to excavate that material, mix it with construction demolition debris, to make a more firm base, on which to build the landfill from. You just can’t pile trash on top of the sludge. Otherwise the sludge would just be like tapioca pudding. It will just go anywhere. And so for the first, it really wasn’t until the middle of 2007, that we were really able to start taking, umm…what we thought the landfill would be able to take, in terms of waste streams, whether tonnage or types. But now we have the waste energy plants, their residue streams are going to the landfill. Umm…K.T.I.s’, Casella’s operation in Lewiston, those residues are going to the landfill. We have contaminated soils from clean-ups. Ah, ‘Cutler Base/ Brunswick Naval Air Station, those contaminated soils, came to Juniper Ridge for disposal. They were all tested, deemed to be safe to be land filled at Juniper Ridge. So the tonnage has increased. In 2009, Pine Tree Landfill, Casella owned commercial landfill in, ah…”
Q : “It’s…”
A : “Hampden.”
Q : “Yeah.”
A : “Hampden, was closed. The State did not allow them to expand, so they had to close their operation. That facility was taking in around 150,000 tons of Maine generated waste a year. It’s also taking in a lot more than that of out of state waste. So what they did in 2010, is all the in the State generated waste, began being shipped to Juniper Ridge and all the out of State waste, didn’t come into Maine for disposal. Some came to K.T.I., and the rest of it went somewhere else. And so, yes, the Waste Stream has had, and I’m using hands here, I’m making little jumps: 2007 when we could start bringing in more waste, we did. There’s a jump. 2010 when Pine Tree Landfill was no longer available to accept waste, the waste stream jumped again. So we’re up to around 700,000 tons of waste a year.”
Q : “O.K., and I said to Bob Duchesne. I said: ‘O.K.. Hillary also said, I was…what happened, was she said, -and incidentally Don Meag…’”
A : “Meagher.”
Q : “I always mispronounce that… ‘Meagher is the Casella Rep who allegedly met with the Maine Department of Environmental Protection to redefine what ‘Maine Waste,’ is. Of course that is: ‘If it’s processed in Maine, then it’s considered as Maine Waste.’ I asked Mr. Duchesne if he was familiar with that meeting. He said, ‘I think she’s probably referring to is, when they originally did the deal. That was before, I was in the Legislature. Probably I guess in 2003. Before Casella agreed to get into this deal, to buy the landfill and move that boiler from Athens into Old Town. They confirmed with the State Planning Office and with the Department of Environmental Protection that waste that is ‘processed in Maine,’ so that valuable components are taken out for fuel and whatever, that the residue is considered ‘Maine waste,’ eligible for land filling at Juniper Ridge. So if that meeting did take place, and that conversation was/ is part of public record. So, it’s definitely been a done deal. If waste is processed here the reside is ours.’
If your able to confirm this yourself, does the State Planning Office have those public records on file to settle this once and for all?”
A : “I’m not aware of that meeting. It may have taken place, it may not of. I do know that prior to the agreement being signed, the operator services agreement, where Casella runs Juniper Ridge Landfill for the State, Umm…the standard interpretation of D.E.P. was: ‘If waste came into the State and was mechanically, physically, or chemically altered, the residues from that process were Maine generated waste. And that was the interpretation that we used. Now in 2007, the Legislature said it was. They passed a law. That said that, that those residues, including by ‘bypass,’ so it didn’t even have to be processed. If it was waste destined to a waste energy plant; but couldn’t be delivered there, because the plant was at capacity, or it was broken down, or whatever reason couldn’t manage that waste. It was still considered, ‘in-state waste.’ And I can get you that site, before you leave if you like.”
Q : “Sure, Sure, Sure.”
A : “O.K..”
Q : “O.K., and ah, Bob Duchesne also said, ‘ The person who supervises the landfills from the State ownership point of view, George MacDonald, will end up with the Department of Economic and Community Development.’ Is that all landfills, or just Juniper Ridge, and the other two you named off?”
A : “Ummm…O.K….I…what I’m going to do here is, believe Representative Duchesne, whose referring to the re-organization of the State Planning Office. In which the waste management recycling program, three staff are being eliminated. And they’re overseeing the date, planning, technical assistance program, of the waste management recycling program here. They’re no longer employed. Lana loses her job this year. But their responsibilities are being transferred to the Department of Environmental Protection. The landfill ownership, the actual title, the right, deeds and interest, will be transferred to the Bureau of General Services. Which is responsible for State owned property. And what’s proposed in the ‘re-organization plan,’ is that, the person oversees the landfills, will be transferred to the Department of Economic and Community Development. And that person would oversee the Juniper Ridge Landfill, which is in Old Town. The Dolby Landfill, which is in East Millinocket, that we operate for Great Northern Paper; and then there is a Carpenter Ridge Site, which is undeveloped. It’s a ‘green field,’ that’s west of Lincoln Maine. And that person would be at, ‘D.E.C.D.’ but the actual title for the properties, would be held at the Bureau of General Services. There’s also a proposal to have the person overseeing the landfills, be located at the Bureau of services, not Economic and Community Development. That hasn’t been settled yyet as far as I understand.”
Q : “O.K., and ah, Have you ever worked for ‘Pierce Atwood,’ or any other Lobbying Firm in the past?”
A : “No.”
Q : “Great! I’m so glad to hear that. O.K., ah…”
A : “Who asked the question?”
Q : “Oh, my gosh! I guess, ah, ah, Pattie Aho, was 22 years ago an ‘Attack Dog Lawyer,’ for Pierce Atwood when they had the…”
A : “Was, ah, what attorney?”
Q : “They call her an ‘attack-dog lawyer.’”
A : “Attack-Dog! O.K..” (Laughs.)
Q : “Because for 3 years, they fought at Township 30. Pattie Aho’s side spent 3 ½ million dollars, and Nancy Oden and her crew from Washington County spent $75,000. It was sometimes 24 hours a day. It took 3 whole years, to fight off the dumps out there. And there she is, Pattie Aho, head of the Maine Department of Environmental Protection. And the person before that, Darryl Brown who was appointed, then had to come to the State Planning office because a conflict of interest. Then the person before that, Bob Litell, was also ah…”
A : “David.”
Q : “Dave, Dave Litell, was a former Attorney for Pierce Atwood, so of course I had to ask the question: ‘If you …’ And no one said it. I just had to ask it and I’m pretty relieved.”
A : “I repeat, ‘No,’ I have not worked for Cas…for…Casella. I have not worked for Pierce Atwood. I have not worked for any other legal firm in this State.”
Q : “O.K.. Great. Now at what stage is the State Planning Office at in moving ahead of the application for the proposed expansion?”
A : “Ah, we are basically just waiting, right now, for the Department of Environmental Protection to make a decision on the public benefit determination application. They had 60 days, it’s in statue, for them to make a decision. They asked for an extension, from somewhere around, ah, November 22nd, I think it was the 60th day. They asked if they could have until the end of January, to complete their review, and we said, ‘yes.’
Q : “O.K..”
A : “If we had said, ‘no,’ the application would be denied. So, we said, ‘Yes, let’s keep this processing moving ahead.’”
Q : “O.K., and Darryl Brown was an advisor to the Governor to try and figure out on behalf of the Governor, what the State’s solid waste policy is going to change to. Since you took over Darryl Browns role for the Juniper Ridge Landfill, can you tell us, if your familiar what those changes may be?”
A : “I did not take over Darryl Brown’s role for Juniper Ridge.”
Q : “O.K..”
A : “I’ve…this has been my assignment since April 16th 2003.” (Laughs.)
Q : “Really?”
A : “Along with overseeing recycling and solid waste programs for Maine’s communities and businesses. It’s just been part of what we do here. So, the landfill, whether it’s Juniper Ridge Landfill or Carpenter Ridge, or now Dolby Landfill, it’s just part of what we do here. Amm…I was no involved in the discussions that Darryl Brown or Carlisle McLean,(Note from Doug- Carlisle McLean Current: Senior Natural Resource Policy Advisor at State of Maine Office of the Governor. Past: Attorney at Preti Flaherty.) had, she’s with the governor’s office. I know they went around. They met with all kinds of solid waste people. I believe they met with representative Duchesne. They met, with the waste energy plants. The landfills. I know they met with the Old Town Landfill citizens advisory committee. Ah, they met with other people. I don’t know exactly who they met with, and I have not been involved in the development of the Governor’s policy. So, I can’t answer your question.”
Q : “O.K., that’s fine. Ah, the other thing I wanted to ask, is. On your website, you have this Juniper Ridge time, ah, Juniper Ridge Landfill time line.”
A : “MM-Huh.”
Q : “Do I have your permission to, ah, actually ‘copy and paste,’ this at the end of this interview?”
A : “Yeah. It’s public information.”
Q : “O.K., and also this thing about the Juniper Ridge Landfill, (Pulls out copies printed on paper.) on your site. Would that? Do I need? Can I get your permission to also? Well, not this, because that’s Bangor Daily News; but this little paragraph right here?”
A : “We actually got permission from the Bangor Daily News to post it on our website. They were pleased, that we not only asked them. I guess people post stuff without asking permission. But, they were glad they were able to help inform the public with their diagram. No, if it’s on the website, it’s public information.”
Q : “And this, unfortunately I don’[t have a P.D.F. file, so would it be alright if I just…” (It’s a copy of the drivers manifest.)
A : “Can you take that with you and scan it?”
Q : “I don’t have a scanner.”
Lana : “ I can scan it for him.”
George : “O.K.. O.K..”
Lana : “Send it?”
George : “O.K., good. You work with Lana on that? Yup that’s not a problem.”
Q : “O.K., and do you have any closing statements you’ll like to make?”
A : “Wow! Ah, (chuckles.) You’ve covered quite a range of subjects here. Ammm…”
Q : “Well it’s been going…this things been going on since, like, October. I’ve been doing interviews. And it’s just…honesty, I feel like I’m going insane half the time. You know, like my brains melting. So, yeah, I definitely have to cover a lot of ground and so forth. And that’s why I had all these questions and so forth.”
A : “Ummm…I guess what I’d like to do is, Umm…you know, Landfills aren’t the most popular post of our job. Umm…the State adopted the waste measure and hierarchy: “Reduce, reuse, recycle, compost, incinerate for energy recovery and landfill. Those are the preferred methods for managing waste. Let’s reduce, reuse, recycle, compost. Let’s landfill the very minimal amount that we need to. 84% of the material that went to juniper Ridge in 2010, was residue form processing and material. Casella’s required to operate the landfill, as much as they can, in accordance with the hierarchy. They’re doing the best they can. There’s always room for improvement. But the other side of the coin is, ‘why do we have a landfill?’ We have a landfill because people are throwing things away. Now there are some things that should be legitimately disposed of. It’s not right or they can’t be reused, recycled or composted. Maybe they shouldn’t be burnt. But let’s work as a society, to minimize the amount of waste that ends up at a landfill. Nobody wants a landfill. I’m quite sure, as you’re finding out, it’s not the most favorite way to spend your day.”
Q : (Chuckles.) “Or my life.”
A : “It’s very discouraging, but, and, what we’re trying to do here is, minimize the number of landfill sites in the State. At one time, each town, basically had its own burning dump. We had over 360 burning dumps. The environment was much more at risk then, than it is now. Now there’s 6 or 7 landfills. I say 6 or 7, Greenville’s landfill is in the process of being closed. The town of Greenville. So that’s one less landfill. I don’t know if it’s closed yet or not, but it will be soon, if it isn’t yet. And the landfills today have liners. There’s a way to collect leachate. There’s a way to manage the leachate. There’s a way to better manage the waste so we don’t have releases of Methane gas and Hydrogen Sulfide just going off. That’s being collected and managed. Leachates being sent to treatment plants. It’s not polluting the ground water, like it could be, if it was just let loose. It’s not, it’s collected. At Juniper Ridge, we have tractor trailers with tanks, hauling leachates down to the Old Town Fuel and Fiber belt for processing before it’s released. That’s an expense, but it’s cheaper than damaging the environment. There’s a conscious effort, by the people who run landfills. Whether it’s the private sector or the public sector, to do a good job. Everybody’s watching us. We need to do a good job. Maine has very strict environmental rules and regulations. I think they’re very much needed, and we’re doing our best to comply with them. The landfill at Old Town, Juniper Ridge, is being operated in substantial compliance, with D.E.P. rules and regulations. That’s the highest mark we get from D.E.P.. So I think we’re doing a job good there. Casella’s doing a good job. What I’d like to be able to do, is say: ‘you know, because there isn’t enough waste to run the waste energy plants. That there isn’t enough waste to support the landfill, we can close down our disposal facilitations.’ I don’t see that happening soon. We’re in a disposable society. Our mindset is: ‘Oh we’ll just toss it out. Somebody else…’ A couple of years ago, I was interviewed by the Bangor Daily, and the reporter was saying: ‘How would you sum up people’s reactions to trash?’ I go: ‘people want trash picked up, but not put down.’ They don’t want a landfill in their backyard. They don’t want a waste energy plant in their back yard. They don’t want a treatment plant in their back yard. And so until society accepts that it’s got some responsibility, for the trash that they generate. And they need to participate in reducing the need for disposing it. Finding a better way to manage it, or we’re going to have landfills.”
Q : “So in other words, if everyone recycled everything to the ‘inth degree, then we’re going to continue to have this problem.”
A : “We are going to reduce it greatly. I don’t know if we can ever get it to the point where we don’t need a landfill. But if we can get to the point, where we are not land filling as much as we are. That would be great. If we could reduce our dependency upon landfills, that would be great.”
Q : “Now, you said you had the State Police checking the trucks, is that correct?”
A : “I had talked to the State Police, and they are willing to work with me. They would not only just checking whether the loads are coming straight from, out-of state to Juniper Ridge, but also checking weights. Because when I started my conversations with the State Police, the trucks that weighted more than 80,000 pounds, couldn’t use the interstate, to go to Old Town. They had to get off here in Augusta, if they weighed more than 80,000 pounds. So they’re getting off in Augusta, and going up Route 202. And then coming across through the back way, either through Bangor or Veazie, or up pass Brewer and then coming across in Old Town and going to the land fill. Going through towns and what not. That they can stay on the interstate, and the law has been changed, so they can go on the interstate if they weigh 100,000 pounds. But they still needed to be checked. I mean, what we do at Juniper Ridge, and you’ll see on our webpage, if you go through the Juniper Ridge monthly reports, we track the overweight trucks. And not every truck is 100,000 pounds or less, and we track that. And what the policy is at Juniper Ridge: For the first time the truck drivers’ over 100,000 pounds he gets a warning. A verbal warning. A second time he gets a written warning. The third time, he can’t deliver waste to the landfill for 30 days. And if they’re over, unless they are over 110, 112,000 pounds, they are rejected that day. That’s the last load they’ll bring in. And we’ve had lots of discussions , about what’s the best thing to do. Do we turn the truck away? Well, if a truck weighs 103,000 pounds, do we turn the truck away and send it back out on the roads to some other place? So the policy has been: ‘We’re accept it, but we’re start warning them not to do that.’ And not every truck comes from a place that has scales. A lot of the cleanup sites, like down at Cutler, on the coast, there were no scales for weighing the trucks. So it’s kinda hard to know if you’re at 98 or 103,000 pounds payloads.”
Q : “O.K.. Well, I want to thank you very much and I hope you have a great day.”
A : “O.K.. Not a problem, and I’ll give you this. It’s an article from one of the publications we get, and it’s just ‘Landfills are still number one.’ Public enemy’s that is. So I know. But it’s true. Like I was saying, nobody wants a landfill in their backyard. Nobody wants a landfill period. It’s got to be a better way about it, I just thought. This is from a waste industries publication.”
Q : “Right.”
A : “So, just to give you their perspective.”
Q : “I appreciate that. I appreciate your time too. I know it was a long interview.”
A : “Hey, glad to help.”
Q : “Great, thank you.”
A : “You’re welcome. And what I’ll do is I’ll also give Lana the statutory site for in-state waste.”
Q : “That would be great. That would be great.”
A : “So, you’ll have that. Before we even thought of developing West Old Town landfill, and a little background. Is, the landfill was originally called, ‘James River Landfill.’ Back when James River Paper Company started it. Back in the mid…started the process in the late 80’s, and actually started the landfill in 1995. And, when the State began to process, to acquire the landfill, I met with the city council, the Old town City Council. And they supported the development of the landfill at that time. But they said, ‘We have one request Mr. MacDonald.’ I said, ‘Call me George.’ They said, ‘Please change the name of the landfill. We don’t want to name of our city to be the name of the state landfill.’ I said, ‘Not a problem.’ And so, after the dust settled, and we had permission to bring in other wastes, the name became Juniper Ridge.”
Q : “Even through Junipers don’t grow on ridges.” (Laughs.)
A : “Yeah, but Juniper Ridge landfill is, it could be anywhere, and , ah, that’s what the city council wanted. So, I think we tried to accommodate their wish. And, no, ah, (chuckles.) I grew up on the coast and Junipers grow most anywhere. But I haven’t found any up there yet.”
Q : “Right.”
A : “But it just fit well, so.”
Q : "I just had to say that because Ralph Coffman said that, and it's just one of those things that stuck out in my brain. O.K.. Well, I want to thank you very much, my tapes almost over. I hope you have a great day."
A : "You too."
Q : "Thank you."
Attempt to verify Nancy Oden statement with Pattie Aho-Commissor Maine Department of Environmental Protection.
Q : "Pattie do you mind if I ask you a quick question?"
A : "On what?"
Q : "Ah, 22 years ago were you..."
A : "Who are you?"
Q : "My name is Doug Papa."
A : "And no, you can't ask me this while they're in middle of a work session."
Q : "O.K.."
A : "Sorry."
Q : "No problem."
Juniper Ridge Landfill
The Juniper Ridge Landfill is owned by the State of Maine and is part of the solid waste disposal system within the state that provides for Maine's solid waste disposal needs. Juniper Ridge Landfill accepts residues from waste-to-energy facilities, construction/demolition debris and other wastes generated within the State.
Juniper Ridge Landfill is operated by New England Waste Services of Maine, LLC, a subsidiary of Casella Waste Systems.
Background on the landfill:
In 1989, the Maine Legislature banned new commercial solid waste disposal facilities and placed the responsibility for providing future disposal capacity on the State itself. In accordance with this policy, in 2003, the Legislature directed the State to acquire the Juniper Ridge Landfill in Old Town, Maine to address the solid waste disposal needs of Maine residents and businesses. (Juniper Ridge Timeline - PDF 50KB)
SPO submitted its application for its Public Benefit Determination for the proposed expansion of the Juniper Ridge Landfill on September 16, 2011. Copies are available for viewing at Old Town’s City Hall, Alton’s Town Office and at the DEP office on Hogan Road in Bangor. You can also view a PDF file of the submitted application here: JRL Public Benefit Deterimation Application (PDF 7.68MB)
Exploring the Juniper Ridge Landfill - graphic - Bangor Daily News, June 2010 (PDF - 255KB). View entire BDN Juniper Ridge Landfill article (PDF 314KB).
On January 31, 2012, the Department of Environmental Protection issued a partial approval on the Public Benefit Determination, which may be viewed at http://www.maine.gov/dep/waste/juniperridge/
Legislative Links:
For more information on Juniper Ridge Landfill, please see options below:
· Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ PDF 76KB)
· Juniper Ridge Monthly Reports (includes status overview of major activities at the landfill during the past month, waste deliveries, financial benefit report and other records). Use drop down menu below to select month, year and report. Reports are posted for a twelve month period. If you wish to obtain older reports please email your request to Lana LaPlant-Ellis.
· Juniper Ridge Annual Reports - 2010 Annual Report (Large file PDF 59.84MB), 2009 Annual Report NOTE: Large file (PDF 70.62 MB) and 2009 Annual Report Disclaimer (PDF 11KB)
· Juniper Ridge Operating Services Agreement and related documents. Use drop down menu below to select document.
· Juniper Ridge Landfill - Virtual Tour (5.22MB PDF) Developed and provided by Casella Waste Systems, Inc.
· Location of Juniper Ridge (courtesy GoogleEarth)
· Assessment of State-owned Landfill Management and Oversight - Report to the Natural Resources Committee - February 5, 2010 (PDF 3.02MB). Letters related to this report from the Town of Norridgewock received on February 5, 2010 and the City of Old Town received on February 19, 2010.
· Juniper Ridge Powerpoint - Persentation to the Natural Resources Committee, June 2010. (PDF 2.2MB)
· Maine Solid Waste Capacity Powerpoint - Presentation to the Natural Resources Committee, June 2010. (PDF 377KB)
Links:
· City of Old Town - Juniper Ridge Landfill and Landfill Advisory Committee Information
· Maine Department of Environmental Protection - Juniper Ridge Landfill
Information will be added to this website as it becomes available.
Juniper Ridge Landfill - Timeline
1989 – Maine Legislature bans new or expanded commercial solid waste disposal facilities and creates Maine Waste Management Agency to oversee future capacity development.
1994 – Maine Waste Management Agency purchases and seeks a permit for Carpenter Ridge Landfill in T2 R8 (located West of Lincoln, Maine) to be held as an undeveloped landfill site until needed in the future.
1995 – Maine Department of Environmental Protection permits Carpenter Ridge to accept special wastes.
1995 – Legislature abolishes Maine Waste Management Agency and moves many of the agency’s responsibilities to the State Planning Office.
2003 – To help reduce the paper mill’s energy costs and save jobs at Georgia Pacific/Fort James in Old Town, Governor Baldacci’s Administration negotiates an agreement that leads to the State acquiring the paper company’s landfill and makes the State’s operator responsible for providing disposal capacity and fuel wood for the mill’s biomass boiler, at below-market prices.
2003 – The Maine Legislature directs the State to acquire the West Old Town Landfill (subsequently renamed it the Juniper Ridge Landfill).
2003 – The State Planning Office seeks competitive proposals for a qualified landfill operator and awards a contract to Casella Waste Systems, Inc.
2004 – The State Planning Office and Casella enter into an operating services agreement that includes a fuel supply agreement, a cap on tipping fees, exclusions on certain wastes, and a requirement that the operator apply for additional landfill capacity by a date certain.
2004 – The Department of Environmental Protection approves the transfer of the landfill’s operating license to the State Planning Office.
2004 – The Board of Environmental Protection considers an appeal of the license transfer and upholds the decision.
2005 – An appeal of the license transfer is made to the Penobscot Superior Court.
2006 – The Penobscot Superior Court upholds the license transfer.
2006 – The State’s landfill operator, Casella, begins accepting construction and demolition debris and other in-state generated waste at Juniper Ridge.
2006 – The first amendment to the landfill’s operating services agreement is signed, delaying the date by which the operator is required to submit an expansion application.
2006 – The second amendment to the landfill’s operating services agreement is signed, assigning rights held by Fort James to Red Shield, the new operator of the mill in Old Town. Also, it allowed for the limited disposal of out-of-state generated by-passed construction and demolition debris, to permit the operator to fulfill its fuel commitment to the mill owner. However before the amendment can take effect, the State Planning Office and Casella Waste Systems, Inc. withdraw the necessary corresponding amendment to the environmental license that would have allowed disposal of by-passed construction and demolition debris.
2006 – The State Planning Office and Casella Waste Systems, Inc. submit a preliminary information report to the Maine Department of Environmental Protection, for a proposed expansion of the Juniper Ridge Landfill.
2009 – The operator of the state-owned landfill prepares an application, as required under the operating services agreement, for the expansion of the Juniper Ridge Landfill for the State Planning Office, to be submitted to the Maine Department of Environmental Protection.
2009 - The Legislature amends Maine’s solid waste management laws to remove the presumption of public benefit for state-owned disposal facilities.
2009 - The State Planning Office and its, landfill operator, Casella Waste Systems, submit an application for a public benefit determination to the Department of Environmental Protection for the proposed expansion of the Juniper Ridge Landfill
2009 – The commercially-owned and operated Pine Tree Landfill in Hampden is closed in accordance with an agreement between the Department of Environmental Protection, the Town of Hampden, and the landfill owner, Casella Waste Systems
2010 - The Department of Environmental Protection issues a draft denial on the public benefit determination for expanding Juniper Ridge. State Planning Office/Casella withdraws the application.
LaPlant-Ellis, Lana Lana.LaPlant-Ellis@maine.gov
Jan 5
to me
Hi Doug, Please see George MacDonald’s email below, referencing the statue that defines out of state waste. I have also attached a PDF file of the manifest form required for all loads that arrive at the Juniper Ridge Landfill. If you need anything further, please feel free to contact me. Thank You, Lana From: MacDonald, George
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 10:15 AM
To: LaPlant-Ellis, Lana
Subject: statutory definition for 'in state waste' Doug - Here is the definition of ‘waste that is generated within the State that was adopted by the Maine Legislature in 2007…. In Title 38: WATERS AND NAVIGATION, Chapter 13: WASTE MANAGEMENT HEADING: Subchapter 1: GENERAL PROVISIONS HEADING: §1303-C. Definitions As used in this chapter or in chapter 24, unless the context otherwise indicates, the following terms have the following meanings. (this definition is found between paragraphs ‘6’ and ‘7’ ) For purposes of this subsection, "waste that is generated within the State" includes residue and bypass generated by incineration, processing and recycling facilities within the State or waste whether generated within the State or outside of the State if it is used for daily cover, frost protection or stability or is generated within 30 miles of the solid waste disposal facility. (Here’s the link to that section: http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/38/title38sec1303-C.html
Hillary Lister Interview
Q : “O.K., I’m sitting here. I’m fortunate enough to be sitting here with Hillary Lister. Hillary have you heard about this? I guess the Bangor Daily News, did a piece on Don Meagher and ah, at the end of it, it wasn’t on him, it was on Juniper Ridge. But, at the end of it, Casella Said they were planning on suing if the State threatens to restrict the out of state demolition and construction debris coming in, because Juniper Ridge is actually nearing capacity; and they got a 30 year contract. So if it nears capacity at the 30 year contract and we actually, ah, restrict that demolition construction debris, Casella is, I guess, threatening to sue. Have you heard anything about that?”
A : “That’s the first I’ve heard of that. I mean they’ve threaten to sue other times, at hearings and stuff. But that’s the first I’ve heard in specific relation to this.”
Q : “Do you know the things they threaten to sue with?”
A : “Basically it’s any sort of restrictions on what they can bring in the past. This got brought up, maybe several years ago. I know when they were talking about just defining, ‘out of state waste,’ as out of state waste, and they said very clearly: ‘Well that went through this public process through the legislature.’ Though they’ve also said if it changes through the Legislature, they would also respect that. So, it depends on who you talk to. (Chuckles.)
Q : “O.K. I was talking to Jim Freeman. At one time, one person said to Jim: ‘That they’re filling toxic chemicals into 55 gallon drums. And they put them in on the back on containers. And they open the containers, the doors just a little bit, so it dribbles out onto the highway. Then it gets hard and it evaporates. Then it goes into the Maine Streams.’ Now I interviewed George MacDonald at the State Planning Office. He says, ‘You know, I would love, to have…’ you know, ‘…hard evidence of this. If you need to do it, contact the Maine Department of Environmental Protection.’
I just tried asking Pattie Aho…right, just a quick question: ‘Was it true that 22 years ago…” She shut me off. She goes: ‘Not during committee hearings.’ So, do you feel if someone did come up with hard evidence, and presented it to the Maine Department of Environmental Protection, they’ll would just have to do a ‘Psych-Ops,’ or ‘Psychological Operations,’ and pretend it didn’t happen? And the other question is: Have you heard stories about the 55 gallon drums?”
A : “Yeah, I originally heard about that from Nancy Oden, when they were fighting the, I think it was the Township 20 dump in Washington County back in the ‘80’s.”
Q : “You mean Township 30?”
A : “Township 30, thank you, yup. And that was the whole issue there. That in the middle of the night, there were these trucks coming up here, and there would be a whole trail behind them. And it was they had some sort of liquid waste, that basically, they were getting rid of on the way up there. She’d would be a good one to talk to on that. I don’t know, if they like document that in any form. And that happened, Umm…with the …or with the construction waste burner in Athens. There were a couple times, where there were trucks that left there with something coming out of the back that left reside slick on the road for following weeks.”
Q : “Didn’t the Department of Environmental Protection, that you know of…”
A : “People…I think a couple of people called and made complaints. But there was no way to prove anything.”
Q : “So people actually called the Department of Environmental Protection in Maine?”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “And they, the hazardous spill response team didn’t even come out and take a look at it?”
A : “As far as I know. I’d have to check for sure. But, I don’t think there was any.”
Q : “Wow! O.K.. Now are you aware that, ah, ah,..have you heard anything…Jim said about this. I interviewed Bob Duchesne from House District 13. Ah, there’s an allegation that the, ah, ah, up by in Sand Rivers, ah, the Norridgewock dump. Ah, is actually, possibly leaching into the Sand River. Have you heard anything about that?”
A : “Mill Stream, I know it had, and Mill Stream feeds Sandy River. Yeah, there was a large…”
Q : “Whoa! Did you say what river Mill Stream feeds into?”
A : “Sandy River.”
Q : “Sandy River, O.K..”
A : “Yeap. And, I mean, that was originally had the problems with the contamination when there was the dump collapse back in ’89.”
Q : “What happen with that?”
A : “That was when the dump doubled in size. When it’s built on clay, so it just sort of let go underneath that, and they had a really big dump slide, and it literally doubled the size of the dump. Up to something like 20 some acres. And that’s why they brought in Waste Management, was the company that had been managing the dump. That way, that lead to that. Which led to people…like all the surrounding farms in the area were bought out for the most part. Other than Gloria Fredricks, whose right here, but everyone else ended up moving. It ended up contaminating the wells. It contaminated the streams. That what lead to a lot of Maine Waste policy being what it is now. Ummm…It was, the company that had been running it, they were a company out of New Jersey. That was importing a massive amount of out-or-state waste. They ended up getting a lot of charges against them. Lost the right to operate the dump. Then the B.E.P., looked for someone. The only qualified company they found to handle it was Waste Management, because that’s one of their specialties, is problem dumps. (Chuckles.) And they came forward and in giving them the contract, to do that there’s a lot of concerns. So that’s when they put in the ban on new commercial dumps, or dump expansions in Maine. So that would be ‘grandfathered in.’ But, they didn’t want it to expand beyond it’s current footprint.”
Interview with Diane Messer.
Q : “So, ah, we’re going to be interviewing a few people that come in and out. Because actually the Environmental natural Resources, ah, Committee work session for January 10th 2012. Ah, Diane, ah, just a quick thing, ah. What do you think of about some of these work session, ah, these ‘L.D.’s,’ that are taking place today? At the, ah, Environmental and Natural Resources Committee?”
A : “In general?”
Q : “Well our readers probably have no clue about what’s going on and so forth. Or the one’s you plan on speaking on.”
A : “Ah, well, we’re just dealing with, I don’t have the number right here. The one on proper disposal of ‘sharps.’ Here we go, ah, 1412. Ah, There is a huge problem with it. Ah, it is hazardous waste, and it can be infectious hazardous waste, and it can be infectious hazardous waste as well. And right now there is no adequate controlling of it. Speaking from personal experience, I have had a prescription, for hypodermic needles for a prescribed medication. Ummm…I was not provided any kind of disposal container. I was proactive. Many people when faced with this situation, would have just thrown it away in the trash. I asked: ‘How do I dispose of this?’ ‘Oh, just bend the needle over, and wrap it and put it inside a hard plastic container and throw it in regular trash.’ I went to a pharmacy and I asked them to take it back. Where I purchased the needles. They refused. They said, ‘we have no provision for that.’ I went to a hospital and asked them: ‘You have a lot of hazardous waste sharps disposable here. The red boxes are all over the wall. Ummm…I was not able to get the pharmacy to take it back, that sold them to me. So, Ummm, how about right here in the hospital?’ They refused them as well. They said ah, ‘You’re just going to have to handle it yourself.’ And how is that controlling people or preventing people from throwing their sharps in the regular trash? They may not wrap it and contain it properly, before they put it in the trash. I made the attempt to do the right thing, and I was, ah, pushed away. So, here they’re talking to industry representatives, asking them: ‘How would they, offer the consumer, the proper means to dispose of it?’ They’re not being compelled to, as I understand it. I stepped out of the hearing, or actually the work session, which has morphed into, (chuckles.) a hearing more or less. Ummm…the manufactures are being asked, how they would offer to, ah, help resolve this situation. And legislature sitting on the committee, have already made very clear comments, that they believe disposal, ah, requirement for manufactures to handle it, would be flatly rejected by the Legislature. So, what are we to do? Are we going to educate citizens on the proper disposal of them, and hope that they do it the right way? Where is the responsibility by the manufactures and the medical ah, ah, community in general, to handle this? It, you know, if you’re in the hospital and they give you an injection, they take the responsibility of disposing of the used ‘sharp,’ properly. But, many of us, for various reasons, whether someone is, ah, prescribed medication that has to be injected, at home, or, ummm…it could be for any purpose. For instance, ah, ah, a diabetic has to give themselves insulin injections. Now, if someone is doing that consistently over a long period of time, they may have the wherewithal to set up, a proper disposal. Meaning if they do it long term, they’re going to have hundreds of needles a month. Depending on how often they have to inject themselves. So they will make it their business to find a proper means of to dispose of. But, ah, its being left upon the user, at this point, and, I’m not hearing a satisfactory answer. I’m hoping to be able to offer my comments in front of the committee.”
Q : “O.K., and ah, is there any possibility that some of these, ‘sharps,’ can actually puncture the liners that are in the landfills?”
A : “I’m not so sure about that. Ummm…I…Ummm…I think it might be more a matter of worker safety at that point. Ummm…the workers in the landfills, ah, handling bags and things that would spill, and trying to… I’ve never been physically in a landfill, and watching them add material, or make sure it’s all contained when it’s dumped our of trucks or containers. But, Umm, I can imagine it would be a hazardous circumstance, in certain instances, I don’t know necessarily that a sharp would puncture a line. I think that’s probably unlikely, but I don’t know for sure.”
Q : “And if, if it did leachate, ah , into the, ah, ah, the groundwater, now much of a…in your opinion, nothing official of course, how much do you think that would ‘cross-contaminate,’ into animals and humans?”
A : “Mmm…yeah. That’s another matter. Rather than actual physically the needle puncturing the liner, I think it’s much more likely, what you just mentioned. About the, ah, any contamination from the needle getting into the leachate, and thereby if their liners do frequently leak, and it could get into the groundwater. So that is another aspect of safety and health, that could be violated.”
Diane Messer is joined by Hillary Lister for a dual interview.
Q : “Hillary, are you aware of how needles can actually puncture liners in landfills and so forth?”
Hillary : “That, I mean, I know they definitely could if they got that low. The only instance I know of needles puncturing anything through, were at the Hamden dump. When they were taking them in there, they were clogging up the treads of the equipment there. And there was a guy who went out to clean out the treads and got stuck with ‘sharps.’
Diane: “ that’s what I meant about workers. I had commented earlier about a worker, actually having, umm… hazardous… ummm… interaction, with the ‘sharp.’”
Hillary : “That’s the big thing. Between there and the processing facility in Pittsfield. They had also…I mean that got shut down, for a year and a half, due to the fact that the freezers weren’t working. So they had medical waste getting warm. The, ah, ‘auto-clave,’ that melts everything together, was not reaching high enough temperatures, ah, there was not proper ventilation. They were getting more waste in, than they had storage space for.”
Q : “Do you, what year that was about?”
Hillary : “Maybe four years ago? And they shut it down I think for a year and a half. Then they opened…They did this new partnership with Maine Hospital Association, and ah…what’s it called? ‘Enviro-something, medical waste company.’ So they’re up and going again. As supposedly they don’t have the problems. But?”
Q : “Whewwshoe!! O.K., O.k…Ahh…do you folks have anything, about to say about the, the, the, this, this, ‘sharps,’ issue and so forth?”
Hillary : “I mean it’s really has become an issue, every since they closed the Hampden dump. Because when they closed the dump there, they didn’t have any alternative location to send the bio-medical waste. And most of that is coming in from our of state, through the Pittsfield facility. Umm…so, they ended up going through this whole round of…just like, emergency rules. I think first they started sending them to Norridgewock. They had no public hearing on it. Just make…made the decision, they were going to temporary send it to Norridgewock, for six months. And then once that six months came up, they had another emergency ruling, that they could send it to Old Town. Where that was not allowed at all, under the rules of the State dump, but they just amended the rules so they start taking in medical waste. And that’s currently where it’s going as far as I know. And I’m not sure if they ever…how they transitioned it from an emergency ruling into a, just a standard policy, that they take it there now, but they do.”
Q : “Wheww!”
Diane : “And we just heard from committee members, that they believe that, ah, ah, a manufactures requirement to provide containers for disposal, which makes the most sense, stop it at the head end of the situation, instead of letting it get to the end, where you already got a problem. Prevent the problem from happening. The Legislatures have said, well, they are fairly certain that it would never pass, through the legislature, a manufactures requirement for safe disposal. You know, containers, as you sell the sharps. I buy them in a plain plastic, not any kind of sealed container. A plain plastic bag. That’s how you purchase, ‘sharps.’”
Q : “And the, like you said, they don’t even give you a ways to dispose of the ‘sharps.’”
Diane : “No. And the pharmacy wouldn’t take them back. The hospital wouldn’t take them back. They said (In a ‘sneaky’ tone of voice:) ‘Oh, just break the needle over. Bend the needle over, and wrap it up and put it in a ridged plastic container and put it, in the regular trash.’ (Now in a disbelief tone of voice:) I’m serious!”
Q : “Wheww! O.K. and shifting gears. Are you folks aware of the ‘Regulatory Takings Bill?’”
Hillary : “I know it’s Pierce Atwood’s, ‘big bill,’ they’re pushed through for a while. Just to make it so there’s not really much ability to regulate land-use. But, I’m just aware it exists, and it’s out of Pierce Atwood.”
Diane : “They tried it last year.”
Hillary : “I know they tried to get it through and they really didn’t go nowhere.”
Diane : “Basically it would dissolve L.U.R.C..”
Hillary : “Which they are currently having a hearing on over there, right now.”
Diane : “I wish I could be at two places, at the same time.”
Hillary : “As I said, I’ve visited and just had time to jump over there.”
Q : “So, what’s going on in the other committee room?”
Hillary : “The reorganization of L.U.R.C..”
Q : “Which is?”
Hillary : “The Land Use Regulation Commission.”
Q : “And they’re talking about?”
Hillary : “Talking about, making it so, that it’s more focused on the natural resources economy, and servings the natural resources economy, is what they were talking about when I was in there last.”
Diane : “Economy over safety.”
Q : “O.K. and umm…my other question is…o.k. well, I got a lot of questions. But my next question is this: are you folks familiar about the test wells up in Juniper Ridge?”
Hillary : “I’ve been to some of the test wells up there.”
Q : “O.K. Now when you went up there, was some of those under water?”
Hillary : “I’ve heard about some of them being under water. I didn’t see any of them under water, when I was up there. Ummm…they were just out in the woods. I thought it was sort of strange, that there were all sorts of ‘Poland Spring,’ water bottles around there. But I figured…”
Diane : (Dramatic ‘gasp,’ of sincere shock.)
Hillary : “Something with the testing. But I have photo’s of that so.”
Diane : (Loudly exhales. Still in shock.)
Q : “So what do you mean?”
Hillary : “Large, like gallon Poland Spring water bottles sitting. Most of them empty, some of them freshly full around the test wells.”
Q : “So, let’s get this straight. They had…”
Diane : “What do you think is happening with them?”
Hillary : “That was the ‘wondering.’ If they’re doing these tests, if they need to dilute ‘whatever.’ But it could be, they need plain water to somehow do the measurements as well too. But that was a suspicious thing.”
Q : “I just got Don Meaghers’ business card. I ran into him into the men’s room. I’m like: ‘Don Meagher!’ And he’s like: ‘How’s it going?’ I’m like, ‘Have you heard about me?’ He’s like, ‘No.’ I’m like, ‘O.K.’”
Diane : “Good.”
Q : “Good. I can definitely dive in.”
Hillary : “I don’t know how much he’d know about it. But one thing I just ran into last week, is the, ‘Casella Pack.’ I think it’s the Maine economic growth pack, or something like that. Which Casella is the primary funders of, along with the Maine Alumni Association. So, that’s just….and the office is based at U Maine.”
Q : “Can you to more into detail about that?”
Hillary : “Ummm…It’s Political Action Committee funds Democrats and some Republicans and it’s basically the U Maine Alumni Association and Casella Waste Systems provide the money for it. So just in terms of finding out how you have a ‘public-private,’ partnership like that to begin with.”
Diane : “A legitimate one.”
Hillary : “Yeap.” (Laughs nervously.)
Q : “What? What…”
Hillary : “What influence that would have over the contracts between the University of Maine, and Casella. But, between them getting the pipeline contract, which was, the a, ‘no competition,’ contract. They just got awarded the ‘single stream,’ recycling contract for University of Maine. The request for proposals was written so Casella was the only company that qualified. Eco-Maine is currently challenging that award.”
Diane : “And I would like to know what assure there is with ‘single-stream,’ recycling. That the material is.”
Hillary : (Laughs.)
Diane : “I know, I know, it’s (Bovine Stool.) The public is having the wool pulled over our eyes. By being told this is facilitating more recycling. A higher percentage of percentage of recycling by doing ‘single stream.’ They’re compressing it and leaving it in blocks. And it either latter on gets stuffed in a warehouse somewhere, or it actually gets put into landfills.”
Hillary : “Yeah.”
Diane : “I mean it’s not being, most of it is not being recycled.”
Q : “So can you , can you, explain to our readers what, ‘single-stream,’ is defined as?”
Diane : “Instead of dividing the numbered plastics. Like ones, two’s, three’s, etc.. They’re all, everything. Not just plastic, but all recyclables are being. Ummm…but it is primary plastic.”
Hillary : “Well it’s also paper and glass and that’s the main issue I know with that. Because a lot of the both paper recyclers, cardboard recyclers, and glass recyclers can’t purchase the product form single stream. Because…”
Diane : “It containments. It cross-commingling contamination and they can’t accept it them. So it’s no longer recyclable.”
Hillary : “Yeap. So it’s taking stuff out of the recycling market, that could otherwise be processed, if it had stayed separated out. But it’s making it, the only thing they can do with it, is send it to the dump.”
Diane : “it’s not an accident. It’s a concerted effort, to, ah absolve manufactures from handling, the responsibility and the facilitation of more recycling. The lobbyists for the manufactures are saying, ‘We don’t want to bear this burden.’ It costs them to maintain a recyclable container procedure. And except some manufactures at this point are having to accept some containers back. So if they no longer have to, and the means mechanism by which they do this, is ‘single stream,’ recycling, they’re supporting it. And it’s ‘eye-wash.’ The public hears: ‘wooo…easy. Single stream, put it all together and it all gets recycled. Whoopie!’ They don’t realize they are being sold a bill of goods. Most of it is not getting recycled, if any.”
Hillary : “I think the big promoters of it, are companies, that depend on that waste for fuel. So, there are competing in a market where there is less waste being produced locally. They’re importing it further and further. And they are competing with each other for the waste product. So this is basically, it allows them to have more fuel.”
Q : “So, but that’s not happening at Old Town though, because they are only burning green wood. Is that correct?”
Hillary : “Old Town is now, yeah, but for landfill gas, because they are generating electricity from.”
Q : “Amazing enough, I talked to Bob Meager. (Meant to say Bob Duchesne.) and he says: ‘According to Casella, and the university of Maine of Orono, there is enough landfill gas right now to support the needs and it wouldn’t have to depend on the expansion, of the landfill.’ But the other thing I pointed to him, is because Paul McCarrier said…he talked to me about ‘Weibo’s War,’ and about Hydrogen Sulfide. According to Bob Duchesne, ah, there is not that much hydrogen sulfide.”
Hillary: “You can go right to the D.E.P. website and prove that wrong.”
Q : “Really?”
Hillary : “All of the reports are right there. There’s some very high levels of Hydrogen Sulfide. And some of the highest levels are right by the James River house. Which was land, donated when Georgia-Pacific sold the, gave the dump to the State of Maine. They also donated land to the Cerebral Palsy Association of Maine for a house.”
Q : “They donated a house, for Cerebral Palsy?!”
Hillary : “Donated a house, which is the closest residential property to the dump. And it has very high levels of Hydrogen Sulfide being measured around there.”
Q : “So it’s not being all ‘flared off,’ before they…”
Hillary : “No. but they have to give any sort of reports. And I mean, they Hydrogen Sulfide ‘burps,’ so they flare as much as they can. But it also will just, they’re have ‘gas burps,’ basically, there’s ‘gas bubbles.’ And if you go to the D.E.P. website, look at Hydrogen Sulfide monitoring data. There’s some very serious spike . In residential areas.”
At this point we have a conversation about Pattie Aho Commissioner Department of Environmental Protection, and Samantha DePoy-Warren, Spokesperson and communications Director of the Maine D.E.P.. The details have been omitted due to a change of events that made the content no longer current. The interview picks up here:
Hillary: “One thing I just wondered is, if she is still listed as a registered as a Lobbyist for Pierce Atwood…”
Diane: “Can you find out?”
Hillary: “Well she’s listed as 2011, registry Lobbyist…”
Diane: “Well, Now currently?”
Hillary: ”…On a Maine Ethics website.”
Diane: “Why don’t we challenge that?”
Hillary: “Yeah. She’s no longer for Casella, but for other Pierce Atwood Companies. She’s listed as their registered Lobbyist.”
Diane: “How can she do that as head of D.E.P.? How is that legal?”
Hillary: “I don’t know. She’s however recused herself, and it’s just old data that I’m using. I don’t know.”
Diane: “She hasn’t been recusaling herself though. I’ve listened. I’ve sat there in testimony, like you have as well.”
Q : “Can you define what recusaling means?”
Diane: “Recusaling means if you have a personal interest in an issue being handled, because of you separate ‘expertise,’ or ‘involvement,’ as a Lobbyist or a consultant. That you are suppose to, first of all, make that known, on a particular hearing or through a certain action. And then recusaling, that second step, is to excuse yourself, mean, your taking yourself outside that processing. Saying: ‘I have a personal vested interest in this issue,’ and ethics would demand that you not be involved in it, in an official capacity.”
Q : “So that’s when Jim Freeman, probably said that: ‘that she didn’t find there was any conflict of interest. Even though it’s not what the public found.”
Diane: “That’s her decision. Which means…An example of that is ‘the fox watching the hen-house.’ It’s not for her to determine whether she does or doesn’t have an interest. It’s for an independent agency to say: ‘Yes, there is a personal interest.’ Not let her do it arbitrary, but to determine ‘yes,’ or ‘no’ whether there is a conflict there. And she would be compelled to recuse herself. It shouldn’t be put on a basis of the individual, should acknowledge it, first off and then second off, should decide whether it ‘is,’ or ‘isn’t,’ a conflict.”
Q : “And there was never an independent agency or…”
Diane: “No. No. Not in this case. And I…you can add a little bit further illumination to that.”
(Note to readers here is a link about Pattie Aho Lobbyist record:
http://www.mainecampaignfinance.com/Public/Lobbyist_profile.asp?ID=4 )
Hillary: “Well, I mean, it’s just the big, like you’re saying, with the probable elimination of the State Planning Office, the ownership and the oversight is going to go to D.E.P.. So any sort of decision of whether that is a conflict of interest, lies with the people who have the conflict of interest.”
Q : “Well I did speak to George MacDonald about what type of checking is being done at the Juniper Ridge Landfill. And I guess Maine Department of Environmental Protection actually does checking, some spot checking. But Casella does the checking. And the big issues I guess was: ‘If 50% of the trash that does into K.T.I., is not recycled, even if it’s fine dust,’ that can be considered as recycled and so forth, ah…”
Diane : “Huh?”
Q : “Yeah…right. If it’s 50% of the trash that goes into K.T.I., in Lewiston, when it comes out 50% has to be recycled. If they don’t, they lose their license. And what they can also consider as recycled, is the fine wood dust that can’t be burned. So they can actually dump that into the Juniper Ridge Landfill; but it’s still considered as recycled material.”
Hillary : “That’s daily cover.”
Diane : “Yeah, I’ve heard that.”
Hillary : “Plus that and the raw construction demolition debris, both of them, use them as daily covering. It counts towards recycling and that’s the big way that Maine’s recycling rates have gone way up. Well the actual recycling centers in Maine, the amount of recycling is going down, with everything switching to, ‘sing-stream.’ But they are able to make the rates on paper go up.”
Q : “ Now can you explain what, ‘daily covering,’ means?”
Hillary : “Yeap. It just that at the end of the day, they in Norridgewock they have a big tarp they cover it with. And then they also have other materials they cover it with, just so, the materials don’t blow away, and pack it down. Ammm…for Old Town they use, (background noise took out first word. Sounds like ‘blackened.’) construction demolition debris, and the ‘fines,’ and ash, and sometimes soil.”
Q : “Now are you folks familiar with how toxic incinerator ash is?”
Hillary : “Uh-huh.”
Diane : “Oh-yes.”
Q : “Can you go into more detail for our readers?”
Diane : “You’ve got the better knowledge on that.”
Hillary : “Yeap. The best study on that actually come out of the University of Maine and totally got buried. After there was the fire at the incinerator in Athens, part of the way Borolex paid for all the problems, that they had at that incinerator, they got $600,000 worth of fines. From it was like 6 weeks long fire in the fuel pile. Along with a bunch of problems with the burner itself. One of the ways they paid the fine, was by providing the materials for a study at the University of Maine on the safety of burning construction and demolition debris.” (Chuckles.)
Q : “Was that the, ‘Borelex Study?”’
Hillary : “Borelex. Yeap. Borelex and the University of Maine. And that study showed extremely high levels of all sorts of toxins. Ammm… Dioxins, P.C.B.’s in the incinerator ash and also in the emissions. Through there are some acute parts in that study, where the levels of certain, I think that was dioxins, were far over any State or Federal standards when they measured it at one point. So, they just went back and just measured further from the stack, and then it wasn’t over those3 levels.” (Chuckles nervously.)
Q : “So, what do you mean by, ‘further from the stacks?”’
Hillary : “Like originally they said, they just determined they measured too close to the stacks. They measured like within 12 feet from the stacks.”
Diane : “If a plume is going like so, and the drift carries it away…”
Q : “And that’s and Arching motion.”
Diane : “If they measure too close to the stack. They’re in a circle, where the ash or the material that is falling is not close to them. It’s much further away.”
Q : “Are you talking about the ‘fly ash?’”
Diane : “Yea. So, like Hillary just said, they were measuring, ‘too close to the stack.’ Because the, ah, it’s being propelled out of the top of the stack, and there is a certain amount of drift, and depending on how much wind there is, it’s carrying it further away. So if they are too close to the stack, they are not getting an accurate reading.”
Hillary : “They’re saying they got…it was too concentrated so they moved further away. ‘Dilution is the solution to pollution.’ And…” (Laughs.)
Q : “Well that doesn’t make sense, because I talked to the Air Program, ah, Manager of Penobscot Nation, Bill Thompson. He says that, ‘Because it’s got heavy metal in it, it’s not going to go far.”’
Hillary : “Um-Hun. Yea, I think that is another key piece, that’s just…Penobscot nation probably the only place, the only people up there who’ve been really doing keeping any solid track compiling data, of what’s actually coming out of that stack. They’ve had their own independent air testing up there. And when it came to the ‘lead/soot,’ incident, they had back in 2006. It was Penobscot Nation that had the readings, that showed the elevated levels of lead. Otherwise…”
Q : “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! I got to back up here, because I did try to confirm that. And they said, ‘ they didn’t find any at all.’ ‘Cuz remember, you said that thing about…”
Hillary : “Yeah.”
Q : “That big cloud of soot went over Indian Island?”
Hillary : “Yeap.”
Q : “I contacted them and they said, ‘No. It went all right over to Bradley.”’
Hillary : “Bradley, yup.”
Q : “But none of it fell on Indian Island, but none of it fell on Penobscot Nation land.”
Hillary : “Well, it was wherever Penobscot Nation’s air testing equipment was. Because it was their air testing data that was used to show the levels of lead.”
Q : “Because they said, ‘they didn’t find any.’”
Hillary : “Who said?”
Q : “Bill Thompson. The Air Program, ah, Manager.”
Hillary : “I know they didn’t find it in violation of the State’s limits, but they definitely did find lead. And I can find recordings of the hearings.”
Q : “Aaaaahhhhhnnnn.”
Hillary : “But it was not over level. It’s over…”
Diane : “So, if you’re at (point) .0001 under the violation level, Ummm…they say, ‘Oh, no problem.’ Like it doesn’t exist. But you know very well, when there is an allowable range, if your at the very, very top end of it; you’ve got something to be concerned about. Even if your technically not in violation of it. You should be looking at those numbers and taking remediating steps.”
Q : “Now, are you familiar with the test site, that the Maine Department of Environmental Protection’s got for collecting air samples over in Bradley?”
Diane : (Indicates no.)
Hillary : “Not that, no.”
Q : “O.K.. O.k.. Because I guess they, they installed that after, after the 2006 soot incident. And I guess according to Jim Freeman, when David Litell was the Maine Department of Environmental Protections Commissioner, he was put on the spot. People were asking him, you know, ‘Can I grow food in my Garden?’ He’s like. ‘I don’t know.’ Or, ‘Can my kids go out and play?’ –‘I don’t know.’”
Diane : “Soil. Test the soil. Any citizen can take a sampling of their soil and have the extension services have it tested. If you have any concerns, you should do that.”
Q : “Now were you surprised how, when that big cloud of soot came over Bradley, and they scooped it out of the snow. They said, ‘well it was improperly collected, and we can’t use these samples?”’
Hillary : “Yup, yup. I remember. That was, I mean all of the personal antidotes, that people had. People had ash in from attics too that they said, it wasn’t properly collected.’ They couldn’t prove that it came from that specific incident. So, any sort of independent, stuff that people brought in, it was just dismissed as, ‘not properly collected.’”
Q : “So if I talk to say, the Town Manager of Bradley, what do you think in your opinion, they would probably say about the ‘soot ash,’ and so forth?”
Hillary : “I’m not so…I don’t know the Town Manager of Bradley, so I don’t know. Ah, Ben Pratt, who was State Representative at the time, that’s where he sort of cut his teeth as State Representative at the time. He might be a good one, to…because he was at all the hearings after that happened. Bradley was in his district he was representing at the time.”
Diane: “ Is Ben going to run for re-election?”
Hillary : “No.”
Diane : “Shucks.”
Q : “Well ah, what do you folks think of the proposed Juniper Ridge Landfill expansion proposal that’s taking place? Do you think they’re actually going to do it or do you think they might have…”
Diane : “They’re trying. They’re trying. But ah, as Hillary and I have been to the past couple of meetings the community is ‘up in arms,’ against it, and ‘fighting tooth and nail,’ against it. Whether we’re going to succeed, what’s your opinion about that?”
Hillary : “I think also there’s industry against the expansion too now. Waste Management wants to have, they have their own gill in here to lift the ban on new commercial dumps. So they can do expansion in Norridgewock, but they don’t have nearly…It’s basically one or the other, expanses in terms of the waste market right now. So, last time the Casella expansion came up, it was some of the Waste Management lobbyists who helped to block that. Because they’re trying to get their own law changed, so they could do their expansion.”
Diane : “And not so, that they’re can be concerned about the public health…”
Hillary : “No.” (Laughs.)
Diane : “But just so they can make the profit instead of the other landfill operator. Isn’t that lovely?”
Q : “It’s confusing. So let me get this straight. Ah…”
Diane: (Laughs.) They’re jockeying against each other. Ah, Casella and whose the other?”
Hillary : “Waste Management.”
Diane : “Waste Management.”
Hillary : “The largest waste management corporation in the world.”
Diane : “Yeah, so, they’re challenging, that there should be no expansion here. Not because they’re guarding the public health. But because they want to prevent their competitor from getting ahead of them.”
Hillary : “Yup.”
Q : “But Waste Management is the world’s largest dealer in Nuclear, Chemical and General Garbage, and they got a headquarters in…”
Diane : “They want more! What? What about greed do you not understand?” (Chuckles.)
Hillary : “And this whole expansion thing they want to do in Norridgewock, it’s the brother-in-law, of the manager of the Norridgewock dump, the Waste Management dump; who owns adjoining property. That he wants to sell to Waste Management, to expand the dump onto.”
Diane : “So he makes big bucks, if he sells it and if they get the expansion as opposed to juniper Ridge. Then he gets his land sold for the expansion and he makes a bunch of money.”
Q : “So do you think Juniper, ah, Casella got grounds to sue the state if they are not allowed to, ah, go forth with their expansion and their 30 year contract? Because they paid the state to the tune of $26 Million dollars to, ah, have the rights and the privilege to operate Juniper Ridge Landfill?”
Hillary : “I think if they do, that would be a great basis to counter right back and try and get the…I mean, we’re already trying to get an (sounds like O.P.E.G.A.) investigation of the state’s contracts with Casella. I think that would be just perfect time to show how they’ve change the contracts constantly violated the contracts. I don’t think it’s in their best interests to sue the state. I think it would be bad ‘P.R.,’ for them.”
Q : “Speaking of which…I’ve been trying to do some investigation. Remember that meeting you said about Don Meagher back in 2003, supposedly meet with the State Planning Office and the Department of Environmental Protection, to redefine what, ‘in-state Maine waste is.’”
Hillary : “I’m still trying track that all down. That was from a B.E.P., hearing I was at.”
Q : “Whoa! Just for the record. You said you’re still trying to track that down?”
Hillary : “Yup, I’m still trying to track down that information. That information originally came from a B.E.P. hearing I was at in 2004.”
Q : “Is that D.E.P.?”
Hillary : “B.E.P.- Board of Environmental Protection. And this was I think when they were developing their rules on burning construction demolition debris. And just at that meeting, I think it might have been the first time I met Don Meagher. He was talking about how the definition of ‘in-state waste,’ came to be. And he said that, ‘they had…’ Someone had brought up, you know, ‘at hearings.’ And he had very specifically said: ‘No, there had just been meetings between…’ Either ‘Casella and D.E.P.’ or ‘Casella and State Planning Office, to develop rules.’ And I still can’t find anything in the Legislative record, that this went through any sort of hearing process.”
Q : “Because I did ask the State Planning Office about that. They said, ‘They have no idea about it.’ I asked Bob Duchesne. He says, ‘If it’s public record, it would be in public record.’ And then I posed the message to Samantha, over at the, ah, Maine Department of Environmental Protection. (Via E-mail.) And I guess she said: “There was no question that was asked, so there’s no way I can respond to that.” How do you feel about that?”
Diane : “Sounds like it’s time for ‘F.O.I.A.’”
(Note to readers: Freedom Of Information Act.)
Q : “Oh just for the record, Pattie Aho is walking by.”
Diane : “Yes, several times.”
Q : “Several times.”
Diane : (Deep Chuckles.)
(Door to the Natural Resource Committee shuts on tape as Pattie Aho goes back into that room.)
Hillary : “Another person…Have you interviewed Tome Federally at all?”
Q : “Who?”
Hillary : “Tom Federally.”
Diane : “He’s in there.”
Hillary : “He’s one of Casella’s lead lobbyists. He’s Baldacci’s former Attorneys.”
Q : “O.K..”
Hillary : “And he was head of ‘Maine Green Energy Alliance.’ Which they had the investigation over the misuse of public funds. They had to return the money to ‘Efficiency Maine Trust.’ Umm…”
Diane : “I’ll point him out to you, if you don’t know who he is.”
Q : “I have no idea, to be honest with you.”
Hillary : “He’s a good one to ask Casella questions to.”
Diane : “Oh yeah.”
Q : “So what do you think about this, this meeting that supposedly took place, and there is no one willing to talk about it, or no one that knows about it and so forth?”
Hillary : “I mean, I think that’s sort of a key piece in all of this. Because that definition of ‘in-state,’ and ‘out-of-state,’ waste is central to the fact that we have, any of this problem to begin with.” (Chuckles.)
Diane : “One thing we do know, is that it’s being severely abused. I mean, this ‘Hocus-Pocus,’ of bringing out of state waste in and transferring it to a Maine registered truck, and saying, ‘O.K., Maine in-state waste now.””
Q : “When you said, ah, ah, ‘Maine State Waste.’ Do you think it’s possible that individuals can prove, that 50% of the recycling is not taking place. And, if that stuff is being dumped on the highway, that Casella can get their license pulled, because they’re polluting the state, and so forth?”
Diane : “That’s going to take some real investigative journalism. That’s not an easy answer. That information is being well guarded of hidden and kept from public access. You might get somewhere with ‘F.O.I.A..’ With Freedom of Information Act, and digging up some documents. But if they really want to hide it, you’re going to have to do some deep digging.”
Q : “O.K.. Let me ask you one more question. Bob Duchesne actually came up with an idea. Jim Freeman said it was probably a good idea. Ah, going to the first rest stop, where the big sign is that says, ‘Welcome to Maine.’”
Diane : “You mean, ‘Maine open for business?”’
Q : “No. Well, yeah. The ‘Maine open for business,’ right. And then actually having somebody at the ramp. And when the trucks come in, if it comes in 3 hours later, going to the ramp, chances are it didn’t go to K.T.I., and having that as proof that these trucks are not stopping at K.T.I..”
Diane : “you can set up a surveillance camera. And there’s a whole bunch of ways of doing it. But something does need to be done, because the situation is being severely abused. Everyone there knows it. Go to the hearing. Have you been to any hearings up at Juniper Ridge? The landfill expansion?
Q : “None.”
Diane : “Ah. Well, they may have another one. I’m not really sure what the schedule is. I haven’t checked it recently. But, the folks there that have been following it for a length of time, I think it’s been since what? 2005? I think that’s when the expansion began. Are well aware that, ah, this most of this waste…I don’t know percentages. I couldn’t give you a definite number, but, ah, there is severs abuse of the system. That most of this stuff is not in-state waste. They’re getting around the law. There was a law passed, how much waste from out of state would be acceptable. Because, we could…well, I won’t speculate on that. I’m sorry. But, ah, they found a way around it. They simply just transfer trucks: ‘Hocus-Pocus.’ It’s out of state waste when it comes over the state border, but they transfer it into another vehicle that has a different
contract and a different registration, and all of a sudden it becomes Maine, ‘in-state waste?’ No. No. That’s not valid. People know it, but somehow they are continuing to get around it.”
Hillary Lister Interview
Q : “O.K., and Ummm…I’m talking to Hillary about the ‘East-West Highway,’ from Calais to Coleburns Gore and she’s going to give me some details about that.”
A : “Senator Doug Thomas, whose from Ripley, he’s sponsoring a bill for the state to spend $300,000 out of the general fund, to do a study for the company, the private company, that’s going to do this private ‘East-West Highway.’” (Chuckles.)
Q : “Now is that, ah, Cianbro that’s doing it or Irving?”
A : “Cianbro or some branch connected to Cianbro.” (Chuckles.)
Q : “Now did you hear there’s going to be no exits going on that thing?”
A : “That’s what I’d heard…The first I’d heard about it was at the New England Governors and Eastern Premiers Conference. Which was in 2008, I think? And there they were talking, I, I have to find a tape to actually confirm this; but they were saying between $35 and $70 toll. They were saying specifically, just it be it a commercial straight away for the Canadian trucks. And that’s been the big push…I mean, they have been pushing for this since the 1930’s. So, I’m kinda hopeful that it’s not going through, because they have been pushing for this over and over and over for decades.”
Q : “And they we’re talking about, ah, the energy grid, going also from along the highway, and it’s going to ‘T,’ off, I think…I can’t even remember where. But someplace that began with a ‘C,’ and it’s gonna go south from there and it’s just gonna follow the ‘East-West Highway,’ so we can export all our energy. Is that what you’ve heard?”
A : “I think a lot of the, Ummm…power line expansion, some of that might end up getting used in parts. It seems like that’s paralleling some of the parts they’ve wanted to do ‘East-West Highway,’ stuff on. And then, yeah, they’ve been talking about it being on energy corridor. So it would be: highway, pipeline, power line corridor. And basically looking at…there’s a model down in Texas that they’re looking at for.” (Chuckles.)
Q : “Now I e mailed, ah, today’s January 10th. And a couple of weeks ago, I e mailed the Department of Energy, to see if I could get a response about Paul McCarriers’ statement, and Jim Freemans’ statement that; most of the energy that we are producing a lot...I mean, the wind energy, except for Rollins in Lincoln, is going out of state. And yet the Governor, which just on the radio two days ago, was saying, ‘We have high energy costs and we have to do something about it,’ pushing for more energy. What’s going on here? I mean, we’re exporting energy…”
A : “Subsidizing the rest of the North East’s electric costs is the big thing. I mean, we are, I try…”
Q : “She said ‘we are subsidizing the rest of the North East’s electric…”
A : “Yup, I mean through I.S.O. New England, Maine has a very raw deal. We have some of the highest rates of any I.S.O. New England state. And we’re one of the largest producers, if not the largest producer for I.S.O. New England.”
Q : “Now can you say what I.S.O. is for our readers?”
A : “Ohh…I’m not sure.”
Q : “Or just give a general.”
A : “Oh it’s Ummm…the public-private association of energy producers, government people. Meets in Springfield Massachusetts to determine energy policy for the North East.”
Q : “O.K., and so, basically, ah, the boiler up in Old Town, that’s produces electricity too. Correct?”
A : “It does. And most of the…”
Q : “You said, ‘yes.’ Right?”
A : “Yes.”
Q : “O.K..”
A : “And I’m sure if it still is. I’m pretty sure in the past it was receiving renewable energy credits through the state of Massachusetts. Which a good portion of both the Burners, and Wind projects up here, they’re getting subsidized through Massachusetts renewable energy credits. Because Massachusetts id buying us electricity at a premium rate.” (Chuckles.)
Q : “So how’s that work, since they’re out of state?”
A : “Ummm…it’s a whole market. It’s like a stock market, the renewable energy credit market. So, you can just purchase renewable energy credits. Each state in New England has, Ummm…renewable energy mandate. That a certain percentage of their electricity has to come from renewable resources, and increasing in amount by the year. And they measure that through the renewable energy credit. So, a certain percentage of the state’s electric has to come from certified renewable energy credit power producers.”
Q : “O.K., so basically, the Governor says we need more electricity. Even through we’re exporting a lot of energy. We got the, ah, as of this date, he still might e-mail me, but we got the Department of Environmental…I mean, the Department of Energy, not responding to the exporting of Energy. We got the ‘East-West Highway,’ that’s going to help export more energy. And basically they are asking for more wind power. Does that sound about right?”
A : “That’s about right.” (Chuckles.)
Q : “Whoa. Do you have anything more to add about that?”
A : “Just that’s the…I mean Mane is already producing anywhere from 25% to over 60% more electricity than it produces…Than it uses in State. And I can find you some confirmation on that. That’s come up by a lot of these waste hearings and this will only be increasing the amount of electricity for out of state. Maine’s just not using that much. The same way they’re importing trash. Because Maine’s not producing much trash.”
Q : “So, we’re importing trash, and, but we can’t burn at Old Town. But they can…the…(Stumbles with words.)…Oh my gosh, this is getting confusing. But are burning the green wood pellets that produces electricity.”
A : “And we’re burning trash at a lot of other facilities…”
(Committee Gavel strikes a few times in the background.)
Q : “We got to cut this short. Thanks Hillary.”
Bill Armstrong
State Senator THOMAS B. SAVIELLO : “…And in the spirit of trying to get you ‘up to speed,’ because many of us, were not…well, none of you were here, when I was here; when all this started…(Note to readers: microphone was moved and muffled out a number of words.)…Next year, and then some of you are brand new at this. So, I think that it was appropriate to kinda, get you up to speed, as best I can. Errr…on the Land fill agreement, ah, the ah, with Casella, and how the state was involved. And so this is your time. Tell us what happened.”
Bill Armstrong from the Maine State Attorney Generals Office : (Laughs into microphone.)
State Senator THOMAS B. SAVIELLO : “And I’m sure we’ll have a bunch of questions, and if there are others in the audience that might be able to answer them, we’ll ask them. But this is really part of the sprit, of what I try to do is educate you , as we get ready to deal with some interesting issues. So, why don’t you tell us who you are.”
Bill Armstrong : “I will get…I’m ah, Bill Armstrong. I’m from the Attorney General’s Office; and I’ve been involved with the Juniper Landfill ever since its acquisition in 2004.”
Bob Duchesne : (Giggles.)
Bill : “Ah, and it’s ah, obviously a living vehicle that keeps coming up.”
(A number of committee members laugh.)
Bill : “Ummm…I know we first have to start, Errr…How did the state get involved with this land fill. And I think then Governor Baldacci, one of the things he was greeted with, was the fact that Georgia Pacific was going to shut down their Fort James plant in Old Town. And so, a lot of discussions were held, which I wasn’t privy to, but any way…(Pause.) In order to help them, essentially reduce the cost of energy, it would be helpful if they could bring a ‘Bio-Mass Generator,’ facility up to Old Town. And the deal was put together, that, Ummm…the State would buy the Landfill. Ah, the purchase money would then be used to, ah, acquire, a, ah, Bio-Mass facility; which was already built, and they were going to take it apart and move it from up from the State, down South. And that the State would then hire an operator for the landfill. And according to the Legislature, adopted a resolve in 2003, Chapter 93: Authorizing the State Planning Office to buy the Landfill. Or require a hiring operator and require the operator to identify the State in for a change, for environmental matters. Ah, Ummm…that the operator would be ah, determined by a competitive bidding process; and that the resulting arrangement was to be revenue neutral to the State. So there are the parameters which in…which the State Planning Office, Ah, had set for them in trying to acquire an operator. Ah, (pause,) A, ah, a request for proposals was issued, and, ah, we only got one bidder, which happened to be Casella. Ah, other, ah, there was (Note to readers: Nest word was said fast. It was either ‘a lot,’ or ‘a large,’ or something else here.) A meeting I attended in the Cabinet room, where all the possible act…persons interested in transaction had a chance to, ah, speak, and, ah, understand the, where this was headed. And despite all that only Casella, had put in a bid. But, other venders had expressed an interest, but there were certain elements involved in the ‘R.F.P.,’ which they didn’t want to undertake for various reasons.”
Tom Saviello : “So, even if we, had, we used to call it ‘middle of pre-payers conference.’ Where you kind of went through the parameters where the contractor of the proposed…where you had that kind of…”
Bill : “It wasn’t formally called that. In fact I was called to this meeting, kind of ‘cold.’ But that was my sense at that meeting and what was explained, what was going on here.”
Tom Saviello : “So they did explain that the four…”
Bill : “Yes.”
Tom Saviello : “…Pieces here…”
Bill : “Yeah, there was, was a general understanding…”
Tom Saviello : “That other people might be interested…”
Bill : “Right.”
Tom : “…In proposed buying or being involved in this that were at that meeting.”
Bill : “Yeah. (Short Pause.) And some of the…And some of thee requirements, that were now requested for proposals were : 1) You had to operate the Landfill. 2) You had to identify the State, as well as Fort James, for all past, present and future environmental liability. Ah, 3) You’re going to have to enter into a ‘fuel supply agreement,’ for the Bio-Mass facility. Ummm…and the fuel is to be construction and demolition debris; At a much marked down market price. Ummm…Let me get, get (Note to readers: Papers were being shuffled and obscured a word.) here. (Clears throat with sort pause.) There would be some, some of the tipping fees would be…would be, ah, limited; and that was negotiated. In addition there, there was an agreement between Fort James and Lincoln for disposal of their ash. And thee operator was going to be required to assume that contract. Ahmm…(short pause.)
So, there, there were/was sort of keys to what any operator would have to do and it was quite an undertaking to put in a proposal. At thee end of the day, ahmmm, and if the negotiations it turned out that the, ah, the ( Note to readers : inaudible word here. It sounded like ‘including.’) bid was to pay $26 million dollars for thee, ah, right to operate the plant. In exchange for that: they were given full operational control. Ah, they were to keep all the income. They were to pick up all thee expenses. The $26 million dollars was paid to Fort James. Which in turn bought them a Bio-Mass facility and moved it up to Old Town. So one of thee key elements of thee, ah, ‘R.F.P.’ Legislatures plan was put into effect, essentially. Ummm…
It’s important to note too, that the negotiations were essentially, tripartite. There was the State, there was Casella and Fort James. And those negotiations went on quite a while, over several days. So, (clears throat.) there were two agreements being negotiated, one an acquisition agreement, whereby the State would purchase the Landfill; and two, there was the operating services agreement with Casella. And if you look at those two agreements, you’ll see they more or less, they fit together. So, the promises the State made in the acquisition agreement were carried over into the operating services agreement.
So there are a number of other details in the contract if you want to know about them, I can answer, answer questions about them, but…” (Note to readers: inaudible mix of words here.) “…There was thee purchase price. The fixed tipping fee for Fort James, for their waste. Ah, and then a tier tipping fee depending on the amount of waste that was put in there. Ah, they assumed the Lincoln disposal agreement. Which, ah, they’ve agreed to take up to 600,000 tons per year. And there was a capacity credit given to Fort James for any year which they didn’t use the limit, that they were (Pause) they were put on there for disposable waste. Ah, (Pause) the…then Fort James and Casella negotiated separately, a fuel supply agreement. Which included a provision of construction demolition debris. After there wasn’t enough of that available. Then they could provide an alternative fuel; which was suppose to be wood…green wood chips.”
Tom Saviello : “Did they set a price on that?”
Bill : “Ah, the price was…the price was essentially transportation costs.” (Laughs.)
Tom Saviello : “So, ( Note to readers : Bill’s laughing or chuckling with that saliva sound drowning in his mouth to it, obscured a few words here.) they based it on…”
Bill : “Yeah.”
Tom Saviello : (First words inaudible here.) “…Casella…”
Bill : “Right.”
Tom Saviello : “…I think one rate for that was about, I think about ten or twelve thousand per month for C.D.D….”(C.D.D.-Construction and Demolition Debris.)
Bill : “Yeah.”
Tom Saviello : “And about 30 a ton for green waste…”
Bill : “Right.”
Tom Saviello : “…Green wood.”
Bill : “Yeah...” (Note to readers, two words following didn’t sound like real words. It sounded like: “ABBA DAB.” Which could have been: “About that.”)
Tom Saviello : “So the agreement they said, “We will pay…”
Bill : “Trans…”
Tom Saviello : “…To get your trash there.”
Bill : “Yeah, we will pay transportation mode.” (Chuckles.) “That’s what I’m getting at.”
Tom Saviello : (First words inaudible, then cut to:) “Do you know tons they were asking for? Was that…”
Bill : “It was a 100,000. I believe it was a 100,000. Yup. (Long pause.) And a critical piece, as I indicated earlier was, the identification provision; because as we are all familiar with, environmental liability can be huge at these sites. And Casella was required to identify and carry insurances, Ah, against some environmental liability. Protecting not only the State, but also Fort James/ Georgia Pacific.”
Tom Saviello : “So, they took it back to…”
Bill : “They…They…”
Tom Saviello : “The first day, the way Waste Management brokered it.”
Bill : “They just right. Yup. Yup.” (Note to readers : Pause and shuffling of papers here.) “I just got to check my notes here. Ah, another, another, important piece of the agreement was: that there was to be no price discrimination, ah, by Casella on tipping. In other words, whatever Casella affiliates brought to the Landfill, they would be charged the same price as everybody else who brought waste to the Landfill. Ahmmm…the other important provision that, ah, the people have talked about, is whether or not, additional fees could be imposed on Casella. And the understanding was, that they would pay fees for disposable waste, just like everybody else in the State and no additionals. That they wouldn’t be ‘singled out,’ because they are taking a particular type of waste. Which is consistent with the way most of the Legislation is drafted; and they have been paying fees over the years, yeah.”
Tom Saviello : “Senator Goodall has a question.”
Bill : “Yes.”
Seth Goodall : “I’m after a pacific point. Where does that say, Ummm…where is that stated in the contract?”
Bill : “It’s in section…”
Seth Goodall : “Is it an understanding, or…”
Bill : “Section 4-G. No it’s in the contract.”
Seth Goodall : “O.K..”
Bill : “Yeap, yeah.”
Seth Goodall : “I actually printed out the whole contract, so.”
Bill : (Chuckles.)
Tom Saviello : “He’s a Lawyer, and he likes to read almost everything.”
(Bill Armstrong and Bob Duchesne Laughs.)
Tom Saviello : “After the first 30 pages, I was sound asleep. I tried to read the next 5, and I said, ‘I’ll just leave it to him.’”
Bill : “Yeah, yeah, yeah.”
Tom Saviello : “4…” ( Note to readers : Inaudible here.)
Bill : “4-G.”
Tom Saviello : “Well, you’ll look for me; given that you stated the request.”
Seth Goodall : “Oh, yeah.”
Bill : (Laughs.)
Unidentified voice : “Ah, suppose there is no 4-G, and that they…”
Bill : (Shuffling papers.) “I’m sorry, I’ll find it in here. Let me look for it. What am I looking for? Well, here’s two…(Long pause and more papers being flipped through.) Find it, thank you. 31. There was an only reason…as I was getting to. So, page on page 21. Yeah, thanks George.”
Tom Saviello : “You’re a good man George McDonald.”
(Pause.)
Bill : “So that, provision states that the tipping fees…which were mentioned earlier, …’excludes of any fees, charges, levees, or assessments, which may be imposed by the State after the date, for the disposal at Landfills.’ In a sense, it probably could have been clearer, but the understanding was: there wouldn’t be any additional fees; just because they happened to be operating a State based landfill.”
Seth Goodall : “That would have been at ‘2-11,’ you said?”
Bill : “It’s on page 21 of the Operating Services Agreement.”
(Long pause.)
Seth Goodall : “Where were you…what subsection?”
Bill : “G.”
(Pause.)
Seth Goodall : “Yeah. (Pause) That wouldn’t included us through. That wouldn’t necessary include us from any additional fees. Whether those specific to Juniper Ridge or across the…”
Bill : “No, that’s correct, correct. Yeah, you could impose fees for all Landfills. They would be, then Casella would be required to.”
Seth Goodall : “But as a market participate, why couldn’t we assess a specific fee…” (Note to readers : Someone sneezed and blocked out a word and the rest sounded like:) “…Instead of registrating and entering in that window.”
Bill : “I’m sorry. Say that again.”
Seth Goodall : “If…since we are a market participate, we own the Landfill, under the Interstate Commerce Laws. And even in light of the contract, we could still assess the fees, pacifically on waste entering that Landfill. Couldn’t we? Why would we be precluded?”
Bill : “Why, I don’t know that I know the legal answer. But, I’m just…quickly it might be considered some kind of discrimination against…(pause) against the operator. Since the operator here is going to be required to pay a fee.”
Seth Goodall : “But, since we own that (note to readers: here is an inaudible word.) Landfill, how would that be…”
Bill : “I don’t know that the fact that we own the Landfill makes a difference. (Pause) It’s still, It’s still being operated as a Landfill, under the same rules and regulations as every other Landfill in the State. I mean, except for the fact that the State owns it, Casella has to comply with all the environmental rules. And had applied for the State a Compliance License. Because, Casella has to comply with other conditions. So in that respect, It’s no different than any other landfill.”
Seth Goodall : “So since we’re…Errr…(Sound of papers flipping.) are you saying that, ‘since we are…’ just because we are the owner of the landfill, you’re saying that, are…’just because we are the owner of the landfill, you’re saying that, are…we don’t have any…right to. To potentially manage that landfill differently and other landfills in the state?”
Bill : “As a contractual matter we may; but right now we have a contract with Casella with this provision in it.”
Seth Goodall : “but under our Sovereign immunity, can’t we…ah, override that contract? (Pause.) and that’s one of the questions, that’s come up, time and time again, during see…conversations.”
Bill: “Well, after I’m done with this question, I’ll try to answer whether you can…(Chuckles.) whether that would impair this contract. I mean this is a commercial contract, the State just happens to be a party to it.”
Seth Goodall : “Sure, but wasn’t that answered decided though, in the ‘Car Test Case,’ of the 90’s? We have the ability to…”
(A female near a committee microphone laughs.)
Seth Goodall : “…Over…(quick pause.) ride contracts? I mean this is the heart of what sort of conversations we’ve had.”
Bill : “You have the ability, Yes, theoretically.”
Seth Goodall : “Well, (Pause.) I mean, under, (Pause.) the fact, I mean, Sovereign immunity with the State was specifically contemplated in the contract. Under one of the sections.”
Bill : “Well, (Pause.) yeah, you’re right. Sovereign Immunity, has been preserved, under this contract. But, in a ‘contract world,’ as of course looked at it, and they have recognized that in Maine, that you…Errr…, ah, of private vendors enters into an agreement with the State, at risk; ‘cuz the Legislature now at any point may withdrawal funding. Unless, of course, that a contingency is covered in a contract; and what they are going to, is this provision, we’ve addressed that issue, as to ‘additional fees.’ (Pause.) So you would actually be impairing this contract. Now this is just my ‘off the cuff,’ opinion.”
Seth Goodall : “Sure.”
Bill : “Yeah, Ummm…impairing that contract, if you suddenly…If there was a decision today, ‘we’re going to impose fee, on a State owned Landfill…’ that would influence, no doubt, any vendor who said, ‘Now wait a minute…if I’m going to do business with the State, I may have to look hard at that.’”
Seth Goodall : “No, of course. I mean…”
Bill : “Right.”
Seth Goodall : “…this is why you’re here, so.”
Bill : “But, I mean that be an admen…that would require an amendment to this contract. If you’re going to do that, I think.”
Seth Goodall : “So, since you, ah, pointed out to the amendment, (Pause.) the two of them that have been signed. The amendment that was signed, the second amendment, Ahmmm…the language in that differs from what, (pause.) that …how would you, the intent, of the underlining operating service agreement? Meaning, you articulated that the underlining Operating Service Agreement, talked about supplying the Mill with, ah, ‘C.N.D.,’ to burn. But that second amendment, actually specifically, talks about, Ummm…expanding ‘C.N.D.,’ processing facilities… (Note to readers: Obscured words here. It sounds like ‘In Hamden.’)…the mill doesn’t need it. Ummm…Casella can continue to, ah, process ‘C.N.D.’ in the state. Could you explain how the history behind the amendment; how they came about, and what the rationale is, similar to how you explained how…”
Bill : “ I, I, I don’t recall that offhand. No.”
Seth Goodall : “So, you weren’t part of that amendment?”
Bill : “Well, I saw the amendment, but I don’t recall the negotiations…or when…I wasn’t involved in the negotiations, or went into that one…no.”
Seth Goodall : “Alright.”
Senator Tom Saviello : “In the, ah, agreement, how was the amendment latter, the, Ummm…let me get this right…Red Shield was…were the energy was going to be provided to…My understanding is that, there was not…when they were going to burn, but the Boiler was the cost. The Boiler they got to burn the ‘C.N.D.’…”
Bill : “Right.”
Senator Tom Saviello : “…So there was an agreement to bring it in…to bring it to this boiler. Boiler never made ‘mustard.’ But, there still was the agreement, that says: ‘They were going to bring that fiber in to be burned there. And, when they thought it could be burned.’ Because my understanding, that there wasn’t enough ‘C.D.D.,’ material created in the State of Maine, that would meet the requirements of 100,000 tons that you described.”
Bill : “That’s my understanding; and that’s why there was a provision for an alternative fuel to be brought in. Alright.”
Senator Tom Saviello : “George, I think you know that the…”
Bill : “George knows all this.”
Senator Tom Saviello : “…If I may just have you…for this particular question. (Pause.) My understanding is, that there’s about 100,000 tons of , Ummm…material processed, ‘C.D.D.,’ that was going to be allotted to be burned, and we didn’t have enough of that currently generated in the state. Is that correct?”
George MacDonald : “Correct. Ah…George MacDonald, State Planning Office, in response to the question. There was enough raw ‘C.D.D., available in the State that Casella could access to produce the 100,000 tons of ‘C.D.D. fuel wood,’ anticipated through the agreement.”
Tom Saviello : “I’m sure we’re have more questions for your testimony. You’re very credible. I just wanted to be clear on that.”
(Either Bill or George chuckle.)
Tom Saviello : “And he’s perfect for that.”
George MacDonald : “Yes, thank you.”
Tom Saviello : “I just…Representative Duchesne.”
Representative Bob Duchesne : “Thank you, ah, Senator. Bring this back to the feed bill that’s in front of us. Which is the reason for the discussion. Ah, we heard from the truckers…They’re really concerned that if we pass fee’s, they’re going to get burned by this because they’re going to be, (pause,) unable to compete with Casella and it’s, Ummm…and it’s other, Ummm…entities. Ummm…because they would have a, a, market capacity, ah, to, ah, be able to offer, Ummm…cheaper disposal. So, they feel that they’ll be at a disadvantage. The contract says, that, Ummm…’Casella can’t price, or discriminate on price or entry.’ They don’t believe it. I’m trying to test it. (Laughs.) To see whether, this is really an enforceable part of the contract. So, let me ask you a couple of things about that. Ummm…page 13 of the contract, says, ‘No price of entry discrimination.’ That’s pretty clear. (Short Pause.) Also the contract and the amendments reference, a processing facility somewhere in the State. Where all the imported waste is going to come to this facility. It’s going to process fuel out of it and then the reside is going to go to Juniper Ridge. So, they’re intertwined. The question, I guess I have is, can…(short pause.) The operation of K.T.I., and CAs…and the landfill together, price discriminate of cause entry discrimination. Ummm…could you, raise your fees so high at Juniper Ridge, that it’s cheaper, normally to take it to K.T.I., but they can price discriminate, legally?”
(Pause, and then Bill laughs, then Bob Duchesne laughs.)
Bill : “Yeah, I’m not so sure I know where your…or, understand where you are going with that. I mean, we’re talking with the price…the price discrimination obviously, with Casella is the tipping fee itself.”
Bob Duchesne : “The tipping fee and the Landfill.”
Bill : “The tipping fee, not the Landfill.”
Bob Duchesne : “What I’m saying is, could these work together in such a way, that the truckers are right? There could be discrimination that would not, Ummm…be legally challenge-able?”
Bill : “I don’t know the answer to that, no.”
Bob Duchesne : “So that, perhaps if you had a reason to be nervous, I mean, I, I, I’m thinking of the different scenarios. Ummm…on how this could happen. Ummm…Casella says that, ah, because of these fee’s our costs have gone up, we’re going to have to pass this onto our customers than we normally would. So, the fee’s that they’re charging the truckers goes up. Ummm…goes up even more than what they are charging themselves. How would we know? How could you enforce that? Do we track price? Do you…Is there anything…It’s part of the contract.”
Bill : “It’s part of the contract. How the price is set.”
Bob Duchesne : “How would we know? (Chuckles.)”
Bill : “Right. With an escalator clause.”
Bob Duchesne : “Yeah.”
Bill : “That’s in the contract...”
Bob Duchesne : “Yeah. MM-Hun.”
Bill : “…with the tipping fee. That’s correct.”
Bob Duchesne : “So, ahmmm…the operation of K.T.I., and Juniper Ridge Landfill; is such that they are offering themselves a lower price, but it just doesn’t show up, in a way that’s legally enforceable, because part of that is involving K.T.I.. I’m not still making that clear, am I?”
Bill : “No, I don’t think so.”
Bob Duchesne : “No.” (Chuckles.)
Bill : (Chuckles.)
Tom Saviello : “Let’s try again.”
Bob Duchesne : “Let me back up and take another running start.”
Bill : (Deep chuckles.)
Bob Duchesne : “Ummm…the concern for the truckers is, these two entities work jointly. Ah, waste comes into either one of these facilities. The tipping price is about the same at K.T.I., as it is at Juniper Ridge. But, Ummm…Let’s say the price now goes up. Because Juniper Ridge has to make up thee, oh…what they were, ah…thee, Ummm…the additional…ah, revenue they are losing, because of the new solid waste fee’s we put in place, and they pass that onto the truckers. They can’t get a price break at K.T.I., the way Casella’s customers could. Ummm…so they do end up ‘swallowing it.’ Is that, discrimination, out of this contract? (Pause.) Oh, don’t make me try a third time.”
Bill : “No. I won’t make you try a third time.”
Bob Duchesne : “Maybe, I might…yup.”
Bill : “It’s…”
Tom Saviello : “Let me try.”
Bob Duchesne : “Try, yeah.”
Tom Saviello : “O.K., we’re, we’re talking about putting a dollar fee / tipping, ah, tipping fee on any ‘C.D.D.,’ that goes from processing residual that goes to a Landfill, period. Which would meet the contract obligation here, that’s for everybody. They have K.T.I., which is not the Landfill, so they have to eat the dollar up here. But, what they could do, is to make up the difference is, raise the price at K.T.I., a dollar…”
Bill : “Mm-Hun.”
Tom Saviello : “…To say, and so, it is…so, the question that I think Bob, was asking is, ‘Is that discrimination or is K.T.I., out, out of the picture,’ if I said that right.”
Bob Duchesne : “Almost, though, go the opposite direction. Actually, they raise the price at Juniper Ridge, but lower the price at K.T.I., where they can discriminate. They can say: ‘I’m sorry, your waste doesn’t, doesn’t have enough good stuff in it, we won’t take your waste. But, we’re take an identical load from Massachusetts and have them pay a lower price for it. They can discriminate there, in a way, that they can’t at Juniper Ridge, because of the way they support them together. And…”
Bill : “Well, it’s working together in your scenario, but contractually, it’s not working together as a separate entity down there.”
Bob Duchesne : “Mm-hun. So, even though, the contract that thee…the operating services agreement…”
Bill : “Right.”
Bob Duchesne : “…Contemplates that these facilities will exist and will operate in concert. They are not captured by the language in the ‘O.S.A.’” (Note to readers: O.S.A. could mean Operating Services Agreement.)
Bill : “I would say they are not captured.”
Bob Duchesne : “The price…”
Bill : “That’s right, they are not captured by it. No.”
Bob Duchesne : “O.K.. I’ll probably return to that after.”
Tom Saviello : “O.K.. I, I, I do want to go back to…a comfortable in…to put this…I want to go back to something, that I want to make sure I’m comfortable with, quickly…”
Unidentified Voice : “Right.”
Tom Saviello : “The agreement was for 30 years. Correct?
Bill : “ Yes.”
Tom S : “So, even though the landfill capacity at the time of the agreement was signed, did not pay for the 30 years.”
Bill : “I…yeah.”
Tom S. : “They had…”
Bill : “The license capacity at the time of the contractors had not get ‘em out to 30 years. That’s right.”
Tom S : “So, if they had some…there’s some…they took this agreement with the state with the idea of, they’re probably going to be licensed be able to get licensed eventually for 30 years.”
Bill : “Yes. And the contract does, errr…under….contemplated an application to expand the capacity.”
Tom S : “And it did, I think, soon after they did expand the capacity at the one time; and then, there’s a pending application that’s presently out these. Is that correct?”
George Mac Donald : “The landfill originally was permitted for somewhere around 30 million cubic yards, 3.3; and there was an amendment to increase that capacity, early on the process.”
Tom S : “I see. And there was another one that was out there, that is pending…that has been temporally turned down turned down…or turned down, or…”
George Mac Donald : “There is a public determination application, ah, waiting for the departments review.”
Tom S : “O.K.. And there was a…there’s also ‘host community payment,’ that takes place; as part of this agreement.”
Bill : “Yeah. There’s two host community benefits agreement. One with Old Town and one with Alton. That they’re…that…they’re fulfilling.”
Tom S : “Do you know what that amount to?”
Bill : “I do.” (Good size pause, while papers are being flipped right next to tape recorders microphone.)
well, since 2004, with the City of Old Town, they’ve paid 7.6 million dollars; and Alton they’ve paid, ah, roughly $488,000.”
Tom : “Is that on going?”
Bill : “Well, this is a total over the years. Thee…is a …fee imposed, on…based on disposed of amounts. (Long pause.) and in addition to that, they’ve, you know, they would, they’ve made land…property…they brought some property up there. For their neighbors of the landfill wanted to sell it. And they’ve bought some bottled water for people who wanted water.”
Tom : “Is that an agreement; or did they do that on their own?”
Bill : “I think it was a obligation of the State, that they picked up.”
George Mac Donald : “That’s outside the…”
Bill : “Yeah, it’s out. It’s outside the contract.”
Tom : “It’s outside the contract?”
Bill : “Yeah…So, over all those, those various expenses, well as a special waste that they’re paying on waste,; like everybody else. They’ve put in over the total of over 15 million dollars, in addition to the 26 they’ve already paid.”
Tom : “And are they putting money away in escrow now for closure and other potential liabilities? Is that, being charged to them now, or is that…”
Bill : “And that would be…That’s part of the license with D.E.P..”
(Long Pause.)
Tom : “Other questions? Representative Duchesne.”
Representative Bob Duchesne : “Thank you Senator. I’ll take another run down from a slightly different angle. If I could do any better than I did last time. ‘Amendment B,’ ah, page 2, Errr…section 6A. ‘Casella agrees to exercise commercial and reasonable efforts to use Maine C.D.D.’ It’s not happening. They, other waste that would end into Lewiston, ah, and 11% was from Maine, the rest was from out of State. Ah, when we, probed this last time, in our last work session. Casella says, ‘They would love to get more Maine waste.’ Then we asked the truckers, the truckers say. ‘they won’t take it, because we’ve already removed some of the recycled content…contents…ah, So we have to take it up to Juniper Ridge.’ When you, when ah, grill the truckers further, Ummm…the substitution is that the waste that’s coming across the border, is identical to what’s coming from the local Maine haulers. That some of the content has already been removed down in Massachusetts too. In essence, the two wastes are identical, but they’re telling Maine, they won’t take it; they’re telling Massachusetts they will. Is that discrimination? You know, they’re using their , (very short pause.) subsidiary to do, ah…what they can’t do at Juniper Ridge, discriminate.”
Bill : “Under the contract, no.”
Representative Bob Duchesne : “It’s not discrimination?”
Bill : “No.”
Representative Bob Duchesne : “Right.”
Bill : “I say..got…you get rid of…you’re going to try. (Note to readers: multiple people laugh distorting next set of words.) Yeah…Is there any way we can bring the other one in here, but I don’t think we can do that.”
Representative Bob Duchesne : “O.K.. So, what I’m trying to establish is, is it possible, for discrimination, and price discrimination to happen, within the construct of what we have in the state right now in the contract, and the answer appears to be…’yeap.’ And if it is possible, how does it happen?”
Tom : “Senator Goodall.”
Senator Seth Goodall : “One of the issues that have come up, from time and time again is, the issue of where the contract is silent; and since we own the landfill. –The State of Maine. What ability do we have to regulate it, ahhh…uniquely different from other landfills in the state? Since we are a market participant, you know, under the Commerce clause, since we’re the landlord in that aspect. What can we do to, ahh…require the operator of the landfill to do certain things?”
Bill : “Well, I guess the first thing you can do is to be able to look at the (Note to readers sounds like “Stationatory,” but I could be a real word that sounds similar.) authorization for the state to acquire the landfill, and then what parameters you put around that. Once you’ve put that in place, then that would be the subject of negotiation…and then any vender would have to comply with those. That would put contra…There’s two acts that would be legislation; plus thee contractual elements…(Pause.) that would put in place. And depending on what you propose, which I couldn’t…you know, there probably be some question about whether you were capable of doing something on the Legislative end.”
Senator Seth Goodall : “Ah, one of the issues that are contemplated is looking for, respectively in regards to, what Ummm…how the key structure of…(Note to readers: microphone interference here.) …in regards to, of accepting waste there. I mean, we have a not too…( Note to readers: next two words sounds like ‘Seave rate.’ or 'Succeed -rate,') … on some of the...Ahhh...one of the issues, that have come forward, time and time again is, (Note to readers, microphone does not pick up well her. cuts to:) And many argue on whether there, around this horseshoe…(Note to readers, Seth maybe referring to the configuration of the Committee charis are set up around their tables; and another note to readers: sneeze near microphone obscured next word.)…Industry,
the lack of (Note to readers, next word sounds like either ‘plore,’ ‘floor,’ or ‘poor,’) has altered the marketplace. Ummm…therefor we have the responsibility as Legislatures to try to address going forward, in some form or fashion. Some say, ‘That if you charge fee’s that that, (note to readers few words that follow were too fast to translate.)…across the board, we could change, or fix that market eventually.’ Others say that, ‘Why don’t we just address, Ummm… the issues specifically, at Juniper Ridge.’ How do you respond to that?”
Bill Armstrong: “So, those would be, because it’s a State owned Landfill? You’re going to set different…You’re going to set particular rules and apply for that, including some fee arrangement.”
(Pause.)
Seth Goodall: “Correct.”
Bill Armstrong: “Well, you may be able to do that. But the question would come: ‘Are you going to find an operator under those circumstances?’ I mean, you’re…When (Note to readers: next single word is inaudible.)…a commercial market, you’re going to be a player in the commercial market. Means, you have to get a proposal out there and some, ( Note to readers next single word is inaudible.)…is suppost to bid on. If it’s two owners, why would anyone want to operate the landfill?”
Seth Goodall: “Right, that’s…that’s obviously the original take.”
Bill Armstrong: “The other, (Note to readers, next word sounds like: ‘al to shure,’ or ‘off to sure.’)…Would be the State decide they would want to operate the landfill.”
Seth Goodall: “Very true.”
Bill Armstrong: “Right.”
Seth Goodall: “But, we as also, have a responsibility to try and regulate the solid waste deal, in the best interest of Maine. So, what’s the deal of that potentially, Ummm…the lack of consideration of certain components of the contract, have created, as I said, an excellent one comes to mind, at least, that they might want to try and slow down, that results…”
Bill Armstrong: “Right.”
Seth Goodall: “Filling up our air space, at a fast rate. Do you believe…that’s kinda, (Note to readers, next set of 2 or 3 words are inaudible.)…decision we follow.”
Bill Armstrong: “True, but that’s the policy of the decision. I can’t re-write any…how you want to…How you want to impact the market for waste…waste disposal in Maine. A decision was made a long time ago, that in one way to impact the market was not to permit any more commercial landfills. So, you put itself in this position that you’re describing, by describing that. If you want to alter that market that…that would be one change. That dynamic you’re…you’re have to live with I suppose.”
Seth Goodall: “What would happen in regards to the contract, if you went in and changed the definition of, ‘out-of-state’ waste?”
Bill Armstrong: “So that?...”
Seth Goodall: “So that it would have, some would argue, to have an material impact on the State.”
Bill Armstrong: “Because it would adversely affect their ability to operate the landfill successfully.”
Seth: “Alright.”
Bill Armstrong: “I expect we’ll get a phone call about re-negotiating a contract. (Pause.) I don’t mean to be cynical, but if I’m Casella, and the contract has certain divisions about, you know, State wide decisions that may impact…impact their operation, will be looked at, I can’t go on without looking, but that was something that was recognized when we were negotiating the contract. But it’s conceivable that the State could decide to do something that would adversely affect their ability to comply with the terms of the contract.”
Seth: “Or…a system complying, or a system in there, operational facilities in Maine as of June 2007 by changing those definitions about out of State waste. I mean it could go both ways, is my point.”
Bill Armstrong: “Right.”
Seth: “Yeah.”
Senator Tom Saviello: “In the agreement in 2007, also looks at their…Red Shield was in the picture…can…came in the picture, a deal agreement was in…had to be transferred. Is that two thousand and…”(Note to readers: Tape recorder microphone is right next to Bill Armstrong. Hence, when bill cuts off Tom Saviello, what Tom Saviello continues to say cannot be picked up on the recording.)
Bill Armstrong: “Theirs is separate. There’s…there is a few fuel supply agreements at the moment. One, was with Georgia Pacific and the second was with Red Shield when they came on.
Tom Saviello: “Didn’t they also create a sort of, then agreement that would automatically block…(Note to readers: Next word was either obstruction or destruction.)…to the new owners, the patriarch…I mean that, that agreement had to be transferred, isn’t that part of, one of those things, that…that recognizes that was a…a transferable item.”
Bill Armstrong: “Yeah, the…the Casella would, Yeah. I mean, no matter who the owner was, Casella is going to enter into a fuel supply agreement.”
Tom Saviello: “Currently, are they providing fuel to, ah part they care, under the agreement? What are they paying to the patriarch?”
Bill Armstrong: “I don’t know.”
Tom Saviello: “I think it’s a million dollars a year.”
Seth Goodall: (Note to readers. What was said was way too fast to translate up until) “to know a specific question…about that? Is that…and, I don’t know that answer. Is that an obligation under the contract? Do they pay that or no?”
Bill Armstrong: “No, the obligation…the obligation was to meet the fuel requirements of the…(Note to readers: last word in the sentence was too obscured to understand.)…Pegged at 100,000 tons a year.”
Seth: “So, (very short pause.) their agreement to pay, rather than supply the wood is something separate outside of the contract.”
Bill Armstrong: “Yes, but that, as I said, that contract is between Casella and…and Red Shield. And Red Shield had some rights. Obviously they were a third party beneficiary of the operating services agreement. But, they can decide, they don’t want to do that anymore and negotiate something different with Casella. I don’t think that defeats the purpose of the contract. As you know, the contract was to get low cost energy to Old Town; and if that hasn’t worked out, for whatever reason, the Parties have to, you know, make some other arrangement according to the, the facility.”
Seth: “Perhaps switching gears would be…” (Note to readers: next few words inaudible to ‘pick up.) “…this is going to be a valuable exercise whether it’s focusing on Juniper Ridge or whether or not moving forward are two different…or top compatibility if there is, Ummm… at this point it might surprise for compatibility as well Ummm…there’s an example: under the contract Casella is suppose to be using it’s best efforts depend itself to promoting the hierarchy we have in this state. Ummm…some would argue that…that may not be occurring, as a result of Ummm…the way waste maybe going in there. So at what point, do we have a responsibility to…” (Note to readers: next word was either literally, essentially or naturally.) “…step in and make sure that doesn’t occur?”
Bill Armstrong: “Well, I’d say we have the responsibility now. I’m not, obviously involved what kind of waste in going in there, so that would be something they can explain and to look at, yeah.”
Seth: “So, if we determine that, the way the waste stream is going in there, are not in the best interest of the hierarchy…what are our options to correct them? In your in your opinion.”
Bill Armstrong: “Well, my opinion is, we would have to talk to Casella and try to foresee how to enforce those obligation and alter the way they manage their waste…yeah.”
Seth: “Which would include…”
(Pause.)
Bill Armstrong: “Well, there’s no provision in the contract for sanctions, when say they are, in breach of the contract. That’s…way down the road before you, figure out, that in fact, they haven’t complied with that term.”
(Long pause.)
Tom Saviello: “Representative Duchesne.”
Bob Duchesne: “Thank you.”
(Note to readers: Bill Armstrong said something totally unrecognizable. It was as if he started to say something but stopped to let State Senator Tom Saviello talk.)
Tom Saviello: “”…and how you are going to address this committee on planning this...”
Bob Duchesne: “Yeah.”
Tom Saviello: “…is interesting of not. I don’t want to waste your time on this. But I’m trying to get you all on the same page. So, you know, everything that’s buried on the same page, I antipate that might come up.”
Bob Duchesne: “Yes, thank you Senator. You may read the contract that this is answering some questions, that I couldn’t get my arms around either. It’s entry some discrimination in price and stuff, but you know, according to Senator Goodall’s point: ‘Casella has agreed to support a hierarchy,’ yet there’s a lot of opponents who have concerns that a lot of, oversized bulky waste has got in there that, you know, (Pause) took up awful lot of landfill space and there’s opposition that says: ‘it came across the border already pretty dirty, got minimally processed. What I’m referring to happened at K.T.I. in 2010; because they’ve really improved their process at that center. They…there’s some focused on their facility, but essentially… a lot came across the border, not much fuel was made out of it and it went up to Juniper Ridge. Ummm…that doesn’t seem to support a hierarchy. Is there any structure in place for us to enforce that part of the contract? Is the Attorney General’s Office watching regularly, the State Planning Office… watching? If somebody raised their hand and said: ‘Wait a minute: Foul! –Heh!’ How does that happen?”
Bill Armstrong: “Well, it’s not the Attorney Generals Office.”
Bob Duchesne: “O.K. so…”
(Note to readers: Bill Armstrong chuckles covering some of Bob Dushesne words. Then Bob Dushesne chuckles himself, until here:)
Bob Duchesne: “So, is it George?” (Chuckles.)
(Note to readers: “George,” is George Mac Donald, from the Maine State Planning Office.)
Bill Armstrong: “Yes.” (Chuckles.)
Bob Duchesne: “Of course!” (Laughs.) Somebody said: ‘Jeez, we’re taking up a lot of air space. Ah, we’re not really seemlingly honoring our hierarchy. That’s in violation of page 24 of the contract.’ Ah, who does that?”
George MacDonald: “The Maine State Planning Office.”
Bob Duchesne: “We’re going to miss you when you’re gone.” (Chuckles.)
Tom Saviello: “He’s not going anywhere.”
Bob Duchesne: “He’s not going anywhere.”
Bill Armstrong: (Chuckles.)
Bob Duchesne: “It’s a life sentence.” (Laughs.)
Bill Armstrong: (Laughs, like he’s just heard something truly funny.)
Tom Saviello: “Other questions? Anything…(Note to readers: inaudible words spoken until here:) “…you’d do is too paranoid to understand.”
Bob Duchesne: “I, I got a…”
Tom Saviello: “No, you’re done. Go ahead.”
Bill Armstrong: (Chuckles.)
Seth Goodall: “Ah, I’m sorry. Regarding page 23…of the contract.”
(Pages shuffling.)
Bill Armstrong: “O.K.”
Seth Goodall: “This is under sub-section A. It talks about tipping fees for disposal of waste that’s not…” (Note to readers: on tape it sounds like “F-J waste.”)
Bill Armstrong: “Mm-Hunh.”
Seth Goodall: “So, fall under ah, waste that puts down specific, ahhhh…types, including ‘C & D.’ Now, this paragraph following the bullets of subject notices under the obligations under the sections of 2. 3. 00 or for tipping fees of not conceived fees, being under its Maine’s special term of ‘home fees,’ are exclusive that… (Note to readers: series of words were said way too fast to understand.) “…State or other laws enacted or regulated, or propagated accurate…” (Note to readers: next word was either “effectively” or “to affect.”) “…Maine, would salvage some annual adjustments according to the…”
(Note to readers: unidentified voice cuts in to override Seth’s voice until here:)
Seth Goodall: “…And such be changed law, which determined by…” (Note to readers: a few words were obscured here.) “…destruction of operator disclosure. How do you interpret that? Ah, to potential prohibit or allow us to change?”
(Really long pause here.)
Bill Armstrong: “I got to have a chance to look at it though. I think you could swipe through it. Like you said, you can change the fee structure but the…” (Note to readers: next word or words was either, “contemplate or “kind of place.”) “…you’re going to change the fee structure Statewide, -you go after certain waste. As I said earlier, if you start enacting laws that, in effect, address this kind of material, that affects their cost, they’re going to be able to come in and then try to negotiate that. So, that they can, you know, get a fair return on their investment.”
Seth Goodall: “And the risk is, just like it was with the ‘Car Test,’ course, ah, litigation, or re-negotiate of contracts. Ahhmmm…but, that’s a risk the Legislature always has to take, when we do work as a prime actor.”
Bill Armstrong: “Right.”
Seth Goodall: “Just as a prime actor has to assume the risks, when in negotiating with the State. That, the State, may change their laws. Or…or not fund the contract. As you mentioned…”
Bill Armstrong: “Yeah, and this provision seems to of, address, that issue, head on. If you’re going to start changing the laws, You’re cost…raise the cost of us, for that landfill, then we’re going to re-negotiate. –Key structure.”
Seth Goodall: “O.K...”
Bill Armstrong: “Yeah. In other words, that…that, that possibility was foreseen. That the Legislature may change the way you’re going, you know, want landfills to be managed.”
(Long Pause.)
Tom Saviello: “Senator Duchesne.”
Bob Duchesne: “Thank you Senator. These are for George. Ahmmm…On pricing, does the State Planning Office actually monitor what the price is being charged, so that you can prepare what, Ummm…Troy-on is being charged per ton, versus, Pine Tree Waste?”
George MacDonald: “We get regular updates as to what those fees are. Yes.”
Bob Duchesne: “So you would know. You would be able to compare to see if price discrimination is happening.”
George MacDonald: “On a broad base, yes.”
Bob Duchesne: “On a broad base.”
George MacDonald: “Not on a broad basis... (Note to readers next words sounds like, “Road by Road.”) “…broad base.”
Bob Duchesne: Would you happen to have any idea what the gross revenue is? For Casella at Juniper Ridge?”
George MacDonald: “No.”
Bob Duchesne: “Or do we have any idea what the…the market value for a landfill sale would be for an asset?”
George MacDonald: “there are people here who could assess a value for the landfills, so…”
Bob Duchesne: “Right.”
George MacDonald: “…We have a …”
Bob Duchesne: “We never actually. We don’t even know the value of our own asset at this point. And I’m not going to hear…I’m just saying I’ve been at this for 8 years, and I couldn’t even tell you how much it’s worth. (Bob almost chuckles here.) Thanks.”
Tom Saviello: “I got a question…”(Note to readers: a chair squeaked next to a microphone and blocked out a few words here until:) “…Can…can…(Note to readers: question was obscured and the only words understandable is:) “…Can take their stuff from Massachusetts.”
George MacDonald: “Yeah.”
Seth Goodall: “That’s why, so…they can bypass…right?”
George MacDonald: “Your definition of ‘by-pass,’ is, in statue. Our operating services agreement says: ‘Out of State generated waste is excluded waste.’”
Tom Saviello: “’By-pass’ is defined out.”
George MacDonald: “it was changed in 2007 to include, ‘by-pass, from out of State.’ Before it was...” (Note to readers: Last word was talked over by Tom Saviello.)
Tom Saviello: “I was just wondering, if there was a limit on taking the stuff from out of State.”
Bob Duchesne: “Amendment B…Amendment B: It allows 20 thousand tons of ‘by-pass.’”
George MacDonald: “When you’re talking about the…”
(Note to readers: End of side of recording tape. Next side of tape picks up at:)
Representative Ricky Long: “So presently, there’s excluding, do you know if there’s any of that going in, as a result of that?”
George MacDonald: “To my knowledge, I do not.”
Ricky Long: “There’s none? That’s taking advantage of that? Is that what you said?”
George MacDonald: “As far as I know.”
Ricky Long: “So there is no out-of-State waste going in?”
(Note to readers: Three words spoken by Tom Saviello could not be deciphered.)
Unidentified voice: “Representative Ayotte.”
Representative Bernard Ayotte: “I just wanted, I…I…I do respect what you’re trying to say.”
(Room breaks out in Laughter.)
Bernard Ayotte: “So, Ah, if you define some of these things. What is this hierarchy you’re talking about? Just quickly. And then I want to ask: Whether, did somebody change the rules, after this contract was negotiated? Is this what the…” (Note to readers: one single inaudible word here.) “…I’d just like to know, there’s a right flak in there. You understand what better this interstate is all about.”
(Room has murmured laugh, distinctively heard.)
George MacDonald: “The hierarchy is thee State’s policy for how solid waste should be managed. And it’s a series of steps. And it starts out with the preferred way for managing waste, which is reduce. Reduce the Waste, so we don’t have to deal with it, whether volume or toxicity.”
Bernard Ayotte: “O.K..”
George MacDonald: “And then re-use. Re-using the waste, so it doesn’t have to end up in the waste stream. Recycling, to recover the value. Composting the Organic fraction.”
Bernard Ayotte: “O.K..”
George MacDonald: “And anything that has waste to energy where you extract value, from the waste through combustion. And you have the landfilling of residues; or materials that shouldn’t or can’t be managed in any of the above steps.”
Bernard Ayotte: “Alright, to lead up on the discussion we’re having right now, in treating the resentment of change. Centered on…did somebody change these contracts more? Did somebody to decide, whomever was the contact, to re-negotiate this? What is the problem we are trying to solve here right now?”
Bill Armstrong: “Well, there’s been, there’s been…no changes to the contract.”
Bernard Ayotte: “O.K..”
Bill Armstrong: “Except the ones…except the ones that are mentioned already. One was, the first one, was simply to extend the window to make an application to expand it from 3 to 5 years. And the second one is, is…as Senator Goodall has pointed out, and addressed it: Handling the ‘C & D,’ matter. Other than that, no.”
Unidentified voice: “Senator.”
Seth Goodall: “When was the last time, Casella, or K.T.I., or whatever, supplied wood, or supplied fuel, to…”(Note to readers: next words were inaudible until:) “…as the original operating service agreement?”
George MacDonald: “I don’t know off the top of my head, Senator.”
Seth Goodall: “Was it pre…was it before or after the second amendment?”
George MacDonald: “They were supplying wood to the Mill, prior to the second amendment.”
Seth Goodall: “Were they after?”
George MacDonald: “There were some issues with thee bio-mass facility at the time, and I don’t know exactly when they stopped delivering the ‘C.D.D.’ fuel.”
Seth Goodall: “Alright, what would’ve happened, if the second amendment wasn’t in place then? What would, ahhh…what would be happening, alright, in practice?”
Bill Armstrong: “What do you mean, ‘What would be happening?’”
Seth Goodall: “Well, there’s a large concern that…” (Note to readers: next word was inaudible. It picks up at:) “…Out-of-State waste that originates out of State, is defined as ‘In-State waste,’ being ahhh… landfilled, the by-product…” ( Note to readers: Next four words sounded mumbled. It picks up at:) “…And some would argue, that…that’s a result as of the second amendment. I’ll just put it in quotes: ‘As well as a change in the Law in 2007.’ So, if we…if the second amendment were have never been executed, in practice what would be happening with the Landfill today?”
Bill Armstrong: “If it hadn’t been executed, in other words, they were confined to using ‘C. & D.,’ from the State?”
Seth Goodall: “Mm-hun.”
Bill Armstrong: “And there wasn’t sufficient…If there wasn’t sufficient available to make/reap 100,000 tons, they were going to be providing green wood chips.”
Seth Goodall: “But, they’re not supplying it, because obvious, they are operating on an insufficient account, correct? If there’s not a need for the supply.”
Bill Armstrong: “If there’s no need to supply, then they wouldn’t have, then there is…no need to be supplying.”
Tom Saviello: “O.K., assuming that no other markets are materializing.”
Bill Armstrong: “Right.”
Tom Saviello: “That there are no markets that are materializing.”
Seth Goodall: “True, that’s what the second and third topics are.”
Bill Armstrong: “Yeah.”
Seth Goodall: “Then obviously it would be different conversation.”
Bill Armstrong: “…that would be no different except for…some reason, Red Shield decided that they simply weren’t going to operate the Bio-Mass facility. We wouldn’t be…brought the ‘C. & D.,’ obviously.”
Seth Goodall: “True.”
Bill Armstrong: “Yeah.”
Seth Goodall: “Ahhh…(Very long pause.) what would be the process, ahhh…if the State and Casella went to re-negotiate the contract, under current law, what parties are obligated…What parties can execute an…”(Note to readers: next word was totally inaudible.) “…or re-negotiate the contract? To acquire a statutory…approval, of a law enacted by the Legislature?”
Bill Armstrong: “No, I don’t believe so. The figure to the original resolve gave the same, also to impose whatever terms and conditions that they wanted. That would to me, in my mind, would include making an amendment to.”
Seth Goodall: “What happens if, Ahhh…the amendment was so… if it materially impacted the entire agreement, to the contract message was entirely changed, would they have the authority to do that? I mean the original resolve, or was that required that it matched?”
Bill Armstrong: “Well, when you’re talking ‘amendment,’ you’re talking as agreement. So, if it’s so onerous, Casella probably would not agree to it.”
Seth Goodall: “But, if you wanted to sell a Landfill, that would require Legislative action.”
Bill: “If you want to sell a landfill, They you’re going to have to negotiate with Casella.”
Tom Saviello: “In which we would have to change the law that says…”
Bill: “Because I expect they’re gonna want some negotiations around their anticipated return on their $26 Million dollar investment.”
Seth Goodall: “Or the ability to…(pause) accept waste.”
Bill: “Well, get back to your suggestion, that maybe…(Note to readers, inaudible words here until:) and others take ‘out-of-State’ waste.”
Seth Goodall: “O.K..”
Tom Saviello: “I think you know the ramifications.”
Bill: “Right.”
Unidentified voice: “One more question.”
Tom Saviello: “Do you have anything you want to finish up with?”
Unidentified voice: “I guess I do have one more.”
Tom Saviello: “Go ahead.”
(Note to readers: inaudible conversation, up until this point:)
Seth Goodall: “So hopefully we won’t have to drag you back here.”
(Room chuckles lightly.)
Seth Goodall: “Ummm….say for example, in the future…Dolby wants to allow waste, in whatever form or substance, to landfill there; Agree, since we are the State owners. And the contract that’s stipulates is different, from the contract that, ah, the State…at what point, Ahhh…might be, that called ‘discrimination?’ or… (Note to readers: inaudible single word here.)…of other laws? If we had a materially different contract, between two different players?”
Bill: “Well, it could be…you don’t change…or stuck to any of the current laws. So, I’ll be completely free to negotiate with whatever we want to do with the operator of Dolby.”
Seth Goodall: “So would Dolby, for example, if the State wants to turn to a contractor, not an operator, As we said before, and seal it’s only one of its structure, of: ‘We had an arrangement,’ So…”
Bill: “Yes.”
Seth Goodall: “By contract.”
Bill: “Yeah, by contract. Yeah.”
Tom Saviello: “Other questions? This is your chance. I’m sure they’ll come back if we ask.”
(Bob Duchesne and Bill Armstrong chuckle.)
Tom Saviello: “Do you want to have any questions of anybody else or are we pretty much done for the day?”
Unidentified voice: “My guess is, that this is it.”
Tom Saviello: “Yeah.”
(Room laughs.)
Bill: “I don’t want to open the door or anything.”
(Bill Armstrong lightly chuckles with a few others.)
Tom Saviello: “Well, I do greatly appreciate you coming down. I hope this all gives the committee everything it needs for a base line for working together tomorrow, and we will do it. And I thank you both of you gentlemen for coming in today and for that…committee is adjourned.”
Interview with Hillary Lister
Q : “O.K., I’m talking speaking to Hillary Lister. We got some very important news here, that’s ground breaking. Ah, Hillary, do you want to tell me real quick what you were just saying about Representative Goodall, ah, from ah, Richmond?”
A : “Yeah, Representative Goodall. He has been pretty good on criticizing issues with Casella, and I would say, that’s primary due to the fact, that his P.A.C. is partially/ largely funded by Waste Management. Over the past few he’s really pushed through one piece of legislation that was crafted by Waste Management. To allow them to, amend State Law to expand their dump in Norridgewock. Even though when they got operating rights, they agreed that it wouldn’t expand beyond that footprint. He’s been the biggest promoter of that legislation. He was the original prime sponsor of that legislation. So, he can be raising some really relevant points about problems with Casella, but the flipside of it is he’s been trying to get Waste Management contracts and (chuckles.) laws in the state for a while here.”
Q : “And when you say pol…that, Political Action Committee, right for P.A.C.?”
A : “Yup, Political Action Committee.”
Q : “And that’s working on that, ah, interview I did with you and Diane Messer. When you said that, ah, if, ah, ah, ‘Casella can’t expand the Juniper Ridge Landfill, ah, that, they are probably going to expand it over it at the Dolby Landfill.’ I mean, yeah, the Waste Management Landfill.”
A : “Norridge…”
Q : “Norridgewock.”
A : “Well, there’s Norridgewock Landfill, which is owned by Waste Management. And they’re the only commercial landfill allowed in Maine though. Casella is operated effectively as a commercial landfill. Norridgewock is the only one that got really ‘Grandfathered,’ in. And
the whole reason that Waste Management got operating rights for that, was the previous company, was bringing in massive amounts of out-of-state waste. It collapsed the dump and they brought in Waste Management to basically, their expertise supposedly was dealing with problem dumps.”
Q : “Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, are you ready for this one? Are you ready for this one? Ah, I think I got it on tape, but my tape recorder did go off. Tom Saviello, was speaking to Sean Mahoney. Who Sean authored the Open letter to Pattie Aho. From the Conservation Law Foundation. Tom informed Mr. Ah, Mahoney, that the…you know why the reason why dumps, fall like 12 feet? Because fiber shrinks over time.”
A : “Or they build them on top of clay, that just let’s go.” (Laughs.)
Q : “But are you surprised about that?”
A : “That’s sounds like the sort of thing he’s said, as long as I’ve been coming here. He’s been chairing this committee and making whatever random claims. Which, are partially true, but ignore the serious truth of the reason the Norridgewock dump collapsed, and the reason the Dolby dump has sunk 9 feet, since they built it. Is they build them, basically in bogs. Norridgewock is built on clay. Dolby is built, pretty literally in a bog.” (Chuckles.)
Q : So that statement that he made, is probably…”
A : “It’s truth to a little degree. But the…”
Q : “But 12 feet would be, ah, adding.”
A : “Yeah, that’s much more to do with the ground itself shifting.”
Q : “And when you say, ‘a bog,’ is that more of a bog like what Juniper Ridge Landfill is on? Even though that George Mac Donald said that, ‘It’s not in a bog. But there’s a stream that runs under the far toe of it.’”
A : “Just next to a bog, and Dolby is even…Dolby is actually overlooking a Pond. So, it’s Dolby Pond…”
Q : “That’s right.”
A : “But the dump is built on the edge of.”
Q : “Yeap. Those were raised last year. That’s there’s all sorts of concerns about leachate in there. But there really hasn’t been much in the way of tests for quite a while since it’s not an active landfill anymore. So they haven’t maintained much in the way of monitoring, it seems like.”
Q : “And did you read that Open letter to Pattie Aho?
A : “I did, yeah.”
Q : “What, now, what did you think about that?”
A : “Ummm…”
Q : (Laughs.)
A : “I mean I think it’s very relevant. I think the more attention that can be drawn to her connections, very direct connections, to Pierce Atwood, one of the largest law and lobby firms in the state for the waste industry, really needs to get out there.”
Q : “What did you think about that meeting, that she conveniently had in her office, and then said she didn’t know any idea about?”
A : “Business as usual. I need to run back downstairs. I was just grabbing this.”
Q : “O.K.. Cool, cool, thanks.”
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Q : “O.K., I’m back here with Hillary. O.K., now what were you saying about Bob Duchesne?”
A : “That he’s definitely had conversations with Waste Management lobbyists and has consistently, sort of spoken in favor of policies that they’ve been promoting. And they, I think they approached him as someone whose in opposition to Casella. So, making very clear, that Waste Management is, in certain ways, a far better company than Casella. And even indicating that maybe they should be operating some of those things Casella is operating.”
Q : “Now what do you think about this, ah, even though it’s probably going to work in Casella’s favor, the, ah, proposed, ah, fees, they’re trying to pass through the Natural Resource Council?” (Note to readers: It should have been called the Natural Resource Committee.)
A : “I’m not sure is Casella is still going to be able to get around paying fees, or not. It it’s…”
Q : “They’re not going to get around it. They’re talking about, the way they described it, because I listened to the tape last night. If there’s fees imposed. Because, Casella is lined up with K.T.I. in Lewiston, they’ll have an in. And there’s even accusations made from drivers, according to Bob Duchesne, that, the drivers go to K.T.I…”
A : “Can you hold on for a second?”
Q : “Yes.”
Dual Interviews with Paul McCarrier and Hillary Lister
Q : “I got ground breaking news here, from Paul McCarrier. He just talked to, ah…”
Paul : “Bernard Ayotte.”
Q : “Bernard Ayotte.”
Paul : “Representative from Northern Maine.”
Q : “Representative from Northern Maine, o.k.. Can you try to remember what you were just telling him about the Patricia Aho deal, that went on?”
Paul : “Well, here’s the issue, is that, ah, the legislature was hearing, ah, review of the contract between the state and Casella, concerning the operation of Juniper Ridge Landfill, by Casella. Ummm…yesterday there was a representative from the Attorney Generals’ office, along with Patricia Aho there, from the, Ummm…the Commission of Department of Environmental Protections. Now that hearing got out, at about 4:20 in the afternoon and that same day at 6:00, there was an article in the Bangor Daily news, saying that how the Commissioner had approved a doubling of Dol…Ah, Juniper Ridge Landfill, as opposed to the tripling that Casella had asked for. And then also gave a link to the 35 page decision. And so it’s very surprising that you had the Commissioner of the Department of Environmental Protections along with the Attorney General who reviews this whole contract, both before a legislative committee. And in under 2 hours they seemly approved something without letting the legislative committee know that there was, ah, that this deal to expand the landfill. Which is the whole reason for the hearings about the operating contract between Casella and the State. The proposed additions of tipping fees brought by Bob Duchesne of Hudson. And the continuing discussion of where is most of Maine states’ waste coming from? Out-of-State or is it produced in state? And so I just find it very surprising. And I’m not a Legislature, so I can’t, you know, Ummm…I don’t feel personally slighted by this. But if I were a Legislature and I had the Commissioner of the Department of Environmental Protections and the Attorney for the , Ummm…you know, and the attorney for the Attorney General, who deals with those contracts in the same room. And would not let me know, that this contract, that this public benefit, Ummm…for expansion, had been approved; I’d feel pretty insulted.”
Q : “Right, and ah, I talked to a guy from , Paul. I forgot his last name. I think it’s Schroeder from Trash Trackers Network. Schroeder, Sherdier? O.K…he actually told me, ‘Watch out for the news tonight. Because they are going to announce, the, the, the, ah, the decision, for the ah, ah, ah.”
Paul : “Expansion.”
Q : “Expansion. Right, right, right.”
Paul : “Yup. That had been discussion in that committee meeting yesterday. Was where they going to announce it and among committee member they’d said: ‘Oh, there hasn’t been a decision yet. There hasn’t been a decision yet. So apparently that decision happened between 3-5 with the Commissioner sitting in the hearing room?” (Chuckles.)
Q : “Wow! Wow! O.K. so basically they’re gonna, expand the Landfill, and, ah, ah, everything else is just basically, ah, because the Pat. Did you? Did you see the Open letter to Patricia Aho? Did you show him that?”
Hillary : “I haven’t yet.”
Q : “O.K.. I’m actually gonna…I gave her a copy of it. I actually got a copy of a letter and we got permission to do: An open letter to Patricia Aho, from the Conservation Law Foundation.
Paul : “Un-Hun.”
Q : “Written by Sean Mahoney. What happened was…(pause.) Patricia Aho was, ah, the , ah, interim before she was fully appointed as the Department of Environmental Protection head. It seemed that she was informed of the, ah, Flagstaff Lake, ah, ah, Florida Power and Light, Flagstaff lake, ah, ah, something to do with Flagstaff Lake.”
Paul : “The dam.”
Q : “Yeah, possibly. Ah, I’m not real sure. But what happened was, she didn’t attend a meeting. Or she didn’t approve it, and now the state for the next 25 years has no say at what happens at Flagstaff Lake. Because Patricia Aho’s, ah, co-worker, Sam…Samantha, ah, Deploy, hyphen something. Ah, said that, ‘Patricia Aho didn’t know about this stuff.’ But low and behold, according to this letter, she did know about this. And now the state has no say. And isn’t it consequential that Flag Staff Lake, may or may not , be in the route between the ‘East-West highway,’? With the power lines that’s suppose to go from Calais Maine to Coleburns and so forth.”
Paul : “I, I, I, I, I haven’t heard about that yet. I’ve been following mostly trash issues. And from Patricia Aho’s record on the public benefit on the expansion for the Juniper Ridge Landfill, I would not be surprised. That’s up for interview right now Doug. If you don’t mind Doug.”
Q : “O.k., o.k., no problem.”
Paul : “Thanks man.”
Q : “Definitely.”
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Q : “So like, what we were saying before. What happened was, ah, ah, Bob Duchesne said that he hears complaints from truckers that brought recycled material to K.T.I.. And they said they wouldn’t accept it. But then, when they, ah, when they have trucks from Massachusetts coming in, with the same type of similar material, then they accept the material. Have you heard similar things?”
Hillary : “Yup. I’ve definitely heard similar things, and K.T.I. is getting most of its waste from out-of-state right now. The other states have the money to ship it up, because they’d have to pay to otherwise dispose of it in their states. So it’s more cost effective and at a good amount of cases, the trucks that are shipping it up from Massachusetts are subsidiaries of Casella. So it benefits them all around. They’re basically getting to pay themselves effectively.”
Q : “And were you surprised when no one’s keeping track of that, even though it would be a violation of their contract?”
Hillary : “Again that seems to be business as usual.” (Chuckles.) “that’s all, it’s just ‘Casella overseeing Casella.’” (Chuckles.)
Q : “now do you think that…do you think that there’s a way, that the States definitely going to, be able, to, ah, look into seeing if there’s a violation of contracts, so they’d shut it down. Of do you think they are just going to pretend to see if there’s any violations of contracts?”
Hillary : “Only if they are required to, or they’d go do it and that’s part of a push for an O.P.E.G.A. investigation of the State’s contracts with Casella.”
Q : “You said, O.P.E.G.A. ?”
Hillary : “O.P.E.G.A.. The Office of Program of Evaluation of Government Accountability. They’re putting in a letter to that office, with several legislatures whose signed onto it. To request an investigation as soon as possible.”
Q : “Do you know what the status of that is?”
Hillary : “Ummm…It will go before their next meeting. Which is in a couple of weeks from now.”
Q : “Is that going to be a public meeting?”
Hillary : “Yup.”
Q : “Right here at the State House?”
Hillary : “Yup.”
Q : “Do you know which Committee is going to be doing it?”
Hillary : “Ummm…the O.P.E.G.A.. It’s a Government oversight committee.”
Q : “So, they got their own committee?”
Hillary : “Yup.”
Q : “O.K.. Hopefully I can get this up before them. Ah, so, I know your packing up and stuff. Are you going to be here tomorrow by any chance?”
Hillary : “No, I…”
Q : “O.K., O.k.….Ah.”
Hillary : “But if you want to come up to Orono, there’s a whole discussion. I’m going to be on a panel on Environmental Justice up in Orono, at U. Maine Orono. So a lot of this is going to be discussed up there.”
The following was transcribed and reprinted by permission of Paul Schroeder from the following YouTube video: 20120118 Casella on Fuel Supply. (Note to readers: January 18th 2012 testimony presented to the Natural Resources Committee.)
Seth Goodall: “Thank you very much. Would Casella, or K.T.I., or both or separate, however been talk about.”
Don Meagher : “I’m Don Meagher from Casella Waste Systems. Ahmmm…And with me, and sitting with me is Dan Emerson, also from Casella Waste Systems. Ummm…I’ll talk more about Juniper Ridge. Dan’s expertise is K.T.I. Biofuel; he’s the manager of that facility. Ahhh…the first thing, I’d like to just, Ahhh…spend a few minutes, Ahhh…on…I’ve talked about this before. But, Ummm…I’d like to correct the, ah, assertion that has been made a number of times, that, Ahhh…somehow the State has derived no financial benefit from the Juniper Ridge Landfill. Ahhh…First in 2004, Casella, paid the State of Maine $26 Million Dollars for the privilege of operating that Landfill for 30 years. Ahhhmmm…There are a number of direct benefits, that Ahhhmmm…Ummm…Go both to Old Town Fuel and Fiber in Old Town and Lincoln Pulp and Paper, Ahhh…in Lincoln. And those are below market, Ahhh…disposal fees’ for residues from those Mills. Ahhh…Ahhh…Tipping fees’ at the Juniper Ridge Landfill at well below, Ahhh…what those Mills could operate their own Landfills for. And so, there is a direct, Ahhh…financial benefit to those two Mills which was…Ahhh…(Note to readers: minor feedback cuts out words here.) The State had in 2003. Ahhh…There is also, Ahhh…currently a $2 Million Dollar a year subsidiary, Ahhh…To Old Town Fuel and Fiber. Ummm…related to the ‘C & D,’ fuel obligation that was entered into as part that, Ahhh…going back to 2003.
Finally the form that I handed out to you, is one that, Ummm…I’ve handed out many times. We’ll go over again. Ahhh…The total aggregate direct financial payments that Juniper Ridge has made even to the city of Old Town, the town of Alton, the neighbors around the Landfill or the State of Maine, exceeds $15 Million dollars over the past 8 years. The city of Old Town has received directly, Ahhh… approaching $8 Million dollars. Ahhh…Over that period of time. The town of Alton, approaching half a Million dollars. Ahhh…the neighbors themselves, nearly $3 Million dollars. And the State of Maines’ Special Waste fee, over $4 Million dollars. Ahhh…So the impression, that somehow, the State, has gotten ‘no benefit,’ out of that facility, on a financial standpoint, is simply, factually, incorrect.
(Pause.) Ummm…I’m trying to think…Ahhh…the topic of…Ummm…of…Juniper Ridge charging…Ah…Lower fees’ to our company haulers, then we do to other haulers coming into the facility, Ahhh…Representative Duchesne correctly…Ahhh…noted that, that is prohibited…Ahhh…in a contract with the State. Ahhh…and understand regardless of whether we are a vertically integrated company, or not, Ahhh…a hauling operation is a ‘Clust Center,’ and it has expenses, Ahhh…that it has to offset against its revenues. Ahhh…and…and…our hauling companies have to do that, as do other hauling companies going into the facility…So, the fact that there is vertilee…vertical integration and somehow or another the Landfill can lose money, Ahhh…in order…Ahhh…for the hauling operation to not lose money, Ahhh…I think, is just, Ahhh…a simple misunderstanding in how a business works. Ahhh….Ummm…In terms of K.T.I., I’m not sure. Dan has the Authority on pacific things, That, you want to comment on.”
Dan Emerson : “I don’t know and yet with Juniper Ridge and Waste Management had brought it up. We have a hundred thousand tons, per year, of ‘C & D.’ in which we have a commitment of an inter-ratio. If we can’t supply them with a hundred thousand tons, or if they utilize that hundred thousand tons, we actually pay them over a Million dollars, Almost $ 1 ½ Million dollars per year. When we first entered that agreement, we were setting up K.T.I., and our customer base in order to supply that facility with those ships. Hence why, we’re bringing in the volume of, Ummm… wood ships, Ahhh…’C.D.D.’ into K.T.I. in order to prepare ourselves to do that. And, we’re still to this day, contractually obligated to do that. However, since we’re not shipping out material for the Red Shield, or Old Town Fuel and Fiber, Ah…that material now is going up to the Boralex and Sappi, divided between the two. And Old Town at this point, can’t burn that, so again, we’re…we’re just issuing a check every year to Old Town Fuel and Fiber.”
Don Meagher : “ I think finally I have to take exception to the assertion that, Ahhh…Somehow or another, Ahhh…Casella has not managed the Juniper Ridge Landfill in a manner that was…it was expected to do, Ahhh…back in 2003. Ahhh…I can go into the entire history, Ahhh…I…As I attempted to do, Ahhh…before. I realize that gets somehow tedious. But, if one follows the resolve that this committee pasted. To the request of proposals that the State Planning Office had put out to select an Operator for that facility. To Casella’s proposal in response to that ‘R.F.P.,’ to the States’ selecting us as the operator and…please note that we were thee only company that bid on that ‘R.F.P.,’ that might give you some idea of, Ahhh…of, Ahhh…How difficult it was and has been to meet the requirements in that ‘R.F.P..’ Nobody else thought they could make money adequately. Ummm…we took the risk, Ahhh…going from the ‘R.F.P.’, to our proposal to our contract with the State,…(Pause.) I would ask somebody to give us a specific instance in which that is not being followed, as it was expected to occur. Take the example of ‘C & D,’ processing into ‘wood-fuel,’ and Ahhh…that out of State waste would be a large component of that. That was fully understood in 2003. It was incorporated into our proposal to the State. It was incorporated into our contract with the State, to operate that Landfill. And so, now 8 years later, somehow say, ‘C and D.’…’C & D,’ being used to full…fulfill that obligation is a surprise; is simply a mischaracterization of understanding of what is in 2003.
The very definition of ‘Out of State waste,’ that waste coming into Maine and being processed, is then acceptable waste at Juniper Ridge. That topic was specifically addressed at the work session, when that bill was being debated. And two Representatives of this committee, past Representatives of State government: ‘If Waste is brought into Maine, and processed in Maine, is that residue then Maine waste, and is it acceptable to go up to Juniper Ridge?’ And the answer from three Representatives, from the Governors’ office, from the D.E.P., and from the State Planning Office, was ‘Yes.’ (Pause.) And that’s what’s going on today. It is entirely consistent with 2003, it is consistent with State Statue.
And again, we seem to be wanting to re-visit, a decision that the State made at that time. If that was unacceptable in 2003, then the decision should have been made then, not today. But re-visiting it today, I think was simply…(pause.)…Changing a decision that was made then and the State entered into a contract on the basis of that understanding.”
Seth Goodall: “Ah, I just want to correct…I…I think everyone around this ‘Horse shoe,’ knows and agrees and appreciates the fact that Casella has given quite a bit of enumeration to the State, and to different entities, the municipals as you weighed out here. I think, Ummm…for some of us, I’m not speaking for the Committee, but the concern is that, the value upon, you know, the entire contract, is not something, that some of our opinions that, show that, Ahhh…Such as other trade assets. And some of us have compared it to, the ‘Liquor Contract.’ (Note to readers: new word inaudible.) And these are all debatable issues, but, we are, Ahhh…acknowledgeable of the fact, that when we acknowledge the fact that you guys have paid a significant amount of money. We just feel, some of us, that the long term perspective, the value maybe not what it should have been.”
Don Meagher : “Yeah, let me comment on that specifically. If…If one goes back to ‘the resolve,’ Ahhh…there is a phrase that is used in, ‘the resolve,’ Ahhh…which refers to, Ahhh…the entire transaction that was handed off to, the State Planning Office, to bid out…to put out to bed, as ‘Revenue Neutral.’ The Legislature directed, that, that whole arrangement, between the State, Georgia Pacific and the operator of the Landfill, would be ‘Revenue Neutral.’ Now the State decided not to put any money into the transaction. If you put no money in, and it’s ‘Revenue Neutral,’ it means: ‘You get no money back.’ (Pause.) That was the basis of what the State Planning Office was directed to do: ‘Revenue Neutrality.’”
Seth Goodall : “Representative Ayotte.”
Representative Ayotte : “Mr. Meagher, I find it interesting, Don, when, when you talked about the various a numerations that you did…that are in the contract. Can I, can I ask you: ‘What…how much did the State had invested in this?”
Don Meagher : “Ah, Ah, Ah, again the, the State…”
Representative Ayotte : “It was ‘Revenue Neutral.’”
Don Meagher : “…had, had, had, had, no, no revenue to put into the purchase of the landfill, Ahhh…of the design and operation of the landfill, Ahhh…assuming any of the liabilities of the Landfill, -none of the costs associated with the Juniper Ridge facility, were borne.
I’m talking financial, Ahhh…were borne by the State of Maine. All of those obligations, and then in turn, all of the revenues, were placed on…(Note to readers: Woman clearing her throat, conveniently by an open microphone, blocked out the rest of the sentence.)
Representative Ayotte : “And yet these various towns, profit from it.”
Don Meagher : “Well, they…they…”
Representative Ayotte : “Even though the State, had, had not…”
Don Meagher : “Sure.”
Representative Ayotte : “…Put any of their own revenue.”
Don Meagher : “Yeah, O.K…. A ‘Revenue Neutrality,’ Ahhh…we pay the State fee, because those fees’ were being paid at other facilities, before Juniper Ridge became a State owned Landfill. So, to…to not pay these State fees’, would mean…would have meant, the State was losing revenue it previously had. So, yeah, we’re completely fine with that. We went into this arrangement, Ahhh…proposing that we would…we would have financial benefits to the city of Old Town. Now as it turned out, Ahhh….What we actually negotiated with Old Town is, far in access with what we proposed. Ahhh…in response to the ‘R.F.D..’ Ahhh…it’s also far in excess of what our obligation is, under the ‘operating services agreement.’ But, in the case of Old Town, Alton and the Neighbors, those are things we actually have done on a voluntary basis, because, it’s…it’s what we decided to do. And I’m now, you know, saying that we wouldn’t want to do them, but…but we should recognize, at least, or what I’m trying to say here is, is that, we are trying to provide these benefits.”
Representative Ayotte : “ And it costs the State nothing.”
Don Meagher : “That’s correct.”
(Pause)
Unidentified voice : “Representative Duchesne.”
Representative Duchesne : “Thank you Senator. A couple of expectations, I think, may have changed, since the contract, Ahhhmmm… And a lot of this has to do with 2010. Those, those reports, but then I realized the situation is changing from on the ground. But I’ve seen there are two expectations at that time. The first is, the assumption that: ‘What’s coming across the border for processing actually has value. Ahhh…and what we’re hearing from a lot of the haulers is, there is a lot of source separation that goes on, before it ever…either at the transfer station or before it even gets on a truck to come up here. Ahhhmmm…So, when we see a lot of oversized, bulky waste happening at K.T.I., for instance, we’re starting to make a leap of from, that: ‘hey wait a minute, what’s coming into the State, don’t mean that here, has a 7% of value that can be turned into widgets,’ in 2010. That’s basically; we didn’t get any value that was expected in the original expectations. 7% of fuel out of nearly 200,000 tons of waste, isn’t much benefit, according to the original expectations we had of what was going to be made into fuel. The second thing is, this came up in the Blue Ribbon Commission, I think I asked Don, Ahhh…is it your expectation to be able to help us meet our own recycling goals within the State? That is, will the K.T.I., or the Westbrook facility at that time, de-processing Maine waste…(Note to readers: Next word or words was said so rapidly, it could not be understood here.)…as possible? Will we be taking our own trash in there and try to do that? In reality, only…even though it’s sitting in Lewiston, it only took 11% of its waste, from ‘In-State,’ All of that ‘trucked-In,’ from elsewhere. I think it’s two expectations that didn’t really get met in the original deal, so…Can you comment on that?”
Don Meagher : Ahhh…I can comment on both and I’ll ask Dan to help me out. Ahhhhh…In, in terms of, Ahhh…In terms of, of, what can we recovered out of a ton of ‘C & D,’ in, in, 2003, there were no expectations. Because all of thee, Ahhh…Chapter, Ahhhh…418 rules which got into…that was one piece, the…wood…wood fuel quality and then the recycling standard, which was a, Ahhh…subsequently piece of Legislation, none of that had happened, at the time. So there…there were really no expectations, Ahhh…simply that, a 1000,000 tons of ‘C & D,’ wood fuel had to be provided, in whatever way you could do that. And there was no specificity, as to how that would be done. That was simply an obligation. You had to provide that product, at that price and you got to worry about, how you’re going to get it done. We made the observation at the time, that even under the wood yield percentages back of 2003, there was not enough ‘C & D,’ being generated in Maine, if Casella had control of all of it. Which it doesn’t then and it doesn’t now. You couldn’t produce 100,000 tons, You wouldn’t even come close.
Ummm…So, that’s, you know, I think, Ahhh…Ahhh…Ummm…A piece of that, Dan, I don’t know if you want to add anything particular about 2010. It was an adventitious year. Ummm…for specifically reasons why the yield was so low, Ahhh…at that time.”
Dan Emerson : “I would add, building up to 2010…In 2007 I believe it was, we actually got our permit in Westbrook. When we got our permit in Westbrook, we were geared up to build out Westbrook. That, ah, $14 Million dollar project, that we were going to process the ‘C & D,’ in order to provide the wood chips to Red Shield at the time. When the economy crashed, Ummm…(pause,) Capital is more expensive at the point. Legislation, Ummm…would have run up against some fines issues, but what they’re going to be considered at that time. We had made ah decision to stop Westbrook, not knowing what was going to happen there. It’s a large investment, to close it down after 2 or 3 years, with Legislative changes, for, for fines going up to Juniper Ridge. There are some issues with …(Note to readers: next set of words were said way too fast to transcribe properly.)…product.
That being said, we still have this commitment of wood chips going to Old Town. When Pine Tree Landfill closed, is when we needed to keep securing that volume, move it to K.T.I., come up with a plan at K.T.I., with the equipment and footprint that we have there, and try to figure out how to process more, and recover more. In 2010 was that transition year of, ‘o.k., we got material…it, it, kinda got forced down our throat, per se, when we closed Pine Tree, we didn’t have a facility to take it. We had customer obligations, now we had to find out how to recover it. It took us a year to get the permits, got the permits, made the changes, this year you’re going to see a huge improvements. And represent…Representative Duchesne has already seen that. As, as, as, Ahhhmm…Senator Saviello. So, we’re heading in the right direction. We’re recovering more, our wood yield has gone from a thousand tons a month to almost five hundred tons a month. The recovery at K.T.I., is substantially higher. It’s improved. Ahhh…But again, in order to pay for that $1.5 Million dollars, we still have to pay to Old Town Fuel and Fiber, we have to do what we are doing, in order to, to offset that. And to supply the wood chips to Boralex and Sappi, today continues to meet.”
Don Meagher : “Ah, can, can I just follow up? One other…one other observation. We, we, we, we always seem to be, discussing the incoming volume into K.T.I., ah, and having the question poised: ‘Why so much out of state ‘C & D,’ ? And the question that never seems to be asked, which I think is…the obvious and important question, ‘Why so little Maine ‘C & D’ ?”
Representative Duchesne : “That was my next question.” (Chuckles.)
Don Meagher : “Why…Why do so few generators of Maine ‘C & D,’ choose to bring their material to K.T.I.? We can’t force them to do that. That is a …That is a decision that is made in the marketplace, by the generator of material. And…And, you know, I, I can’t really answer the question, because, that can only truly be answered by them. But, I think we’ve gotten some insight into that, Ummm…”
Senator Tom Saviello : “Raise your hand.” (Note to readers: Senator Tom Saviello is talking to someone else in a lowered tone, while Don Meagher continues.)
Don Meagher : “… for, ah, some of the people in the room here today, that are, ahhh…ahhh…Extracting the useful material: wood, metal, aggregate and cardboard, ahhh…Out of the raw material that they’re handling at the facilities; it makes no sense for them to deliver that to K.T.I., because there’s not much there to recover. So, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s proper destination is a landfill. Ummm…In terms of thee, Ahhh…Ahhh…thee; Ahhh…Municipal…(Note to readers: next word was obscured, but the best estimate is that word was, ‘Land-line,’ as its identity.)…Landfills that we talked about, as, as, as part of fees’ and recognize…It’s probably not lots, but estimated at 5,000 tons a year. That seems awfully low. Errr…I don’t know how accurate those numbers are. How many of these Landfills actually have on site scales, Ahhh…that they can, Ahhhh…Actually preciously measure that, but, Ummm…(pause.) K.T.I. in terms of what it has to charge for ‘C & D,’ to run its’ operation, will never compete with an online Landfill. That, that’s simply not going to happen. And so, that material, Ahhh…is, is going to go, Ahhh…to that destination. Ahhh…”
Representative Duchesne : “It turns out there aren’t that many tons…”
Don Meagher : “…K.T.I.”
Representative Duchesne : “…Going to online landfills, so it was 5,000; I think, or something like that?”
Don Meagher : “Well…yeah, it said 5,000.”
Representative Duchesne : “So, that’s almost not even in the increased rounding error.” (Chuckles.)
Don Meagher : “Well, now I realize…now that, you know, that, that amounts to, less than, 300 tons per Landfill, when I think of the population in some of those municipalities. To me it sounds like , they’re well below dumping ash. Ummm…but, ah, we’re take it because apparently that’s why…”
Representative Duchesne : “One of them, One of them is in Greenbush. (Laughs.) Let me tell you how small this is.” (Pause.)
Don Meagher : “O.K..”
Representative Duchesne : “Those online landfills really are not items out of the equation. That’s not what’s throwing the market. And the question I’m trying to…Trying to figure out in my own head is: ‘Why is it, (Pause.) happening? That all these people are, are, have transfer stations, hauling companies, that could fore-go the expense of doing all the source separation at transfer station; Just take it to you, and do it there and save on all the transportation costs to get it all the way to Juniper Ridge? Something else is going on. Ah, one of the things that occurs to me that is going on is, it’s a benefit to Casella to be able to take as much out of state waste as possible, process it there and then take as much in-state waste as possible, take it directly up to Juniper Ridge. And that’s just a hypothesis, so far I haven’t found proof against it.”
(Pause.)
Don Meagher : (Clears throat.) “I, I…You know, I…I can’t answer it, because I’m not part of the operation of the operation of that facility. But, I would…I would expect, that we would…we would take all of the in-state waste we could take and…we take the out-of-state waste because we can’t get the in-state waste. Ahhhmmm…”
Representative Duchesne : “There’s something about the economics obviously that is cheaper for them to do the processing and take…go all those miles up the highway, when there are only 20 miles, 30 miles away from K.T.I.. So what’s going on?”
Don Meagher : “Well, well also remember…remember that, when…when they at their facility, in many ways, they’re doing the same thing, was driving their operation as being done at K.T.I., at their facility. When they pull material out that represents to them, both revenue and avoid of cost.”
Representative Duchesne : “Mm-hun.”
Don Meagher : “Because they are now selling it, and offsetting what would be a disposal fee.”
Representative Duchesne : “Let me ask you this then: How would we know that same thing isn’t happening in Massachusetts since that seems to be the intelligent thing to do? And the reason why we have a lot of oversized bulky waste crossing the border, is because , the same thing’s happening there?”
Don Meagher : “I think there’s two things we need to look at and consider. In-state you got the tranphers…transfer stations, you got Troy-on, you got B.B. I.. A lot of their work that comes in, isn’t from ‘trailer work,’ it’s from ‘roll-on work.’ Some of it’s from tear down jobs, Ummm…demolition projects, things of that nature. There’s not a lot of that happening in Maine. That being said, you’re going to get more bulky waste from clean-outs, ‘green models,’ things of that nature. You’re not going to get a lot of ‘finds,’ in there. You’re going to get more…(Note to readers: obscured words used here.)…less worry about what’s metal, some copper. There’s value in some of those containers. I think it makes sense from some for those smaller transfer stations, like Troy-on and B.B.I., to hand pick those items out, get some value out of it, and..(Note to readers: Next word sounds like ‘Egressed.’)…clearly is ‘Colby-W,’ that will go to Juniper Ridge. What we bring in from out of state, are more projects that are more ‘demoing jobs,’ that come up in trailers. They don’t have a lot of bulky-waste, practices out to…we had this discussion when we were out to K.T.I., a lot of the processed resid…residue that we sent out from K.T.I., doesn’t allow from out-of-state, doesn’t consist of mattresses and furniture. It’s…it’s material that has no value. Tarps, Ahhmmm…there’s shingles, a lot of dirty ‘C & D,’ that has no value.”
Representative Duchesne : “And I guess that’s the difference in the expectation from what was...made…made the deal originally. The expectation was: ‘What comes across the border to make fuel items that’s actually going to have fuel in it? And what we’re hearing is: ‘You know it really doesn’t have as much fuel in it, as we originally thought, when we cut the original deal.’”
Don Meagher
: “But, But, again, Ahhh…the, the, the, the, the quality of the material coming in to be processed, ah, how much of it was recycled, how much of it, Ahhh…resulted as wood fuel. Was…there was no expectation of that at all, as part of the discussion. (Note to readers: Next word was either ‘All,’ or ‘Only.’) the expectation and it was required. It was a…it was a prequalification bar, that any successful bearer had to get a hold of was, you have to be able to provide, however you can do it, a 100,000 tons of ‘C & D,’ wood fuel at $4.00 a ton…”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“So…when did the…”
Don Meagher
: “…That was the expectation.”
Senator Seth Goodall
: “…Since Old is, and you’re not sending any wood waste there.”
Don Meagher
: “Right.”
Senator Seth Goodall
: “O.K.. Wouldn’t your company be in a position to potentially want to revisit this contract…”
(Representative Duchesne
chuckles.)
Senator Seth Goodall
: “…Rather than shelling out $1.5 Million…(Note to readers: Someone coughed, but the word was either ‘every,’ or ‘per,’)…year?”
Don Meagher
: “Ahhh…we actually had the opportunity to do that in 2006. Ahhh…Our initially fuel supplier agreement with Georgia Pacific, Ahhh….Ahhh…Ahhh…expired at our sole discretion when Georgia Pacific was no longer the owner of …(Note to readers: Interference with recording microphone cut off rest of words for a second.)…Ahhh…we had…we had…we had the unilateral right to get out of that obligation, Ahhh…in 2006, and, and…(Note to readers: Another interference with microphone here. Next word or words was either: ‘subjugate,’ or ‘such as date.’)…and be done with it all. Ahhh…we were asked by the State of Maine, (pause,) to renew that agreement, with Red Shield and, and with Old Town Fuel and Fiber. So, that, Ummm…it was something we were asked to do, and we took on a lot at considerable expense here.”
Senator Seth Goodall
: “Sure. I mean the notion of…I need to confirm that 2003, I don’t wanna tie this whole long process…”
Don Meagher
: “Right.”
Senator Seth Goodall
: “When you went through hours and hours of…” (Note to readers: next set of words were said too fast to translate.)
Don Meagher
: “Sure.”
Senator Seth Goodall
: “The rational and history and so forth. But, the notion that, an asset that we own, and had contracted you to operate, that we may not, Ahhh…Contemplate making changes to, Ahhh…was defiantly something I would have to hope and Casella contemplated when you made the contract, you knew there was a risk there. So, I think it’s in our responsibility to propose these changes and ideas from time to time, so, you always kind of go back to that line of, of, of, of statements towards us; but I think it’s our responsibility. Especially in light of the fact that you guys are talking expanding…I mean you’re seeking, Ummm…the right to do that right now. I’m trying to figure out: ‘What is the public benefit of Maine,’ in light of current day circumstances to grant that expansion.”
Don Meagher
: “Well, remember also, Ahhh…That, Ahhh…explicit in, Ahhh…The State’s ‘R.F.P.,’ explicit in our proposal in response to it and explicit in our contract with the State, was the presumption, that an expansion application would be reviewed by the D.E.P.. And…and in 2003 and 2004, that was a foregoing conclusion. So…”
(Note to readers:
Unidentified person says: ‘Can I just?’ but Don Meagher continues.)
Don Meagher
: “…That…that assumption has been revisited by the State govern…by State Government, Ah, and really in direct contradiction to what the assumption was in 2003.”
Senator Seth Goodall
: “So, if we can just get back to, I guess the purpose of the film, of Ahhh…of you know, in regards to the fees’ and Ummm…Representative Duchesne knows, he’s studied this quite a bit.”
Don Meagher
: “Sure.”
Senator Seth Goodall
: “We’re looking at fees’ on ‘C& D,’ why a percentage of ‘C & D,’ coming from out of state. I think it’s 80-90% of your facility?”
Don Meagher
: “90%”
Senator Seth Goodall
: “90%. And, Ahhhmmm…this is although, so , based on policies in other states like Massachusetts, Ahhhmmm…many would argue we are inheriting some of the , as they saw as challenges, Errrr…now in the State of Maine based on the structure of that we have set up. A fee might, Ahhmmm…either compensate us of potentially change the market place. I mean, what’s our response to that?”
(Pause.)
Dan Emery
: “At the end of the day, these fees aren’t going to hit the tonnage going into K.T.I.. The fees’ are going to hit the Maine people that are going to go to online landfills. Because, we’re not putting a fee on material going into a processing facility.”
Senator Seth Goodall
: “We could do that.”
(Representative Robert Duchesne and others laugh.)
Dan Emerson
: “Can you?”
(Very long pause and no one is laughing now.)
Senator Seth Goodall :
“AAwwllleerrr…(Awkward response.) “I…I…”
Don Meagher
: “Well, to…to…to respond to your question, ah, Senator Goodall, We…we had said through this process, we said, and also during public hearing, ahhmmm…ahhhmmm…back when it was introduced, ahhh….that…that thee…’a reasonable fee,’ and we think in the $1. Range, Ummm…on, Ahhhmmm…raw unprocessed ‘C & D,’ into landfills as one would see it, is across the board, in every landfill, whoever’s taking it, so there is, ahhh…a level playing field, for everybody; Ahhh…was something we could accept. Ummm…but, that’s…that’s very different than what a (Note to readers: the next word was either ‘Mill,’ or ‘bill.’) was originally proposed as. Ahhmmm…we’ve also indicated, that thee, Ummm…Ahhh…I think it was 8 point ahhh…proposal that, ah Senator Saviello, ahhh…had put together, Ahhh…was…was generally acceptable. Ah, with the, you know few refinments that needs…needs some definitions of things. So we’re not, ah, opposing the fee altogether. Ah, we’re simply, ah, asking for…for really two things. One that it be, you know, kind of reasonable and workable. Ah, and…and two: that there be a level playing field. That: ‘A landfill is a landfill is a landfill.’ They’re all valuable resources and when you put material into a landfill; whether it’s ah, municipal landfill or a commercial landfill or a state owned landfill, whatever it is, you’re using up that resource.”
(Pause.)
(Note to readers:
Bob Duchesnes’ signature chuckles, chime in at this point.)
Don Meagher
: “And, a fee ought to apply if you’re going to decide that’s what you’re going to do, to manage that resource.”
(Laughing occurs from unidentified persons on committee.
Possibly one of them is Bob Duchesne who gives a laugh chuckle after he starts talking.)
Representative Bob Duchesne
: “Thank you. That exemption already exists now. If you own your own landfill, if you’re a community, -Augusta, Ummm…you’re exempt from the solid waste fee…management fee, right now, And the rational always was: ‘If you misspent under your own home rule authority, deal with your own stuff. You…we’re not managing it for you, A solid waste management program, no fee.’ Ummm…and that’s true for all thee, thee municipal landfills and also true, right now. Ahhh…on all fees for the ‘C & D,’ collectors and so, historically, this never was the case…”
Don Meagher :
“Sure.”
Representative Bob Duchesne
: “So, to suggest we have to do this across the board, would be to remove an exemption that always existed under the philosophy that these guys, are ‘home-rule,’ and they’re taking care of their own problem.”
Don Meagher
: “Well, when this committee dealt with the issue of the Lewiston landfill, you took a very different approach.”
Representative Bob Duchesne
: “Mm-hun, and for very good reason.” (Lightly chuckles.)
Don Meagher
: “And from this diverse committee, decided to insert itself as a magic matter of state interest to the business of municipal landfills.”
Representative Bob Duchesne:
“And for very good reasons, that I’ll love to take the committee’s time to go over again, but no one would like it. I’m done for now.”
Unidentified Committee member
: “I’m going off a tangent a little bit, but…but, but, I got…I really got to ask you, to clarity find something that you said ah, in Senator Goodalls’ comment on public benefits. You said, ‘under the 2003-‘4, or, 2003 or ‘4 contract, there’s an obligation under that, for the state to review an application.’ Was it an obligation on behalf of the state to approve an application?”
Don Meagher:
“No.”
Unidentified Committee member:
“I just want to make sure that we’re on the same wave length on that.”
Don Meagher:
“Very…very different. All thee environmental, Ahmmm…criteria had to be done straighter than that. We understood that. There was no guarantee on an expansion to be approved. Ahmmm…but it was, (Pause.) entirely beyond understanding in all those sequences that I went into, with that, that application would be submitted without the need for a public benefit determination, and a review by the committee.”
Unidentified Committee member:
“Without the need for a public benefit determination?”
Don Meagher:
“It was exempt from it.”
Unidentified Committee member:
“O.K., let me ask you another question.”
Don Meagher:
“O.K..”
Unidentified Committee member:
“Your spending a million dollars, a million and a half, whatever it is, you’re sending a check to Old Town, for fuel that’s not being provided.”
(Note to readers:
Someone coughing near a microphone obscured words here. It picks up at:)
Don Meagher:
“Well, fuel they decided not to utilize.”
Unidentified Committee member:
“Whatever.”
Don Meagher:
“Yeah.”
Unidentified Committee member:
“O.K., it’s a check you’re sending out.”
Don Meagher:
“Yes.”
Unidentified Committee member:
“If there was a revision made in the contract that negated that, would that give you a cause to reduce some of the imported waste you’re looking at? I, I understand that you have fixed contracts that you’re obligated to; but would you have a tendency to reduce that or would you…what would happen?”
Don Meagher:
“Well, the, the, the challenge for us, and I would have to leave it to, (chuckles.) frankly, people higher in thee organization than myself. But, we created a business model in order to fulfill an obligation that the state requires to take on in 2003, and then asks us again in 2006 to continue with when we had a ‘sold-off,’ and a way to get out of it. Once having created that business model, ah, we, we can’t…what is the mechanism for somehow, ahhh…unwinding it and keeping us, (Note to readers: last word was either ‘whole,’ or ‘home.’)
Unidentified Committee member:
“Well, I’m not…I’m not necessarily sure I agree with that because you have a business model and I understand how you developed it, and what became of it.”
Don Meagher:
“Yeah.”
Representative Ricky Long:
“But when you start talking a significant amount of money that’s being diverted off which is causing you to increase your revenues and increase your waste stream, whatever.”
Don Meagher:
“O.K..”
Representative
Ricky Long: “And I know you have contracts that are fixed, and I don’t expect that 30 year contract that is probably shorter than that.”
Don Meagher:
“I see.”
Representative Ricky Long: “There is an opportunity, to look at what your business plans from that point forward. Is that something worth considering?”
Don Meagher:
“Always, as in, I’m not going to make any specific commitments here. But, if we were relieved of our obligation, ah… under the fuel supply agreement, would…would that create the opportunity to make some changes? I would guess. That’s fine.”
Representative
Ricky Long: “that’s all I’m asking. I mean, there’s a lot more to it, than a simple answer. But, I understand very well.”
Don Meagher:
“Right. You know, can that go to the point of, you know, terminating the entire operation at K.T.I.? Probably not. Ahhh…ahhh… and if we can only get, you know, what minimal amount of, ahhh…Maine ‘C & D,’ that we get to operate that facility, is it viable based on just that? You know, but…but, you know, Certainty that, that would be a significant change, which would allow, ahhh…”
Representative Ricky Long:
“But the original…”
Don Meagher:
(Note to readers: a few words were obscured by Ricky Long’s words. It picks up at:) “…for some applications.”
Representative Ricky Long:
“But the original intent was to divert wood waste to the Old Town facility, for that use. But they don’t use it. In lure of that, you’re sending them a check. Right? That’s what’s really happening there.”
Don Meagher:
“Correct.”
Representative Ricky Long:
“O.K.. Thanks.”
Dan Emerson:
“And it would then send them a check, you know, if we…we terminated that contract, ahhh…you…you got to look at two things. Are they sustainable? Who’s going to make up that 1 ½ Million dollars on their…on their balance sheet? And number two, you’ve got Sappi and Borlex, who are looking for that material…now! K.T.I. doesn’t provide a 100,000 tons a year, ahhh…currently those facilities. Ahhh…we provide up to, probably 30-35,000 tons of material, based on the volume we bring into K.T.I.. That’s what we can provide out…out of that facility. So, that being said, I don’t think we could divert any more material out of K.T.I., only to provide…” (Note to readers: someone coughing had obscured the next word. It picks up at:) “…and State facilities with the Bio-Mass fuel that they’re requesting.”
Don Meagher:
“I think, and, and, and, and, you know, I I…we would all like to have…”(Note to readers: Same person coughing obscured next word. It picks up at:) “…Some higher possible wood yield content, ahhh…out of ‘C & D,’ comes into K.T.I.; Whether it’s Maine or out-of-state. Well…What I think what Dan is trying to say here is that, ahhh…you know, to wind that back and reduce that operation, that then has a financial impact on those facilities. Because, they’re relying on K.T.I. for, ahmmm…good quality fuel, highly B.T.U. content per pound, at a very favorable price.”
Representative Ricky Long:
“Did…did that enter into, and I know you’re not free to say a lot; but, did that enter into your contracts to negotiation out-of-state, to receive waste unused?”
Don Meagher: “Ummm…”
Representative Ricky Long:
“Did you protect that material, so that, that it did come to you to use? Or are they doing all the re-separation and recycling to remove it before it comes through? Or did your contract protect that, now is that an obligation that you had to have? Does your contract protect that? Or could it be done that way?”
Don Meagher:
“Ahhmmm…”
Representative Ricky Long:
“But we also have some other incinerators in this State that probably are gonna run shy on fuel. So, that’s an important resource, if it’s handled right. And I just want to know where the contracts go. If you control that or if you don’t control that?”
Don Meagher:
“I, I, I’m just not, Ummm…I’m, I’m not, I’m not out of a contract between the…”
(Note to readers:
Ricky Long and Don Meagher talk over each other, until this point:)
Representative Ricky Long:
“If I have a…”(Note to readers: next words sound like either, “Bio-Mass,” or “Governmental-Mass.”) “…And I have a contract with you for waste.”
Don Meagher:
“Un-Hun.”
Representative Ricky Long:
“O.k.? Can I totally segregate and salvage and dispose of everything that’s of value and save just what’s left; or do I , under contract with you, send you what I generate?”
Don Meagher:
“O.K., I…I don’t know what our arrangements are.”
Representative Ricky Long:
“O.K….alright.”
Dan Emerson:
“The arrangements we have with our…our Massachusetts facilities are: If they have been…’official used materials…’” in that, if they have material we can, Ummm…process and generate recoverable wood chips…”(Note to readers: someone coughed and next word was either: ‘Pines, Fines or Finds.’) “…Ah…any valuable metal, anything that we can recover,
That’s material that we’re looking for.”
Representative Ricky Long :
“O.K..”
Dan Emerson:
“If…If there’s…if there’s material. Coming out of facilities that is high volume or bulky waste, or…material that we can’t recover. Anything out of, we do seek that…” (Note to readers last word was either “far,” or “bar.”)
Representative Ricky Long:
“No, but I…so under your contra’s, you did seek to control that, so you do get the good stuff. Not just the…”
Dan Emery:
“Absolutely.”
Representative Ricky Long:
“O.K..”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“A couple of questions, Ahhh…Mr. Meagher in regards to you, I brought this up yesterday about by-pass, Ummm…I think…Ummm…please correct me if I’m wrong, because I don’t have a machine in front of me, Ahhhmmm…M.E.R.C. by-passes 30,000 tons a year…”
Don Meagher:
“Into Juniper Ridge.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Into Juniper Ridge, yeah.”
Don Meagher:
“That’s…that’s probably a close number. It might be a little less than that, but, ah…ahmmm…”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“20 or 30 thousand tons.”
Don Meagher:
“Yes! Ummm…”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“And P.E.R.C. I believe by-passes significantly less…”
Don Meagher:
“Very little.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Very little.”
Don Meagher:
“Yes.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“So, Ummm…(pause) why, since we, looking at the Hierarchy, why would we try to deter that, (note to readers the nest word was either “concurring,” or “occurring.”) especially when you are allowed to by-pass M.S.W., and…”
Don Meagher:
“Let me…let me…let me talk about that in a number of ways. Ahhh…first, you…you had posed the question; Ahhh…(pause) I think it was a week ago Tuesday. Ahhh…George MacDonald responded, ahhh…referring to the definition in state statue, that…by-passed, ahhh…waste that is by-passed from a facility in Maine, is Maine generated waste; regardless of the origin. And that is true, that is the defin…definition of statue. But in our permit at Juniper Ridge, which pre-dated the statutory definition, Ahhhmmm…we voluntarily agreed, that…any by-pass going to Juniper Ridge, when an incinerator did not have the capacity for handling, we’ve only come from Maine sources. So, even…even though the statue says: ‘It could come as by-pass, from out-of-state, directly to Juniper Ridge, it does not happen that way.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Sure.
Unidentified voice:
“No.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
(Note to readers: other voices obscure start of sentence until here:) “I understand to trust the yard, one is from out-of-state. You can by-pass the ‘In-state.’”
Don Meagher:
“What…what we actually do…”
Unidentified voice:
“You better file an engagement this thing.” (Laughs)
Don Meagher:
“No, what we actually do is, when the facility goes into ‘by-pass,’ mode, Maine Energy for example…It goes directly from a Maine transfer station, to Juniper Ridge. It doesn’t go…it doesn’t go to Maine Energy. (Pause) It by-passes ‘Maine Energy,’ and goes directly to Juniper Ridge.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“So…”
Don Meagher:
“But for the Waterville transfer station.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“So, you have an incentive to maximize your contracts at M.E.R.C., even when you can’t handle the capacity, (note to readers: a woman coughing what is picked up is:) when you need a relief valve…”
Don Meagher:
“Sure.”
(Note to readers:
Woman coughing near microphone and obscures conversation until here:)
Don Meagher:
“Sure…Ummm…there…there is also, Ahhh…the Juniper Ridge license that, thee total amount of what is…accepted at ‘Maine Energy,’ and processed and used as fuel, and what is ‘by-passed,’ from Maine Energy from whatever source, the total of those two cannot exceed 310,000 tons a year. Which is thee capacity of Maine Energy.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“But…”
Don Meagher:
“So, we…we don’t…we don’t…we don’t…have the ability to bring in all of this, Ahhh…additional…”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“My…my concern…my concern is…is the value of air space and the fill rate of landfills. And when you look at the ‘by-pass,’…I’m just saying, the way that your structure, from a business perspective, is to maximize your contracts at large; Knowing that if you over-exceed your capacity, you can then, relief valve, into Juniper Ridge. And we have no deterrent in the market place right now, to, Ahhh…(pause) encourage you to do something other than that and Landfill that solid waste.”
(Medium Pause)
Don Meagher:
“Well, there…there are a…a number…a number of things that are…that…that M.S.W. is being used for, Ahhhh…at Juniper Ridge. When, Ahhh…a new selp.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Can I just get a comment for that? Last…year.”
Don Meagher:
“It’s used as what’s called a soft layer.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“So, I guess…I’ll just cut to the chase. What would happen if we put five dollar fee on ‘by-pass,’ and we waive the fee, if that waste went to another incinerator, to encourage, the use of the hierarchy.”
Unidentified voice whispering:
“…Is there something about that?”
Another unidentified voice:
“I don’t know. (long pause.) I just wanted to give the opportunity to answer.”
Unidentified voice:
“Oh.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Representative Duchesne.”
Representative Bob Duchesne:
“Ah, thank you Senator. Ahhmmm…where’s the leaching from Juniper Ridge being processed now?”
Don Meagher:
“Goes to thee, Old Town Fuel and Fiber treatment plant.”
Representative Bob Duchesne:
“Have you had to pay for that, or is that…”
Don Meagher:
“No.”
Representative Bob Duchesne:
“So, that’s at…so, when…when, you were paying them…What? A million, a million and a half right now, for not supplying fuel, to some extent, that’s covering your leaching.”
Don Meagher:
“Ahhh…not…”
Representative Bob Duchesne:
“It’s…It’s…It’s not a ‘free-bee.’”
Don Meagher:
“That…that…that leachate arraignment was one of thee contractual agreements.”
Representative Bob Duchesne:
“As was, (Note to readers: Nest word was either ‘Part,’ or ‘Heart,’) of the provision of the word etc.. So, so in reality it’s not like you’re just sending them a check for nothing. You’re actually…It’s actually helping you pay for your Leachate.”
Don Meagher:
“No, because…”
Representative Bob Duchesne:
“O.K., So…”
Don Meagher:
“…Our arraignment with the Mills, since 2000…Errr…our…our contractual agreement with the State, and the States agreement with Georgia Pacific, the heart of all those obligations was: the Mill would treat Leachate from the landfill at no charge.”
Representative Bob Duchesne:
“Right. So, you’re sending the money for no charge and you’re treating you Leachate for no charge. (Long pause,) I think I got it.”
(People in room chuckle.)
Don Meagher:
“We’re…we’re…we’re…we’re…we’re sending them money to offset them not using the ‘C-N-D,’ wood fuel…one of the agreements, and their treating our Leachate at no charge.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“The last question I have, I promise, Ahhh…but you’re couple questions…on one topic, K.T.I.. What’s your capacity at K.T.I. right now?”
Dan Emery:
It’s between two hundred and two hundred and twenty thousand tons.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Thank you. And you said 90 percent of that is coming from out of state.”
Dan:
“Correct.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“What’s your…So, that’s your facility capacity, what’s your…Ahmmmmm…long term capacity… (pause) planning wise?”
Dan:
“I can’t answer that right now.”
(Representative Deshanie giggles.)
Dan:
“Obviously I wouldn’t want to go backwards, Ah…If anything, I’d rather be more efficient with (note to readers next word is either “wood,” or “what,” we’re processing now. So, I’d, oh, I’d go more than two hundred thousand…I’d say up to two hundred and fifty thousand is where we’d efficiently like to be for processing.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Do you need to see any…”
Dan:
“With our footprint.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Sure. So, if you…At what point are you going to trigger a new permit or (Note to readers: inaudible word here.) permit, or an (Note to readers: next word is inaudible. Sounds like: “under.” or “State.”) permit?”
Dan:
“Ah, we’re not currently…”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“No, no. Can you envision a point of capacity where you’ll have to go and revist your permits?”
Dan:
“In today’s economy, right now… no. (Medium pause.) Would I go after a permit for design changes? Absolutely, yeah.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“So, is your capacity a function of your site, or your equipment?”
Dan:
”Both.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“What’s your capacity at equipment?”
Dan:
(Note to readers: sounds like:) “Two hundred…twenty thousand eight hundred.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“So, they’re both? … O.K.. So, if you had a bigger site, based on the equipment you had you can’t really be increased in capacity? I see.”
Don Meagher:
“That was…That was one of the goals we had, Ahhh…that Dan deferred to, a facility in Westbrook, which we have had fully permitted and we’re really, Ahhh…literally, ahhhh…on…on the verge of breaking ground and simply decided, ahhh… that the regualroty environment was so uncertain, that we we’re going to go forth with the project. But the purpose there was, Ahhh…a facility with today’s equipment (pause) and more capacity.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“It wasn’t that. See…’Cuz, you were going to create some sort of ‘palletized trash,’ too…that was one of the …or was that?...”
Don Meagher:
“Ahhh…that was, that was, that was a separate project associated with ‘Maine Energy.’”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“I see, O.K.. Ummm…Any other questions? Representative Parkhurst?”
Representative James Parker:
“Old Town Fuel and Fiber. If you all of a sudden came up with a hundred thousand tons of wood; would they take it?”
Dan:
“No…Of C-N-D wood?”
Representative James Parker:
“…Or do they have a use for it?”
Dan:
“Of C-N-D wood?”
Representative James Parker:
“Yeah.”
Dan:
“No.”
Don Meagher:
“No…they…they…we…we…we were and are prepared to provide them with the ‘C-N-D,’ wood fuel, they have made the decision not to utilize that as a fuel.”
Representative James Parker:
“O.K… So they really don’t have a direct use for the fuel…right now.”
Don Meagher:
“Not with the equipment they have to use.”
Representative James Parker:
“Or what they’re using now.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Any other questions? Thank you. Thank you very much.”
(Room breaks out in laughter.)
Senator Seth Goodall:
“That’s the problem with contracting with the State. You have neogations in the open.”
(More laughter and giggling in the room.)
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Ahhh…D.E.P. …”
Susan Johannesman –Legislative Analyst for the Environmental Natural Resources Committee, on L.D. 693, L.D. 879, L.D. 1278 and L.D. 1458.
Susan Johannesman:
“Ahhmmm… What you have in front of you, from me at least, is a summary of thee four carry over bills that you have related to solid waste management. And, I…I…I know you have more going on here. More information that you’re going to be receiving, so…I’ll just…identify the four bills, so that you…all of you, are aware of what they are.
L.D. 693 is an Act concerning Solid Waste facilities, citizen advisory committees. That was a bill that was reported out of the committee. There was a form amendment to it. And it was then, Ummm…committed back to committee, and carried over. And that bill, deals with, Ummm…changes in Statue and thee, Ummm…resolve, dealing with solid waste facilities citizen advisory committees. Ummm…L.D. 879, is an act to ensure adequate Landfill capacity, in the State, for Solid Waste. And that is the bill that authorizes a commercial landfill facility, to expand; If the proposed expansion is continuous with the existing facility, and is located on property owned by the person holding the commercial Solid Waste disposal facility license. And it, Ummm…adds certain conduit…it includes certain conditions as well. When that can and cannot be accomplished.
L.D. 1278, an act to stabilize Solid Waste management funding. Again, this bill is carried over after public hearing and just an initial work session. And it creates a another account in the Maine Solid Waste: It imposes new fees. Ummm…on the disposal of ‘C.D.D.’ and ‘C.D.D. processing reside,’ As well as, imposing higher fees on waste water facility sludge, disposed at a Landfill, and, Ummm…other special waste, disposed of it, at Landfills.
L.D. 1458, is an act to transfer recycling technical assistance…( Note to readers: next single word was inaudible.)…policy and responsibilities from the State Planning Office, to the Department of Environmental Protection. And, well that proposes to do just what the title says. Ummm…and I think, as you all know, part ‘F.F.’ of the appropriations, ah…budget, or the budget for last year, also set up a working group, that has submitted to appropriations. Some language to, Ummm…disperse solid, ah…State Planning Office responsibilities and part of that includes the solid waste component.”
Tom Saviello:
“And what we’ll do is, we will, Ahhh…deal with all…Let Carlie speak on all the bills, and the Governors position. Because of one of the things we held these 4 bills for, the Central Committee, as I recall, they really wanted to know what…what the States’ policy is going to be on Landfills. So, they all kind of, tie into this, in some way or another. So that’s why we brought it back. That’s also why we brought 693 back to committee. So, it could be heard in this overall plan. Ummm…have Carlie go through all of them, and then I think my student, who’s student extraordinaire, George MacDonald…”
(Bob Duchesne laughs.)
Tom Saviello:
“…Will talk to us, a little bit about, some, Ummm…some of the issues and then be around for questioning. Then we will take each bill individually, ahhh…looking at the recommendations that the Governors’ made right now. And the two of them, that we may continue to work on. Ahhh…two of them, we may be able to move out of committee today. So, with that, is that O.K. with everybody? So, with that, I’m going to turn to Carlie and quick…” (Note to readers: last few words were inaudible.)
Carlisle McLean
Carlisle:
“Thank you Senator Saviello. (Note to readers: next salutation was inaudible.) Members of the Committee, Ummm…This is a testimony, I’m just going to walk you through, what we’ve done over the past 6 months or so: And where we are on some of the bills in front of you today. And also, offer an explanation as to why we want to hold off on two of those bills until a later date. Ummm…first, Ummm…the four bills that you held over, and doing so, as you had just indicated, Senator Saviello, you’d asked us to go back and just comprehensively look at policy. Meaning when there’s many of, Ummm…the impact of citizens, and regulated entities of the State. To get a fresh perspective on these issues.
Ahmmm…I think that, in the process, it’s been really interesting to see that people are very receptive to having an opportunity to share their thoughts and ideas, on this. I’ve also certainly learned a tremendous…”(Carlisle lightly chuckles and is complimented by Bob Duchesne’s signature giggle.)”…amount and appreciate the complexity of these issues, now; And every time I think I have it figured out…I don’t. So, I will do my best for you. Ummm…first I just wanna run through…I’ve submitted a letter to the committee, that articulates, Ummm…like where we are in the process, why we are taking this approach, four policy goals; and I’ve also attached a list of all of the entities that we’ve met with. The little bit of information about either each of those entities. A lot of that information is pulled from their websites, or from discussions that we’ve had with them. I’ve also attached, Ummm…and re-sented…”( Note to readers: like resent to you.)”…to, some proposed changes to one of the bills that’s before you. That I’ll get to a little bit later. But, I’ll just quickly, just for the record, Ummm…go through it and list all the folks that we’ve met with and spoke with. So, there’s four other windows. There currently four waste to energy facilities in the State, and we met with all four of them.
Ummm…Maine Energy Recovery Company, ‘-A MERC.’ Pennobscott Energy Recovery Company, ‘PERC.’ Eco-Maine and…” (Note to readers: sounds like, ‘M-LAC.’)”…Mid-Maine Waste Action Region. Ummm…we also, and just to clarify, Ummm…Our former Director of S.P.O….”(Note to readers: ‘S.P.O.’ translates into State Planning Office.)”…and I had been working on this. He did resign from that post; and since then I have been working, Ummm…with the Director of the Office of Energy Independence and Security, whose Ken Fletcher. Because a lot of these issues do relate to waste…to…to energy issues, which I’ll get back to a little bit later.
Ummm…in the landfill category, we’ve met with the CrossRoads facility in Norridgewock.
We’ve met with Juniper Ridge Landfill operators in Old Town.
We also met with the City of Bath Municipal Landfill. Ummm…And three of thee Aroostook facilities: The Saint John Valley region facility, The Tri-Community Landfill and the Presque Isle landfill. For compost facilities, we met with the Hoffberger compost facility, the Sandy River…River recycling association. Which is up in Farmington. And…and…and, kinda the other category, we’d met and visited with K.T.I., biofuels, Ummm…facility in Lewiston. Ummm…we did meet with the Juniper Ridge Landfill Advisory Committee, which is the consortium of towns as an ownership interest at P.E.R.C.. Ummm…We met with a handful of engineers…Including Sean Small, Jim Atwell, Randy Olm and also we’d met with Representative Jim Parker, as he has worked on these issues previously, in some capacity, in the private sector. Ummm…We also met with, Ummm…(Note to readers: next two words sounded like ‘Abutting crossroads.)”…Landfill, Gloria Fredrick. She also had an opportunity to sit with the Governor on these issues. Ummm…and we…we’re an ongoing discussion with the Department of Environmental Protection, and the State Planning Office; as well as the Office of Energy Independence and Security. We also had meetings with the impacted towns, so the town of Norridgewock, and the town of Old Town. And…when we were at Norridgewock, we did have the opportunity to meet with some of the town consols…councilors, as well as, the town manager…there. Ummm…So that…that…is quite….quite a road trip. As…but it was…”
Tom Saviello:
“Congratulations.”
(Bob Duchesne giggles.)
Carlisle:
“…Very, Ummm… enlightening. And as a way to get rid of some of the issues, As we normally try to do it. So, Ummm…I’m just going to walk through the Governors policies that we’ve, kinda worked through as we’ve talked to the individuals and researched on these issues. A lot of these policies are already in the State statue. Ummm…but, I think there’s a lot that just isn’t being done to achieve these policies. And so we’re hopeful that some proposed changes and the committee take some action, that we might be able to see some changes. For example, the recycling number that’s been stopped at around 38%, for years now, just as an example. So, the first…kin of way I’ve described this, is just to support and promote the existing waste hierarchy which is codified in statue already. But it is: ‘Reuse, reduce, recycle, incinerate, and landfill.’ Ummm…and we do want to put an emphasis on recycling and waste energy facilities. In that, Ummm…the Governor believes strongly that all waste should be put through a higher and better use. Ummm…it’s important to note that waste to energy facilities reduce, by 9 to 1, the amount of waste, that does get landfilled. But obviously the excess needs to go somewhere, so that does get landfilled. And these are the four…facilities, some middle…some that are actually get…” (Note to readers: Next two words were totally mumbled.)”…from the State. Ummm…we wanted…we want to support the hierarchy in Maine for Waste, and I think our position on one of the bills…today, as we will address, you’ll see that, we’re trying to do that.
We want to take a fresh look at the recycling program. Part ‘F.F.,’ as you’ve heard from the Commissioner of D.E.P., and just now from…”(Note to readers: next three words were said in an inaudible format.)”…in part F…Part ‘F.F.’ does transfer the recycling functions from S.P.O. to D.E.P.. We think this is an opportunity to take a fresh look at recycling and I did…I will get…we’ll…we’ll get to that a little bit more in a moment.
Ummm…the other comment on this on, I want to raise, is that your committee maybe where…that at, the Energy and Utilities Commission, L.D. 425 ‘An Act to stimulate demand for renewable resources,’ was carried over by that committee. And that is a…a bill that would impose an ‘R.P.S.,’ on Ummm…Ummm…waste to energy. And…what we think you should consider doing, is holding a joint meeting with that committee. To look at whether there might be something you could do with…the $1 fee that’s currently placed on ‘front-end,’ processed residue, and ash waste; that goes to landfills, that comes from waste-energy facilities.”
Tom Saviello:
“Yeah, no, that one’s is ah, we like to ah…talk to you about that. We’ve actually talked about that, between ‘Chairs,’ to have a sit down with you for a couple of minutes, to decide what the best way is to go is. And ah…so that…that we were on the same page and probably have a joint hearing on…”(Note to readers: rest of the sentence was said in an inaudible mannor.)
Carlisle McLean:
“We’re not proposing that and suggestions to L.D. 1278.”
Tom Saviello:
“Right…right.”
Carlisle McLean:
“that would be something both your committees would take up, and presumably to achieve multiple purposes. Ummm…the second policy goal, is to rigorously regulate landfill disposal…expansion. Emphasizing the significant value of each and every cubic yard, of every space that we have in this State.
We have met with the Attorney Generals, on several occasions, as well as, Read previous memo’s that have been provided to your committee, from the Attorney General’s Office…and it’s very clear that we have very little latitude under this constitution. The Congress clause, in terms how we regulate, or impose restrictions on out-of-state waste. Your committee has been through this issue. I know over the years, I’ve read through a lot of committee reports from the past 5 or 6 years. Ummm…but…we do think there are ways of controlling the waste stream. And assuring that we have…ahhh…responsible landfill capacity for…Mainers. Ummm…(pause.) It’s important to note that, you know, the administration does recognize that landfills host liabilities and maintenance cost. They’re also a key component of the waste stream. Ummm…And, they can produce energy as well. (Pause.) But we want to assure that we have adequate landfill space, Ummm…now and into the future; but that we closely monitor…”(Note to readers: next single word was inaudible.) “…that space. We also…it’s very important to note here, that we want to avoid, as…as already codified in Statue, monop…monopolistic outcomes.
Ummm…(Pause.) we want to assure a public…a robust public process, at all of these facilities in terms of how they are regulated. And Ummm…potentially look at, as we move forward, with some of the bills that we’re not willing to take up today, on whether there might be ways of taking a fresh look at the public benefit determination. And looking at D.E.P., on how we might be able to…(pause,) potentially tighten that up a little bit.
Ummmm…the fourth policy…or the third policy consideration is, to meet the States’ obligations at municipal landfills and state owned facilities. As you know, your committee passed and the Governor signed L.D. 2…Ummm…62, an act to extend eligibility for certain municipal landfills, to purchase…”(Note to readers: next word was either ‘re-a-mission,’ or ‘re-admission.’) over…quota…quadra program. But, description of the bill, says that when monies are available. And so, we think that some of the support we’re offering to one of the bills here today, could potentially help this State meeting some of those obligations. And in addition to that, Ummm…we are actively engaged in the Dolby issues, and I’m not prepared today to talk about details on that. But we do continue to look at that and work on how we can address the issues that, you are all very aware of at Dolby, Ummm…and that relates as well to assuring that we’ve met our obligations at these facilities. Ummm…and in related to this is finding existing refuge (Note to readers: next word was either : ‘industries,’ or ‘indescrepencies,’ was next word.)”…which is related to L.D. 1278, I’ll get into a moment. The last policy consideration is: whether to cease State ownership of landfills. This is, Ummm…certainly…ahhh…significant policy consideration, and we’re not proposing anything specifically right now. But, as we have worked with, Ummm…Folks around the State, and listen to people and observed some of the situations that have developed in these different locations. It’s clear that, Ummm…folks around the State and listen to people and observed some of the situations that have developed in these different locations. It’s clear that, Ummm…there are issues to be addressed at…for example: Ummm…the Juniper Ridge Landfill and the public input there. But, it…it doesn’t prevent our need to look at this, because…the Governor does re…remain concerned about…(pause.) the entity of the State being both the owner and regulator of that facility. Ummm…but we…we need to continue to look at that. Ummm…but we’re not proposing anything at this time, with regard to that. And honestly we care a lot about concerns, regarding importation of waste. So that would need to be considered, before we even move forward with that. (Pause.)
So, those are the four policy positions that we’ve reached and again a lot of this isn’t new. However, I think we’re ready to take them…some significant steps to try, ah…Ummm…promote some of these policy goals.
And if you’d like me to do so, Chair Saviello, I can go through our positions on three of the bills now. Or…”
Tom Saviello:
“Lets…do this…”
Carlisle McLean:
“…you could hear from George on this…”
Tom Saviello:
“We’re talk to George…”
Carlisle McLean:
“Yup.”
Tom Saviello:
“…and then we’re come back when this is all done.”
(Long Pause.)
Tom Saviello:
“You know if it helps you, you could put that right on the desk.”
(Note to readers:
“That,” being the tape recorder that is recording this entire public comment period taking place.)
Doug Papa:
“Really?”
Tom Saviello:
“Yeah.”
Doug Papa:
“Thank you, I appreciate that.”
(Bob Duchesne giggles.)
Tom Saviello:
“Although I had fun watching you stretching out and you’re doing gymnastics.”
(Room breaks out in laughter.)
Doug Papa:
“I’ll send you a copy when it gets published.”
Tom Saviello:
“Thank you.”
Doug Papa:
“You’re welcome.”
(Note to readers:
The laughter shifts indicating what I said really wasn’t funny, but more a response of hearing something ‘Geeky.’ Then suddenly uncomfortable silence sets in.)
(Medium pause.)
(Note to readers:
Doug Papa say’s “Hi,” to George Mac Donald, whom was interviewed a week prior.)
George MacDonald
George MacDonald:
“Good afternoon Senator Saviello…Representative Hamper, members of the Environment Natural Resources Committee. I’m George MacDonald. I currently manage the waste management and recycling program located at the State Planning Office. What is being passed out to you is the 2010 Waste Generation Disposing Capacity report; and my intent today is, just to walk quickly through it. I know a number of you will read it intently. (Note to readers: Bob Duchesne giggles here.) And will have questions at a later date. But again, given the hour and what is before you, I just like to walk through it. I’ll try to answer any questions you may have. (Pause.)
When you look at the cover…sheet, Ummm…what you’ll see is, just a pictorial display of how the waste, that was generated in the State of Maine, was managed in 2010. Exported 2.4%, landfilled 25.7. Sorry to make you yawn Senator.”
Senator Tom Saviello:
“That’s alright.” (Note to readers: Light giggles heard, along with Bob Duchesne’s signature giggle also heard here.)
George MacDonald:
“Waste to energy 33.2 and recycling…”
Senator Tom Saviello:
“I’ve had to put up with it for years though.” (Note to readers: Bob Duchesne laughs.)
George MacDonald:
“We used to do it to you!”
(George and other heartily laugh.)
George MacDonald:
“There were corners in that laboratory.”
(Note to readers:
Bob Duchesne and a few others laugh.)
George MacDonald:
“Ummm…This is very similar to prior waste generation’s disposal capacity reports. However, this year we focused more on the data, and we don’t go into discussions and possibilities as much as we had in the past. But, what I’d like to do is focus on the key findings; we’re start on page 4. In 2010, like the year before, and the year before that, we saw a decrease in the amount of solid waste generated, by the residents and businesses in the State, about a 3% decline.
The recycling tonnage. The efforts of municipalities and businesses in the State remain strong. But that dipped 1/10th of 1%. And when you look at what recycling really is, is a movement of product. It could be that many tons were actually collected for recycling in 2010 as in 2009; but just weren’t marketed because a low time to shipped yet.
And it could be, you know, the reverse of 2009, you’re able to get more off 2008, so…but when you look at the long range in the last several years, the recycling rate has been around 39% consistent.”
Tom Saviello:
“George can I ask you about that?”
George MacDonald:
“Yes.”
Tom Saviello:
“If you don’t mind. WE, Bob and I, went down to K.T.I., and saw a significant change in their recycling program. Which is outstanding. Talking about, sharing that with the other members of the Committee, does that calculate, into what’s been recycled?”
George MacDonald:
“We are not including in our tonnage, thee, Ummm…residue form K.T.I. that’s going to Juniper Ridge, as “alternative daily cover.” That’s hasn’t been something that’s been historically included. So, at any landfill, where a waste is being used instead of natural product, we haven’t been including that in the recycling.
The tradition has been, to use the traditionally recycled materials…as the tonnage of us being recycling. We don’t include, for example, the grass that’s mowed beside the road…and left.
1 pm at the transportation committee on 2/14/12
According to
125th Maine Legislatue
Second regular session -2012
Legislative Document No.1671 S.P. 570 In Senate, Decembert 21,2011
An Act to Provide Funding to the Departmnent of Transportation for a Feasibility Study of an East-West Highway.
(Emergency.) Approved for introduction by a majority of the Legislarive Council pursuant to Joint Riule 203.
Reveived by the Secretary of the Senate on December 19, 2011. Referred to the committee on Appropriations and Financial Affairs pursuant to Joint Rule 308.2 and ordered printed pursuant to Joint rule 218.
Joseph G. Carleton, Jr. Secretary of the Senate.
Presented by Senator Thomas of Somerset.
Cosponsored by Representive Turner of Burlington and
Senators: KATZ of Kennebec, LANGLEY of Hancock, MARTIN of Kennebec, PLOWMAN of Penobscot, Prresident RAYE of Washington, SHERMAN of Aroostook, SNOWE-MELLO of Androscoggine, Representives: CLARK of Millinocker, CUSHING of Hampden, HAYES of Buckfield, WALLACE of Dexter.
1 Emergency preamble. Whereas, acts and resolves of the Legislature do not
2 become effective until 90 days after adjournment unless enacted as emergencies; and
3 Whereas, this legislation provides funds in fiscal year 2011-12 to cover the costs
4 associated with an independent feasibility study if an east-west highway; and
5 Whereas, in the judgement of the Legislature, these facts create an emergency within
6 the meaning of the Constitution of Maine and require the following legislation as
7 immediatley necessary for the preservation of the public peace, health and safety; now,
8 therefore,
9 be it enacted by the People of the State of Maine as follows:
10 Sec. 1. Approproiations and allocations. The following appropriations and
11 allocations are made.
12 TRANSPORTATION, DEPARTMENT OF
13 Highway and Bridge Capital 0406
14 Initiative: Provides a one-time General Fund Appropriation of $300,000 in fiscal year
15 2011-12 to the Department of Transportation to cover the costs assoiciated with an
15 independent feasibility study of an east-west highway.
17
18 GENERAL FUND 2011-12 2012-13
19 All Other $300,000 $0
20 __________ ________
21 GENERAL FUND TOTAL $300,000 $0
22 Emergency clause. In view of the emergency cited in the preamble, this
23 legislation takes effect when approved.
24 SUMMARY
25 This bill includes a one-time General Fund appropriation of $300,000 in fiscal year
26 2011-12 to the Department of Transportation to cover the costs associated with an
27 independent feasibility study of an east-west highway.
Page 1- 125LR2358(01)-1
End of reproduction of Document obtained at the Maine State House.
Chris Buchanan Defending Water for Life, in middle of a press conference.
Chris : “…Water from being privatized or co-modified. So one of the…”
Don Carrigan : “Meaning your water being sold?”
Chris : “Mined for profit, out of local communities. That’s what Defending Water for Life is about.”
Don Carrigan : “O.K..”
Chris : “Water for Life, not for profit. Ummm…and the reason why we decided to organize the rally is because we’re really concerned that with this ‘East-West Highway proposal. Ummm…it would open the North Woods of Maine for further exploitation of water, wood and gravel resources, and a raw material context. So, we’re concerned that, Ummm…the materials are going to be leaving this state, not even in a value added…as a value added product. Ummm…which means, that Maine is being used as a through way and not being for local economic vitality. One of the…”
Don Carrigan : “Excuse me.”
Chris : “Sure.”
Don Carrigan : “And you said, you’re concerned about water, but also gravel?”
Chris : “Yeah, we’re also concerned about gravel and woods. But, the primary purpose of Defending Water for Life is to focus on water. Because it is needed for life and therefore putting a value on it, automatically inhibiting access to people. A necessary thing like air.”
Norm Karkos : “So is the point of the whole thing, that the ‘East-West Highway,’ Ummm…accommodates more rapid, more, ah, easier transportation of these commodities? Is that what you’re saying?”
Chris : “That’s one of our main points. Yes. Ummm…That the “east-West Highway,’ would be…its primary a corridor for industry. The number that we’ve heard, from a reliable source is, that they are going to charge $75, for a toll. So folks that are talking that this being economic, ah, stimulus for Maine, Ummm…that’s actually not what the purpose is going to serve. As a private toll road, we do think it’s going to be economically viable for the owner of the toll road. Whose going to be a private corporation. Probably the Cianbro corporation. They’re the ones who have been working on this project for many, many years.”
Glen Adam, from the Associated Press : “Do you plan on offering testimony this afternoon?”
Chris : “Yes, and actually I do have copies of that in my vehicle that I can bring out for you guys.”
Don Carrigan : “And you’re working as a coalition with several other groups?”
Chris : “There are a number of other groups. Ummm…that we’ve contacted, and that stand in solidarity. Ummm…Friends of the Boundary Mountains, Code Pink. We talked to people from ‘Bring our War Money Home,’ Earth First, the N.R.C.M.. They’ve got their hands full with some other stuff today. But they’re also in solidarity with this. I’ve been working against it for a long time.”
Don Carrigan : “So, excuse me, ‘Bring our War Dollars Home,’ is involved with you too?”
Chris : “Yeah. Because, we’re looking at what money is being spent on and what the priorities of the state are. And when we look at this highway, it’s really a demonstration of where we want to focus our efforts on in Maine. Ummm…building another highway, where we’re going to be burning more fossil fuels, when we’re facing increased fuel costs. Ummm…and possibly the, you know, a day when we’re not going to be having oil, Umm…seems like a really poor choice for directing Maine citizens and any sort of infrastructure that’s going to permanently damage the environment.”
Q : “Can I get your name?”
A : “I’m Glen Adam from ‘A.P.’”
Q : “From where?”
A : “A.P..”
Q : “O.K., O.K., I got to get this guys’ name. Excuse me sir, can I get your name?”
Don Carrigan : “Why don’t I…what’s your name?”
Q : “Doug Papa.”
Don Carrigan : “And what do you do Doug?”
Q : “ I write for an online magazine. This is…”
Don Carrigan : “Say it again.”
Q : “I write for an online magazine. This is from an ongoing series.”
Don Carrigan : “I see, O.K..”
Q : “I just want to get your name for the transcription.”
Don Carrigan : “My name is Don Carrigan.”
Q : “Thank you Don. I appreciate that. And that’s, errr…NewsCenter, ah…”
Don Carrigan : “We’re WCHS Television.”
A : “Thanks I appreciate that.”
(At this point Chris Buchanan is heard talking in the background.)
Chris : “…A private project…Ummm…$300,000 that initially fund this. The Federal government of by private funders is what Senator Thomas proposed. And that’s how it made it into Emergency Legislation. Ummm…but now they are asking money from the General Fund. And the General Fund comes from Maine Tax Payers. Ummm…When we’re facing cuts in Social Security, Ummm…and, ah, Education, and other social services, it doesn’t seem to me, to make a lot of sense to use taxpayer money to fund a private toll road. Ummm…again the toll will cost $75. Ummm…and it will be used primarily for Canadian transport trucks. It will run from Calais to Colburn Gore, And not even connected in with Maine Ports. We’re talking about, Ummm…Canadian ports. Ummm…where resources from…Imports and Exports from Canada will be using this road to go straight across Maine. It will still be…make sense for them to not have to go around the State. Ummm…but for Mainers, we will just be getting a huge road. Ummm…pollution. Ummm…Infrastructure development through some land that we believe needs to be, Ummm…for Maine people to live on.”
Norm Karkos : “so it’s a combination of the economics and conservation. Of your perspective, of the conservation, what are you most concerned about?”
Chris : “Ummm…we’re really concerned about…Ummm…first of all, opening up that…Ummm…area for more exploitation of raw materials. Ummm…Including bulk water, ah, timber, and gravel, primarily. Ummm…We’re also concerned that, Ummm…in order to fund the highway, that they would be considering it as a ‘super corridor.’ So that they might run something like a pipeline along it, or transmission lines to further industrial wind projects. Ummm… ah, which would also just again be using Maine for, Ummm…resources that are leaving the state, and Maine not getting any money out of that.”
Don Carrigan : “Are you and your other organizations, are you opposed to all expanded commercial use of, ah, that part of Maine?”
Chris : “Absolutely not. Ummm…I think, that when we talk about commercial use, Ummm…we want to look at what is going to support people long term. And we’re about supporting people long term. And we’re about supporting local community development and local economic viability. And you do that, by supporting small businesses. Ummm…revitalizing businesses in towns. Ummm…and…ummm…self employment initiatives. You certainly don’t do it by opening up a corridor that will increase access for multinational corporations to take our raw materials out and and leave us with very little to do those activities on.”
Don Carrigan : “Yeah, supporters as you know, of this concept, have said for years that, it would give, ah, northern and rural parts of the state more access to Canadian, but particular U.S. markets and therefore would help those kinds of businesses grow.”
Chris : “Right. Ummm…I know that is what has been said. Ummm…I think if they’re looking at paying $75 to hop on the toll road, Ummm…to go see their neighbor, that’s probably not who it’s for.”
Norm Karkos : “Is there some sort of compromise, you’re going to reach between the two; between your side and their side here? Is there something you’re looking for a ‘happy medium,’ here? Of is this just something on one extreme to the other here?”
Chris : “Ummm…I think for us, Ummm…when we’re talking about building the highway, we’re opposed to it, through and through. Ummm…the idea, again of, you know, creating a large highway. Which is just going to be encouraging the burning of more fossil fuels, when we are facing, ‘peak oil,’ is not the direction that we think that is good for Maine, or Maine’s people. And we think it would really harm Maine’s identity, and the heart of people live here for.”
Don Carrigan : “And can you expand on your issue about water and such?”
Chris : “Absolutely. Ah, Defending Water for Life in Maine is an Organization that works to protect water from privatization and co- modification. Ummm…water is for life. Water is not something that should be sold for profit. Just like air should not be sold for profit. Ummm…it was a number of years ago, people started pushing bottled water, saying that drinking water was dirty. Here in Maine we do have some of the best water in the world. And it’s been liked to. You know, a Texas of oil. Ummm… like a Saudi Arabia in oil, Maine is like that with water. Their next ‘Blue Gold’s.’ We want to make sure it’s here for people and not sold to companies like Nestle, who definitely have a lot of straws in Maine already, Ummm…for profit.”
Don Carrigan : “You have no doubt that this would allow for more water to be taken out?”
Chris : “Absolutely.”
Jim Freeman : “Don, I’m with this group. It’s yeah. In Grand Lake stream, you got all this area. There’s tons and tons of fresh water in this area.”
Don Carrigan : “But they could go after it now. Obviously.”
Jim : “No. They put a pipe…They want to put in a pipeline.”
Don Carrigan : “How do you know?”
Jim : “Well that’s part of the original plan. There’s five things in this corridor.”
Don Carrigan : “O.K..”
Jim : “O.K.. Interstate highway. An L.N.G. pipeline.”
Don Carrigan : “MM-Hun.”
Jim : “A water line. A rail line and a utility grid. A utility corridor, which will ‘T’ off in Costigan, or at the interstate and go south.”
Don Carrigan : “Do you oppose all five of those?”
Jim : “Ah, no. I don’t oppose the rail line.”
Don Carrigan : “Mm-Hun.”
Jim : “The rail line of course. But I do oppose the water line, and I do oppose L.N.G., which is going to go across the state. It’s not going to go to any entities in state. So, it’s a resource extraction. That’s what it’s all about. Gravel will go to Europe to repave roads. Wood pellets will go to Europe to be mixed with coal, for the, ah, to stay within the coal plants in Europe to stay in the Kyoto agreement. And water is going to be the next oil. And just water, by the boatload literally.”
Don Carrigan : “Alright, thank you.”
Jim : “You’re welcome.”
Q : “Excuse me sir, can I get your name for the transcription?”
Norm Karkos : “My name is Norm Karkos from News 8.”
Q : “Thanks I appreciate that Norm.”
Norm Karkos : “Where are you from?”
Q : “Ah, I work for an online magazine and, ah, I’m just doing transcriptions. Just part of the, ah…”
Norm Karkos : “O.K..”
Q : “Thanks. I appreciate that.”
Norm Karkos : “O.K..”
Interview with Jim Freeman
Q : “Ah, I’m talking to Jim Freeman. Now Jim…”
A : “MM-Hun.”
Q : “This is…Is this going to be a private toll road?”
A : “Private toll-road, my understanding, and it’s going to be a $75 toll. And when people say, ‘Oh-oh, all that money.’ But right now trucks are coming down from Canada on Route 9. They’re going onto the interstate in Bangor. They go down through Maine, New Hampshire, onto the Mass Turnpike. Go across Massachusetts, to the New York Through-way, and go up to Montréal and Chicago that way. So this will save them tons and tons of miles. And tons and tons of Diesel fuel.”
Q : “Only like two hours through it’s going to save them, right?”
A : “Oh-no, it will save them more than that. You look at the route.”
Q : “O.K..”
A : “It’s going to go right across Maine, upper Vermont, New Hampshire, New York State, right onto Chicago.”
Q : “Oh.”
A : “And they’re going to bring…The primary thing they’re going to bring there would be containers, Ummm…with Target and Wal-Mart. You know, they’ll bring containers there to send to the Mid-West.”
Q : “Oh, I’m sorry. I meant it’s going to save the Canadian Maritime Providences two hours to go onto Montreal.”
A : “Oh yeah, for sure. For sure, yeah. You’re right there, exactly.”
Q : “O.K.. Now is the State Police going to be able to patrol this, or since this is a private road, is there going to be no police presence?”
A : “No, they’re probably have State Police presence in there. But they’re probably get a private thing. But they’re probably contract out with the State Police, you know. But it’s mostly going to be truck traffic. It won’t be like ’95.’” (Chuckles.)
Q : “Right, well about that…Do you remember the issue I brought up about the Bath Salts?”
A : “Yeap.”
Q : “And so forth?”
A : “Yeap.”
Q : “You know, Maine Maritime Providences going straight to Montreal.”
A : “Oh yeah, oh yeah.”
Q : “You know, it’s the same insinuation I made.”
A : “They’re love it. They’re love it. And you are probably correct with that. They’re love it. So, (chuckles.) I think your instincts are right on.”
Q : “So it will probably be non-stop, you know, illegal substances going from one end of Canada…”
A : “Right.”
Q : “…Cutting through Canada, so they’re bypassing…”
A : “Yup. Yup. Yup.”
Q : “So they won’t have to deal with the Mounties.”
A : “Right.”
Q : “And they will just deal with the State Police who…”
A : “Right. And it’s going to be used, you know, they’ll have that under the guise of resources and trucking and…you know, but, it’s mostly for trucks. They’re be cars, but how many people go that route? How many people drive from Calais to Colburns Gore? (Chuckles.) You know, they don’t. they come from Calais down to Bangor, shop and do whatever. But it’s not designed to do that, at all. So, it’s definitely an industrial corridor.”
Q : “So do you think it is kinda, ironic, they say it’s a total private way to do this, but they are asking the State for $300,000? And once again, after they…”
A : “I think that’s another scam. (Chuckles.) Another scam. I bet you the feasibility study is already done. So they are just going to get reimburse.”
Q : “So do you think they are taking money out of the scenic by pass/ scenic highway money fund to fund this?”
A : “I don’t know where they are going to get it, but I hope they don’t try that. Because that brings tourists into the state, you know, from other states, for the scenic bypass. People look at those routes come here specially to drive those ways. And they’re trying to cut that, slash, just axe that whole budget. It’s ridiculous for that.”
Q : “What do you think of the pollution through? Like the run off the oil and gas, and all that, going into the Kennebec and Penobscot river?”
A : “Yeah, that’s an issue, but I don’t think it’s much of an issue, once they take all the resources. They’re polluting the hell out of that already. You know, they’re pumping out all the gravel. Taking all the trees , and taking all the water. It’s all polluting, you know, everything.”
Q : “Oh yeah, just incidentally, I still haven’t heard from Ken Fletcher, from the Department of Energy, about the, ah…”
A : “Surprising. And the other thing about the ‘East-West Highway,’ is that it will expedite many, many more windmills. Because it will give windmills an easy ‘tie-in,’ into the grid. Which they don’t always have now.”
Q : “Now did you read that ‘open letter to Pattie Aho,’? About the Florida Power and Light? How she messed up on the Flagship Lake project?”
A : “I did not read that.”
Q : “O.K.. Sean Mahoney, form the Conservative Law Foundation.”
A : “Conservation Law Foundation. Yup, Yup.”
Q : “Ah, Conservation Law. He sent an open letter to Pattie Aho, because she had intentionally or not intentionally messed up. And now Florida Power and Light has…is not going to have any, ah, interference from the state for the next 25 years.”
A : “Right.”
Q : “Because of a Licenses agreement, and that’s what Sean was complaining about.”
A : “Right. Right. He had a good point. He had a real good point.”
Q : “Now is it kinda consequential that the ‘East-West Highway,’ might be going near that, ah…”
A : “Landfill?”
Q : “Nope, nope. Ah, the Hydro Dam from Flagship Lake.”
A : “Yeah. They’ll just tie that into the grid. It’s also consequential it’s going by the Juniper Ridge Landfill. They’ll be able to bring stuff right into Juniper Ridge, on the Highway.”
Q : “Aaaahhhhh…”
(Note to readers. I’m catching on at this point to the Juniper Ridge Landfill Connection.)
A : “No secondary roads, which is a problem right now. You know, the secondary roads. There was just an accident on Bennoch road. (Note to readers. I Doug Papa messed up royalty in part 4 by printing Bennett Road, during the Jim Freeman Interview. It is actually the Bennoch Road.) There’s been different things happening on Bennoch Road. They want to get it all of the secondary Roads and put it on the highways. So it’s all tied. It’s all tied.”
Q : “O.K..”
A : “Thanks.”
Q : “Thanks.”
Interview with Diane Messer
Q : “O.K..I actually posted the interviews, online for free, at Big Time Music Trade .com.”
A : “Un-Hun.”
Q : “You click on articles and you click on…(Note to readers this part has been omitted, due to the changing of ArchEnemys 6,7,8 and 9. To the Occupy Augusta Interviews 1, 2,3, and 4.) I actually did the interview we did, for the Governor of Maine’s Press, ah, ah, it’s actually consequential. But three people retired since these interviews began. We had, ah…”
A : “Which three?”
Q : “Don, ah, Don, ah, Darryl Brown from the State Planning Office.”
A : “Yeah, Yeah.”
Q : “I contacted Edie Smith over at the Maine Fish and Wildlife. I called them again…”
A : “You know who we need to retire? Patricia Aho.”
Q : (Chuckles.) “Yeah. But ah, ah, but last week, ah, ah, Peter Rodgers from the Governors Press, ah, the Governors Communications Director put in his two weeks’ notice.”
A : “Seriously?”
Q : “Yes.”
A : “And what was his reason?”
Q : “Ah, I didn’t get it from him. But I did get it from another individual. I’m not going to say his name, but he’s got, I guess he’s got two little ones at home and this job’s taking like 80/90 hours from his work week and so forth.”
A : “Ah-Yeah.”
Q : “So, he wants to spend more time and stuff like, like. He’s actually help me get a real interview with ah, when she gets off of vacation, Samantha De Pom, hyphen, I forget what the other half of her name is, of the Maine Department of Environmental Protection. To grant an email response about everything about the Occupy Augusta Interviews and so forth.”
A : “Ah-Ha! Interesting. Well you’ve been busy.”
Q : “Yeah. I’ve been kinda, hypothetically twisting some arms. Because I’ve been threatening to…”
A : “Good, twist some more.”
Q : (Chuckles.) “Yes. Yes.”
A : “Well, metaphorically speaking.”
Q : “Right. Right. Right, so, do you want to talk about what’s going on here today?”
A : “Ah, well, there is a proposal that they’ve turned into an Emergency for an ‘East-West Highway.’ Why is a study, a proposal for a study, an Emergency? Very good question. They said, ‘Well, it’s just a study.’ Then it should not have an emergency note on it. Ah, we suspect there are other Ulterior motives. Possibly a pipeline that’s going to be a right of way for the, ah, toll-road. It’s going to benefit the users. It’s going to be a Canadian conduit to carrying cargo. It’s not going to benefit the state of Maine. Somebody’s going to be Making Plenty of money off the tolls and the construction, but it’s not going to be Mainers.”
Q : “Well I read online, that ah, a million trucks might be going through that a year. If you times that by $75 each truck, that’s probably going to surpass the billion dollars, that’s going to cost Cianbro to manufacture this, ‘East-West Highway.’”
A : “Huh. Well whose going to get the money?”
Q : “It’s toll road, private, so it’s going to be Cianbro.”
A : “Yeah. So, ah, why’s it an ‘emergency,’?”
Q : “And why do they need public funds, on another study since the last one was done back in 1998?”
A : “Yeap. Well you know more about it than I do. Sorry. Ha-Ha! You need to find somebody else to interview. Sorry about that. I…I can only spread myself so thin. I’m on a number of other issues. And very busy working on the ‘Foreclosure bill,’ ah L.D. 145.”
Q : “Do you want to go into detail about that?”
A : (Signs.) “I’m tired. I got 4…3 hours sleep last night. I’m burning on fumes. No, I…I finished when the sky was starting to getting a little bit light. And I said, ‘I got to at least get a 3 hour nap, before I go out there today.’”
Q : “Well how about an email response latter on like, ah, when you get a chance and some more sleep in the future?”
A : “O.K. sure.”
Q : “O.K. Diane. Thanks, I appreciate that.”
A : “You’re welcome. Take care.”
Q : “You too.”
Doug Talking into tape recorder
Doug : “O.K.. I’m going to read off a couple of signs here, that the people are saying. It’s says, ah: ‘Kiss your stupid mountains good-bye. Bulk money for private roads.’ Next sign says: ‘Jobs, Jobs, Jobs, Jobs, Jobs, Jobs, (All six of them.)’ That’s a good one. Ah, ‘Money for the road, robs our homes.’ Next sign says: ‘Yes public service. No East-West Highway.’ Next sign says: ‘No East-West, while Maine Care goes South?’ Next Sign says: ‘Environmental devastation is not feasible.’ Next sign, Paul Schroeder sign: ‘No more roads, ever.’ Ah next sign says: ‘No public money for private projects.’ Next sign says: ‘No taxpayer money for private East-West Highway.’ The big sign – two people, saying: ‘No East-West Highway.’ It shows, ah, Maine being squished by an ‘East-West Highway.’ And we got three bowls. One shows pipes. Next one shows water and the next one shows money. And then we got the last sign, is a Maine illustration with a yellow strip going across for the ‘East-West Highway.’ Can I get your name for the transcription?”
Interview with Chris Buchanan.
A : “This is…I’m Chris Buchanan, and I organize with, ‘Defending Water for Life,’ for in Maine.”
Q : “O.K.. And , ah, Chris do you mind if I ask you a couple of questions or are you? O.K.. O.K.. Ah, my name is Doug Papa, and I’ve been writing an online series for an online magazine called: ‘The Occupy Augusta Interviews.’ I’ve been interviewing Diane, Will, ah, Jim Freeman and also Hillary Lister and Paul McCarrier.”
A : “Great.”
Q : “And this has been going on since October, and so forth. And it’s probably going to be going on for a long-time and, so forth. The “East-West Highway.’ Now are you surprised that Cianbro is boasting, that this is all private; yet they are asking the state for $300,000; even through in 1998 they got $400,000 for a similar study?”
A : “Ummm…I am surprised that they are boasting about that. Ummm…I’m surprised they’re boasting about it being a private project. And that Senator Doug Thomas is going around, Ummm…actively lying about to communities about whose going to pay for it/ where the money is coming from. So, just on January23rd, he made a presentation to the Dover-Foxcroft select board. Ummm…and told them the money would not be coming from taxpayers. Ummm…when he has…he knows…he knew at the time the money would be coming from the General Fund, and that is coming from taxpayers. So anyway…”
Q : “So it’s not coming from the, ah, The money ‘Scenic Highways fund?’”
A : “No, it’s not.”
Q : “O.K….O.K..O.K.. Yeah, so I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to interrupt you there. I just had to clarify that.”
A : “That’s alright. No it’s not. It’s coming from the General Fund. Ummm…which is…which…you know, when Senator Doug Thomas originally tried to put this through, Ummm…the committee, so it would be considered as an emergency bill. He said, ‘It would be either funded by Federal money or private money; And that it would it would only be an emergency situation that they have to look at the General Fund.’ Well, now we are looking at the General Fund. Ummm…and it seems like an absurd time to spend taxpayer money on a private project. Especially when that private project will not only be good for Maine, it’s going to be devastating to Maine. Ummm…”
Q : “Now on that same note, before we move forward.”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “Ah, do you think the study, already been…not official, but in your opinion, do you think that the study has already been done from Cianbro and their other partner? I forget, the…it was online. I guess they teamed up with someone to do a study on their own staff time. Do you think the study is already done and they’re just trying to get the money so they can pocket it and so forth?”
A : “The problem with the study that already exists is, it isn’t an ‘investor grade,’ study. And to be honest, I’m not sure what the distinction is.”
Q : “Well, do you think they did their own study on top of the 1998 study and they are just trying to get the money for themselves so they can pocket it?”
A : “I know…”
Q : “Unofficially through.”
A : “I know, that they are trying to get the money so they can pocket it.”
Q : “O.K.. O.K..”
A : “I’m not sure about what the status is of them having a study. And I actually try not to speculate too much about things I haven’t seen, because I feel the facts speak for themselves.”
Q : “Right. Well I just…because I went online yesterday. And it like, ah…I think it was tollroads.com or tollroads.net.”
A : “Yeah, the toll…Yeap.”
Q : “And they did like a huge article about that. And they said, that Cianbro was using own staff time to do the study. And it’s like, well if they are using their own staff time, and they are using their money, How come they need a hundred…$300,000 from the state to do another study, on top of the studies that are already out there?”
A : “Right. So my guess is that they would be…Ummm…I need…I have to look at that article. I’m not sure if I’ve seen that one. Ummm…but, my guess is that the study they are doing isn’t quote / unquote, ‘good enough, for the extent of the project.’ But that they’re investing some time if it makes sense for them as an investment. So, what it looks like to me now, from what you said, is that, Ummm…they did enough of a study to figure out that it’s an investment worth making. And so now they know they need an investment grade study, so they are asking taxpayers to pay for it.”
Q : “Do you think Mainers will even profit from this, ‘East-West Highway’?”
A : “No. I actually think that it’s going to take a lot” of money, Ummm…out of the state and impact Maine in a way that’s going to be irrecoverable. So some reason…one of the big reasons that people live in Maine is because it’s beautiful and it has amazing resources. And that’s a big part of the identity of the state. So, when we talk about this highway, that’s going to extract raw materials mostly from multi-national corporations…we’re talking about Irving, Trans-Canada, Plum Creek…Ummm…Cianbro is a Maine based company and they are going to own the toll road. And that’s a whole separate matter. But the people who are going to be exporting resources, from it, are also Nestle. That money doesn’t stay here. That money isn’t going to Maine people. They don’t spend their profits here and they don’t pay taxes here. Ummm…so in the meantime, for all of” that goodness, that makes ‘Maine,’ Maine, leaving the state, Ummm…we’re actually taking away the local economic viability for people, that might do value added products on the land, of might be able to have a homestead there. Or might want to have a community there, with like, a downtown district that attracts tourism. Ummm…I think it’s really going to harm tourism. Ummm…which is a huge boost to the Maine economy every year. Ummm…to have the…”
Q : “So instead of having people coming from out-of-state to get away from that, they are going to” be like: ‘Why should I leave my state, because Maine is turning into the environment, as in the state I’m in right now? Why should I spend the gas money’?”
A : “Yeah, exactly. It’s just, if it’s another state that’s just stripped of resources, and Ummm…full of business friendly infrastructure. And when I say, ‘business,’ I mean like multi-national corporation business. Ummm…I don’t mean local business. Because it’s local business that does attract tourism. Ummm…and it does attract more people to live here. That want to spend money here and be here and” invest in the beauty of our state. Ummm…this is just clearly, clearly not that.”
Q : “Now do you think…what…I heard that there might not be any on ramps or off-ramps on this. Have you heard the same thing?”
A : “I have heard the same thing. Ummm…I do” know they’ll be having an on and off on ramp at Brownville Junction. So, they can connect with the rail yard there, because that’s the one of the main rail yards in central Maine. Ummm…which again, is just very obvious how pro-industry it is. Ummm…but other than that they might have a couple just for gas refueling stations. Ummm…which we expect to be owned by Irving / run by Irving.”
Q : “So you don’t think they’re going to just have them too roads, the gas stations right on the highway so they won’t even have the on ramps and off ramps?”
A : “Yeah, that’s what we expect.”
Q : “O.K.. O.K..”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “So do you think ah…what do you think about the police presence is going to be on the highway, if this actually goes through?”
A : “Well, if there…if there was a police presence, that would again be taxpayer money going to fund a private project that doesn’t benefit us. They’d be monitoring Canadian transport trucks, going, you know, in and out of Maine, with their goods. It doesn’t serve any protection for people of Maine or ‘serve us,’ in any way. Other than taking our money.”
Q : “Right. Well, the reason why I brought that up, because , is, I’m not insinuating anything. But it’s just a coincidence how A) You know, dealing with a different highway. Ah, are you familiar with the Juniper Ridge Landfill?”
A : “Ah, yes!”
Q : “O.K.. Now we got Bath Salts have been banned. We got all these out of state container trucks coming in. And all of a sudden, Bam! Bangor’s been hit with a Bath Salt problem, that’s beyond belief.”
A : “Mm-hun. Mm-hun.”
Q : “And now, we’re going to have an ‘East-West Highway,’ going from the Maine maritime providences, and it’s going to go straight through Maine. To save truckers two hours. It’s going to bypass the Canadian Mounted Police, and otherwise they would have to go through the Saint Lawrence Valley Highway, ah, then go straight to Montreal. Which is going to be straight to Detroit and so forth. And it’s like, well, if there’s not going to be that big of a police presence, or if there is a police presence on that ‘East-West Highway,’ how many trucks are they going to pull over and how much illegal stuff could actually go through. And, is this …Yeah! What do you think about that?”
A : Well, I think that’s an interesting consideration that I had not thought about. I would have to think about that more.”
Q : “What do you think about it right now?”
A : “Ummm…I think that, ah, in that way, of it being a through way also, Ummm…it’s highly possible that you’d be increasing trafficking of illegal substances across the state. I don’t know if it would increase distribution in the State. Again, because there’s not going to be much access to the local people or the local economies.”
Q : “But there has to be one.”
A : “But there only has to be one. So…”
Q : “And if it’s Bath Salts. Which probably might not be illegal in the Maritimes. I’m not sure of the Maritime laws. Then we might fac3e even a bigger problem with Bath Salts. Thanks to the new ’East-West Highway,’ that people really aren’t supporting.”
A : “Right, yeah. That’s absolutely true. Ummm…I think that it could definitely create that as an issue, and I appreciate you bringing that up.”
Q : “No you mentioned Nestle. They’re ah…when I worked for the Maine Marijuana Initiative Policy in Lewiston. It was way back in, I think it was like 2006 or 2007. Ah, Nestle was a big thing about exporting water out of state. Are they the big pushers with the water pipe line, for the water going to Europe?”
A : “You know, they’ve been really quiet. So, I’m not sure if Nestle is specially at the table for that. Ummm…I don’t have those resources to say that one way or another. But I know it’s Nestle that wants to export Bulk water around the world, so that they can profit it. They are already the largest water bottler in the world. They already have, I can’t remember, I don’t know if it’s 8 or 11 sites in Maine where they are mining water and selling it under the guise of ‘Poland Spring.’ Ummm…so, you know, just furthering…right now it’s very cost prohibited to be trucking water. It’s, you know, it’s heavy, it takes a lot of gas. Even to truck water to the existing bottling plants they have, is one of their only expenses. But if they had a super corridor, where they could be extracting water and moving it in Bulk, onto ships, and just get it right out of Maine and into their global markets. I think they would be” very pleased with that.”
Q : “And when you say, ‘bulk,’ you’re talking the pipeline?”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “And when they extract water, do the community wells have a decrease in their water as well?””
A : “Absolutely. The way that ground water works, is when water is extracted from an aquifer, it lowers the ground water table in that spot. So, if it’s at all close to, any sort of, you know, stream, pond, it will lower. It all lowers. So a company like Nestle which is pumping, you know, usually a few hundred thousand gallons a day. I think about 250,000 to four hundred some thousand is average. That’s massively reducing the water table in an area. So, in Fryeburg actually, their pumping has made Lovewell Pond get much warmer.”
Q : “What Pond?”
A : “Lovewell Pond in Fryeburg. So, they’re pumping a lot of the spring water out. Which is increasing the temperature of the water. The water is getting warmer.”
Q : “So that’s going to affect the fish.”
A : “Oh yeah, absolutely. It affects the fish and it has affected the pond. There has been allergy blooms, and the water has changed dramatically since this…”
Q : “So with the Allergy blooms, that means it’s not very drinkable after that.”
A : “Well, they’re still pulling the springs water out. What they are doing is, is pulling the spring water out that keeps the lake colder and cleaner. So, the lake its’ self is not where they are getting drinking water from. But they are pulling from the springs that feed the lake. If that makes sense.”
Q : “O.K., O.K.. This…I’m sorry. I’m a little shocked here.”
A : (Laughs.)
Q : “Now how about other companies , like ah, you think like, ‘Coca-Cola or Pepsi’ that use water and so forth?”
A : “Coca-Cola and Pepsi both use water, but primary they get their water from, actually, like New York drinking water. (Chuckles.) they just take public drinking water, tap water, and run it through a pure filtration system and sell it for one thousand to two thousand above the cost of tap water.”
Q : “Now, do you think, ah, this also might be a corridor to export energy, ah, outside the state of Maine for the Canadian Providences as well?”
A : “Absolutely. You know there’s someone else here that can…”
Q : “I already talked to Jim about this.”
A : “Oh, O.K. great. But yeah, I think they are eyeing the Liquid Natural Gas pipeline. That’s a fuel that would just go straight through the State of Maine. They’ve been talking about…they really badly want to get the tar sands out of Alberta. So, you know it’s possible that they may push that. They’re been talking about the ‘Enbridge pipeline,’ for that. Which currently runs tight by Sebago Lake.”
Q : “Is that the one that was mentioned in the Portland Phoenix last week?”
A : “Yes, yes, yes. That’s highly, highly controversial. Obviously bringing extremely dirty fuel, down through Maine and over one of the significant aquifers in Maine and over one of the significant aquifers in Maine. That provides drinking for, I think it was 1/6th of the population of the state. It was a huge number.”
Q : “And that’s a World War II pipeline. So it can’t exactly be all that, ‘up to snuff.’ Wouldn’t you agree?”
A : “I would agree.”
Q : “So, it’s not an exact science, but it’s like an Environmental Catastrophe just waiting to happen, for a profit, and it’s really a gamble.”
A : “We think so, yeap, absolutely.”
Q : “O.K., and do you have anything else to say about this ‘East-West Highway,’ proposal? You can say as much as you want by the way.”
A : “Ummm…I think that my closing point on it is going to be: Think about the future we want for Maine. Why are we here? What do we want? Do we want to burn more fossil fuels, or do we want to be looking at creative ways to support our people and our environment? We’re here because we love it here, and if we permanently…”
Q : “Whoa! I got to stop you there.”
A : “O.K..”
Q : “What do you think about that, the spin, o.k.? Because I read this thing online about Cianbro, the C.E.O. and President is like: ‘Oh, this is going to save fossil fuels, because, it’s going to save truckers 2 hours from going around Maine.’ And do you think that’s a bunch of ah…you know, ‘spin,’ and so forth? Where it’s not really environmental friendly? Because of the, let’s say, the run-offs, that’s going to go onto the Kennebec and the, ah, Penobscot, from the oils and the anti-freeze.”
A : “Yeah, that and the diesel fuel consumption. They’re looking at it, in a very short term context. And what I’m asking right now is to look at it in a long term context. Yes, right now, we are using a large deal of truck transport to move goods across the country and around the world. And it’s not good. We’re facing climate change and we’re facing huge issues with our planet changing. And so, for Peter Vigue to say, you know, ‘Well, it’s happening, so we’re just continue the same and will actually be more efficient.’ That’s crazy.” (Chuckles.)
Q : “It is, it is. And the other point I wanted to bring up too is, ah…oh, It was just on the tip of my tongue too. Ah, Ah, you were talking about the, ah, ah, OH! It was in the newspaper, the Kennebec Journal. Ah, that your group talked about the ‘wet-land,’ issue, This, this is going…can you go more into detail about that?”
A : “I’ll try to. This is actually something I need to look more into, and work with like a hydro-geologist on more closely. And I haven’t done that yet. But I do know that, you know, it’s going to go by, Grand Lake Stream. Ummm…that there’s one of the largest aquifers in the state up there. Ummm… wetlands are some of the most, Ummm, economically. Economically. (Chuckles.) I did mean economically.”
Q : “Right, right, right. right.”
A : “I didn’t mean economically.”
Q : “Environmental.”
A : “Environmentally divers eco-systems.”
Q : “And it’s like an aqua fill by itself.”
A : “Yeah, it’s an aqua fill by itself. It attracts so many animals. There’s so much wildlife that needs a wet area to live. Bears need to raise their cubs around them. You know, they support fish. They support otters, beavers, birds.”
Q : “Things that eat mosquitoes, that we don’t want.”
A : “Absolutely, that’s right, and black flies. And so, for us to, you know, maintain as much of that as possible, is also a way for us to maintaining the wealth of the state. Our animals, our diversity of our animals and our plant life and our trees, are certainly all…consider them a wealth of Maine. Things that we co-exist with and we all need to survive together.”
Q : “Do you know if this is going to go near Flagship Lake, by any chance?”
A : “I don’t.”
Q : “O.K.. Are you familiar with the ‘Open Letter to Pattie Aho,’ that the Conservation Law Foundations Sean Mahoney made?”
A : “I am not. I know that Pattie Aho is the new…I know she’s been doing some stuff. But I don’t.”
Q : “Are you…”
A : “Can you tell me more about it?”
Q : “Yup. Yup. Because we’re actually going to do a re-print of that. Ah, it’s not word for word, but pretty much, from what my understanding is: When Pattie Aho was not the official Department of Maine Commissar. She was known about the Flagship Lake and Florida Light and Power Company. Now the person who was retiring.”
A : “Did you say the Four Power?”
Q : “Florida.”
A : “Florida Power.”
Q : “And Light Company.”
A : “Florida Light, O.K.. Sorry, O.K..”
Q : “I guess they got a hydro dam up in, ah, Flagship Lake and so forth.”
A : “O.K..”
Q : “Well, she kinda dropped the ball. So, now the state has no say about the environmental impact at Flagship Lake for the next 25 years.”
A : “Wow! O.K..”
Q : “Yeah.”
A : “No, I wasn’t aware of that.”
Q : “So, and I looking at a map, and I was like, ‘Wow! That looks like it’s going to go right near the ‘East-West Highway.’ ‘Cuz it’s pretty near Colburns Gore.”
A : “Right.”
Q : “What a consequence! You know? I know about the huge export of electricity.”
A : “Right.”
Q : “to the out of state, because I’m having a hard time, even though he’s been seemingly co-operative, Ken Fletcher. I’ve been working with the Governors’ Press Secretary’s office, to get a statement about these power lines being upgraded and all the power being shipped out of state.”
A : “Right.”
Q : “And the statement Jim Freeman made about, ah, about the, ah, this ‘East-West Highway.’ About how’s it’s going to ‘T,’ off at Costigan, or Old Town area.”
A : “Right.”
Q : “To ship the power south and then it’s going to go to the other places too. That’s why they want to build all, ah, these windmills.”
A : “Right.”
Q : “And I was at the Environmental Resource Committee meeting, and they were talking like: ‘Why are we?’ You know, ‘we’re talking about wind Mills here and we got dams that are not working at full capacity. We got an oil plant down in Portland that could provide Maine with 18% of its power. But it’s only used as a back-up. It’s only providing 1% of Maine’s power.’ And all this electricity has just been shipped out of State. We’re using taxpayer dollars to ship the power out of state. And all of a sudden this, ‘East-West Highway,’ comes up and it’s like: What a consequence here. And it’s going right by Flagship Lake which is, what Pattie Aho ‘dropped the ball on,’ and she was a ,ah, former lobbyist for Pierce Atwood.”
A : “Mm-hun.”
Q : “And she had a meeting. According to the letter, she had a meeting with another Pierce Atwood Attorney, in her office with Florida Power and Light. And it’s like, how convenient, that she would be able to have that meeting, right in her office, yet, ‘dropped the ball,’ and say: ‘I didn’t know anything about this.”
A : “Wow! Yeah, that is convenient. Ummm…Well I think that is real demonstrative, how Ummm…we’re really under corporate control, in this environment right now.”
Q : “Do you think it’s a consequence ?”
A : “I think that’s why the Occupy Movement is here so strongly and able to unify as many people as it does. Because everybody is feeling like, the not only the state, but the United States and also Globally that we are really under corporate control. And we have lack of access to true democratic process, and our rights.”
Q : “Do you think it’s a consequence, that, ah, our Governor in the past, worked for two corporations that got shut down because of the Department of Environmental Protection, and now, ‘low and behold!’ We got a former lobbyist, who used to work for ‘the dumps,’ ah, a.k.a. Pattie Aho. When 22 years ago, according to Nancy Oden, ‘She was on the wrong side of a dump fight in Washington County, for Township 30 that took 3 years…Pattie Aho’s side spent 3 ½ million dollars. Nancy Oden and her crew spent $75,000 to beat back the dumps…and all of a sudden, there she is! Pattie Aho, head of Maine Department of Environmental Protection!’ And all of these things are getting passed through like it’s a joke.”
A : “I don’t think it’s a consequence. Uh, it’s defiantly not a consequence. I think it’s a big part of the, ah, ah, plain to maintain power and Ummm…keep people confused and divided. And you know, you see it in the appointments President Obama is making too. It’s all the way down.”
Q : “Now are you surprised that we, this is the second, ah, person from the Pierce Atwood, ah, lobbyist firm that we have? Because the one before , well I’m not counting Darryl Brown, because he didn’t exactly get the appointment, but the, ah, Dave Litell was also form Pierce Atwood?”
A : “I’m not sure about that.”
Q : “O.K..O.K..”
A : “I should probably actually go, because I think we are going to head inside for the hearing.”
Q : “O.K.. Well I’ll be interviewing there too. I want to thank you very much and, ah, thank you for your time.”
State Senator Douglas Thomas public comment to D.O.T. committee.
Senator Collins : “This sponsor is our own, ah, Senator Thomas. Please sign the sheet.”
Unidentified voice : “Oh, we don’t use that anymore.”
Senator Thomas : “Oh, we don’t? O.K..”
Senator Collins : “Nope, go ahead.”
Senator Douglas Thomas : “ Good afternoon. Senator Collins, Representative Cebra, members of the Transportation Committee. I’m Doug Thomas, and I still represe4nt State Senate District 27, one of the poorest Senate Districts in Maine. And I’m here today to talk about an opportunity we have to improve the economy of that District and all of Maine. I’m here to talk about the ‘East-West Highway.” And it’s L.D. 1671 and the Deputy Commissar, when he gets up will explain the…When this bill is going to be changed from an Act to a Resolved. So, it just saves a lot of time and ah, effort on all of our parts and he’ll explain it. First of all. Let me thank Peter Vigue and Cianbro, for keeping this idea alive and doing all the work it’s taken and get us this far. Knowing full well, that once State Government becomes involved, the opportunities opened up by this project are opened to everyone and no longer in their private demand. This bill provides the money to do a bankable study of the feasibility of a private toll highway running East to West, across Maine, from New Brunswick to Quebec. This is a study that will determine if this is a good investment or not. If it turns out the way we think it will, this study will be presented to investors, to prove that the business model is sound. That they have a high likely hood of getting a good return on that investment. This is a necessary first step to make this project, we’ve talked about for decades a reality. We’ve studied this idea before, but before it was always going to be a public project. And if we wait for public funding for this road, and the last cost estimate I saw was $12 Billion dollars, we’re going to be awfully old waiting for this to happen. And it will never happen. This time the project would be a private toll road and in many ways similar to the Turnpike. Which is a concept this committee deals with all the time. ‘Why should public money be used to fund the study to build a private road?’ you wonder. For many reasons. First, Investors need to know if a project of this size has public support. Like it or not, government will need to be involved in the permitting, and the law enforcement processes on this road. We’ll need to be involved in many ways that we can’t even think of at this stage. It needs to be done first, not last. We need to get the public first and we need their support first. We don’t need until the last thing. And the amount of public investment is very small when you look at the potential this has to improve a part of Maine, that so disparately needs it. We spent a lot more before and gotten a lot less back.
This idea is important to Maine and the area where I live. I’m not going to try and cover everything. There are people behind me to speak and I don’t want to steal any of their thunder. So, I’d like to finish with one business in my district, that I think this road will be a gereat benefit to. Hardwood Products in Gilford, has recaptured a big part of the small, wooden products business, that we thought was lost to Chinas forever. They are now in the process of expanding to fill the demand for those products. That expansion will create 75 new jobs in an area that has lost most of the jobs we had 40 years ago. That area of Maine used to be a place where you could find all kinds of jobs 40 years ago. Today, people have a real hard time and we need every job that we can get. It’s the best news Piscataquis County had in a long, long time. Hardwood Products needs to buy quality white birch logs in a quantity that’s always been hard to find. This road will lower the transportation costs, so that company can reach out further to be able to get those logs; and without them, they can’t provide these jobs. So, we need to be able to secure those better jobs, and, ah, with that, I’ll thank you, try to answer any questions you have.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions on Senator Thomas?”
Senator Thomas : “You’re going to let me off easy?”
Senator Collins : “Senator, you have a question.”
Unidentified Senator : “Thank you Mr. Chairman. Good Afternoon. Ummm…we can get into this more latter but, (clears throat.) excuse me. It looks like with the resolve…”
Senator Thomas : “Yes.”
Unidentified Senator : “In the resolve, it appears that the $300,000 was the estimate in cost, if the General funding would pay for it. Is that still the cost?”
Senator Thomas: “As far as I know, that’s the cost.”
Unidentified Senator : “And so, Ummm…Do you have an (inaudible) with you, in the Department of Transportation, where that $300,000 is going to come from?”
Senator Thomas : “My understanding is, that it’s in the planning budget now. And, ah, we have a hundred million dollars in the highway projects of last year, to spend. And this will be a small 300,000 would be a small portion of that money that we saved last year, that we have for next year.”
Unidentified Senator : “Ah, the year to date, Ummm…or at least this last month, I think the highway fund was done a million dollars. Is that your understanding?”
Senator Thomas : “I haven’t looked recently.”
Unidentified Senator : “O.K.. Ummm…So, that’s one of the things I think we need to have cleared up real quick, in terms of where that money’s going to come from within the Department. Because in spite of a hundred million dollars, that we can’t use any of this. It’s still a budget that has belongings and money in it. So, we just need to be able to find out where this money is coming from.”
Senator Thomas : “Sure, I understand that.”
Senator Collins : “Any further questions for Senator Thomas? Representative Oberman, you have a question?”
Representative Oberman : “Thank you. Uh, Senator, would this be considered one of these projects, ah, ‘build it and they will come?’”
Senator Thomas : “That’s what the study is for, Representative Oberman. The study is to see if in fact there is a demand for it. It needs to be a bankable study. People aren’t going to invest a billion dollars, if they don’t think this is going to be successful.”
Representative Oberman : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Any further questions on Senator Thomas? Seeing none, thank you.”
Senator Thomas : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “When we proceed with this public hearing…”
Senator Roger Sherman
Senator Collins : “…With anything else. Is there anyone here to speak in favor of L.D. 1671? Senator.”
Senator Roger Sherman : “Ah, Senator Collins, Representative Cebra, Ah, I have a letter that I’m not going to read. I think, Representative Thomas kind of laid it out, ah, where we’re trying to go. But this is, I’ll read a couple of paragraphs out of this, and maybe a paragraph that indicates why we think this is important.”
Unidentified voice : “Can you introduce yourself?”
Senator Roger Sherman : “Senator Roger Sherman. The Senate District 34, Southern half Aroostook County.”
Unidentified voice : “There you go, We would have been a miss and not, ask you to introduce yourself.”
Senator Sherman : “Well maybe I wanted to be anonymous here.”
(Room breaks out in laughter.)
Senator Sherman : “You never know. Errr… I’m just going, on the second full paragraph on the first page. This is from the members of the Maine Canadian Legislative advisory commission. By right to date, support the L.D….Well it’s not L.D. anymore. I guess it’s resolve to provide funds for the study. And on the, on the, last page, second page, you, if you haven’t, of the Maine-Canadian Advisory Commission it used to an existence, and we started up again this year to talk with Quebec, or Quebec friends and our New Brunswick friends. Ahhh…I’ll read that to you: The Maine Canadian Legislative Advisory Commission consists of members of the Senate, the House of Representatives, along with members of the public interest of Maine-Canadian trade and relationship issues. Ah, we encourage and support, Ummm…resolve 1671 to provide funding to the Department of Transportation to conduct a feasibility study. Members there and myself, ah, along with Troy Jackson, ah, the chair is Representative Ken (Sounds like Cordet.) and, ah, Representative Jeff Gilfords out of the House. Ah, Danny (Sounds like Devough.) is a private member. There’s a couple of others, that ah, Errr…we didn’t list here. Ah, the paragraph I’d really like to focus on, and other folks I’m sure will indicate why this is important when I think, think this is important. Ah, and it’s the last on the front page, there’s a…the full paragraph. And this has to do with, ‘All things of the Panama Canal.’ Most Mainers do not know the Panama Canal will complete a renovation by, in 2014, that will double the amount goods that can pass through that region. This, ah, will increase shipping capacity up to the East Coast. The International Marine Terminal in Portland, has just began a $5 million dollar upgrade. When they created an area, where more containers could be moved off of ships. Ahhh…and located in a place where they can be successful to road…by road, for Maine companies. The Penobscot Bay region, along with the major ports in Halifax, are also poised to create an expanded capacity, and in return gain economic activity. The ‘East-West Highway,’ and transportation corridor, ah, will cre…we hope will create opportunities for trade from land and sea. The Canadian Maritimes are an important partner in, in…for Maine and trade, transportation, employment and tourism. Montreal Quebec, through the Maritimes, ah, where important…are important enough to build a road all the way around Maine. To have access, to that part of the country. Maine should also recognize the importance of this partnership, invest in the study on this, ah, project.
We’re going to meet the, the, the trade…we kind of resurrected our self. I think we’re going to, Ummm….set up to talk to our friends in Quebec, ah, and set up to do some cross-border stuff, with, with, New Brunswick. Ah, living on the Boarder. The…if you travel New Brunswick, as I do, up and down the Saint John River, rather pretty. That you go over, and see these high speed trains, doubling decking, hauling stuff out of Halifax, out of Saint John, right around the top of us. If you do the mileage around the top of us, ah, versus the mileage across Maine, you’re going save yourself several hours of, of, of travel time. It also, I think would give us, access to markets, Errr… East and West in the State of Maine. I know there’s ah…I don’t remember the name of the attorney. But an attorney from Bangor, whose been advocating an ‘East-West Highway,’ for years, thinking that you could have terminal points, ah, in Bangor, as a half-way point. I think it’s well worth taking a look at. Ah, as I agree with, ah, Representative, Errr… Senator Thomas. If, ah, if it’s worth, if, if it comes out, so it’s bankable if you use the term. Ah, I think it’s well worth doing. We…we’re in some ways the New Brunswick, P.E.I., Nova Scotia, ah, their population in New Brunswick is decreasing. They’re going out west. And in some ways, the state of Maine is in the way. My, my joke is: Webster Ashburn did a poor job at drawing the lines there. They really should have gone the Saint Lawrence River, or given us over to Maine…Errr….given us over to New Brunswick or Canadian at the time. We’re part of Nova Scotia, but that’s probably another history lesson you don’t need to hear about. So, thank you and ask any, answer any questions that I know the answer to. If I don’t, I’ll say, ‘I don’t know,’ and tell you latter. I see a hand up from a good Senator.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions of Senator Sherman from Hosh in? Representative Lime.”
Unidentified person : “Thank you Senator Collins, Ah, Senator Sherman.”
Senator Sherman : “What’s that?”
Unidentified person : “You had. You guys…you said there were names left off. Is that because they didn’t support it, or is that just…”
Senator Sherman : “Ah…I can talk to you privately about that.”
Unidentified person : “Was…has there been any votes, or talk about the…”
Senator Sherman : “Yes, yes. We voted to support this.”
Unidentified person : “So, but this is officially a letter of support from the a…”
Senator Sherman : “Yes. Exactly.”
Senator Collins : “Any additional questions for Senator Sherman? Seeing none. (Gavel comes down.) Thank you.”
Senator Sherman : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Is there any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671? Representative Turner Welcome.”
Representative Beth Turner
Representative Turner : “Thank you. Good afternoon, Senator Collins and Representative Cebra and distinguished members of joint standing committee on Transportation. I am State Representative Beth Turner and I have the honor of Representing 59 communities in, ah, parts of Washington County, Hancock County, and Penobscot County. Which, I would also say is the most beautiful part of the state of Maine. Ah, it is House District 11 and it is a privilege to appear before you today, to speak in support of L.D. 1671. As we look to continually improve Maine’s economic and jobs situation, it is important that we look at many different options, in all regions of the state. Rural Maine has been hit hard by the most recent Recession, and has lagged behind in economic development for years. Providing an effective means of transportation for travelers and goods in those parts of the state, that are more isolated, is one way to encourage this development. Discussion about putting an, ‘East-West Highway,’ in Maine has been happening for decades, and it is time we do something about it. The feasibility study this bill funds, is the first of its kind to be done: An independent investment grade study. The study will determine the need for an exact location for an ‘East-West Highway,’ following from the feasibility study the construction of an ‘East-West Highway,’ done right, would bring construction jobs, maintenance jobs, as well as easing the transport of goods, and the ability of trans…ah, tourists to visit these beautiful parts; but hard to reach areas of our state. With the construction of an, ‘East-West Highway,’ Maine could become a ‘North-East trade gateway,’ which would create jobs, expand the tax base and provide economic opportunity and vitality to Maine, the Maritimes and Quebec.
As envisioned this would be a privately owned and privately funded toll highway, using existing right of ways. The corridor could also accommodate utilities and communications. A concept study that has already been undertaken by a General Contractors Association, uses the Calais to Coleburn Gore route and shows the road linking to Sherbrook and then going onto Montréal. Should this become a reality, think of the expanded economic opportunities for the people of Maine. In particularly, the people of rural Maine, who so need this economic development and are often shunted aside, when economic matters are considered within the state. If this feasibility study had been done, and this highway had been built, when the conversation first emerged decades ago, imagine where the economy of rural Maine and the economy of the state as a whole would be right now. I encourage you ought to vote…ought to vote…ought to pass on L.D. 1671, to improve Maine’s economy and job situation. Thank you for the opportunity to speak in front of the committee today and I’d be happy to answer any questions you may have.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions for Representative Turner? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony.”
Representative Turner : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671? Yes.”
Jonathan Nass
Jonathan Nass : “Chairman Collins, Chairman Cebra, my name is Jonathan Nass, I’m senior policy advisor to Governor Paul LePage. Governor LePage asked me to come down here this morning and express his strong support, ah, for this resolve. First of all, I really need to thank Senator Thomas, Senator Sherman, Representative Turner, and others…other sponsors of this bill, of putting forward, what, what truly is a, ah, innovative and, ah, ah, pressing need for, for the state of Maine. Ah, what this resolve would, would, would propose to study, would be a new way of financing our highways. As you are all painfully aware, ah, dollars are tight, and transportation dollars are tight. And we need to be looking for, for new ways to finance, ah, our infrastructure. What this study would propse is indeed a new way to, to, to study, or, Errr… or a new way to build infrastructure in the state of Maine. It’s been elsewhere in the country. Ah, we think that this is a right project to, to try this, here in Maine and the Governor would welcome this bill coming to this desk, ah, and , and would sign it. I welcome any questions.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions for Jon Nass? Seeing none.”
Jonathan Nass : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Thank you. Any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671?”
Bruce Van Note
Bruce Van Note : “Thank you Chairman Collins, Chairman Cebra, members of the committee. My name is Bruce Van Note, I’m Bruce Van Note, I’m Deputy Commissioner of, ah, Maine Department of Transportation. Obviously the Administration, ah, supports this concept. I wanted to stand up and answer some technical questions. Some, ah…ah…that, ah…I anticipate and actually have heard since I’ve been here I’ll try to answer them. Ummm…at the go. Ummm…first, ah, the resolve which is in purple here. Ah, the reason, ah, for the resolve, Ummm…is that, that, the Department, Ummm…is able to re-allocate, ah, existing funds, to find this study, Ummm…through planning funding. Ummm…to answer your question, Senator Diamond, the, Ummm…Highway fund as of the end of January, I believe was up 1.5. December it was up one, Ummm…roughly. That’s not where this particular funding is coming from. There was some existing studies, ah, that you, ah, probably are aware of, if you read the papers. Ummm…we ah, pulled the plug on Wiscasset after 20 plus years of study. Ah, Skowhegan, Ummm…was ongoing study that didn’t garner, ah, local support, and those are the planning funds that are allowing this to be funded at this time. Ummm…we support it, ah, simply because I think it puts the cart before the horse, in the order. Ah, we spent, ah, well over 20 years down Wiscasset all kinds of people with maps, showing all kinds of alignments, all over the place. Scarring them, about ‘something maybe coming through my property,’ or just worrying about noise and those kinds of things. Only to conclude later that, it, it wasn’t fiscally viable. And the reason for that, this committee’s is all too well aware of.
The current funding model, where you do big transformational things like this, through largely Federal funding, is just not the model we’re operating under now. Ummm…we need new innovative ways, to do, ah, funding of transformational projects like this. Ah, this committee was at the forefront of that. I think just a session or two ago, ah, when it shepherd it through and, Ummm… eventually passed by the Legislature a Private – Public partnership, ah, concept. Which, Ummm…calls for projects, such as this, anything over 25 million, that once a proposal is made to do something like that, they will be coming back to you, to, get a determined, Ummm…whether it’s a good project for Maine. In the mean time, I’ve been given that’s there’s no realistic chance of, ah, the approximately, we don’t know exactly, that’s part of the study, but say, a Billion or two Billion dollars required to, build, ah, to build this. Ummm… It’s going to have, Ummm…It’s going to have to be a new way to ‘skin the cat.’ And this is a feasibility study, to find out whether that kind of financing is possible. Ummm…and again , I think we need new ways of going about it. So, it’s a financial feasibility study, that you’d have, before you start going through all the details. I’m anticipating ah, with good reason, that, that there be several people that want to jump to the final conclusion: ‘should we be putting a road from here to there and exactly there, and what does it cost and is that good for Maine?’ Ummm…I would submit that some of those questions are legitimate, but premature. That’s the purpose of this, ah, this study, ah, it’s to find out, Ummm…whether it is financially, ah, feasible. Another question I could anticipate would be someone saying, ‘Well, just increase rail, and you don’t need a road.’ You know, ‘Mobile choice,’ is going to be part of the, ah, the study’s purpose. Ah, it’s a revenue study. You actually seek people who will use this and, Ummm…’mobile choice,’ is part of that. Obviously the rail companies are, ah, private entities and if they saw the opportunity right now, they’d be free to partner up and do it. Ah, this is just another way, ah, to, ah, determine whether that freight movement can occur. But, ah, just like other privately held transportation assets, it won’t be done in a vacuum. It will be done within the environment of a, ah, the existing rail system.
So, for all those reasons, ah, the Department supports this bill. We think it’s good to have a, a, a viable, Ummm…financial mechanisms, before you start, ah, talking, ah, Ummm…about details, of exactly where it goes. That’s what this gill does. Therefore we support it as a new way of doing business. I think we all know we have to look for new ways of doing business, to do transformational things in Maine. So, for all those reasons, ah, the Department and Obviously the Administration support the bill.”
Senator Collins : “Questions of Mr. Van Note? Representative Peoples”
Representative Peoples : “Thank you Mr. Chair, and to you Mr. Van Note. Has the State ever done anything like this before, this kind of study?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Not exactly like this. We’ve done lot’s of feasibility studies, but it was under a traditional model. Which is like, ‘O.K., we’re figure out where it goes, how much it’s going to cost, the environmental impacts, ah, Ummm…all those kinds of factors and then do a cost benefit based on, Errr…Federal funding.’”
Representative Peoples : “Basically, what, what you’re trying to accomplish to create a feasibility study that can be taken to Wall-Street, and sold as a viability business opportunity. Correct?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “That’s exactly right, and that…yes.”
Representative Peoples : “So, can…for work session, can you get…give us a little more, a little bit more detail about how exactly that would happen? Because it is the first time the states every done anything like this. Although we do have a…(Next word was cut off by someone clearing their throat over a microphone.)…my experience with the Turnpike.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Exactly, and, ah, it’s…it is, Ummm…the concept is simpler…similar, the implementation will be different. Ahmm…the concept there is, you know, it, it, it’s (Sounds like ‘Through-Port,’ that he said.)…and toll levels. How many people would use it? What’s the revenue stream? What bond would that support?”
Representative Peoples : “Just a follow up. Can you give us some kind of idea of how you would go about asking, ah, putting in an ‘R.P.’ or asking for ah, (Another clearing of the throat into a live microphone obscuring the next word.)…depending on how… who would do this feasibility study. It would not be us, ourselves, we assume.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Certainly not. This is a real speciality, and Ummm…”
Representative Peoples : “Yeah.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Ummm…We’ll be glad to.”
Representative Peoples : “Thank you.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “We’ll be glad to.”
Senator Collins : “Any further questions of Mr. Van Note? Rep…Senator Diamond.”
Senator Diamond : “Thank you very much Mr. Chair. Good afternoon Bruce. Bruce Van Note.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Thank you.”
Senator Diamond : “Ummm…Just, December was down 600,000 left for the year, that I’m familiar with and so that, just wanted to make that clear.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “O.K.. Thank you.”
Senator Diamond : “Ummm…The, the resolve asks for D.O.T., to conduct an independent, ah feasibility, and I’m interested in the word: ‘Independent.’ Ummm…and really I have three questions. That’s the first. How do you perceive with that definition, to be conducting this, or having this conducted , that’s feasible?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Well I think, ah, what you, what you want to make sure you’re doing is, you’re not, ah, doing a study, ah…where there would be, Ummm…kind of a (Sounds like cune-a-rily, but most likely it was cumulative.) in the results of the study. Let’s say for example, Ummm…you were a trucking company, you’re, you, you had a very specific business that would benefitted by this. Or, Ummm….a construction company or something like that. And if you went out and did the study, ah, and paid for it, the question would be; ‘Well can you rely on those results, or were that kind of driven to come to a result that, would, would support it?’ And that’s one of the reasons I think that the Department is the right place to be doing this. Because we’re under your oversight. We work for the public interest. And we go out to R.F.P. and we have someone, ah, propose, just, just as, ah, Representative Peoples, Ummm…surmised and, ah, give us all the work. Say what it is. Make sure the public interest is identified. Those kinds of things. So, that’s why I think they’re independent. It’s independent of a, ah, particularly a ( Again, sounds like cune-a-rily, but most likely it was cumulative.) interest in the optimum study.”
Senator Diamond : “O.K.. Ah, thank you. And, ah, because I suspect like anything of this size, it will be controversy going on both sides of the issue and, and how well it is perceived to be independent, will be very important.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “I agree.”
Senator Diamond : “Ah, secondly, $300,000 that doesn’t strike me…Is, Is that, does that strike you as being an unreasonable amount of money, Ahmm…for a cost for a study of this size? If you are truly independent, you’re not written on other resources. Is that, that an unreasonable amount of money?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Well, if you’re starting on square one, and had no existing data, about the ‘East-West Highway,’ ah, various studies for the last 15 years have been conducted, and it, and…so a lot of it is reviewing and updating, Ummm…existing data, that had been done, ah, through the Department. So, if it was from square one, and brand new and ah, ah, not anything that, ah, had been looked at in general…and what, what, I’m talking about is the kind of traff…ah, traffic study, the, the ‘origin and destination,’ types studies, some of that has already been done. So, Ummm…the. The short answer to your is, ah, we’ve never done one exactly like this before. Ahhh…300,000 is our working estimate. We have not gone out to R.F.D. and received bids yet. We’ll find out then.”
Senator Diamond : “So do you have the flexibility, do you feel that, even a R.F.P., that they are all, significantly over 300,000 or …Do you…do you have the flexibility, do you feel to, ah, be able to fund this, or even bank it?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Yes. I’m, I’m…”
Senator Diamond : “You’re being, granted, you’re asking for $300,000, is what I’m guessing my point is.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Well, actually, the resolve tell us that, (clears throat.) do the study.”
Senator Diamond : “Right.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : And Ummm…Ummm…that would be something just like, ah, every project that we do. We have so much money budgeted for it. And when the bids come in, you know, 20, 30, 50 percent over in some cases, we have to make a decision whether to proceed with that. We allocated other resources and we that all the time. This particular study, so yes, I believe we have the flexibility to do that. Although, if it comes in, you know, significantly different than 300,000, ah, historically we’ve shown the, ah, ah…the institutional respect, if you will. To let everyone know, and, and, decide whether that should be a course worth proceeding.”
Senator Diamond : “Would that be a decision, you would make at the Departments?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “We would have that authority to do it; but how we exercise that authority, would be, ah,…” ( Note to readers: he said the last word too fast to understand.)
Senator Diamond : “Thank you. And the last question is : Ummm…could a study of this nature, not withstanding that some previous work has been done, but, the study of this nature, and this size, and this course, could this be done by January of next year? I mean, we’re talking about, ah, less than a full year.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Yes, we know. We, Ummm…yes, is the short answer to your question. Ah, again, this isn’t a study to determine exactly where on the face of the Earth, we can get every permit and determine every environmental impact. It’s a study to determine whether the basic traffic demand is there, and, ah, tolling and traffic is a, a, sufficient revenue stream to support the level of funding necessary to build an ‘East-West Highway.’ Not a particular, ‘East-West Highway.’ Those concerns are vey legitimate, come later in the process.”
Senator Diamond : “But what…would it include, that study, an environmental impact, generally speaking?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “It would have broad perimeters, but it wouldn’t be the kind specific permitting that, Ummm…ah, that a regulatory agencies, or stake, or various stake holders would expect. You know, detailed, down to the acre kind of thing. It’s not, that kind of study.”
Senator Diamond : “So, some of that, then we really need to be watching is, is $300,000 and up or is it significantly more than that, Ummm…and also, just keep, just keep a handle on the date piece. I’m wondering if you want to leave that end date open. As opposed to saying: reporting to January, January 15th ’13. Ummm…why not give yourself a little time and report to the next Legislature, to make it a little bit later than that?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Well, when I Ummm…I, I was actually consulted as to that particular date and perhaps the, ah, the, ah, production orientated, ah, engineer part of me said, ah: ‘You got to have a deadline in order to get something done.’ Ummm…ah, I’d be more than willing to work with the committee on what that end date should be in work session.”
Senator Diamond : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “I think Representative Curry wanted the next one.”
Representative Curry : “Thank you Mr. Chair. Welcome Deputy Commissar.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Thank you.”
Representative Curry : “My question has to do with…just the top of your head here, so how many, how many of these feasibility studies that we, that’s, that, that’s been conducted lately, that have, Ummm…been in the positive nature; but nothing gets materialized?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Ummm…Again, I don’t have set numbers. ‘Not many,’ is the answer to your question. Ahhh…ah, we haven’t done one of this nature before. This is a new way of getting work done with, ah, private financing, with privately owned and operated road. It’s an entirely new kind of system, that was kind of fore-told by the (Note to readers: he may have said R.F.P., P.P.T., P.B.T., P.T.T. of something similar. Since R.F.D. has been used, it might have be the last example.) statue that the committee and the Legislature, Ummm…ah, passed a couple of sessions ago. In general through without a big transformational studies, bypasses, you know, new, new corridors. Ummm…those largely have not been success of late, for two very simple reasons. Ah, one, ah, the people, ah, don’t want them in their back yard, for obvious reasons; and two cost. And, Ummm…this particular one, is again, focusing on the financial pieces. It’s really financial feasibility study, as opposed to a pacific, on the ground, where exactly it goes.”
Senator Collins : “Representative Madden, something. (Note to readers: Words following was said way to fast to comprehend.)
Representative Madden : “Thank you Mr. Chairman. Ah, Deputy Commissar Van Note, this study that you’re talking about, this feasibility study. Would it just include highway transportation, or does it…would it include all methods of transportation to find which would be the best method to get goods and services East and West?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “I would be, ah, it, it’s focused on the highway, there’s no question. But one of the things, ah, that you have to do, when you ask shippers…when you’re talking to businesses, is, you have to talk about, ‘Mobile choice.’ I mean, they, ah, shippers are very pragmatic people. I mean, they want get from ‘point A to point B,’ for the least cost per ton. And, ah, if there’s a viable option to that, they will tell you. And so, yes, they, Errr…the rail discussion will be inherent in discussing, ah, the traffic demand modeling.”
Senator Collins : “Representative Wheeler, you have a question.”
Representative Wheeler : “Yeah, Thank you, ah, Senator Collins. Ah, Mr. Van Note, ah, considering that, we border two Providences…Canadian Providences, ah, can we expect any kind of financial aid from these Canadian Providences, for this, ah, feasibility study? What’s…where is that headed? Are we going to be talking with the Canadians? How much they’re going to be using this, this, this road? I’d, I would assume they are probably to be using it a lot so.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Ah…that…that, (Pause.) The short answer is, that’s kinda above pay grade. Errr….”(Chuckles break out in room.) “…You know, talking to the Canadian Governments. Ummm…e haven’t done that. Ah, given that the, ah, estimate of the study, ah, is that we could relative…relatively modest sounds like it could be done, by re-allocating existing resources. It was something we wanted to move forward on, ah, I, I think it’s…imagine if we’ve had a kind of a financial liability ‘gut-check,’ earlier on some of these other studies, and we just turned: you know what? We’re not going to have the money and we could have put a whole bunch of people. Errr…not put them through a whole bunch of (Note to readers: Last word in sentence was hard to make out.) Ummm…so for that reason, we were very supportive of it. If and when…if the study were to balloon in cost…And I have no indication that it’s going to at all; but I think that would be a valuable conversation to have at that point.”
Senator Collins : “Any additional questions of Deputy Commissar Bruce Van Note? Seeing none. Thank you for your questions.”
Deputy Commissar Bruce Van Note : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Do you have a question?”
Representative Cebra : “No.” (Note to readers: A few mumbled words here from two different people. Their microphones may have been covered up by their hands.)
Senator Collins : “O.K., go ahead.”
Representative Cebra : “Thank you since we’ve heard from, Errr…Sponsors and Co-sponsors, and the administration and no members of the public het…I’d like to take this opportunity to, to read the official announcement that I need to read…” (Note to readers: Remainder of sentence was said too soft and fast to understand.)
Senator Collins : “Alright.”
Representative Cebra : “This is a notice. All persons testifying at this public hearing today, are advised that his hearing is being broadcasted throughout the building and on the internet; And maybe heard or recorded by persons listening online.
In addition, written testimony provided at the public hearing, will be distributed to each member of the committee and beginning February 6th, will be posted on the Legislatures website for viewing by all interested persons. Persons testifying should be mindful that their testimony is public, and will be made available to all interested members of the public, once it is presented. Thank you Mr. Chair.”
Jennifer Mills
Senator Collins : “Alright! Any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671? Could you announce your name please; for the audience as well as the audio?”
Jennifer : “Jennifer Mills. (Long pause.) Good Afternoon Transportation Committee. As I’ve said, my name is Jennifer Mills. My husband and I own Historic Pittston Farm. Formally known as Pittston Farm and locally in Maine we are Maine natives, retired from one profession already; In Maine and now working on another chapter. Our year round recreational business is what we own. And it consists of a restaurant, a hotel, small (time or town,) units, cabins, a campground and truly unique outpost facility 20 miles above Rockwood Maine. We are listed on the National Historic Registrar, and are a certified green facility. Our access is the Northern road from Rockwood. Which is a 20 mile dirt road heading north, connecting to Route 6 and route 15 heading East and West. We own 44 acres on West end of Seboomook Lake. Which is a quarter mile above the North end of Moosehead lake. And the 44 acres is encompassed by 44,000 acres owned by the citizens of Maine and managed by the Bureau of Parks and Lands. Called the ‘Seboomook Unit.’ Beyond that is 200,092 acres of conservative easement. Which is used for recreation year round, called the ‘West Land Achievement.’ (Note to readers: or something that sounds like ‘the West Grant Achievement.’) A total of 336,044 acres of recreational, forested wilderness available for everyone, to enjoy. Now the northern road access, services the majority of the users of this land. About 4,000 small land owners and 27 large ones. Plus thousands of recreationists every day. However, it is still very, very much, (Next word was blocked out by Doug Papa checking tape in recorder nearing its end.) The problem? The problem is attracting people to this part of our state. Because of the misconception, of no services available. And nothing but wilderness. When in fact…
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…and any activity there. And they include year round, winter time : snowmobiling, ice fishing, natural, natural cross country skiing, snow shoeing, hiking, etc.. In the springtime, Brook trout fish, at the South and North branches of the Penobscot River, camping, R.V. lots, Lake fishing at Moosehead, moose and other new born wildlife there. They do it all, by any chance, that we have more moose than people. Moose out number us 3 to 1. Is that not correct Senator?”
Unidentified Senator : “It sure is.” (Chuckles heard from the committee’s side of the room.)
Jennifer : “We also are right in the middle of the ‘Eastern fly-way.’ Now you can talk to Bob Duchesne about that. He has ‘the birding trail.’ He does retreats out of Pittston Farm. It’s a beautiful part of our state. And people come from all over the world. Nationally/ internationally. Summertime, canoeing and Kayaking, and swimming and camping and white water rafting, picnicking, moose and wildlife outdoors, campfirers and A.T.V.’n. We are the Northernmost destination is Somerset County, 50 miles of trail. For our A.T.V. trails. And in the Fall, beautiful Fall foliage. Sugarshackers to see Fall fishing, photography, hunting of all types. The proposed, ‘East-West Highway,’ has been talked about since, I can remember, and I was a little girl, and I’m no longer a little girl and young anymore. It’s been around a long time. It…we need it, in this state. We need it desperately. It would assist in increasing our known presence here at Historic Pittston Farm. The business that we own and it’s financial stability, as well as, all of the other businesses in the area. With appropriately assigned routes, tourism orientated messages, explaining the area, and educating drivers on this highway about the largest area, in the United States East of the Mississippi. The history of our business alone goes back 4,000 years, when the Native Americans traded in the Summer there at the, (Note to readers: couldn’t even make out first word because it was said way too fast.) at the two rivers. And secondly, the logging history, is the cornerstone in our area, and of our state I might say. We have a 501-c-3 museum at Pittston Farm, celebrating the logging history, and the Native American history. Little, little, people know about that. The travelers in and outside our state, and country should be aware of our incredible history of their ancestors. There isn’t a week, that goes by, that someone asks me about the history. They tell me about relatives that worked here for Great Northern Paper. Who owned this vast wilderness; for 73 years and owned our facility. One of five, and the only one left, and was so proud and honored to own. The transformation however, taken place here. From logging company operations to tourism, year-round, to a certified green facility, with a hybrid renewable energy system, and 21st century technology; is truly amazing. Every business in the upper portions, of Somerset and Piscataquis County, truly need some visibility assistance.
I have worked, and am a member of our Moosehead area Chamber of Commerce, being a board of Director there for 5 years. I traveled to Eastern States exposition, in Massachusetts in Springfield; and I’ve had the pleasure of advertising our area. One question I always ask, of people stopping by that booth, is this: ‘Have you ever traveled to Maine?’ The response I get, 99% of the time is this: ‘Yes. I’ve been to the coast.’ They are not in most cases, aware the is such a vast area of the natural tourism in our central part of the state. When I give them a follow up question, like ‘Have you ever thought about traveling into the Moosehead Lake area and visiting the three important sites? -Baxter State Park, Moosehead Lake, The Great North Woods?’ They look at me real strange. Real strange. And they ask, ‘Oh that’s so far away and there’s no easy way to get there. There’s no easy highway system. You got to go North, and…they…then East, and then West; and the roads are terrible. Nothing but dirt and Moose in the area.’ That is the response I get; And I have talked to over a thousand people, directly, at just that one show. Multiply that , times at least 4 to 5 shows a year, from New York to Massachusetts and here in this state; and I get the same response, ladies and gentlemen.
This proposed ‘East-West Highway,’ would be an excellent, ‘shot in the arm,’ to end our lack of tourism business. There’s a very big division here, ladies and gentlemen; between Southern Maine and Northern Maine. In my former career as a law enforcement officer, I traveled the entire state. I worked down South most of the time; and I can tell you first hand, it’s nothing like where I live at the… (Note to readers: place was said with no spacing between words to comprehend.) We lived there 6 years. People are, (Note to readers: speaker said word so fast, there is difficulty telling if she said, ’suffering,’ or ‘separate.’) the businesses are struggling all over the place like we are ourselves. Just to take care of business and stay alive. The energy costs, distance from a major highway systems, and lack of awareness of our natural resources and history; all add up to a very much, depressed environment. And people…businesses are dropping off one, by one, by one. And if the things don’t change, this business of ours will be one of them.
I ask this Committee, to pass this bill of a feasibility study, or resolve and explore this much needed ‘East-West Highway.’ And attempts to truly, make us feel, Historic Pittston Farm, and guests there, that we are actually part of the State of Maine; and not just in the middle of ‘no- where.’ If properly promoted, the tourism possibilities are endless; and will result in bringing much needed income for our state and our struggling businesses. I thank you very much for your time. I’ll answer any questions if you have any.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions of Ms. Mills? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony. Any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671? Please announce your name please.”
(Note to readers: End of this tape.)
Partial Peter Vigue presentation to the Department of Transportation Committee.
Senator Collins : “Is there any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671? Please state your name please.”
Peter Vigue : “My name is Peter Vigue. Thank you Senator Collins, Representative Cebra, who ah just left the room and to the respective committee members.
(Note to readers: I gave Mr. Vigue a note apologizing for not catching pages 1-4 of his power point presentation. In a hand written note, I explained how I mistakenly thought his hand out to the committee members had his entire power point presentation. I told him where he could view the Occupy Augusta Interviews online for free. I asked if he could send me an e-mail on pages 1-4 of his power point presentation I missed. After his assistant used a hand held device to go online, Mr. Vigue shook his head indicating I probably would not get an e-mail. Hence, I will start to the part I started to record the rest of his public comment. I also caught a quick smile from his assistant and a look of concern from Mr. Vigue. His assistant must have looked at ArchEnemys homepage, or saw how my website Big time Music Trade .com looked or another reason for this body language interaction I witnessed.)
Peter Vigue : “Look at the map. All of the highways, whether they are located in Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont and even New York are North-South highways. They’re North-South. And again, those same states, have the same economic challenges, and in many cases that we do in the state of Maine. I ask you to simply look, from Sherbrook Quebec, more than 61 miles from our boarder. Look at that and look at the highway that exists from Sherbrook to Montreal and all the way down to Toronto and Chicago, Detroit area. And look at the mileage that’s required that the businesses and companies and multiple businesses and companies in the state of Maine, have to follow today. They come down Interstate 95 into Massachusetts and they go West to Albany and across and then all the way to Chicago, Detroit. One might ask: ‘Well, how many Maine businesses go to Chicago, Detroit?’ And I can tell you, now if you go as far North, as Aroostook County, and you talk to Robert Humphrey, whose the president of Maine Packaging, and recognizing that 30% of his business is in the Chicago, Detroit area. He sends and ships out bags now, 4 to 5 truck loads every week. Look at the added expense associated with his ability to do that. We’re not talking hours of difference here. In some cases, days of difference. Because of the log-book requirement of ten hours. It is a very, very significant cost for that company. Lincoln Pulp and Tissue, ships the far majority of everything they manufacture to Appleton Wisconsin. Look at what they have to endure, for transportation expense having to go South on 95 all the way across and back up. And so, it is about connectivity and those issues. And it’s also about future investments and how we can move companies here that will create jobs and employ the people of this state going forward. It is a significant challenge and it’s very complicated. If you study any of the challenges and concerns that the people have about our state, it has everything to do with cost. Cost of operation and transportation is one of those significant costs, to the business of the state and to people who want to export and even import from other parts of the country. So the concept, is linking what we call ‘trade gate-ways.’ In that blue line, from Calais over to Sherbrook, it’s actually Coleburn Gore on our boarder. And so essentually what it does, is to provides economic opportunity and vitality to Maine, the Maritimes and Quebec. It develops a long term transportation and Utility and Communications corridor. And I want to stop right there for a moment.
If you look at all of the maps of this state, that identifies all of the transportation routes. If you look at this state and look at all of the utility routers, whether it’s the gas, electricity, communication. In many cases a majority of them, going back to the 1930’s, those companies that developed those needs, did it independently of one another. And so, it created havoc with our landscape. Whether it’s electrical transmission, road-way systems, and it was very limited collaboration. If we fast forward 50 or 100 years from now, (Long Pause.) what would it take to get a right of way for utilities and for the future of this state? And if at the end of the day, when I speak to these right issues, and the effect that they have on the environment, and the effect that they have on the rate payer. Ask yourself, ‘Whose going to pay for this?’ It’s the future generations that come after us that will pay for this. Isn’t it important, that we, in our generation plan for the future? Well into the future? So that these issues will not have to be encountered over and over again, going forward. Isn’t it encumbered by us, to identify solutions for the future? So that we provide access for these purposes? Instead of having them be developed independently.
And so, when we peak of economic strategy for the state, part of that requires connectivity for every single one of these activities. And so what we’re suggesting here is that: Maine has every potential to become the North East Trade gateway. And so, why is this corridor important to Maine? Well, first of all, it improves connectivity. To the Central U.S., Canada, the Maritimes, Europe and Asia. Our connectivity. It fills Maine’s ‘Hollow Middle.’ East, West and North. And let me take a moment to explain what, ‘Hollow Middle,’ is. If you look at what’s happened over the last 20 years in the State, because of the economic situation that we are faced with now. We’ve had tremendous amounts of migration to southern Maine. And in some cases, outside of Maine. And as a result of that, that has put a huge impact on the demand for infrastructure in the southern half of the state. Roads, sewer, water, schools, all of it. If you look at the Northern half of the state and look at the communities, where all of that infrastructure exists. Brownville, Milo, Washin…areas of Washington County. The schools are there. The infrastructure in there. But I can promise you one thing, that, that infrastructure is underutilized today.
So ask yourself, looking forward, how long will it be, if we don’t get a hold of this? If we don’t develop a strategy? Will it be before the southern half of the state has to support the Northern half? Ask the people that have migrated out of these communities, ‘where they would prefer to work and live?’ And they will tell you simply. And so, what is our economic strategy? How do we lessen the desire for people to be on Social programs? And I would suggest we put ‘em back to work. And this is part of a long term economic strategy for this state.
It will attract additional investment, reduce travel time, improve utility transmission and communications and it will re-vitalize Maine’s ports and rail systems. And create long term jobs and will expand our tax base. This highway, that we’re proposing, is taxable. And if we’re to deal with all these challenges, that you folks have today; in your everyday jobs of all the committees that you serve on, it is a lack of revenue and income. How do we expand it?
The corridor is 230 miles long. It avoids communities, but is connected to communities. It will be connected to communities, so they have access to this highway system. It utilizes existing rights of way, Stud Mill road, Shirley Mills road, Enchanted road. These are private roadway systems. Our focus is to limit the amount of impact that we have on our Environment in this state. It’s not to cut a ‘swath,’ through the center of this state that hasn’t…in courses that haven’t been charted before. It will be privately owned, and developed. Utilizing Canadian weight limits, Tandem trailers, and again it improves the connectivity to rural areas. Just do the math on the carbon footprint. When you start to a let…eliminate the trucking. When you have one truck towing two trailers. The effect it has on cost and the impact it has on the Environment going forward. I’m more than happy to answer any questions that…”
Senator Collins : “Any questions on Mr. Vigue on…”
Unidentified Voice : “Thank you Mr. Chairman. You too Mr. Vigue. You mentioned revitalizing the rails and ports. Can you expand on that a little bit on how that’s going to work? Particularly the rail piece.”
Peter Vigue : “The rail piece in my opinion, is a gem. That’s way too costly inefficient and not well managed. If this state moves forward, we will need our rail systems and our highway systems. Depending on what the demand is, in terms of immediate transport and long term transport. Ummm…tourism is a major part of our industry. It’s a primary industry her in the state of Maine. It’s very doubtful that the rail service will satisfy that need. Just imagine someone coming down, Route 201 from the Providence of Quebec, or Canada that wants to access Bar harbor, Mt. Katahdin, Baxter State park, any of those areas, look at what it takes. Look at what it takes for people who are in Western Maine, the Western Part of Maine, and what it takes from them to get to the air port in Bangor if that’s where they want to go. All the way down Route 201, All the way across and then back yup to Bangor and on Interstate 95. This road has the promise. If someone in Caratunk, or ‘The Forks,’ wants to come to Bangor, they can get there in half the time. The same thing holds true for the people in Dover-Foxcroft and area’s like that. It is about connectivity. It is about improving the environment and in terms our economy and it helps us to be robust. And give people the courage to invest and live here. Does that answer your question?”
Unidentified voice : “Well, just to follow up. I was particularly curious about how this is going to increase, Ummm…and revitalize rail. I mean our rail obviously is not going to do something we are going to use for tourism in all likelihood. But when you’re talking about moving very, very heavy loads of commodities from one point to another, there is a rail that already exists. Cutting across where you are talking about. And I’m just curious as to where… how you see them fitting in.”
Peter Vigue : “Well I believe, I believe in time as the service improves, as the demand for transportation improves, that we will need both the rail and the truck. I’m very confident of that.”
Senator Collins : “Representative Perry, You have a question.”
Representative Perry : “Thank you Mr. Chair. Ah, Mr. Vigue you mentioned about the new big container ships. Are they going to be able to get all the way up to Calais for where this road would start?”
Peter Vigue : “The, the, the issue isn’t just the water depth, or the size of the pier. The real issue is, is a trans-shipment port. And that’s why they’re so focused on, ah, the area, ah, at Melford Nova Scotia. You see, that site, was used, ah, during World War II. It’s owned by the Canadian Government. It’s about…between 1,5000 and 2,000 acre. So it’s not just the unloading and loading of containers. It’s breaking down those loads into these large warehouses. Where a lot of this material is handed or re-handed and directed either into the ‘Heart-Land,’ or down our coast, with mixed, ah, containers. And so, they need a lot of space and a lot of activity. To be able to unload quickly, spread the material out and then also to store. Again remember the capacity, 20,000 (Note to readers: Peter Vigue did say twenty thousand this time.) to store outgoing containers as well. That space does not exist in Halifax, and it doesn’t exist necessary in Eastport or Searsport. Which will be, ah, ‘feeders,’ to the chan…ummm…trans-shipment facility in Melford or Sidney.”
Rep. Perry : “So they will fit. You can pretty much…”
Peter Vigue : “Absolutely, Yup.”
Senator Collins : “Representative Mensbrook, I think you’re next.”
Rep. Mensbrook : “Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Vigue, you mentioned that, ah, there is no deep water ports along the East Coast. I thought Sears Island had an 80 foot…tide.”
Peter Vigue : “No. It’s 35 feet.”
Rep. Mensbrook: “35?”
Peter Vigue : “35 feet.”
Rep. Mensbrook : “O.K.. Thank you. I…’cuz, somewhere along the line, 80…numbers.”
Peter Vigue : “The deepest hole in Penobscot Bay, in any proximity, to, ah, Searsport, and it’s miles out. Not, not, not, a lot of miles, but like 3 miles or more, there’s a, a 70 foot deep hole, that’s it. The rest of it is 35 feet all the way into Searsport.”
Rep. Mensbrook: “The reason I mentioned that, as…so you would know that, a couple of years ago they were talking about trying to develop Searsport Island, into a deep water port. And they kept throwing out the number ’80 foot.’ And it was a mile from the railroad connection and, you know, they kept speaking that. And now all of a sudden, I find it’s only 35 feet…so what’s the average?”
Peter Vigue : “25 feet. 35 foot to the pier, and it’s…”
Rep. Mensbrook : “Right. Good.”
Senator Collins : “Representative Re’al, you have a question.”
Rep. Re’al : “yeah. Thank you Senator Collins. Ummm…Thank you Mr. Vigue for your presentation. Ummm…I have a question. You talk about, ah, avoiding communities that this proposed road will go through. But, also offering accessibility. Can you elaborate on that? What is your vision? Are you going to have one or two interchanges? We know interchanges are going to cost a lot of money, or, are you going to be make it accessible to a lot of communities?”
Peter Vigue : “Well, the routing…the routing does not, ah, interfere with a lot of communities. Ah, I think it’s, it’s ah, important to know that, that first of all, Ummm…Let’s take Dover-Foxcroft. And understand the routing that we’re looking at. Again, many private roads, and, and rights of way that have already been interrupted. Like, we’re not gonna…we’re not going to knock down the North Maine woods. That’s not the intent. However, there’s a key desire and interest on part of a community. I’ll use ‘Dover,’ to have access to that road. And it would be our intent, to install access egrets, for that highway system, so that they can access the highway.”
Rep. Real: “Do you have a vision on how many towns that you would accommodate in that respect, or if you’re in Milo, are you going to have to drive to Dover?”
Peter Vigue : “The, the, the, you, you, you know, you can’t run it up, right, and but, again it wouldn’t go to Milo. It will go to ‘Dover.’ And access people in Brownville and, and Milo and most communities have a relatively short distance to drive to the highway.”
Rep. Real : “MM-Hun. Right.”
Peter Vigue : “So this is a East-West Route system. Right?”
Rep. Real : “MM-Hun.”
Peter Vigue : “And, and it also, ah, crosses route 201, North of Caratunk. Well North at ‘The Forks.’ And again, Ummm…people in that community will have access to this. As well, Ummm…people coming down or going up on Route 201 will have access to this, as well.”
Rep. Real : “Alright.” (Note to readers inaudible comment followed.)
Peter Vigue : “And again, please understand that we live here. I’m not from away. I’m super sensitive to this state and its people and the communities that we live in. And, we will have strong interaction with community. Understands their needs, their concerns, and we will build it into our plan.”
Senator Collins : “Representative Gilman, you have a question.”
Rep. Gilman : “Thank you Chair. Ummm…this is probably one of the ‘no brainer,’ questions, but I’ll ask it anyway. Ummm….Why a toll highway?”
Peter Vigue : “I think it’s been stated a little earlier that number one, that the initial proposed routing, that has been studied now since the 1960’s, and a most recent study, that was completed about three years ago or less. Indicated in a routing through Bangor, down off Skowhegan, that way, would cost in access, between $12 and $15 Billion dollars, and take 25 years to complete. When you look at the funding, that’s provided by the Federal Government right now, we know it’s sustainably less than it’s been in the past, and that is expectantly continued for quite some time. And so, the model for delivering this, is to get the people who use the highway to pay for it. And, and , and that’s essentially the concept. And we believe that there’s enough traffic and activity, and demand for that highway to in fact pay for the highway. And please understand, we don’t build roads at Cianbro. That’s not what we do. And we will not own this highway. Investors will own the highway and I’m very confident that there’s significant interest in doing that.”
Rep. Gilbson : “Thank you, yes sir.”
Senator Collins : “Senator Diamond you have a question.”
Sen. Diamond : “Thank you, ah, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon Mr. Vigue, Welcome. Ummm…You’ve been at this a long time, this, this issue and I’ve heard you speak about it for years, and years and years, Ummm…and well above it. In your line of what all we’ve done, what is, what you consider to be the biggest challenge. Ummm…to getting this job done?”
Peter Vigue : “To get the people of this state to believe in themselves and their ability to compete. And that we can do these things if we want and turn this state around economically. That’s the biggest challenge I have, I , I believe, and again, Ummm…there are kinds of stakeholders groups involved, Ummm…in this state. We all live here, we all co-exist, and we all have different needs. And, and as a result of that, it’s wining the hearts and minds of people. And getting them, to understand the benefit that this can have, in revitalizing this state’s economy, and getting us moving in the right direction. That’s the biggest hurdle.”
Sen. Diamond : “Are you confident that $300,000 is going to be a sufficient amount of money to do this feasibility study and in its time frame, logic, ummm…realistic?”
Peter Vigue : “I believe it is, because there’s a lot of data that has been created in recent years, umm…that could be utilized, to ummm…help this study along and provide information that would have to go out and, and , and , ah, be developed ah, if it wasn’t there. That would cost, ah, ah, monies and time. Recognize that our friends to the East in New Brunswick, have twined their highway to Calais Maine. That was a commitment that Premier Ram (or Rand.) made some years ago. And the data that they collected, in terms of the traffic count coming into the state of Maine, or going…leaving the state of Maine, at Holton, at Calais and the traffic count going up over the top of Maine, is very significant amount of activity. They have all the data, all of the information, and I know that, that, ah, Deputy Commissioner Van Note is very well aware of that and on top of that. And they interact to our neighbors to the East and also to the West. As does, the folks in the Providence of Quebec as well. There’s a significant amount of economic activity that by-passes us, frequently. It drives their cost up. It drives our cost up. And why is this transportation so important? It’s because, ‘who pays for it?’The people who pay for it, are the people that buy the goods and the services. And, and how do we reduce our cost? And how do we improve our connectivity? And, and so the data, the information is out there is very, significant and needs to be ‘tabbed,’ and these studies updated. And, and, and so I think that, that is reasonable, it’s fair. The last study I believe that was done, three years ago, ah, funded thanks to the leadership of Senator Collins, I believe, ah, and I’m sure that you folks are aware of it, was called, the ‘Can-Am study.’ Cost about, in excess of a million dollars. There’s a lot of information data, ah, relating to all of the needs of this study. The only exception was the routing. The routing is what I originally described. This routing is different. So, it needs to define the cost of this routing, as, well as, ‘Is it reasonable and will it be used by a number of the stakeholders and businesses in Maine and outside of Maine?”
Senator Collins : “Any additional questions for Mr. Vigue? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony.”
Peter Vigue : “Thank you.”
John Melrose
Senator Collins : “Is there any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671? Please step forward and announce your name please.”
John : “Senator Collins, Representative Cebra and members of the Transportation Committee, my name is John Melrose. I’m speaking on behalf of the Maine Better Transportation Association. In support of L.D. 1671. I’ll be brief. Ahmmm…we believe that the, ah, resolve as its evolved here and what’s in front of you, answers, ah, or goes at, if you will tow questions, that have been a constant in the discussion about an ‘East-West Highway.’ Ah, the first is: ‘Is it needed in the marketplace of transportation alternatives?’ And the second is: ‘How can it be affordable?’ Ah, we’ve had a good discussion here today, about the ‘bigger idea,’ if you will; but the resolve, ah, ah, is really focused on those two issues. And those two issues had been a stumbling point, in a conversation that’s gone back to the 1960’s. Ah, so we think that this is a god investment to make, to answer those two questions. Ah, we also think, ah, that the idea, that’s been presented here, ah, takes advantage of assets that we already have. Ah, and puts them to better advantage to support the Maine economy. And I would just close, with, ah, and I suspect it would be true, with pretty much everyone in this room, is that, ah…our gaze, ah, in terms of where our economy comes from and where it’s fixed, has been singularity set on the Boston-New York, ah…economy if you will. Ah, there has been very little, of our effort that has gazed off the Halifax. That’s gazed off to Montréal, Toronto and it is time that we do that. Ah, it is, ah, very odd circumstance of our economy, and how we have set ourselves up, that we’ve almost closed our self off to all of those other opportunities, and we only look South. Ah, And with this, we see a prospect of looking at other directions of that would be very beneficial to us. Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions of Mr. Melrose? Seeing none, thank you. Any additional testimony in favor or L.D. 1671? Please announce your name.”
John Williams
John : “Senator Collins, ah, Representative Cebra, I’m John Williams; I’m the President of Maine Pulp and Paper Association, members of the Committee. I’m here to speak in favor of this L.D. 1671. Ah, our Association represents the pulp and paper mills, operating in the State of Maine. These mills provide over 7,000 jobs directly in the mills; and probably 30-40 thousand jobs indirectly across the state. One of our issues has been transportation. Getting our product to the markets that we sell to. It should be an advantage; because we’re in the North Eastern part of the country and a lot of our markets are in the North East. But, many of them, and ah, Peter Vigue mentioned this, are also in the Mid-West. Ah, Lincoln Pulp and Tissue, sells much of their product to the Mid-West. Many of our mills make coated paper that goes into magazines; and many of the magazine producers are in the Mid-Western states. If they could get access to a highway like this, ah, with proposed, and ah, not only reduce their transportation costs, but, but, ah…likely, also reduce the amount of time it takes to get the material there; that would be a great advantage for our, errr…for our mills. It also would be an advantage for getting wood in. It may surprise you, with as much wood as we have, but, Maine is a net importer of wood. We, ah, we bring wood in from our neighboring states and bring a lot of it in from Canada. So, for many , of our mills to be able to use this, ah, highway, and get logs into their mills, would ultimately become, or made into pulp and then paper; would also be a great advantage. For sa…ah, this really just being in support of a feasibility study, to see if this would work. But, Ummm…we would urge you to pass this bill, or res…resolve, whatever. (Note to readers next couple of words were mumbled.)…Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions of Mr. Williams? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony.”
John : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 16781? (Long pause.) Please announce your name please.”
James Cody
James : “Sure. Senator Collins, Representative Cebra, my name is James Cody. I’m the President and C.E.O. of the Associated Public Contractors of Maine. I reside in Farmington, and I am please to…”
(Note to Readers : Recorder was shut off to save space on tape. The same goes for Jim Handly, who lives in Gray Maine and also spoke in favor of L.D. 1671. Jim Spoke right after James Cody and also on behalf of Associate General Contractors Guild of Maine.)
Ben Yeoman
Ben : “Senator Collins, Representative Cebra, My name is Ben Yeoman, I am from Gorham. I represent the Maine State Chamber of Commerce. A state wide business organization made up of a network of 5,000 businesses, all across this state. I’m here to deliver our testimony in support of L.D. 1671. I’d just like to take a quick side note and say, that, ah, David Connors the President and C.E.O., of the Maine State Chambers sends his regrets. He wanted to be here himself, as this is an issue very important to us, and, ah, as a former D.O.T. Commissioner, he’s…very familiar with this. And he does send his regrets, he wanted to be here himself this afternoon. But, as, I heard, (clears throat.) stood…ah, sat back in the audience, and, ah, listened to the testimony being delivered, that this has been a concept, ah, since the 60’s as it’s been delivered; ah, it reminded me…back when I was a college student at the university of Maine back in 1995, I started to getting involved in the political process. I, ah, interned for Senator Olympia Snowe in Bangor. And as an intern the first meeting that I attended was a feasibility of an ‘East-West Highway.’ So it doesn’t go back to the 60’s, but to the 90’s, ah, was the first issue I was involved in and so I’m here to deliver our testimony in support of this.
We’d like to start out by thanking, ah, Senator Thomas for submitting this Legislation, and also for the timing of this feasibility study. We think the timing of this is, ah, ah, very well received. As we position our, our state, ah, coming out of the recession, in this economy, ah; and it’s important, that we get the facts and the information in moving forward the possibility of an, ‘East-West Highway.’ I think, ah, it’s very important as we saw earlier, that the benefits, ah, we sit in the middle of a large population here in the North Eastern United States. Plus, there’s statistics I think, there’s a population of 55 million in the North East. We’re in the center of that commerce. A lot of commerce can go on, if we establish this ‘East-West Highway,’ and the big business community is very supportive of it. So, we encourage you to support the feasibility study, and it moves forward. Thank you for your time and I’ll be happy to answer any questions.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions of Mr. Yeoman? Seeing none, thank you.”
Ben : “Thank you Senator.”
Tim Doyle
Senator Collins : “Any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671? Please step forward and announce your name please. (Long pause.) Before we go any further...I’d like to acknowledge in the audience, former House Chairs Committee: The Honorable Representative Fisher. Welcome.”
Mr. Fisher : “Thank you Senator.”
Tim : “Senator Collins, members of the committee, Ummm...my name is Time Doyle and I’m the Vice President of Maine Motor Transport Association. Our Association is comprised of approximately twelve hundred member companies; whose employees comprise a large portion of the 33,000 people, that make their living in the trucking industry in Maine. I’m here today to testify in favor of this resolve. The concept of an ‘East-West Highway,’ is not new as you’ve heard; and the benefits to Maine’s economy have been well documented over time. Many others before me have discussed those benefits and are marked for more familiar with the project, than I. I am here today to simply add the associations supports...to a project that will not only bring an efficient way to transport goods from New Brunswick to Quebec on Ontario; but would also open a more efficient delivery corridor from the coast of Maine and Canada, to markets in Michigan, Illinois, and beyond. The potential of utilizing the corridor for other purposes, such as the delivery of energy, only serves to make the project a more valuable asset; and will help Maine compete in the global market place.
In past Legislative sessions, the Association has testified in opposition of privatizing existing state capacity, until the tolling of existing capacity as a mechanism to fund current in, infrastructure. We have been and continue to be, however open to the idea of tolling new capacity where industry can do a cost benefit analyst of utilizing that capacity. One caveat to paying tolls on new capacity, would be that we would con...we continue to believe that industry should not pay additional state and Federal road use taxes for miles traveled on such private roads.
The proposed private road is laid out by those advocating the ‘East-West Highway,’ Would give trucking companies the opportunity to save hundreds of miles of travel , utilizing the planned alternative route; as opposed to taking current routes of travel. The ability to haul on the private road, at weight limits and configurations not authorized in Maine, or on other U.S. highways, adds another factor in the equation, that would be attractive to those companies; looking to move goods in a safe, efficient and cost effective manner.
In addition this project as proposed, would be entirely funded by private dollars, another point that we see as important. Investing state dollars in an investment grade study would demonstrate state support for this private project; and would return many times the investment to the state’s economy. The association understands the difficult budget, ah, the state finds itself in; but believers on balance, this is a very wise investment. Thank you and I’ll be happy to answer any questions the committee may have.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions of Mr. Doyle? Representative Perry, you have a question.”
Representative Perry : “Thank you Mr. Chair. Ummm....(Short pause.) If this road was built how much time does that save; with the products down east going to Detroit, Chicago? Do you have any idea, roughly how much?”
Tim : “Ahhh...I don’t have an, an exact time; but it certainly would be hours if not days. Ah, as you know, trucking companies are regulated by the hours of service. They’re limited to driving no more than 11 hours a day; and so the ability to save any time, certainly makes the industry much more productive.”
Senator Collins : “Any other questions? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony.”
Tim : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671? Please announce your name for the audience, as well as the listening audience.”
Steve Perry
Steve : “Senator Collins, members of the Transportation Committee, my name is Steve Perry and I’m a resident of Lincoln Maine. I’m also, ah, Chief estimator in Marketing for Sargent Corporation. A family owned company, located in Stillwater Maine. And for the last 80 years, ah, we have been a construction company with about 400 employees. And our main focus has been in construction. Highway markets have been one of those major sectors. And over the years, what we’ve experienced, is that, the highways of the system, in, the State of Maine, is our lifeblood. And you’ve heard very good testimony today; I’m not going to reiterate that. But it is the lifeblood; and given the opportunity the State of Maine, given...with all the people and businesses, to compete...with there’s no limits, to what we can do and bring the state back. And thank you very much for your comments. Ah, thank you very much for your time and , I’ll welcome any questions.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions? Seeing none, thank you. Any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671? Please step forward. Does that close the testimony in favor of? (Pause.) Any testimony (Hesitant.) in opposition to L.D. 1671? Please step forward and announce your name. Is this in opposition to L.D. 1671?
Anthony Dunn
Anthony Dunn : “…I’d like to present the committee…”
Senator Collins : “Sir, ah, I manage this committee room.”
Anthony Dunn : “O.K.”
Senator Collins : “…And, ah…”
Anthony Dunn : “O.K. Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Can you give your testimony please?”
Anthony Dunn : “Ummm…(pause.) Yeah, I got a couple of parts. First I was prepared, I’ve, some prepared notes, but, ah, based on what I heard today, maybe I got a couple of responses too. Yeah, my name is Anthony Dunn, and I’m here to speak in opposition to L.D. 1671: $300,000 feasibility study for a proposed highway across the middle of the state of Maine, ought not to pass for many reasons. I’m a resident of Portland and a founding member of a state wide Maine rail-trans coalition. Coalition of transportation, housing, energy and environmental professionals and businesses that seek the balance funding in transportation. In a manner that provides for sustainable jobs, increase land values and of course environmental protection. Our Organization advocates for intergraded system of transportation and considers all modes of moving goods and services. With an emphasis on the efficacies of railway transportation systems. And specifically state and Federal policies that encourage and in many cases require that alternative to road building be considered in all analysis of road construction projects. I, Ummm…and, Ummm…I don’t have it right here in my hand, but the state of Maine recently, ah, completed, just so it might be able to maybe how much it cost and how long it takes, to do a feasibility analyst. The state of Maine recently complete3d, ah, a Portland (Note to readers: speaker jumbled his words too fast to decipher here.)…finance study looking for alternative modes for the Portland corridor North. It cost $1.3 million. It took 5-6 years to complete, and it was being based on all the former studies that were done, In other words, all the data was there, it took 5 years and $1.3 million to complete the Portland North, (Note to readers: Again, words are said so fast and scrambled, it is impossible to decipher here.)…study, and they did not do an environmental analyst. Just an idea of what it takes, and what it costs to do the studies.
I’m also a Realtor. I practice commercial real estate. I have been since 1982 in Maine. I also practice in New Hampshire. Ummm…I discovered many years ago the value of transportation to commercial real estate. And in fact, have found great success in practicing the theory that when a rail way crosses the center of a town or city, that the property surrounding that location is value often not recognized by planners, policy makers or to my advantage, realtors. Ummm…but there’s great value in rail. In fact my findings are now are showing up in hundreds of millions of dollars in new jobs being created along the Down East Amtrak corridor. But, also my findings are supported by National surveys and findings by a variety of interests, including, ah, the National Association of Realtors. Somewhere here, I have this study. I tell you, I have all these 1990’s studies with me, if anybody wants a reference with them. Ah, the N.A.R. smart growth transportation, ah, work book…great book for realtors and transportation planners, ah, explains that the importance of transportation to real wealth, to creation of wealth. Ummm…it’s important to note, and this is true to more studies than the N.A.R., that most findings show that, new road building is not attracting economic development. And in fact, we are finding that road construction, maintenance and repairs are more of a burden on municipal and state budgets, than equal or lower investments in passenger rail and multi-modal transit systems. With of course a greater investment.
If our goal is to move goods, ah, please there’s a map I gave all of you, that shows the railways of Maine. We got a railway that follows the same corridor. It’s there. It hasn’t been used as much as it use to be. Not that long ago though. So if, if the goal is to move goods, we already have a rail road. And so…what are we asking for? I heard a lot of this today, but still didn’t get where the jobs are coming from, besides the construction jobs. What are we shipping that is so important that requires a Billion dollar plus, strip of pavement across the center of Maine? And why is it so important to do it now? On with that note, I really, really would look/ ask for a explanation for the difference between a resolve and an L.D.. I don’t think we were given that earlier. Ummm…and why are we doing it right now? You are going to appropriations with a $250 Million shortfall. We’re slashing Health and Human Services. We’re threatening to close schools. And we are, last I heard, seven hundred million, but at least hundreds of millions of dollars short of paying to maintain the very expensive roads and bridges we have right now. I liked hearing that we saved a million dollars in transportation, the other day. And I enjoy knowing that, that they can find $300,000 for planning when we need it. But, that’s not the story that I got sitting in these transportation committee, over the past couple of years. It’s actually, we got great shortfall in our transportation budget.
Hey, your, you have your notes. I’m not going to spend too much time on the idea of the individuals working behind the scenes. But, I would like to say, that right now, the process in Maine State Law requires full public participation. Not behind the scenes. Before you move into spending big bucks or any bucks, on another consultant to write a plan for what appears to me, to be a predetermined outcome.
In addition, Federal Transportation funding requirements since at least 2005, have required that all alternative modes be considered, in order to be viable requests for transportation funding. I did hear today, that we’re going to be looking at all modes. Not quite how I think it will be done, but…(pause,) that was one, ah, bright spot.
We have great issues before us. Jumping on a bandwagon for building a new paved highway, is not the solution. We need a system attic evaluation, of all our needs, all the resources. Before you begin to use new resources on a project, that will just perpetuate our problems.
I heard someone ask, ‘If we built this 20 years ago, how much different would our economy be now?’ Well, considering that we have to rebuild a road every ten years, at cost of about a million dollars a mile; I think that billion dollar ‘Boon-doggle’…(Woman in audience chuckles.) Will, would cause our economy to be all poorer. So…(Exhales deeply.) at great risk of rate…or the wraith, of, I mean, what…I just heard that every lobbyist in the state of Maine, representing construction companies across the state of Maine…”
Senator Collins : “Mr. Sullivan, I got to interrupt you for one second. Ummm…we’re here to conduct a public hearing on the resolve to appropriate $300,000 to do a feasibility study. So, if you’re going to address your comments to that, I appreciate it.”
Anthony : “ I was…I thank you sir. I look for public support, of even a $300,000 expenditure and I did not see it here today at this public hearing. And I guess I’ll close with just a quick final remark, is that, Ummm…(Long pause.) That power point presentation was incorrect. It was misleading. And again, at risk of making enemies, or although like I said to Senator Thomas earlier, ‘I look forward to speaking with critics, and showing them the light.’ But that was wrong and misleading ad, Ummm…I would suggest that we do not pass this bill.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions…”
Anthony : “Any questions?”
Senator Collins : “” For Mr. Sullivan? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony.”
Anthony : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Any additional testimony in opposition to L.D. 1671? Please step forward. (Pause.) And for the record, for those in the audience, as well as the listening audience, announce your name please.”
Bob Weingarten
Bob Weingarten : “My name is Bob Weingarten, from, ah, Vienna Maine.” (Pause. Then whispering.) “Testimony I have.” (Another pause, then back to normal voice volume.) “I am here today to speak on behalf of ‘Friends of the Boundary Mountains,’ and urge you to vote, ‘ought not to pass,’ on L.D. 1671. This mission of the ‘Friends of the Boundary Mountains,’ is to safe guard the Boundary Mountains, from development and to conserve the area for traditional uses of recreation, forestry and wildlife habitat. The Boundary Mountains of North Western Maine, offer to the sauntering eye, an invitation of wonder and joy. Here in a tiny corner of, ah, New England, there is precious ground. Throbbing with the inexhaustible, ah, rhythm of nature and providing the tonic of wildness. The Boundary Mountains are well appreciated, by those that visit and enjoy it’s spender. This is remote country. It’s wild and unique. As you drive from Stratton Maine to Canada, you will note some of the natural and historic features, of this special region. Many points of interest are beckon your further exploration, as you pass through the Boundary Mountains. Yet, threats to the Boundary Mountains, include the ‘East-West Highway.’ Which proponents envision blasting through the mountains, carrying four lanes of truck traffic, with the attendant of noise and pollution.
Once again, the Boundary Moun…Ah, ah, oh,….Once again the “East-West Highway,’ is, ‘raising its ugly head.’ This time as a private toll-road. We don’t know the exact proposed route. But, from the map that I’ve seen from the presentation, it’s looks like it will be slicing through the heart of the Boundary Mountains. Since 1999, our group, ‘Friends of the Boundary Mountains,’ has been against any ‘East-West Highway,’ and we continue our steadfast opposition today. This proposal is a terribly destructive environmental ‘Boon-Doggle.’ Such development, ah, would be contrary to economic interest of Northern and Western Maine. And to the detriment to the environment on the communities in those regions. It would be especially, ah, destructive to the tourism industry. I’d just like to add that, in 1999 when we opposed the, ‘East-West Highway,’ the, ah, Maine Sporting Camps association joined with us in our opposition. I don’t know what their…distance today, but there are many tourist, Ummm…organizations, and, and, and individuals in my area, who would oppose this. Because it would not bring what people…rather it, would just ah, it would bypass the communities and the, and the places where they go.
Now furthermore, it is utterly outrageous to even contemplate a general fund appropriation of $300,000 for a feasibility study, in this time of severe, ah, budget cutting of Human Services, Maine Care and Education. It is unethical to use taxpayer, ah, money to fund a private project. And you know, I heard these associated commissioners say that there was, Ummm…’extra planning funds kicking around.’ While there’s extra planning around, they should be going back to the general fund, to, to help the 99% of Maine people who really are struggling in this economy. Not, the 1% Bob Cianbro. So I’ll just conclude saying that, there will be lots of opposition, environmentally, and socially and economically against even a fifth, a, ah, feasibility study. This was a bad idea to begin with, 20 years ago and it’s still a very bad idea. Thank you very much.”
Senator Collins : “Alright, just a moment. Any questions of Mr. Weingarten? Seeing none. Thank you for your testimony.”
Bob Weingarten : “Thank you.”
Chris Buchanans’ public comment opposing L.D. 1671:
Senator Collins : “Any additional testimony in opposition to L.D. 1671? Please step forward, announce your name.”
Chris Buchanan : “Ummm…My name is Chris Buchanan. Ummm…I’m a …”
Senator Collins : “Excuse me?”
Chris Buchanan : “Sorry. My name is Chris Buchanan. I am an organizer with Defending Water for Life in Maine. Ummm…and we are opposed to L.D. 1671. Ummm…There are very many reasons why we’re opposed to this Bill. Ummm…the feasibility study and the highway in general. I know that you’ve heard a lot today, Ummm…and I’ll try to go through it as quick as I can.
Ummm…first and foremost, we believe that it’s extremely unethical for the state to be looking at, Ummm…public funding for a private project. Ummm…especially in the face of cuts, to Health Care and Social Services. Ummm…as the committee is aware, from, Ummm…Senator Thomas’s Ummm…sponsorship, Ummm…of the Bill and testimony. Ummm…the ‘East-West Highway,’ is obviously proposed to be a private toll road. Ummm…I’ve heard Senator Thomas saying many times, in his initial sponsorship, that, ‘this study wouldn’t be funded by taxpayers, but rather by private of Federal funds.’ And he was going to try very hard to make sure that, that happened. Ummm… But that didn’t work out. So, now we’re looking at $300,000 of taxpayer money and Ummm…we don’t think that, that’s honest. Ummm…especially with what people are facing today.
Ummm…I’ve heard a lot of people speak today, that we’re ‘looking for innovative and creative solutions to problems that we have in Maine.’ Ummm…with the economy, needs for jobs, Ummm…people really need something. And I don’t think that the center of Maine is hollow. Ummm…I really ask this committee, to look into the future and ask what people want in Maine, for the long term. We’re looking right now at rising fuel costs associated with less supply of fossil fuels. More demand of fossil fuels. We’re facing ‘Peak Oil.’ We’re not always going to have access to fossil fuels. Ummm…and we feel like it’s incredible unwise, and irresponsible to support any project that would increase infrastructure for fossil fuel use. Ummm…primarily, because it’s a project that you can’t take down. Ummm…you’re creating this, infrastructure that would impact Maine irreversibly, Ummm… for ah…we believe very little benefit to Maine, So, I go on with that. Ummm…what we, I like to focus on the positive, so, Ummm…what we really urge you to focus on, are alternatives that will benefit Maine people and our local economy. Ummm…although it may be beyond the scope of this committee in a broader sense. As a voice for the people and leaders in your communities, Ummm…really urge you to support initiatives that would spur local growth. Ummm…like assisting Mainers in creating value added products,As a promotion our first 100 advertisements will be free with the option of being permanent. (To be permanent, a working phone number and the business must still be in operation.) You can make inquiries to:
Music Trade Magazine @ hotmail.com Ummm…revitalizing smaller communities. Ummm…we feel like the ‘East-West Highway,’ would reduce the health and accessibility of Maine’s Environment. By burning more fossil fuels, Ummm…and investing in an infrastructure that will become more and more obsolete over time. Ummm…In addition to supporting the fossil fuel consumption in a world that is realistically running out of fossil fuels and facing climate change. Ummm…there’s lots of reasons, in addition that it wouldn’t benefit Maine. Ummm…its primary use, as we’ve heard from a lot of the proponents, was that it would be a ‘thru-way,’ for Canadian transport trucks. Ummm…the number that we’ve proposed for this toll would be $75 to cross Maine. Ummm…there will be few on and off ramps, as we’ve heard. Ummm…other than to refueling station or rail yards. I don’t see, Ummm…tourists spending an exorbitant amount of toll to travel on this road. Ummm…I don’t see tourists wanting to use, possibly you know, between two and four on and off points, Ummm…to access Maine. And that’s one of, Maine’s primary economic, Ummm…sectors.
Ummm…in addition when we talk about local business, Ummm…and local economic viability, Ummm…you also want a lot of access, in that way. And again, you know, I question, who this road is really for. Is it for companies that have a lot of money, Ummm…or is it for Mainers? Ummm…(exhales to sign deeply.) One thing that I heard mentioned, Ummm…by Mr. Vigue, was that Oxford food, Ummm…and McCain are already here, as the world’s largest producers of blueberries and potatoes. Ummm…so if we’re seeing such significant businesses already operating in the northern part of Maine, then what is it about? They’re already connected in, and Maine’s still struggling. So, I think again, back to the creative, more local economy, Ummm…I highly encourage you to look at that route. Ummm…We’re concerned that, with increased diesel traffic, that brings increased pollution, run off, a lot of negative environmental impact and ongoing decrease of land values surrounding the highway. Ummm…you are effectively splitting the highway, Errr…or splitting the state between southern and northern, by having this corridor. Ummm…and we think it would vastly reduce Maine’s tourist appeal. Ummm…which is a significant source of income, as I’ve said, I’m sorry. Ummm…I’m not going to get into the environmental impacts too heavily. We know it’s going to run over three major rivers, numerous water sheds, Ummm…three unbroken forest lands. We believe it will cause irrefutable damage, Ummm…that is the heart of Maine’s identity and why people live here. People live here because they love Maine. They don’t live in Pennsylvania where they’ve taken out most of the coal. They don’t…there, there, there’s a big difference between Maine and a lot of other places. And I hear people talking about, how it would be important to, Ummm…make Maine more like those places. Where people have more economic opportunity. Well, there’s a reason why people live here. Ummm…and if they wanted to live in a place that had a ‘thru-way,’ for transport trucks and increased trade, then, them, that’s where they would live. Ummm…but people enjoy our environmental here and the way that life is.
Ummm…we think that the project will actually create few jobs. Contrary to what a lot of folks have said, lobbying. Ummm…especially in comparison to jobs in social services, that are facing cuts. Ummm…we know that it’s a private project. We know that it’s been something that Cianbro has been talking about for many years. Ummm…I don’t know who is going to work on the project. But we do know that, Ummm…if Cianbro is a contractor, they, they move their workforce. When a project ends, they’ll move their workforce to the next project. So, I do know how much ‘new jobs,’ will be created by contractors, that regularly do large infrastructural projects. Ah, they have a workforce. Ummm…in addition if there’s some gas station service jobs, that would be more jobs. Toll worker jobs are created, but Ummm…we expect those to become obsolete over the next three years with automation. Ummm…So.
Finally and critically, Ummm…and actually the reason why Defending Water for Life got involved, Ummm…is because, this project exposes Maine’s exploitation of raw resources and materials, by multi-national corporations, that do not provide many jobs. Do not spend their profits in Maine and do not pay taxes here. Raw material extraction is, is not a way that we are going to subvert the Maine economy. Ummm…it’s just a way that, some of the most valuable wealth in Maine and the core of Maine’s identity,
will get taken away out of the state, and not be accessible for local people. Or people that want to make a living off on it, over the long term. Ummm…we think that exporting lumber, bulk water and gravel is very short sighted, and devastate the future of our home. Ummm…in regards to a potential ‘super corridor,’ for future L.N.G. pipelines, high voltage transmission lines, Ummm…from Industrial Wind projects. Ummm…we just feel like this project is critical in terms of the fate of Maine. It could irresistibly damage it and we are not seeing any benefits. So, that’s why, Ummm…Defending Water for Life in Maine, is opposed. Ummm…I’ve heard a lot today that’s makes me excited about spending time in work sessin with you folks. Ummm…I would like to do more research that could be helpful. Ummm…I am dedicated to trying to find objective, Ummm…facts and I appreciate your time very much. Thank you for having me.”
Rep. Cebra : “Is there any other questions from members of the Committee? Representative Bowdoinham.”
Chris : “you have a question? Oh, I’m sorry.”
Rep. Cebra : “Representative Bowinham.”
Rep. Bowinham : “Thank you.”
Chris : “I’m sorry, thanks.”
Rep. Bowdinham : “Ummm…good job, I’m appreciating where you’re coming from. But when you had a statement in there that derogating an ‘East-West Highway,’ into dividing the State. Just looking at it, I see it completely opposite.”
Chris : “Mmph.”
Senator Bowdinham : “As bringing…kind of tying the state in together. What would you say about that?”
Chris : “Well, I, I, I guess I see…I don’t see how a road that primarily used to, to connect one part of Canada to another part of Canada, Ummm…links people together in Maine. Ummm…People that want to visit each other in Maine do have smaller roads that they travel on regularly.”
Senator Bowdinham : “I just felt I’d ask that. Thank you.”
Rep. Cerbra : “Are there any other questions from members of the Committee? Seeing none, thank you.”
Chris : “Thanks very much.”
Jody Spear
Representative Cebra : “Is there anyone else present, who would like to testify in opposition to L.D. 1671? Seeing none. Is there anyone…”
Jody : “Oh!” (Chuckles, then room breaks out in small laughter.)
Representative Cebra : “We all know that there is an answer to that question.” (More laughter from room.)
Jody : “I thought that there would be more.”
Representative Cebra : “Good afternoon.”
Jody : “Good afternoon Senator Collins and Representative Cebra, and members of the Committee. I sent some testimony to you yesterday by email. And I may include some extemporary comments as I go through it. The. The route that…”
Representative Cebra : “Could, could you, ah, just state your name and your, ah…”
Jody : “Oh, sorry. I’m Jody Spear. I live in Brooksville. Ummm…I’m not from ‘away.’ By the way. I grew up in Maine. The route proposed for peter Vigue’s industrial highway goes very close to a number of landmarks that draw, ah, people from all over the World. Ah, Moosehead lake, is only one example. Ummm…destroying priceless wetlands and growth forests in the process. Three major rivers would have to be bridged. And the environmental harm the project would cause, along with vanish to wildlife habitat are reasons enough to deny permits.
The last of Maine’s wilderness needs permanent protection from Developers, and taxpayers should not be burden with any costs of funding a project. Including the $300,000 being demanded for a feasibility study. Who stands to profit from this scheme? Cianbro Construction and it’s investors. Canadian truckers moving imported goods from the Port of Halifax to Quebec; Any number of extractive industries taking Maine water and wood chips to East Coast shippers for export. The selectmen of Searsport who are promoting a container Port on Sears Island, One of whom serves on this committee, (Note to readers: nervous coughing in background blocked our possible name.) filed a request with Senator Collins for, ‘East-West Highway,’ funding. Obviously with a plan in mind to bring more commercial activity to their town. Unfortunately what it would bring is disaster. Compromising the quality of life for the entire state. Like the container port, in Searsport, this highway through Maine’s North woods is a bad idea.
I object also to the scheduling of L.D. 1671 as an emergency bill. It benefits only multi-national corporations, not the citizens of Maine and we say: ‘No.’ We ask you to not to pass the resolve. Ummm…I can’t really resist, ah, in view of some of the comments I heard about this being environmentally, Ummm…supportive. Ummm…the fact that this…(pause.) It goes against everything that Maine stands for. It’s ‘killing the golden goose.’ We don’t have ‘a hollow to be filled.’ We have something priceless. That people who, live there care about. People who, who think of Maine as a place for, for rest and relaxation, care about, and we shouldn’t destroy it. Thank you very much.”
Representative Cebra : “Thank you. Are there any questions from members of the committee? Seeing none, we thank you for your testimony. Is there anyone else present who wishes to testify in opposition to L.D. 1671? Step forward.”
Jenny Gray
Jenny : “Hi.”
Representative Cebra : “Good Afternoon.”
Jenny : “Good Afternoon.”
Representative Cebra : “State your name and residence.”
Jenny : “O.K.. Jenny Gray. Ah, I live in Wiscasset. I wasn’t planning on doing this. I was at a different protest. But, I decided to come to this one, ‘cuz…ah, O.K.! So, anyway, ‘What’s your point?’ I, I did work construction. I was probably…well that doesn’t matter. I loved working construction. Ummm…I understand it. Ummm…I don’t anymore. But, I think we’re at a juncture. Globally, locally, state, where we’re being at, to transition our energies. And I would ask that A.G. Sargent, Ummm…who taught me how to drive dump trucks, Cianbro, Ummm…and the big corporations, to think about transitioning our workforce. Ummm…(pause.) They could re-train them. We need farms. They could become…they could go into the farming industry. They could train their people to, ah, build train engines. They could train their people to, ah, lay track and do maintenance.
Ah, the oil, in the World’s going to go down. I don’t know how much oil it takes to, ah, do a mile of road. I know that there’s 7 gallons in every tire, on every car. I don’t think that the ‘tar-sands,’ is going to go through. It’s dirty, Ummm…it’s corrosive, it’s a last straw that we’re grasping at. I think a lot of what we’re doing now is grasping at the old ways. To continue doing things the old ways, when we should be looking at transitioning. Ummm…I believe rail can haul a hell of a lot more freight than the trucking industry. A lot of my friends are, ‘Red-Necks.’ They’re truckers, they’re ’18 wheelers.’ I used to live with them down in Jersey. I am from ‘away.’ Ummm…I understand…(pause,)…but it’s a time when all of us are going to have to stop doing what we’ve been doing and do something different. And I think the big companies have the resources to do that. If they put their mind to it. Ummm…the oil’s going away. Trains are a lot more efficient. Oh, and P.S. I love the woods. Yeah, Ummm…the wild things. I think that the farming…I think that they can transition into different kinds of businesses. We can’t keep doing things, the way we’ve been doing them. The highway’s not going to help a dammed thing. Ummm…rail, water, and local. And the big companies should be in on the transition, and not, trying to keep doing things, ‘the same ol’, same old.’ Thank you for your time, Good Day.”
Representative Cebra : “Thank you. Are there any, ah, questions from members of the committee? Seeing none. Is there anyone else present who wishes to speak in opposition to L.D. 1671? Good afternoon.”
Dave Wood
Dave : “Good afternoon. My name is Dave Wood. I live in Hallowell. I just have one question for you people. How does this bill qualify as an ‘Emergency bill?’”
Representative Cebra : “Oh! That’s right. The work session for this bill is Thursday February 16th at 1 p.m.. That’s when we, ah…”
Diane Messer in audience : “Oh, come on!”
Dave : “Why is it an ‘Emergency bill?’ I want…I think these people would like to know.”
Diane Messer and an unidentified woman in the audience at the same time…
Unidentified woman : “We would like to know.”
Diane Messer : “We have a right to know.”
Unidentified woman : “We would like to know.”
Diane Messer : “Let us know. We came all the way out here.”
Representative Cebra : (Hits gavel at block and then drops is on table.) Ummm…At the work session. I, I, I don’t answer your questions here. I’m sorry. I don’t have an answer to this.”
Diane Messer in audience : “We don’t need a work session to answer this.”
Dave : “I think, there’s like a 90 day delay or something, if it’s an Emergency bill. So, you’re buying…are you trying to buy 90 days to get this approved? Is that, is that the answer? I don’t…I just wondered why it’s an emergency bill.”
Representative Cebra : “Any bill…That’s right, any bill can be an emergency bill. Emergency is a, ah…”
Dave : “Well, why is that this stuff seems to meet the, ah, definition that I saw it online…of Emergency bills? Well, it’s for health, safety…”
Representative Cebra : “The…”
Dave : “…Public Safety, or Health or something like that.”
(Pause.)
Representative Cebra : “No, I think he’s correct, on these points. So…(Pause.) No I don’t see an Emergency on this on its own. But the Original bill was an emergency, but the resolve that they…no….I don’t think it is. No, I don’t believe the resolve…”
Dave : “It’s not an emergency bill?”
Unidentified voice : “It’s not an Emergency bill.”
Unidentified woman : “No.”
Dave : “So, you have 90 days to make this?”
Representative Cebra : “The, ah, the way that the process works is, is that a emergency bill with an emergency , enacted when signed by the Governor, ah, becomes law immediately. That’s why they, they call it an ‘Emergency bill.’ A, ah, bill that’s not an Emergency, or doesn’t have the Emergency language in it, Ummm…once signed by the Governor, ah, becomes law 90 days after the Legislature is done. That’s the difference between an Emergency bill.”
Dave : “So, this is not, as far as Emergency under the bill it’s not…O.K…”
Representative Cebra : “Alright?”
Dave : “Thank you.”
Representative Cebra : “Are there any questions from members of the Committee? Seeing none. Are there any other members of the public wishing to speak in opposition to L.D. 1671? Step forward please.”
Will Neils Public Comment
Rep. Cebra : “…Are there any other members of the public wishing to testify in opposition to L.D. 1671? Step forward please.”
Will : “Hello Representative Cebra and, ah, our absent other committee chair Collins and all. My name is Will Neils. I’m a lifetime resident of Appleton, Knox County. Northern Knox County. And as many have stated, so enthusiastically where the area they are from, I’d like to consider it the most beautiful area of Maine. But unfortunately there’s all those people from ‘away,’ who remind us that it isn’t anymore. And that’s, you see, part of the problem of course, with what happens when you open up gateways and things. It’s all very exciting here, as we’re talking about this. Ummm…I know it seems really, really, valuable to all the business people who think it’s a good idea. Ummm…but unfortunately, none of the less, we still need to deal with some very, very basic cold hard facts about this proposal. I think, first cold hard fact is this, if, if we’re diluting ourselves into believing that this highway, which they’re been floating, I believe since sporadically in different forms, since the Great Depression. I mean, it dates from the Roosevelt Administration, originally. It’s in the original suggestions about this. So if we had 80 years to do this in the State of Maine, with Federal Money and they still haven’t figured out a way to get the public to fund it. It seems relatively delusional, to believe that the private sectors’ going to step up and do it immediately, if they haven’t already. I mean, you would think they would run into it. I wonder why thy’re holding back. Ummm…but none of the less, Ummm…we have to recognize that this will have a very, very hard affect on Northern Maine. There will be cultural repercussions. Anytime a community is ‘blown up,’ and I think anybody who has a large four lane highway put to their community, if they grew up there, would consider it be sort of ‘blown up.’ You know, it sort of changes differently, culturally and everything. Ummm…and if you don’t agree with me, go to Belgrade. It’s not there, but it’s awful close. Isn’t it? Gosh, and there’s a lot of people in there from ‘away,’ with their money. Because it’s so conveniently easy to access in the ‘beamer.’ And that’s the thing, you see about access. The access here…I don’t know. But I’m not sure a lot about the folks who live up and around Dover-Foxcroft, Sangerville, where I hang out, some of those places. I don’t know if they’re going to have 50, 75, 100. We don’t exactly know how many dollars it’s going to be to participate in this nifty private highway. But I doubt very much that any local Mainers are going to be able to (Note to readers: coughing in audience blocked out a word.) on it. So that means, what you got is, what you have when you travel through Central America. Some of those really nifty privately funded highways down in Mexico. Which I think, are favored by all sorts of different business. You know how many different kinds of businesses are in Mexico. Ummm…but the reality is, it’s cost prohibited to the communities that they run through. You don’t get to participate in it. So that’s one cold hard fact we should begin to start to get in our heads. Because that of course is going to be one of the things your constitutes will hold you accountable for latter, if you presented to them, that this is going to be some sort of positive thing for them. And then they find out they can’t even participate economy. I have a sneaking suspicion they may hold you accountable for that, in fact, and that’s one of the things we have to recognize.
So, A) is cost. It’s going to be cost prohibited to us, the Mainers. Then at that point and time we must get into, ‘Why would it be happening?’ Well, I guess then it’s got to be beneficial to those Canadian companies. Which, thank you so much Pete,
for being so truthful about everything. We do appreciate you listing ‘Irving,’ twice. They are quite powerful here in this part of the region. Ummm…It’s important for us to remember, it’s the Canadian companies who are driving this discussion. Ummm…The only people you’d find in this state, who will stand up for it, right now, are a few representatives of some trade organizations who signed on. Besides Pete of course, he’s going to make a lot of money on this, so if he wants it, but; but none-of-the-less, I point out, we didn’t see one citizen who didn’t have a ‘nifty,’ title. (Note to readers: Next sentence was spoken too fast to transcribe.) …speak for this. Not one citizen. There are title. Titles, everybody had titles. O.K.? And I think that, that’s, that’s a really good interesting sign. We did have the lady right here, who runs the Heritage Farm, which I think is really important. Ummm…but none-of-the-less, that’s the point. Is this is not about us having some symbolic token celebration of by gone Maine History and era and past. The reality is, there isn’t a, ‘hollow section,’ of Northern Maine, that ‘encompasses the east, west and north,’ apparently as some people believe. That actually is the last living active culture we have in this state, that hasn’t been destroyed yet.
I went to high school in Camden. Appleton you get routed to Camden for high school. So we had the great joyous benefit of associating with all those annoying children from ‘away,’
and cultural repercussions of that. We lost most of the coast. O.K., that culture that we’re all so proud of. Good luck being fishermen in Camden Harbor now. O.K.? So, that’s the whole point, you, know, is, is, if we don’t draw lines in the sand, and start talking about our communities, our real communities, the heart of Maine, not the ‘Hallow part.’ The heart of Maine, is our heritage and our culture. And it’s the traditions which have kept at least a huge portion of this state, somehow rational, in the face of the insane culture, which America has attempted to drive down our throats. And we have to acknowledge that, because our elders, the ‘old-timers,’ in the Heart of Maine, they always knew, it was a scam. It was just the folks who got ‘conned,’ into coming down here to Augusta, and moving to Bangor or going to Portland who didn’t realize it was a scam.”
A State Representative with no name given : “Point of order.”
(Sound of gavel coming down.)
Rep. Cebra : “Representative, excuse me.”
Unidentified State Representative : “I’m not sure…”
Rep. Cebra : “Representative…”
Unidentified State Representative : “I’m not sure this discussion is germane to the bill. It’s a resolve that we’re talking about. It’s not a done deal.”
Will Neils : “I point out Pete Vigue got to pontificate for 35 minutes here.”
(Audience starts clapping a little.)
Unidentified State Representative : “About the bill.”
(Room breaks out into louder applause. Gavel comes down.)
Rep. Cebra : “There will be order in the room.”
Will Neils : (Chuckles.) “There will be order, as long as it’s fair sir.”
( Two beat pause.)
Rep. Cebra : “I just want to, I just want to say one thing.”
Will Neils : “Yes sir.”
Rep. Cebra : “O.K.? Because the Chairman…the Senate Chair, didn’t read this at the beginning of the hearing, but: ‘The purpose of this hearing is to invite testimony from members of the public regarding the proposed legislation, that is pending before this committee. The committee will hear the testimony from persons, ah, to be heard today with lead of a chair. Committee members may ask questions of any person testifying today. Other questions are not permitted. Whether or not you testify, you may submit written testimony to the committee and it will be distributed to committee members. Please keep your comments, to the bill, the resolve at hand, L.D. 1671. That’s all. That’s it. It’s done.’”
Will Neils : “Thank you, Rich.”
Rep. Cebra : “No, it’s Chairman Cebra. Thank you.”
Will Neils : “Yes sir.” (Clears throat.) “In returning to the resolve, ah, with the suggestive expenditure of $300,000. I believe it is not necessarily exclusively accessed to global markets, as suggested by some. Which hinder our ability to value add our products in this state. The simple reality is, if we had more ways to value add blueberries, instead of selling them raw to other companies which process them. Other ways to value add a variety of the things we do produce in this state, that would change the economic dynamics at hand. The problem is a lack of vision. And so therefore when people step up here and claim of course that is the challenge, you have to address it. Ah, I apologize Representative Cebra, if I got off topic. But, none-of-the-less, it is concerning to me, because we have to deal with the facts. When you sell stuff, raw, with almost no refinement, you’re not getting your dollar value added. It’s that simple. And so I don’t believe, that exclusively trucks routes (Inaudible word.) hampering certain value adding Maine products. And I think that’s relatively…(Inhales deeply.) It’s just inefficient and it’s disingenuous to claim it is.
Let’s get back to a couple of very specific points here. Representative Thomas claimed that the good folks who were providing hard-wood products, up there in his general area, and to reach out further for their white birch. Ummm…perhaps they’re be reaching out to Canada. So that way, we’ll be importing tree’s from outside the state of Maine. That concerns me. Ummm…Senator Sherman with the Maine Canadian advisory commission, (clears throat.) explained in depth about, ah, how supportive the Canadians are of this. I’m not surprised. Ummm…I would consider them to be ignorant, if they weren’t supporting us expending this money to their benefit. Ummm…I’m sure they would be supportive of this. Ummm…I’m sure they would be supportive of this. Ummm…I just don’t think we should be supportive of this, and I don’t think you should be.
Deputy Commissar Van Note, who pointed out that the study has symbolically attached a $300,000 total. But, it’s not really clear, it may exceed that. That’s been called up to question by a variety of different people. Including people supporting, who support the (inaudible word.) study. Ummm…(exhales into a sign.) The ‘hallow middle,’ Mr. Vigue stated that this, ‘fulfills Maine’s hollow middle. The east, west and north.’ I guess it’s going to fill it with…what? Ummm…Canadian legal road trucks that have double trailers? Ummm…I doubt there’s a ‘hallow middle,’ in this state. I think there is a lack of respect for our cultural heritage and tradition. I think that, that disconnect does not begin when you get to Augusta. It begins farther north than that. And I think that idea that if we put a road, that totally bi-sects this state, through it, it’s going to make it better for the people above that road, is truly delusional. We have got to recognize that, what we need in this state, is visioning that comes not, exclusively from the giant business sector.
Who can figure out how to be able to scam more hard earned taxpayer dollars out of the government’s coffers. We need a vision that incorporates in the small communities, which are most affected, and that is crucial. The reason this highway has never been built, is because you still cannot get those citizens to step up, and I would ask you; ‘Where are they today?’ It was trade association representatives, who were here and people who will benefit from this. They’re all paid to be here. We are not and never will be. I urge you strongly to vote against this and I urge you to be sensible. Sensible…Think about it. It’s a long hard fight and it’s going to be a big campaign. And it will stay for the duration.”
(Will Neils taps a pen onto the podium three times.)
Rep Cebra : “Ah, thank you for your testimony. Are there questions from members of the committee?”
Will Neils : (Into tape recorder microphone.) “I’m sure there won’t be.”
Rep Cebra : “Seeing none. Is there anyone else who wishes to speak in opposition to L.D. 1671?”
Diane Messer Public Comment on L.D. 1671
Diane Messer : “Is it? The lights on.” (Note to readers: The microphone at the Statehouse committee rooms, light up when they are on.)
Rep Cebra : “Good afternoon.”
Diane Messer : “Good afternoon members of the committee and ah, members of the public. Thank you for being here and being so considerate…”
(Note to readers: This is the end of one tape. The next tape starts here.)
Diane Messer : “…Diane Messer, I reside in the town of Liberty Maine. I don’t think it should matter whether you’re from here of from somewhere else. Those of us who have chosen to be here, choose it for a good reason. We chose Maine for the quality of life that it affords. For the care of the environment. For the pristine quality of the wood. For the wild places. I’m also…because so many others, ah, spoke to the other topics I was going to address, I will, ah, focus my remarks, ah, elsewhere. Ah, I’ve been, ah, very concerned about energy and the, ah, future of transportation in general. (Exhales.) Roads are a dinosaur. They are a dying item that is, ah, should not be promoted. Should not be proliferated any further. The ah, toxic chemicals, the oil all of the different, ah, aspects of our Ummm…production system, that have to go into them. It, It, It’s just…(signs.) It’s not long sighted. What we are doing now, should be for the future betterment of this state. For future generations, to come. Not just for our selfish needs today, not just for our business and for our profit. But should be protecting our way of life.
Oil is going to get more expensive. It’s going to be more and more problematic to provide, all aspects of oil. We’re talking about the refine fuel. The, ah, materials that chemicals are made from it, that go into the roads. We are cutting off our nose to spite our face, If we dontinue to build like this.
We should be focusing on rail and on public transportation. We have wonderful rail system, that is slowly and surly being dismantled in this state. I think it’s a travesty. Not only should we be protecting and supporting the road…the rail systems, but we should be increasing them. And making them more available for business and shipping and commerce. All aspects of transportation. I am offended that we are talking about this ‘East-West Highway,’ as being essential for the betterment of the people of this state…and for the environment. It is neither. We have pasted ‘peak-oil,’ already. This atmosphere is at (coughs,) excuse me. (Coughs.) 392 parts per million of carbon, because of the level that we continue to burn fossil fuels at. Even if we stopped burning fossil fuels today, we would not approach the safe level which scientists have assessed at 350 parts per million, for close to a hundred years, it’s estimated.
Do we want to care for our, our future? For the future for our, our…not only our protragy, but our species. Do we not care, that we are soiling our nests? That we are destroying that which protects our life and sustains us? I think it’s a travesty. I think all of you need to look inside yourselves and think about, it’s not business as usual. It is not a matter of making a dollar of supporting the next project of moving goods from one port to the other. It should be with a great scheme in mind for the long-term future. I am trained to be a long-range planner. That’s what I got my, ah, academic training in. That is what I’ve applied myself to, in community betterment. 20 to 50 year plans. We are violating what we need to do, to ensure our health and well-being. And I urge you to think of this carefully. Very carefully, before you approve this. This is not simply a resolve. This is leading to a very specific project, and we keep that in mind when we deliberate. Thank you very much for your attention.”
Rep Cebra : “Thank you. Are there any questions from members of the committee? Seeing none…”
Sonia Acevedo Public comment opposing L.D. 1671
Rep Cebra: “Is there anyone else who wishes to testify in opposition to L.D. 1671?”
Sonia Acevedo : “Hello Senator Collins and members of the committee. My name is Sonia Acevedo. Ummm…I live in Thorndike Maine. Ummm…I’m a farmer there. Ummm…I have a lot of concerns about private/ public money being used to fund a private road that many of us may not afford to travel on, or use. It seems to be serving out-of-state, Ummm…and international business. Ummm…I think particularly in some of the sh…The budget shortfalls, Ummm…around the Department of Human Services, and public education. I’m a disabled single mother. I depend on Maine Care. Ummm…If I don’t have my medication, I will get sick. My child depends on public education. So, when I speak to this, I’m not speaking of some theoretical, economic equation. I’m talking about the reality of my own life. And there’s a lot of people like me, in Maine who are affected by these kinds of decisions and the way that public money is used.
I also would like to speak to, the way that public money could be used to subsidize studies on how to do cottage… you know, economies. So that, farmers don’t have to struggle as much to get their products on the market. Ummm…I’ve heard a lot of talk about ‘value added products,’ and there’s a lot of barriers. Ummm…legally for people to make their own money in Maine. There’s a lot of barriers to revitalizing local economies here. And if public money is going to be used for something, it should be used for local communities and developing micro economies. Instead of moving into the same, same business proposals that have gotten us into this mace, mess in the first place. Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions for Ms. Acevedo? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony. Any additional testimony in opposition to L.D. 1671? Please step forward and announce your name.”
Benjamin Marriner Pratt
Senator Collins “Any testimony neither for nor against?”
Benjamin : “Oouuiihh! I’m still…I’m against!”
Senator Collins : “Just step up to the mic please.”
Benjamin : “I know I jumped. I…”
Senator Collins : (Chuckles.)
Benjamin : “I wanted to make sure I was. I wasn’t bumping anyone who was still …”
Senator Collins : “Are you in opposition in fact?”
Benjamin : “I’m in opposition, sir.”
Senator Collins : “O.K.. Give me your name please.”
Benjamin : “My name is Benjamin Marriner Pratt and I live in the town of Eddington. And it’s, it’s a pleasure to be back here in Augusta. It’s good to see some old faces and some new ones. Ummm…And I appreciate your time, it’s been a long day. This is obviously a contentious and in theory, Ummm…compassionate debate. And, ah, ah, I, I appreciate everyone’s, ah, respect and everyone’s ah, ah, willingness to be here and listen. Because we aren’t going to solve the problems of the state of Maine, ah, by yelling at each other. And we aren’t going to solve the problems of the state of Maine, ah, by not having these discussions. Sometimes, they’re difficult, sometimes they are hard; but I thank you for listening, and I appreciate your being here. Ummm…and I will try to do, ah, err…(very short pause.) Most of my testimony to focus mostly on, on, what your all job is. Because, for a little while I, I had that one for a little bit, and I, and I think I can, I can say I understand what it’s like to being on, on that side of the horseshoe. And, and I…my question is, is, and I made this argument numerous times, when I was here on a number of other issues; but it’s all, it’s all about an allocation of resources. Right? And I’m talking at this point about, and in your all cases, the Transportation committee in particular,, (Laughter in voice.) it’s about allocating resources. And those are monetary issues. You know, I wish I could talk about all the other resources we have. Human resources and Natural resources, and all those thing. But right now you have a resolve. Now in front of you, that’s been stripped of its emergency. Which, which I question a little bit interestingly, in that now it doesn’t need, Errr, 2/3’s. Now, now it can go, with a simple majority. And now this $300,000 gets decided upon by a simple majority instead of 2/3’s, and, and, and that, that concerns me. Ummm…it, it, it’s a lot of money. You know? And, and, you’ve heard a lot of people talk about it, who can talk about it more passionately, than I am about…making these decisions and where those things are coming from. The fact is $300,000, right now, even if we’re talking about pacific/ specifically in transportation issues, I, I, I think there’s a heck a lot of other places we could be putting that right now, that would make a heck of a lot more sense. And, you know, it’s been said: ‘This idea of, of, of, of public money for private interest, particularly, this time,’ it’s concern…It’s absolutely a concern for me. It’s, It’s hard for me to think, If I was back on that side, going back to my constituents, and saying: ‘I realize your roads are full of potholes. I realize you’re beating the heck out of your cars. I realize we’re requiring you to, ah, to, you know, to, to keep up your inspection and all this and we’re making it harder and harder: because we can’t keep up the roads we have. But we’re going to spend $300,000, so that private companies can, can send big giant trucks across the state. With few, few, if any on and off ramps.’ It just…maybe has it’s time. Maybe it does. I’m not going to tell you, it, it, it, it, it, never does. I don’t think it ‘Jives,’ with my personal, (Inhales and chuckled.) opinions of things. But, but the fact is…if there is a time, it’s certainly not now and, and I, and I question, and urge you folks here, that have a very hard and difficult job to do; and it’s a thankless job and I know that. And I, I appreciate your being her, but you know, the fact is, I don’t know how anybody can go from this table right now, and go back to their folks and say: ‘Hey, we spent $300,000 on, on, on this, on this proposal with everything else that’s going on.’ And even in transportation, even if your focus is solely on transportation, I, I, I don’t know how that goes. So, Ummm…you know, I, I live in the town of Eddington. We have East-West highway issues right now. We’ll talk about 395 and route 9 extensions, that’s been going on forever, and ever and ever. It’s, it’s a whole other mess. You know, we’ve had study groups on that for time and time and time again. We’ve had public input and then all of a sudden, D.O.T. comes out, and does a brand new total route out of nowhere; that we thought, was ‘off the table,’ for years. So, I can appreciate studies. I’ve voted for studies when I was here. I don’t not…I’m not this, ‘anti-study,’ person…(Short pause.) But, I…It’s questionable. And I think, you know, the people out there, in, in the state; the people out there in your communities, you know. They’re having a hard time buying ‘the straight face test,’ on this one, at this point. And, you know, I appreciate the job makers, the job creators, like you know, people, people need jobs. You know? Ummm…how, how they do that and how they maintain their business and how they do that, you know, a lot of that is up to them; and I can’t make judgment decisions for them. O.K.? I might not make the same one. I’m not here, to, to, to give anybody grief about that. Ummm…but, it…when you’re talking about taxpayer dollars, our dollars, and they’re limited, and I know that. They’re getting even more and more limited. And, you know, you’ve heard it talked about, this whole idea, of, or, ‘Peak oil.’ And I, you know, I don’t believe, I’m some crazy here…conspiracy theorist. You know what I mean? I don’t!
But the fact is, I have a hard time investing more and more money , into what I eventually see…and we can talk about how long that takes. Maybe it takes 100 years? Maybe it takes 200 years? Maybe it takes 300 years? I don’t care! The fact is, at some point, that stuff’s gone. And, you know, there was somebody who spoke earlier about, you know…we got to, we got to look at it a new way. Paradigms shift, you know, in time. And unfortunately, maybe good for me, that’s you guys now. You know what I mean? You got, you guys have the policy of committee. You get to make policy. The decisions you make right here say, ‘We as the transportation committee, make policy.’ If your policy is, ‘We’re going t spend $300,000 of your money, to pay, ah, to pay for a feasibility study on this,’ that’s not the policy decision I would make. I appreciate your time. Thank you very much. If you have any questions…”
Senator Collins : “Any questions of Mr. Pratt? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony.”
Benjamin : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Any additional testimony in opposition? Seeing none. Any testimony.”
Christine (Inaudible Last Name.)
Senator Collins : “Any additional testimony in opposition? Seeing none, Any testimony…Welcome.”
Christine : “Hello.”
Senator Collins : “State your name please.”
Christine : “Ummm…my name is Christine…” (Inaudible on the last name. It was not said clearly enough.)
Senator Collins : “And you testimony is in opposition?”
Christine : “Yes.”
Senator Collins : “O.K.. I didn’t catch your last name.”
Christine : “Christine…(Note to readers, sounds like Bagleary, or Bag O’Leary, but couldn’t catch it. Not even sure if her name is spelled Christine or Kristine to be honest.)
Senator Collins : “O.K..”
Christine : “Ummm…so I did not come here prepared to give any kind of testimony; but I’ve been very inspired. So, Ummm…given enthusiasm and other particularizes, that can be, I’m nervous, Ummm…and feeling pretty much…(Last word said too fast to translate.) Ummm…so, I’m from Southern Maine. Umm…and for, Ummm…a very long time, most of my adult life, Ummm…(pause.) the only thing that had made sense to me is farming. I’ve wanted to do that for a very long time. And Ummm…I have been a…(pause.) I had to figure out, how, how, how, to actually, get to the more rural parts of Maine and, and make that happen. Ummm…because of money issues/ transportation issues. Ummm…and what I really feel the need to tell you all, right now, is that: If there was a big huge, ‘East-West Highway,’ going through Somerset County…which is not where I want to farm, but let’s say, let’s say it was, that would not have helped me get there. It would not provide me, any more of an opportunity to be a small farmer in Somerset County! And so this, ‘East-West Highway,’ may provide certain kinds of jobs. It may provide jobs in construction. It may provide jobs in the, Ummm…in the Ummm…gas stations, that are now going to, have to be built, to accommodate this, and maybe jobs for Canadian truckers. Ummm…but for me, or someone who wants to be a small farmer, it does not create that opportunity for me. And so, I believe that this, ‘East-West Highway,’ is, is pushing an…(Hiccup.) Only a certain kind of (Hiccup.) economic opportunity; Ummm…for folks in the area, that it would be going through.
Ummm…(Pause.) furthermore, at a time when social services are being pretty devastated in this state, Ummm…it seems ridiculous to spend this amount of money, Ummm…to do a feasibility project. Ummm…and this is something that, like Sonia, Ummm…has real affect in my life. Ummm…I’m someone who, because of the Federal work that I’ve done, for my adult life, have not had health care for ten years. Ummm…I have a father who is disabled, And Ummm…because he has a house, he’s not able to be on Maine Care. He’s only able to have $17. a month on food stamps. Ummm…he’s supporting my brother. They, Ummm…have to go to the food bank. They often run out of food. Ummm…they often run out of oil, Ummm…and wood, for their wood stove. And, Ummm…my brother, Ummm…gets two meals a day for free at school, and if he did not get (Taps podium three times.) those meals. Ummm…my Dad would be in trouble.
So to, (Short pause.) to think about $300,000. at this time going to…to fund a project, Ummm…such as this; that only provides a certain type of economic opportunity, for Ummm…people who are living rurally, Ummm…I think is outlandish. And Ummm….lastly, I would just like to say that, the community…I now live in Unity, and, Ummm…even though I’m, ah, just beginning to build relationships in this community; I can safely say that, Ummm…the community that…of small farmers and, and, Ummm…people participating in rural life in my community have no interest in having these kinds of, Ummm…. This kind of highway and, and Ummm…these kinds of economic opportunities in the area. If they were to, to go through the area.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions? ( Drums both hands on table.) Seeing none, thank you for your testimony. Any additional testimony in opposition to L.D. 1671? Seeing none, any testimony neither for nor against L.D. 1671?”
Doug Papa
Senator Collins: “…Is there any additional testimony in opposition to L.D. 1671? Seeing none. Any testimony neither for nor against L.D. 1671? Sir, step forward and announce you name please.”
Doug Papa : “My name is Doug Papa and, ah, the reason why I’m recording all of this for all of you wondering is, I , I write…I’ve been writing an online series for an online magazine, about the Occupy Augusta Interviews. And the reason why I’m here at this meeting is, ah, this issue has been brought up a couple of times, by one of the people, I’ve been following. I’ve been following five people. If you want to view the interviews online, you can go to Big Time Music Trade . com. Click on articles…(Note to readers, directions said, dealt with when I posted the Occupy Interviews originally on ArchEnemys online magazine, before re-posting them on Big Time Music Trade .com.)
The reason why I’m in front of this meeting is: there was an issue that’s related to a current highway. It’s probably going to be related to this proposed highway, highway bill. Now, ah, right now, Bath Salts are illegal in Maine. And we have a lot of out-of-state container trucks going up the Juniper Ridge Landfill. And now all of a sudden, Bangor has an explosion of Bath Salts. Two pounds of Bath Salt/ Two and a half pounds of Bath Salts is worth like $170,000. My concern with this ‘East-West Highway,’ is, - I’m not for it. I’m not against it. I just have one concern. And that concern is: If this highway is going to link the Maine Maritime Providences, in which we’re going have a lot of out-of-country international trans-ships coming into Canada. Going into, ah, the highway system into” Canada, and it’s going to be going through Maine.
So, it’s going to bypass a lot of Canadian Highways. I guess about 2 hours worth. How is going to be law enforcement on this proposed highway going to be enforced on the Canadian trucks? I know that online, there’s been a lot of issues, about electronically sealed containers. So, if it enters the Port of Maine at Calais, they don’t have to be re-opened until it leaves Maine. Until it reaches Montreal. My concern is illegal drugs being shipped into those containers, and one of those points of entry along the highway. Or those on/off ramps and one of those communities, all of a sudden, miraculously being overrun by illegal substances; such as Bath Salts or other things. If” we’re going to have this study, I strongly urge the committee to put a stipulation on the points that I’m bringing up today.
Now, I don’t mean to bore you. I really know that you folks are busy. But, ah, I know Senator Douglas Thomas seems like he’s a little bored. But I’m not going to…”
(People in room chuckle.)
“I’m not going to focus on it. What I’m going to focus on is, how illegal drugs or illegal substances are going to come through Maine. Possibly get dropped off in Maine, and how that’s going to affect the residents of Maine. Beyond the economic ‘up-bring,’ or, ah, ‘down-wind,’ that this, ‘East-West Highway,’ could bring to the residents of Maine. Now, ah, I see Senator Collins is a little concern with Senator Bill Diamond; so I’ll just end it here and say: Is there any questions from the committee?”
Senator Collins : “Any questions?”
(People in room start laughing.)
Senator Collins : “Seeing none, thank you for your testimony.”
Doug : “Sure.”
Senator Collins : “Any additional testimony? Is this not in opposition? Neither for nor against?”
(Laughing stops for the next speaker.)
Bob Net
Senator Collins : “Any additional testimony? Sir. Is this in opposition or neither for nor against?”
(Note to readers : Laughter in room finally dies down.)
Bob : “Neither for no against anything. Well…”
Senator Collins : “Announce your name please.”
Bob : “Bob Net. You can figure out whether it’s for or against, after I’m done, I guess.”
(Chuckles break out on audience side.)
Senator Collins : “O.K., seeing to this.”
Bob : “Uh, yeah. Uh. First of all, I would like to say, I think there’s one Representative here from the Valley. (Pause.) And most of what I have to say, I exempt the Valley from it. Which…
(Will Neils chuckles, distinctly in audience.)
Ummm…I’m, I’m against this, because it’s a total waste of money. I’m for it, because, it’s a symptom of : for 30 years trying to solve the ‘two Maine problem.’ And so is aid to schools and aid to town and all the rest of it. And, that was begun, by private Liberal Republicans; we use to have those, and ah, Democrats, probably 30 years ago, as I recall. I don’t know. Senator Katz’s Dad. Before that, there really wasn’t state aid to education. All the money being funneled from Southern Maine into Northern Maine, we call this a Central Maine, ‘East-West highway.’ Well Central Maine economically is probably 20 feet north of Portland.
(Light laughter in audience, by one person.)
Central, Central Maine demographically, I’m not sure, but I bet it’s around Bowdoinham. O.K.? So…without any doubt, any thinks, south of Augusta is in a different kind of Maine. Anyway, we ship…We have shipped Billions of dollars, of taxpayers’ money, including low income people, North and East; and to Lyman, but that’s another story.
(Chuckles in audience.)
Ah, and what we’ve gotten back for 30 years is, things really haven’t gotten better up there; And also what we’ve gotten back is…folks up there, have elected a bunch of people, that go like this, to all the rest of us. And that mean, and that mean, ah, and let me, ah.”
Senator Collins : “What, what, what your testimony, and ah.”
Bob : “yeah, all I’m saying is, I’m asking you to look ahead.”
Senator Collins : “I’m going to address you sir.”
Bob : “O.K., yeah.”
Senator Collins : “And the hearing from you , right now is.”
Bob : “Yeah.”
Senator Collins : “You seem to be rambling, and not staying to the point. Either you are for or against this particular Legislation. So, get to the point and let’s hear your testimony.”
Bob : “I’m against shipping more money North. And I think if you keep doing it, you’re going to wind up with an initiative referendum, that regionalizes county wise, set’s the gas tax. Instead of a state gas tax. (Pause.) And everybody will look at me and say, ‘He’s nuts.’ But, gas tax is maybe 30 cents. I see 5 cents for the interstate and then it would be up to each county what they want they want to do on top of that. And I think people in Southern Maine are going to love it. So, you can pass this, but I think your reinforcing…(Long pause.) the impression of people in Southern Maine, and people in Central Maine that…you’re just taking more and more from them and shipping it out. And you can do that, if you want to. I’m just trying to give you. ‘heads up.’ Same thing is going to happen to school aid. Thank you very much.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions? Seeing none. Thank you. Any additional testimony neither for nor against L.D. 1671? Please announce your name before the ‘Mic’, please.”
Denise Pantella
Denise : “My name is Denise Pantella, I live in Kennebunk Maine. I propose that the 12 people who testified in favor of this study, that they get together and for it themselves. I would caution them and I suspect it would cost a lot more than $300,000.”
Senator Collins : “Can you put the ‘Mic,’ down just a little bit closer to your…ther you go.”
Denise : “I propose that the 12 people who testified.”
Senator Collins : (Says something way too fast to translate.)
Denise : (Laughs.) “That they get together and pay for it themselves. I would caution them that I suspect it will cost more than $300,000. And I think the state has no right squandering away $300,000 for corporate profit…Profiteers. Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “That’s your, that’s your testimony?”
Denise : “That’s right.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions? Seeing none, Thank you. Any additional testimony, neither for nor against L.D. 1671? Seeing none. (Gavel hit’s high pitched base.) That concludes the public hearing on L.D. 1671.”
Will Neils Interview
Q : “I’m speaking to Will Neils. He’s going to make a statement about what just took place at the Committee, the public hearing committee.”
A : “Yeah, I think we just heard very clearly, there were approximately 12 people that spoke in support. They were all representatives of business groups, trade organizations, Ummm…specifically lobby groups for big business. Ummm…some of them stand directly, because their companies, ah, like Peter Vigue, stand directly to benefit from it. Ummm…some just spoke for industry wide Lobbyist groups. Like construction as such. But, ah, you know, we didn’t hear from one citizen, who wasn’t being paid to be there to speak today in favor of this. And clearly, we didn’t have one representative who spoke against it. And we didn’t have one citizen who spoke for this proposal, and there were a lot, there were more people who spoke against it, than spoke for it, this resolution. We didn’t have one of the citizens, stand up and point out, that they were being paid to be there. So, I think we had a pretty clear contrast today, in between the circumstances. Between a citizen lobbying force, that was here and trying hard to articulate our voices, and then a business lobby force, that was clearly, obviously being paid and clearly articulating their needs as they saw them. And so, you know, I mean, it’s the classic contrast we have here in Augusta. The difference between the people , with ‘big money,’ who can hire other members of the working community in Maine to fight against the people in their communities. It’s that simple.”
Q : “Now you stated that this has been floated around since the Roosevelt Administration. Do you think there’s any consequence between the, ah, the power grids getting upgraded to export energy outside the state of Maine, and the timing of the proposed ‘East-West Highway’?”
A : “I think it’s, I think, you know, there are a lot of different suggestions they’re having now to working in conjunction. I think one of the challenges that we face, right now, is trying to put this, ah, you know, in a real approach. I wonder, why it is, we in Maine are being asked to fund something, which is clearly only internationally beneficial. It’s going to be Canadian companies. Ah, you know, potentially trans-national shipping companies which will benefit from this. I don’t see how it’s going to affect our state in a positive way, or our citizens in a positive way. So, therefore I question, really the value of those people being able to influence our Legislature, Ummm…towards these ends. I think it’s totally reprehensible and, ah, I really hope that the people who are responsible for it are held accountable.”
A : “And those people, being held account…ah, responsible, would be?”
A : “Well, clearly in business Pete Vigue. But I think, you know, obviously Representative Thomas, Ummm…is, you know, is sponsoring legislation and I have high hopes his constitute base will be concerned and appalled by his support of this. And will hold him accountable, Ummm…possibly in the next election, so.”
Q : “Now how did you feel about being cut off in middle of your speech there, by the Chairman of the committee?”
A : “I…I felt like the Senator actions were, ah, just reflective of a general culture of fear and siege. Which, ah, apparently the politicians and the staff which work here in the Statehouse, are currently suffering under. Ah, we’ve seen the, ah, allocation of a half a million dollars in taxpayer funds to, ah, to fund a, ah, metal detector/searching machine. Which is here to the entrance of the Capital. Which is only sporadically functional. Ah, today it misfired when the metal hit on me. I walked back through and it didn’t hit. I hadn’t moved anything out of my pockets. It just was, ah…it was just, ah, it was just, ah, ah, ah, a malfunction of the machinery. To me, ahmm, the recent, it’s all in the last few weeks, development of the metal detectors. Ummm…the general culture of rear. Hiring former Homeland security officers to work s metal detector associates, former Federal employees. It’s just an example of the basic, ‘siege mentality.’ Which we see manifest itself in the political community, within the State house. I think it’s very sad, and I think it really speaks more than anything to the mentality of the people who actually work within this building. It’s really unfortunate. I as a citizen have always felt it was one of the important parts of my responsibility, as being born and raised in Maine to participate in the process, the democratic process here. And of course it’s just ah…(clears throat.) it’s just, it’s just sad to see politicians and security forces, which are operating in a state of fear, and apparently, clearly are in a state of ‘siege mentality.’ I believe it’s an example of a lack of maturity and lack of insight which will likely be politically painful for them in the long term.”
Q : “Now speaking of a ‘lack of maturity.’ Did you see how some of the, ah, committee members were smirking, when the people were speaking against this? Did you think that was some sort of ‘Psych-Ops,’ Psychological Operations, to try discourage people to continue on with their comments against/oppose to this?”
A : “ I don’t know if it was…I don’t know if the Representatives and Senators smirking was specifically intended to ‘quash,’ discussion. I…I think probably more than anything was, ah, just them letting out their personal feelings. You know, I mean, they’re heavily dependent on the transportation situation. All members of the transportation committee, Ummm… they all get ‘wined and dined,’ buy Pete Vigue and all the rest of these Lobbyist on a consistent basis. Of course because they’re constantly in bed with these companies. Sergeant, Cianbro, all of them. And so, to me it’s not a surprise. It was just more of a reflection of their own personal attitude. Seeing how that they already have vested interest. They already have specific opinion developed about this bill. And the public hearing, was really just a means to an end, so that they would have the opportunity to vote on this initiative, this, ah, resolution and move forward. I think it…I don’t necessarily think it was intended to stifle the discussion. I don’t think that the discussion mattered in their eyes. So it was just, the smirking was probably reflective of their general contempt for the citizens voice.”
Q : “So, in other words, because of this ‘wining/dining Lobbyist, and no end ‘smooshing,’ that this bill will probably get pass…this emergency pat will get passed. And the state will be out $300,000, once again for an ‘East-West,’ proposed highway?”
A : “Well, traditionally, this type of a ‘boon doggal,’ is what receives exclusive support from the transportation committee and the whole situation. It always seems like it’s exactly what they want. So it would be totally in keeping with ah…it would be totally in keeping with, ah, the traditional behavior of the committee members if that’s what we have here. So I have no reason to believe it wouldn’t pass. Ahmm, exclusively it would be the voice of the citizens, ‘piping up,’ and bringing reality into the discussion. Which I would end up bollixing up the successful works that Mr. Vigue has set up…to…”
Q : “What was that word you said? Valexing?”
A : “’Bollixing up the works.’ You know, the works which Mr. Vigue has set up. I’m sure he’s optimistic about passing this burden onto the tax payer. But of course, you know, really his whole company is based in tax payer profiteering. You know I mean, if Vigue didn’t have public works projects for his company, there’s no way it would be as large as it is today. It’s that simple, so.”
Q : “Now are you surprised, even though his company is not involved with road building, that he’s trying to get investors and back this project up?”
A : “Ah, Vigue…Vigues’ is involved in everything, that involves construction in the State of Maine. So it’s sort of disingenuous form him to claim he’s not involved in some kind of road building. I mean, you know?”
Q : “So, that statement he made about not…”
A : “I think, that, ‘we don’t build roads,’ I mean, I don’t know how that’s possible. They do projects everywhere. They do all kinds of different projects. I mean, that’s what they do, is that they build stuff. So, I…I find it disingenuous for him to claim that they don’t build roads. You know, that’s like…yeah. I mean they build a lot of things, including roads, so. But who knows? That’s…”
Q : “So, do you think this “East-West Highway,’ is going to be going through?”
A : “There’s no way in hell.”
Q : “What do you think is going to stop it?”
A : “Oh, that’s simple. The same thing that’s always stopped this kind of alleged progress: The people of the State of Maine.”
Q : “Well, I mean…I mean years ago, I mean, not to play ‘Devil’s advocate,’ but you know, years ago people were more politically active. But now-a-days, they’re distracted between like, ‘Face book,’ and online games, and the ‘Farmville,’ and everything else. That they seem like little children. And not like even responsible adults trying to take a stand on issues that are important. That’s why, you know, they might be a little hypnotized, to ah, not take a stand. I mean, wouldn’t you agree with that?”
A : “I think usually traditionally in this state, people don’t take stands, because they either A) Don’t know what’s going on, or they don’t believe their voice matters. I think that’s one of the biggest uphill struggles we have right now. As a community in Maine, is we need to change the way that this culture and this community thinks about itself. We have to restore to the citizens of this state, the recognition that their voices, their opinions and their perspective do matter. And are actually critically necessary for a legitimate democracy to function. And, so, where we’re at right now, I think is, the simple fact that Vigue and the rest of the people from, you know, The Department of Transportation, their old school planners. –Like John Melrose and some of the other people, we’ve already defeated on more than on different project before. Melrose was, the prevailer of Sears Island too, and that got kicked down. So you know, you have to remember it’s not like the first time those people have seen some of us, and it’s not that this is the first time we’ve seen some of them. We know what’s starting. They know what’s starting. That’s why I told them, ‘Get ready, you’re going to be in it for the long haul and it’s going to be an endurance. So you better get ready.’ And that’s the point. That’s what happened. We did this with Plum Creek. We did it with Sears Island. Right up against the D.O.T., and we’re do it with this. It just, that this time, instead of it being a small community in one place of the state, well, we’ve probably got a whole swath right across the middle to organize. So, I guess that’s the best chance I’ve had yet, to get Mainers together.”
Q : “So do you think that, like use of the Internet is probably going to work in your favor, because you got more access to more people that’s going to be affected by this?”
A : “I personally don’t use the internet, but I assume at least some of the people here in the coalition will be. Yeah, one would suspect. I think that’s how they got a lot of the word out about the rally today.”
Q : “Right. Well, like, the ah, I got a business card right here, because it was announced in the paper. The ah, the first time I’ve heard about it was the ‘Defending Water for Life.’”
A : “Yeap, yeap.”
Q : “That, I guess, according what I’ve heard from people, was started totally on the Internet and they had a huge amount of people just join their group.”
A : “Well, it’s a big, it’s a big thing. That group has been fighting the privatization of the water sources in the State of Maine for years. And we’ve been fighting the opportunity for companies to come if from Europe, from outside of our country, purchase water bottling plants, which are here in Maine. Which are established Maine companies, and then proceed to take that either bottle or in raw form. Because the simple reality is, people have this illusion that water processing is, ‘everything gets put into a bottle.’ It’s not true. With the way that they move things now in this world, you can pull a Tanker up to the edge of a freaking, you know, a water pipeline. I mean, people think that all the pipelines that get built in the State of Maine are going to be for Oil. People need to get in tune with the fact, that there’s going to be water pipelines, if we let these ‘scum bags,’ succeed. And they ain’t going to be bringing us water. They are going to be taking our water and taking it to places like Europe and other places around the world. Where they haven’t been able to actually be good stewards of their environment. Where they destroyed their natural resource base, or possibly they’re exceeded the population base capacity of their land. And so now, they’re in the process of becoming ‘profiteers,’ and going around the world, and taking things that others need. Like our water. So, that’s when you get down to it, Defending Water for Life, has an organization which develops specifically because of that.”
Q : “ So in other words, hypothetically speaking, if this, ‘East-West Highway,’ cuts a swath through the forest, then they can ‘piggy-back,’ on that and say, ‘Well we don’t have to cut the forest.’”
A : “It’s also a communications and energy corridor. And a resource corridor. Well, water is a resource…in their eyes. It’s that simple.”
Q : “And the gravel too, for the ah, coal plants? (Note to readers: wood pellets for their coal plants. Gravel to repave their roads. See the Jim Freeman interview before the Department of Transportation public hearing.)
A : “And gravel, sure of course. But that they’ll put on the trucks. But the point is it’s the division: communications, energy and resource corridor. And what that means, is they want pipelines with it. You get me?”
Q : “Yup, Yup.”
A : “There we go baby!”
Q : “What do you mean by communications through? I mean, they going to have like telephone lines going through this too?”
A : “You’d have to ask Pete Vigue. He’s the one that keeps claiming communication.”
Q : “I can’t even get Pete Vigue’s as…get pass Pete Vigue’s assistant. Because I missed part one through four of his power point presentation, and I just want to get this record straight.”
A : “That’s…you know it’s tough with Vigue. I can’t get him to stand still long enough to spit in his face. But you know, we’ve all got dreams Doug. So what can you do?” (Laughs.)
Q : “O.K.. Well I know you got to rush. Because you got to meet your friends.”
A : “Thank you very much. I appreciate that.”
E mail from Hillary Lister
> Hi Doug,
>
> LD 879, the bill to lift the ban on commercial dump expansions and
> allow expansion of the Norridgewock Waste Management dump, is going to
> vote on the Floor of the House of Representatives THIS Thursday.
>
> Please contact representatives and media and inform them how this will
> overturn over 20 years of policy, set precedent to open Maine up to
> more commercial dumps and out of state waste, and benefit one company
> at the expense of Maine communities.
>
> Democratic legislators Representative Bob Duschesne of Old Town and
> Senator Seth Goodall (along with Republican
> Chair Saviello) are really pushing this bill, and many Dems who might
> otherwise oppose this bill are looking to them for guidance.
> The mantra of supporters seems to be that, following the recent DEP
> Public Benefit determination for Casella dump expansion, this will
> "Level the Playing Field" and "Prevent Monopoly."
>
> Let them know that two wrongs don't make a right, the Casella
> expansion is being challenged, and rushing approval for this will set
> very bad policy, threatens the Kennebec and Sandy River watersheds,
> and opens Maine up to more out-of-state waste.
>
> Please pass this on to anyone who might be interested.
>
> An info sheet is attached.
>
> Please don't hesitate to contact me with any questions.
>
> - Hillary Lister
> 314-4692
> ---
>
> A more complete history of how LD 879 came to be:
>
>
> A History of LD 879, The Norridgewock Dump, and Out of State Waste
>
> August 15, 1989
> Morning Sentinel reports “Earth Opens, stench rises”
> Norridgewock dump, at the time owned by CWS, collapses under weight of
> out-of-state waste,
> doubles size of dump from 12 to 25 acreas.
> Neighboring farms close down following contamination of streams and groundwater.
>
> The location of the Norridgewock dump is very problematic, being
> located on clay in a river valley surrounded by streams and wetlands.
> The collapse of the dump covered 1400 feet of a tributary and the
> drainageway of Mill stream, leading to the Kennebec River.
>
> The landfill currently contains municipal solid waste, sewage,
> municipal incinerator ash, oil waste, asbestos, pulp and paper sludge,
> metal hydroxide sludge, coal, oil and biomass ash, and biomedical
> waste. Currently, the DEP does not conduct any regular testing at the
> Norridgewock landfill (just random sampling), and relies on Waste
> Management to provide all water quality and other pollution data.
>
> Following this dumpslide, and responding to concerns over increasing
> amounts of out-of-state waste being dumped in Maine, the legislature
> passed a series of changes to Maine's Solid Waste laws in 1989.
>
> The State was told that it couldn't place limits on how much
> out-of-state waste commercial landfills import, due to the Federal
> Interstate Commerce Clause, which considers commercial waste to be an
> item of commerce, and does not allow states to place restrictions on
> trade across state lines.
> Instead, attorneys advised the state to operate landfills itself, and
> then it could restrict trash to only Maine generated waste. This later
> led to the 2003 creation of the state-owned, Casella-operated dump in
> Old Town.
>
> At the same time as the 1989 law changes, a buyer was being sought to
> take over the collapsed CWS dump in Norridgewock. In 1990 the State of
> Maine authorized the sale of the dump to Waste Management Inc, the
> largest waste corporation in the country. Waste Management purchased
> the dump under the agreement that it would not expand beyond the
> permitted footprint at the time, as part of an effort to control out
> of state waste.
>
> Ten years later, Waste Management lobbyists succeeded in introducing
> an amendment to waste legislation, LD 760, to lift the 1989 ban on
> commercial dump expansions, so that the WM dump (and only that dump)
> in Norridgewock could expand. Incidentally, the land they are looking
> to expand onto is owned by the brother-in-law of the manager of the
> dump.
>
> That legislation went through several hearings, a special session was
> even held in the summer at tax payer expense, and legislators
> concluded that expansion was not necessary to meet Maine waste needs,
> it would prioritize landfilling over reduction, reuse, recycling, or
> composting, and would benefit only one company.
>
> The WM expansion came back in the form of its own bill, LD 879, the
> next year. It was again concluded that the expansion was not a wise
> idea.
>
> In February 15, 2012, the Committee on Environment and Natural
> Resources introduced amendments to Waste Management's LD 879. The
> changes provided promises of potential community benefits but did
> nothing to address the problems created by promoting this dump
> expansion. At the hearing, neighbors to the WM dump argued that the
> amendments were being used to hide the real purpose of the bill, the
> dump expansion.
>
> The amended bill passed out of committee that day, with no Public
> Hearing on the new changes, after almost 4 years of being rejected,
> and with many legislators who had opposed it in the past voting in
> favor, with a split vote.
>
> The justification for the change of heart? On January 31st, the DEP
> had given a Public Benefit approval for expansion of the State-owned,
> Casella-operated JRL dump in Old Town. While that dump had originally
> been limited to only Maine generated waste, after getting the
> operating contract, Casella lobbyists succeeded in changing the
> definition of Maine generated waste to include any waste “processed”
> in Maine. As a result, massive amounts of out of state waste have been
> able to be “processed” at incinerators and sorting facilities, with
> some materials removed to be recycled or incinerated, and major
> amounts of waste being sent as “bypass” to the State-owned JRL dump.
>
> As a result, Casella has been able to effectively operate JRL as a
> commercial landfill and import significant amounts of out of state
> waste. Instead of addressing the problem of out-of-state waste being
> defined as Maine waste, legislators decided it would “level the
> playing field” with Casella to grant Waste Management its change in
> the law to allow dump expansion in Norridgewock.
>
> Instead of leveling the playing field, LD 879 would simply open up
> more of Maine to another out-of-state waste corporation.
> The real effect will be to open up two dumps to more out of state
> waste, and not deal with the problem that waste is being landfilled
> that could otherwise be reused, recycled, and composted, and a create
> a profit incentive to import more out of state waste to Maine.
>
> There is a minority report by Rep Walsh-Innes that adopts the new
> language to protect
> communities hosting dumps, without promoting dump expansion.
> That amendment can be viewed at:
> http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/bills/bills_125th/billtexts/HP064603.asp
>
> LD 879 goes to a vote on the floor of the House of Representatives
> this Thursday, March 15, sometime after 10am.
>
> Please contact representatives and media and inform them how this will
> overturn over 20 years of policy, set precedent to open Maine up to
> more commercial dumps and out of state waste, and benefit one company
> at the expense of Maine communities.
Richard C. Roy (Or Sounds like that name on the tape recording.)
Senator Tom Saviello : “Next…(Pause.) Don’t be shy. Because I’ll just move onto work session.”
(Members of the Committee laugh.)
Richard : “Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen…Chairmen Saviello and Mr. Duchesne. I’m Richard C. Roy. I have the advantage of most of you folks. I can see, smell and hear the brush roads and landfill from my back porch; and I’ve been opposed to it since the beginning, in 1975. I remain that way. If you can appreciate that. I have (Long Pause.) revisions, and to these revisions I have apprehensions. If this is going to continue to allow Waste Management…If these amendments are going to allow Waste Management, to expand, beyond the footprint that it…that was present in 1989, it, it should not happen. Waste Manager came her in order to correct the collapse of the C.W.S. Landfill. They have done that. To what advantage to everyone remains to be seen. Now,…(Long Pause.) If you cannot understand what the impact, in over 30 years of Landfill activity; is to us, who are adjacent to it…(Pause.) then you can’t understand what it means…(Pause.) to be ‘sucker punched.’ If you ever have been. I don’t know what. Believe me, if you can’t conduct the State’s business, without ‘sucker punching,’ a pair of 80 year old…80 year olds, as my folks were…(pause.) then you don’t understand anything.”
Senator Tom Saviello : “You, you have some suggested amendments, that you, or are you basically saying, your against any future expansions?”
Richard : “I’m saying: ‘If these amendments, (taps podium twice.) allow Waste Management to continue expanding, beyond the 1989 footprint, then it should not be allowed.”
Senator Tom Saviello : “O.K.. That’s what I need to clarify. Do you have any questions?”
Richard : (Cutting in just in time.) “The one other…”
Senator Tom Saviello : “O.K., good.”
Richard : “One other little. Years ago I worked for a contractor out of Bingham. If your familiar with the area. He lived on the Goodridge road, and his wife had lived there; and their family had lived there since, ‘The Exodus,’ I guess. But at any rate…the fellow I worked for died; and I went to visit the lady. I introduced myself she did hardly remember me, as a member of ‘Harrys’ crew.’ But nevertheless, had a little conversation. (Pause.) I told her that my father had worked, on Construction of Wyman Dam. Here’s this lady, past 90 years old. I mentioned the Dam. (Pause.) the fire in her eyes, after 80 years, told me, that resentment cannot die.”
Senator Tom Saviello : “Questions? Wait a minute. O.K…. Representative Ayotte. Wait, wait, wait sir. Excuse me, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait…”
Doug Papa : (Sitting next to podium and microphone.) “He’s got a question for you.”
Senator Tom Saviello : “We got a question. Representative Ayotte has a question for you. Go right back up to the ‘Mic,’ open.”
Richard : “Yeah?”
Representative Ayotte : “Good Lord, I’ve been through a lot of cross roads in my life, but I’ve never been to that one. Can you give us some examples, of what you’re getting at? It’s been a little Nebulas for me.”
Richard : “Well, I’ve been telling it for 30 years; to these various Boards and Panels.”
Representative Ayotte : “Well could you tell…”
Richard : “O.K..”
Representative Ayotte : “…me?”
Richard : “I will. (Shuffles papers near microphone.) In 1984, on investigation of the groundwater beneath the landfill.” (Note to readers: it sounds like he said something like: “Cross Woods, Landfill.” Possible name before Waste Management took it over.) “They discovered, or suspected, a hydraulic connection; between the groundwater beneath the landfill and our farm. We did not know, e were not notified for three years that the possibility, (Pause.) of that. They had no proof. Just a suspicion: That our well was interfering with their tests procedures.”
Representative Ayotte : “Then their well was interfering with your well. They’re leaching within the…”
Richard : “No. Our well was influencing their testing.”
Representative Ayotte : “O.K., what else?”
Senator Tom Saviello : (Clears throat.) “Let me remind you guys, that we’re dealing with is the amendment.”
Richard : “O.K..”
Senator Tom Saviello : “Not, not, the history of the landfill.”
Richard : “He asked the questions.”
Senator Tom Saviello : I know. You, you’re doing fine, but I’m just reminding Representative Ayotte, that we’re dealing with amendments. So the question around the amendment…”
Representative Ayotte: “O.K.. Well, I figured you’re frustrated, I just want to know why you’re frustrating. That’s, that’s O.K..”
Richard : “After 30 years of dealing with the thing, you, you might be able to understand. I don’t know. (Long pause.) Any other questions?”
Senator Tom Saviello : “Thank you very much.”
Richard : “O.K..”
Senator Tom Saviello : “Anybody else who would like to comment?”
Unidentified Woman
Unidentified Woman : “Thank you Mr. Chairman, Vice Chairman, members of this Committee, for the opportunity to speak to you today. Regarding the amendments to. (Clears throat.) that were produced regarding supposedly L.D. 879. 23 years have gone by, since the 1989 law was passed. Nothing has been done. Other than bring forth the L.D. 879, to allow one corporation to expand. And then, the smoke screen comes, with the amendments. I’m not saying the amendments are bad. There are some good things in there. But, to use them as a smokescreen, and to be devious; in order to get L.D. 879 passed, is (Slaps the table.) wrong. This committee needs to look at the issue of the solid waste problem, and they need to do something about it. And not use the lowest thing on the Higher Archy list, and hide behind these amendments. I can spend here at almost every meeting…I don’t have to walk into any meeting in this Statehouse and start to introduce myself, but people say: ‘Oh! We know who you are!’ Yes, because I’ve been here, and I’ve been here, and I’ve told my story over and over again. I don’t want sympathy. I just want you people to be, (Hits table this time.) upfront, and (Note to readers: increased volume indicates she leaned forward to look the Committee in the eyes. Then the sound of both hands resting at the table at same time.) to be honest. And, (Finger hitting table.) not (Again with the finger.) to use these amendments. Which again, I’m not saying, ‘are not good,’ because there are some good things in here. But, do not use them be ( Note to readers: Next word sounds like it is pronounced: Gavy-ant.) to get the 19…the 8 mile, L.D. 879 passed. You should not be passing it for person…One corporation.
The other thing I would like to see, if you asked at that point, is: ‘Where, are those of us…’ I’m not talking every abutter. But, I’ve asked over and over and over again, that, ‘those of us who live with this 24/7 who had it imposed upon us, let’s put an amendment in there that we are taken care of.’ That we are compensated, such as the state and such as the town. You people can pass this bill tonight, and go home and forget about it. The only thing you do is, you go home, take your garbage, you put it out and it comes to Norridgewock. Those of us who live with it, my husband and I, every piece of our property abuts it’s facility, if this is passed. We lived on the premise for…ever…for since 1989, this would not happen. But, please, my point is, do not use these amendments, which anybody could tell you, by looking at them…And I look around this room and see people who are far more educated than I am. But, to look at these amendments they’re totally a separate bill, from 1989. Make it such and pass them, and do what you want to, with L.D. 879. But, please if you’re going to put amendments on, take into consideration, those who are affected the most. Thank you.”
Senator Tom Saviello : “Questions if any? Thank you very much. Next.”
Kevin Roche
Kevin Roche:
“Senator Saviello, Representative Hamper and distinguished members, Ahhh… of this fine committee. I come before you today to address, Ahhhmmm…and thank you for the opportunity to, Ah…address the proposed amendment to the public benefit determination statue as part of L.D. 879. And I do support mister Lounders amendment to that admendment.
Ahhhmmm…my name is Kevin Roche and I’m the General Manager of Eco-Maine. If…if you’re not familiar with Eco-Maine, we are a quazi municipal, non-for-profit organization. Ah, most of our facilities are located in Portland. Ummm…we have three facilities, ah…a waste to energy plant. Ah, a single sort recycling plant and a, ahhh…Ummm…a, an ash landfill. Ummm…we…we landfill both trash and ash, at our landfill. However all of thee, Ahhh…raw and (Note to readers: “astebu,” is what the next word sounds like.) that we take to our landfill, we remove, bring it back to the waste energy facility and…and process it, Ahhhmmm, so that, ah, no waste is no raw waste is left in the landfill. We have 72 full time employees and we have a budget of about 25 million dollars. Last year I testified on L.D. 879, or as I said then, I continued to be very concerned about our expansion of landfills. Ummm…the landfill in…the…theee…Ummm…thee…the problem with landfills isn’t that it’s a storage strategy for managing waste. And I don’t think any of us want to see Ummm… Ah… more and more waste, Ahhh… stored in…in our… in our state. If we continue to expand our landfills, we will degredate the importance of the waste hierarchy. And Ummm… the state of Maine has…has a good hierarchy in place. And that hierarchy is the same hierarchy that thee E.P.A. has adopted. It is also the same hierarchy that many other states have adopted and the reason why everyone has adopted the same hierarchy is because it’s working. And guess what’s at the bottom…very bottom…of that hierarchy. And guess what we’re spending so much time on, is expanding landfills in the state of Maine and that really disturbs me, and I think it disturbs me, and I think it disturbs many of us.
There is a place for landfills. We own and we operate a landfill. But only waste that is necessary, that can’t be composted, that can’t be combusted should end up in a landfill; stored in a landfill in the state of Maine. If we continue to expand the landfills in our state we will start to degredate our recycling efforts that we’ve worked so hard to improve over the last 20 years. In…in…in our communities, last year, we recycled 36,000 tons of materials; that were taken out of the waste stream and put into the recycling stream. If we continue to expand our landfills we will degredate the initial investments that were beginning to see made in composting. All across the country, many states are looking at pulling waste out of…pulling certain organic waste out of the waste stream and composting it or deriving energy from it, (Pause) As opposed to landfilling it.
If we continue to expand our landfills we will draw waste away from our waste to energy facilities. We have 4 waste to energy facilities in the state of Maine. The state of Maine has made a huge investment in waste to energy, and rightly so. The state of Maryland, recently put waste to energy as a Top tier renewable. Just as high as, Uhhh…as,,, as wind as…as some of the more fancy, Ummm…renewables that are out there today. We will also, if we continue to expand our landfills and this is probably most important and dear to most of us: invite the importation of waste into our state. And I know that there are ways to control that. But, if you contin…if we have the capacity, I assure you, the waste will come. It will find its way into our landfills. If it’s there it’ll…it will find its way there. And I don’t think any of us want to increase the amount of waste coming into the state of Maine.
I saw this when I was, Ah, in New York. I saw this in Pennsylvania, where the states that were boarding there high populated areas, became the dumping grounds (short pause) for those densely populated areas. And I don’t think any of us would want to…to see that here in the state of Maine. It was funny, when I came in today, there was a number of us in the industry that began to assemble outside, Ummm… the doors here…O.K.? We all started talking about: ‘Hey do you have any extra waste?’ I asked my good friend, ‘Do you have any extra waste? We’re out.’ I asked my other good friend: We’re…we’re going to be short this month. O.K.? Everybody is desperate for waste, particularly this time of year. There isn’t a shortage…alright? This is a shortage of waste out there. We all at the waste/Energy pla…plants we… I have a designated amount of…of material that we need to process each and every year. For…for Eco-Maine it’s a 170,000 tones. Ummm…Greg’s is…mentioned at 10 percent reduction in…in their waste stream. WE have seen 25 percent reduction over the last 5 years, in our waste stream, from our own communities. Now some of that is good recycling habits, Ahhmmm… but most of it really is the recession. Ahhhmmm…and…and so, we have to replace that waste; and how are we replacing it? We’re reaching out to other communities, because we’re still operating it at full capacity. But, we have to reach out to other communities to draw their waste into our facility. Help regionli… grow our region and our approach to solid waste management. And that’s working so far.
But we admit, there’s no way, that we can compete ton for ton, with landfills. Because if our member communities came to me and said: ‘Hey look, we want to reduce our rates. How could we do it tomorrow?’
The first thing I’d probably say is, ‘shut down the waste energy facility and start landfilling our landfill.’
Of course they’re not going to do that, because we are one of the few communities, our size, that has a landfill, that’s still within two and a half miles, from the most densely pop…populated area of our state. The only reason why we still have that landfill is simply because we’ve conserved that space, we’ve employed our waste to energy facility and we get a 90 percent reduction in our waste mass. There’s … there’s no organic’s in our waste. There’s no material in our…in our…in our… in our…Ummm… in our landfill, Ummm… that hasn’t been processed or least…or at the very least, we’ve made a good push for recycling. And I would hate to see that go the other direction, and also future liabilities. The good thing about waste to energy facilities is that it stabilizes the waste today, to make it suitable for landfilling. Landfilling raw waste becomes a liability. Why? Because everything’s still alive, it’s all still there, it doesn’t go away. And I’ve mentioned at this committee before, we’ve done some studies, where we’ve gone back 20 years and dug up their waste and I can still see, Ahhh…the newspaper…I can still read the newspapers. I can still or…Ummm…I can still identify leaves and grass clippings, because it’s been so well prepared…Uhhh…preserved in a…in a solid waste landfill. So, what we’re doing, is we’re doing, is we’re preserving our waste, for … for our future generations. Again, we have to have landfills; but let’s make sure we save that space for someday in the future. I appreciate the administration’s decision to amend the public benefit determination statue; however I do not think their proposal goes far enough and I strongly support the amendment that was offered by Mr. Lounder. Again, I don’t agree with the landfill expansion, but in this day and in our age, I think we have to come to some level of compromise; and that’s where I am today.
Mr. Lounders’ amendment, I think will … will provide the goals, Ahhh… will … will … will … support the goals that were set out some years ago, to preserve the waste hierarchy. However though, the waste hierarchy has for … for, far too long been sitting on a shelf collecting dust, and we need to advance it. And what this amendment will advance the waste hierarchy and be sure that any expansion only takes place after careful review, and no other alternative is available to our, our, Ummm…our…our communities in the State of Mane. And that’s what’s so important, because we need to look at reduce, re-use, recycle. We need to look at composting recycle…Ah…composting waste to energy, before we consider landfilling. And I just wish that we could be talking about composting facilities and expanding our recycling facilities here in this committee before we start talking about the last rung of the hierarchy. And that’s thee expansion of our landfills. If you know of anybody who has some extra waste, we would be glad to take it. As on public record we … we are not full and I think many of the other waste to energy facilities would state … would … would … would … ahhh … support me on … on that message thank you and I’ll be happy to answer any questions you may have.”
Note to readers:
Bob Duchesne is heard crumping up a piece of paper.
Bob Duchesne :
“You can have this.”
(Mild laugher is heard in room.)
Senator Tom Saviello:
“That’s recyclable.”
Kevin Roache:
“We got that too.”
Bob Duchesne:
“Part of the issue I’m always grappling with is geographic. Ummm … the waste energy facilities are all, ( Note to readers: Next words were either: ‘are truly,’ or ‘Quad truly.’ It picks up at : ) near the population of Southern Maine and all to that area. Western Maine is a little distant and has the extra trucking costs. If crossroads were a waste energy facility, I’m not sure if we’d be having the same discussion, but it’s a landfill. How would you, sitting in our position, view that geographic challenge in the western (Note to readers: inaudible word her. It picks up at : ) things?”
Kevin Roache:
“there’s Massachusetts waste that’s going up to (Quick light chuckle here.) you know, oh, far north into…into the state of Maine. Ummm… transportation is…is obviously something that we don’t like to see and … and in fact usually landfills are now located … they’re regional landfills are now located … they’re regional landfills and they’re located in faraway places. That’s only going to increase the truck traffic to, ahhh … On our highways, of … of … of hauling solid waste. Ummm … but, Ummm… I don’t think the waste to energy facilities are that far away from those generation points that… that couldn’t be satisfied. Because, I’m seeing waste being transported
from Boston Massachusetts, ahhhmmm…almost to Rochester New York, Ahhhmmm…that’s a long way to haul trash and Ummm…And right now with…with Diesel prices the way they are, Ummm…that’s… that’s only going to become more and more challenging.
Ahhhmmm…One of the things that we’re very fortunate, you’re right, is that we have a home for our waste right in our community. We process all of the materials right in our communities, so we have that benefit. However, we’re seeing, as we are being to regionalize, and we have more capacity available, we’re seeing more and more communities show some interest in our long term contracts that’s …that are available, Ummm…Simply because we have the capacity. Both due to the recession and both due to thee, ahhhmmm…thee…thee…positive recycling programs that our communities are offering.
Note to readers :
inaudible comments from committee members here. It picks up here.
Senator
Tom Saviello : “Senator Goodall.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“Thank you Mr. Chairman. Ah, What’s, Ah… your price per ton, right now, average for ‘S.W.’?”
Kevin Roach :
“Ahhh…Our communities, Ahhh… we have different rates for different, ahhmmm…different communities, simply because, whether it’s long term – short term; but I…our…our member communities right now pay $88 a ton plus an assessment. Ahhmmm…spot right now is…is about $40 a ton.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“What’s the assessment?”
Kevin Roach :
“On…thee…thee… assessment equals, ahhh…right now it’s four million…I’m sorry, Ah…yeah, four million dollars a year. Mostly that’s due to, Ummm…debt service. I will tell you that, you know, our debt service is…is on thee decline. Our communities decided to take an aggressive… Ah, take an aggressive schedule on our debt service. Last year we paid 11 million. This year we’re paying 7 million. Next year 4 million and the year after 300,000.
Senator Seth Goodall :
“So what happens…What’s the price per ton? Ummm…right now when you calculate the assessment at Juniper Ridge?”
Kevin Roach :
“Ummm…it…if…if…if… you ….if you divide it by the tons, you probably working at about $75 a ton.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“So you’re at about $155 a ton.”
Kevin Roach :
“If…If you added both together.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“But, that’s going to ‘sunset,’ when you said in a few years.”
Kevin Roach :
“That’s going to ‘sunset,’ our communities decided to take, you know, a ‘fast road,’ on…in…on debt.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“I’m not second guessing…”
Kevin Roach :
“Yeap.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“…any of your communities.”
Kevin Roach
: “Yup.”
Note to readers:
Both Senator Seth Goodall and Kevin Roach are talking at the same time, obscuring the conversation until it picks up here:
Kevin Roach :
“I don’t, just…I’m defending why it’s high right now and it’s high because they wanted relief on the back end.”
Senator Seth
Goodall : “Yup…you know, it’s going to help you get there.”
Kevin Roach :
“O.K..”
(Laughter
from someone else.)
Senator Seth Goodall :
“So, my point is…is that, so, in a few years…your community made a decision to be aggressive about paying capitalization cost for your facility and in those few years ahead, once those capitalization costs and financing is paid for, and you going to be at approximately $88 a ton… In that neighborhood?”
Kevin Roach :
“Ahhmmm…we…we will…we still feel that we’re and going to, ahhmmm…probably have to… have some level of an assessment. Simply because the plant is now 23 old…23 years old and we’re going to have to make some improvements to it. Ahhhmmm…we have been making improvements all along. It’s a good shape. Ahhhmmm…but, Ummm…we feel that the plant has a long life ahead of it and Ummm…we will continue to make those improvements; But we’ve got some big ones coming up.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“So…I guess my question would…now is , at what cost (short pause) should we, Ummm… in essence, protect through the public benefit determination, Ahhhmmm… waste to energy facilities; because we…we’ve heard comments earlier that the tonnage is approximately on the market at $50. So, Ah, at what…what point, is the breaking point…”
Kevin Roach :
“Right.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“…for the customer?”
Kevin Roach :
“And you have to realize that, Ummm…you can’t clearly establish that here, because own and operate a waste energy plant, a landfill and a recycling plant. And…and those…those costs reflect all three facilities. Some of all the other waste energy facilities only have a waste energy plant and they don’t have the other facilities, Ah, to help support it.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“That’s a general question for all waste to energy facilities…”
Kevin Roach :
“Yeap.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“…I mean, in the State of Maine.”
Kevin Roach :
“Right. Ahhmmm… So, I can only, I… you know, right now I’m only prepared to answer for ourselves and…and…and…we hope to get closer to the $88 a ton. That’s… that’s kinda where we’re shooting for. Ahhhmmm… with the recognition that, Ummm… we want to move into a … a aggressive, ah, composting, ahhh… system. Where we would…we would remove all the organic’s including…including food waste and, Ummm…collect that separately and not combust it.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“Well, to question your argument based on ‘M.S.W.’ as it relates to the expansion, or potential expansion at Norridgewock …correct?”
Kevin Roach :
“Ah, could you repeat that?”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“Your concern, is as it relates to ‘M.S.W., (short pause) in reguards to a potential expansion, at Norridgewock. Could he…talking about recycling…”
Note to readers:
Rest was cut off due to Kevin interrupting.)
Kevin Roach :
“Yes! I…I can’t… we can’t compete with putting trash in the ground. (short pause) We can’t. That’s…that’s a known ent… you know, there’s 88 plants across the country… waste energy plants across the country. Ahhhmmm… and we all recognize that, wwe…our communities made this invest…investment; but we recognize we can’t… the cheapest way to do it is put it in the ground and let our…and let our, errr…children deal with it, someday in the future. And… and, you know, our… our liner systems are going to be there for us, but they’re not, going to be there forever.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“Well, I… I would definitely disagree with you there. I was just trying to horn in on specific tactical issues here that we’ve had 2 or 3 years on some of these debates. And my concern is, is that, Ummm…potentially we have impacted the, marketplace so much by our own actions around this horse shoe, that we’re trying to strike the right balance. And some of us, Ahhh… giving Norridgewock the opportunity (Note to readers: next one or two words were spoken too soft for the recording. It picks up at:) In the future, they, Ummm… (Note to readers next few words are inaudible) position.
So, if we’re going to do that, you’re saying that we need to have public benefit determination as quote “an amendment,” in line.”
Kevin Roach :
“Thee amendment to thee amendment. Yes.”
Senator
Seth Goodall : “As well, as Mr. Lounders would.”
Kevin Roach :
“Yes…errr…yes…I’m referencing…my support….”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“O.K..”
Kevin Roach :
“…is for Mr. Lounders admendment.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“So, under thee proposed amendment by the Department. (short pause) you feel that, their language addressing local and regional leads and other capacity issues, doesn’t protect Waste Management facilities.”
Kevin Roach :
“Look, we’ve done nothing with the waste hierarchy. If that’s any example. Ummm… yeah, that’s my concern. Because the waste hierarchy was put in place for a purpose and it… we all talk about it, every year, come and talk about the waste hierarchy. And we…we…we haven’t advanced it. We haven’t done much about the recycling rates. Ahhhmmm…And so the waste hierarchy has no teeth. And Ummm… And so, yeah, that…I think that is a real concern, Ahhmmm… that ah, you know, that amendment does… does not go far enough, Ahhhmmm… to control, Ahhmmm… what we’re going to store, Ahhh…as waste in our state.”
Representative James Hamper :
“And Representative Long.”
Representative Ricky Long:
“I see a lot of competition storing all the waste that’s out there; but, I’m really confused. In order to make your process successful, You’re reaching outside of your normal communities to gather waste. Except you’re supporting Mr. Lounders amendment, which basically would prohibit that now is it fair for your, ah, facility to be able to reach out and draw waste, in order to store it in communities, where another facility cannot? It just doesn’t seem right. I don’t see how you can, do what you’re doing, and support an amendment at the same time.”
Kevin Roach :
“Right, Ummm…it really is for me it’s compromise. Ahhhmmm… but, you know, I…I feel that, you know, I…I guess there…there’s…there…we’ve already seen one expansion approved. Ahhmmmm… my understanding is that, this expansion may very well be approved. Ahhmmm… I guess, I was… I was looking for ways, ah, to compromise. And your right, you know, in order for us to survive, over the last few years, we have had to reach outside of our service area. And…and that has… has only… that was the only reason we had been able to and keep our facility running at capacity.”
Representative Ricky Long :
“Would you expect to advance outside of your area (note to readers: Next words are inaudible, until it picks up at : ) Mr. Lounders?”
Kevin Roach :
“We compete now. (Long Pause) all… all of the waste energy facilities com… compete for the same waste now.”
Cindy Sullivan
Doug Papa : “Alright, this is Doug Papa. The date is January 31st. I’m at the Maine Ethics Commission, on, ah, the rotary here in Augusta Maine. And what’s your name again Ma’am?”
Cindy : “Cindy.”
Q : “Cindy?”
Cindy : “Sullivan.”
Q : “Sullivan. I’m speaking to Cindy Sullivan. And Cindy, could you just please repeat, ah, what you just told me about that phone call Patricia Aho made?”
Cindy : “Ah, she did call me, when she was appointed to find out how to step down from being a lobbyist. And we had to work, because it’s never been done before, to figure out how to change it over, to a different principal lobbyist. Because the clients hired their firm, not the particular lobbyist that was assigned to it.”
Q : “O.K., and what’s this information our readers can find online?”
Cindy : “All the Lobbyist registrations are online. There are Maine . gov /ethics.-The website.”
Q : “O.K., so if they want to look up Patricia Aho, when she registered, ah, you said it was December 2010, because that’s when the year begins.”
Cindy : “Right. The registration will be in there.”
Q : “O.K., and she stopped in, ah, you said March of 2011.”
Cindy : “That’s when we officially switched her over. Because we were working on how to actually, do that. But, she had called, earlier than that.”
Q : “O.K., and are you aware, are you aware she was suppose to acusalate herself, if she has a conflict of interest. IF she sat in any hearings, ah, that was related to…”
Cindy : “That has nothing to do with us.”
Q : “O.K.. So, ah, I probably have to go to the, ah, ‘Overseers of the Bar,’ or something like that?”
Cindy : “Ummm…I don’t know where you’d go; but that is not our…”
Q : “It doesn’t have anything to do with Ethics?”
Cindy : “Not that particular type. We oversee the registrations and the reporting.”
Q : “Oh, of the Lobbyist, not of the people that work in government.”
Cindy : “MM-Hun.”
Q : “Is that a ‘yes,’?
Cindy : “Yes!”
Q : “ O.K.. Well, O.K.. Thank you very much and have a great day.”
Dual interview with Mike Belliveau –Executive Director Environmental Health Strategy Center” and Tracy Gregoire – Maine Healthy Children’s Project.
Q : “The reason why you’re here is the B.P.A. that’s going into the childrens’ food and so forth. Is that correct?”
Mike : “yeah. There’s a toxic chemical known as B.P.A.. Which, ah, disrupts hormones in our bodies, and disposes a baby latter in life to develop breast cancer or prostate cancer. It can also trigger learning disabilities. And this chemical, ah, everyone knew about it in, ah, plastic baby bottles and the manufactures got it out of the baby bottles, and sippy cups. But now our lab tests reveal that B.P.A. use is widespread, in baby food jars and canned foods, And that is a significant source of B.P.A.. We’re saying: ‘It’s time to get B.P.A. out of the food supply completely.”
Q : “So, is it, pretty much, that they use it because it’s cheaper for them to use, and they’re to cut corners, or are they using it because they have to use it?””
Mike : “Well, ah, ah, when canned foods and, and, jar lids came into being, ah, they coated the metal. So that wouldn’t impair a metal taste to the food, and for 50 years, they’ve been using this epoxy resin, that’s full of B.P.A.. And so the science has caught up and said that: ‘No, this poses a serious health risk. You need to develop and switch to safer alternatives.”
Q : “Do you have anything to add to that?”
Tracy : “Yeah, and there are safer alternatives, Ummm…available and some of the companies are willingly getting B.P.A. out of their products. So, we know it’s possible to do. I represent a lot of Mom’s with kids with learning and developmental disabilities. You know, my son was able to talk in full sentences at 18 months. But a lot of Mom’s I work with, they may have an artistic child that can’t speak to them or tell them their basic needs. And they’re asking me: ‘How do I protect my child from toxic chemicals?’ And the truth is, most chemicals are never tested for health and safety. And even ones, like B.P.A., that have been extensively tested, and are shown to be of the ‘worst of the worst,’ chemicals are still being used in products. So, Maine families demand that these chemicals are taken out of the products, so we can protect their children. And we can also lower health care costs, and, and protect all the kids and all the families in the state of Maine. So it’s…it doesn’t make any sense to continue using B.P.A., when there are safer affordable alternatives out there. So, we’re asking companies to get this product, this chemical out of their product. And, you know, when we can’t do that, Ummm…by talking to them, it’s time that we pass laws that protect our children.”
Q : “Now, how do you folks feel about the Governors’ response, when he said, ah…when he was asked about B.P.A.?”
Mike : “Well, last year, ah, about a year ago, the Governor, ah, you know, insulted Maine women and ridiculed childrens protection; when he called the worst caste of B.P.A. exposure of being a case of little beards growing on women. It was, ah, displaying his scientific ignorance and callous regard for childrens health. Fortunately the Legislature stood up to the Governor. They upheld the B.P.A. rule, to phase out the chemical in sippy cups, and baby bottles by an overwhelming margin. And now, we’re, ah, you know, our test have revealed that, B.P.A. is widespread in baby food and canned food. So that’s the next step, to get it out of that supply. And, ah, a couple of companies are being responsive. Gerber’s and Earth’s Best are transitioning away from B.P.A.. But two companies are in violation of Maine’s ‘Kid-Safe Products Act.’ Beech-Nut and Wild Harvest have failed to report their use of B.P.A., as required by the law and have made no public commitments to stop using this dangerous chemical.”
Q : “And how do you feel about that?”
Tracy : “Maine families want B.P.A. out of our food.”
Q : “Well, I meant about the Governors’ response.”
Tracy : “Yeah. Ah, we want the Governor to base things on science. And the science overwhelmingly shows that B.P.A. is a toxic hormone disrupting chemical, that needs to be taken out of food.”
Q : “And, ah, how, ah, Beech-Nut and you said Wild nut is that is that correct? O.K., Now again those companies aren’t complying. How much resistance have you found?”
Mike : “I’m sorry. The question again was?”
Q : “How much resistance have you found with Beech-Nut and that Harvest, to comply Maine State law, have you gotten?”
Mike : “Well, ah, Beech-Nut has been totally evasive so far. They have submitted documents to the State that ‘Duck and Weave,’ and, ah, deny the fact. Which is, ah, B.P.A. is in their baby food. So, ah, you know, I find their response to be dishonest and evasive. Ummm…Wild Harvest, which is sold by Shaw’s, and the parent company of Shaw’s. They’ve just not reported it at all. They’ve just…They’ve just…(pause.) You know, here’s a Mega food giant, Ummm…ignoring state law. And so, ah, it’s time for them, Ummm…really the Wild Harvest and Beech-Nut baby food products should be taken off the shelves in Maine groceries until those companies pledge to eliminate B.P.A.. They’re selling products in violation of Maine Law right now.
(Reprint of papers handed out during the BPA Statehouse Protest.)
Protect Your Family’s Health:
Join the Maine Campaign for BPA-Free Food
To protect the healthy development of babies and children, we must end exposure to BPA in our food supply. Our campaign will:
1. Celebrate the success of ending use of BPA in plastic baby bottles, sippy cups, and infant formula cans;
2. Ask Maine state agencies to phrase out BPA in baby food and toddler food containers under the Kid Safe Products Act; and
3. Ask all candidates running for the Maine Legislature in 2012 to support closing a loophole that allows BPA use in most canned foods.
Learning disabilities, prostate cancer, breast cancer. These are just a few of the concerns with BPA (also known as bisphenol A), a widely used, man-made chemical that wreaks hormone havoc early in life.(1) Over five billion pounds of BPA are produced every year by Dow Chemical, Bayer, Sunoco and other toxic chemical makers.(2)
Concern about the health threats of BPA has grown ever since BPA was discovered polluting the bodies of 93% of all Americans.(3) Most people are exposed to BPA by eating canned foods.(4) BPA leaks out of the can linings, contaminating the food or beverage inside. Metal lids on glass jars also leach BPA into our food.
BPA exposure could be slashed by two-thirds if food packaging were BPA free.(5)
Let’s follow the pathway to health that gets BPA out of our food supply!
2010 Baby Bottles & Sippy Cups. BPA use ended after moms demanded safety and nine states banned it. In 2011, Governor LePage tried to repeal Maine’s BPA ban, saying that all women had to worry about was “little beards.” Maine lawmakers upheld the ban by a 145-3 vote!
2011 Infant Formula. Manufactures switched to BPA-free containers in response to concerned mothers. Health scientists, Congress and state regulation. Maine required BPA use reporting, which confirmed complete success!
2012 Baby Food. Maine agencies must now end the use of BPA in baby food jar lids. Gerber eliminated BPA and Earth’s Best pledged to be BPA-free by October 2012. But laggards like Beech-Nut and Shaw’s Wild Harvest violated Maine law by failing to report their continued BPA use!
2013 Toddler Food. Maine agencies must stop the use of BPA in canned foods that are marketed to preschoolers. The food giant Campbell’s, for example, uses Dora the Explorer to sell canned foods containing BPA to young kids!
2014 All Foods. The Maine Legislature must close the loophole that allows BPA use in most canned foods. When pregnant women eat canned foods, their babies are exposed. Everybody deserves BPA-free food!
Help Get BPA Out of Our Food Supply!
What You Can Do
1. Collect signatures for a voter-initiated rulemaking to force the LePage Administration to end BPA use in baby food and toddler food.
2. Write a letter to the editor.
3. Testify at the public hearing (this summer).
4. Ask your candidates for State Representative and Senator to support legislation to end all use of BPA in the food supply.
5. Share this with your friends.
BPA and the Kid Safe Products Act.
In 2008, the Maine Legislature passed a landmark law to ensure that the products we purchase and use are free from toxic chemicals. The Kid Safe Products Act requires manufacturers to tell us what priority chemicals of high concern are in their products. The State can require safer substitutes when they’re available and affordable.
In 2010, BPA was named the first priority chemical under the Kid Safe Products Act. By October 2011, mandatory reporting revealed that 8 toy makers use BPA in plastic parts (including many PlayMobil figures and Chicco rattles). Infant formula companies confirm their successful phase-out of BPA. Most baby food manufacturers reported BPA use late or not at all, in violation of Maine law. (See http://www.preventharm.org/Content/491.php for more info).
The ban on BPA use in plastic baby bottles, sippy cups and reusable food and beverage containers took formal effect on January 2012.
Sources
1. Rationale for Concurrence by Maine Center for Disease Control and Prevention on the Designation of Bisphenol A as a Priority Chemical (April 23, 2010); National Toxicology Program – Center for the Evaluation of Risks to Human Reproduction, NTP-CERHR Monograph on the Potential Human Reproductive and Developmental Effects of Bisphenol A (Sept. 2008).
2. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Chemical Information: Bisphenol A, http://www.cdc.gov/exposurereport/data_tables/BisphenolA_ChemicalInformation.html; U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, TSCA Inventory Use Reports (2006, updated).
3. Calafat AM, Ye X, Wong L-Y, Reidy JA, Needham LL (2008). Exposure of the U.S. Population to Bisphenol A and 4-tertiary-Octylphenol: 2003-2004. Environmental Health Perspectives. 116(1): 39-44.
4. Schecter A, Malik N, Haffner D, Smith S, Harrid TR, Paepke O & Birnbaum L (2010). Bisphenol A (BPA) in U.S. Food. Environmental Science & Technology. 44(24):9425-9430.
5. Rudel RA, Gray JM, Engel CL, Rawsthorne TW, Dodson RE, Ackerman AM, Rizzo J, Nudelman J & Brody JG (2011). Food Packaging and Bisphenol A and Bis(2-Ethylhexyl) Phthalate Exposure: Findings from a Dietary Intervention. Environmental Health Perspectives. 119(7):914-920.
CONSUMER TIPS:
How can I protect my family from BPA?
GET involved in the Maine Campaign for BPA-Free Food!
LOOK for the words “BPA-free” on labels of food containers.
SELECT locally grown fresh and frozen foods, rather than canned or jarred foods, when practical.
AVOID products made from polycarbonate plastic, sometimes labeled ‘PC’, when practical.
MINIMIZE handling of cash register receipts (many use BPA for thermal printing).
REDUCE use or contact with epoxy resins (most are made with BPA)”
Maine’s BPA-Free Foods Campaign is a project of the
Alliance for a Clean & Healthy Maine
A collaboration of
Environmental Health Strategy Center
Environment Maine”
Learning Disabilities Association of Maine
Maine Labor Group on Health
Maine Council of Churches
Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association
Maine People’s Resource Center
Maine Women’s Policy Center
Natural Resources Council of Maine
Physicians for Social Responsibility/ Maine Chapter
Planned Parenthood of Northern New England”
Toxics Action Center
*Second News package Paper
Alliance for a Clean and Healthy Maine
Environmental Health Strategy Center * Learning Disabilities Association of Maine – Healthy Children’s Project * Maine Council of Churches * Maine Labor Group on Health * Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association * Maine People’s Alliance * Maine Women’s Policy Center * Natural Resources Council of Maine * Physicians for Social Responsibility-Maine Chapter * Planned Parenthood of Northern New England * Toxixs Action Center Campaigns
www.cleanandhealthyme.org
PRESS RELEASE
MMD Mainely Moms & Dads
www.mainelymomsdads.com
For Immediate Release: February 14, 2012
Contact Carol Kelly (207) 210-0789
New Test Results Reveal BPA in Baby Food, Canned Foods
Maine Moms Petition State to Ban Toxic BPA from Food Supply
Call for Enforcement on Baby Food makers Violating BPA Reporting
(Augusta) Bisphenol-A was found in all but one of the containers of baby and toddler food tested in a new study released today by the Alliance for a Clean and Healthy Maine. Parents and grandparents rallied at the State House and called for action to get BPA out of the food supply. Concern about BPA as a toxic threat to children’s health has been growing in recent years as it has been linked to cancer, obesity, learning disabilities, male infertility, and early puberty in girls.
“Would any parent knowingly feed our child meals containing BPA? Of course not,” stated Megan rice, a mother of town from the town of China and spokesperson for Mainely Moms and Dads, a local parents group. “But the shocking truth is that BPA is in foods made specifically for babies and toddlers. To protect our kids it’s time to get this dangerous and unnecessary chemical out of the foods our children eat.”
Studies show that one of the most common ways people are exposed to BPA is through food. BPA is used as an epoxy liner inside metal food cans and inside the metal lids of glass jars. The Alliance for a Clean and Healthy Maine sent fifteen containers of food to Anresco Laboratories for analysis in January and released the results today. BPA was found in 11 of the 12 sampled containers of baby food manufactured by Beech-Nut, Berber, Earth’s Best Organic and Shaw’s Wild Harvest brand. It was also found in all three of the canned foods sampled including Campbell’s Disney Princess SpaghettiOs, Dora the Explorer soup, and Chef Boyardee macaroni and cheese.
Moms at the rally announced the kickoff of a signature collection drive to require Maine’s Board of Environmental Protection (BEP) to consider a new rule eliminating BPA from containers of infant formula, baby and toddler foods. Under Maine’s Kid-Safe Products Act the BEP has the authority to regulate use of BPA in foods intentionally marketed to children under three years of age, but the Board hasn’t acted on that authority yet.
“The science on BPA is crystal clear – now Maine kids need action,” stated Lalla Carothers, a mother of two from Cumberland. “Let’s face it, the Kid-Safe Products Act will work if unleashed. As parents, we’re not going to stand by and wait while our children continue to be exposed to this dangerous chemical when safer alternatives are out there.”
Two companies, Beech-Nut and Wild Harvest, are currently in violation of the law for not reporting or submitting assessments of safer alternatives as required by the Kid-Safe Products Act. Manufacturers of infant formula and baby food were required by the Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) to report on use of BPA in their products by last October and those using BPA were required to submit analyses of the availability of safer alternatives to replace the BPA epoxy lining in formula cans. Gerber reported that they no longer use BPA in baby food containers and Earth’s Best Organic reported that they are in the process of phasing out BPA use and will no longer use it as of October, 2012. Beech-Nut and Wild Harvest failed to report their use of BPA and, according to the product testing results released today, both are using BPA in the lids of their baby food containers.
“We need to hold all manufacturers evenly accountable and take action to uphold the law when necessary,” said Mike Belliveau, Executive Director of the Environmental Health Strategy Center, a Maine based public health organization. “Beech-Nut and Wild harvest have violated the law by failing to report their use of BPA. The LePage Administration should take action now to enforce Maine law.”
In a letter sent January 13th, the Environmental Health Strategy Center requested the DEP take enforcement action against the companies violating the Kid-Safe Products Act. They have not yet received a response. Parents at today’s rally were looking for more than just reporting – they said they want to get BPA out of the food supply.
“Every time I use the can opener or pop open a jar of baby food or pasta sauce I’m serving up a dose of BPA to my family. We need to get BPA out of all food packaging to keep our food from being contaminated with this unwanted poison,” said Erica Harris, a mother of two from Gray. “All year long candidates will be looking for our votes to send them to Augusta to join the next legislature. I think Maine parents and grandparents should ask each of these candidates ‘are you going to support getting BPA out of our food supply?’”
The moms and dads who kicked off the BPA-Free Foods campaign said their efforts will roll-out in two phases. First, they will petition the BEP to use their existing authority under the Kid-Safe Products Act to phase out the use of BPA in foods intentionally marketed top children under the age of three. This will include infant formula, baby foods, and foods like Campbell’s Disney Princess SpaghettiOs, and other similar canned foods branded with images of cartoon characters to market to preschoolers. Next, they will educate candidates running for the Maine Legislature and ask them to pledge their support for new legislation that would authorize a phrase-out of BPA in all foods.
BPA was named Maine’s first “priority chemical” under Maine’s Kid-Safe Products Act of 2008 and as a result BPA was banned for use in baby bottles, sippy cups and other reusable food and beverage containers. Last year Governor LePage ridiculed concern over BPA, saying the worst it could do is give women “little beards”. He tried to repeal the law but the Maine Legislature upheld it by a nearly unanimous vote. The ban on BPA in reusable containers went into effect on January 1st of this year.
Megan Rice told the crowd, “no child should be exposed to the hormone havoc of BPA when they eat their favorite meal. We love Maine, we love our kids, and we want BPA out of our food.”
###########
The Alliance for a Clean and Healthy Maine is a coalition of more than 50 organizations dedicated to protecting public health and the environment by replacing unnecessary dangerous chemicals with safer alternatives. www.cleanandhealthyme.org
Reprint of:
Third hand out from Alliance for a Clean and Healthy Maine.
Chemical Analysis for BPA in Baby Food Jar Lids and Toddler Food Cans. February 2012.
We purchased twelve glass jars of baby food with metal lids at four Maine retail stores on January 16 and 17, 2012. The twelve samples include three jars each from the four major baby food brands widely sold in Maine: Beech-Nut, Earth’s Best Organic, Gerber, and Wild harvest. We also purchased three cans of Chef Boyardee and Campbell’s food eaten by toddlers. The samples were shipped to Anresco Laboratories, an independent laboratory in San Francisco, for chemical analysis.
The laboratory analyzed the metal jar lids and metal cans using Gas Chromatography-Mass Spectrometry (GCMS). Each glass-jar lid or food can was analyzed according to a proven methodology: Czech J. Food Sci. Vol. 21, No. 3:85-90 via GCMS. Standard quality control measures (including extraction of duplicate samples, and analysis of blanks) were followed.
Brand : Beech-Nut
Baby Food Product : Homestyle Green Giant Sweet Corn & Rice, 6 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Beech-Nut
Baby Food Product : Homestyle Turkey Rice Dinner, 6 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Beech-Nut
Baby Food Product : Homestyle Macaroni & Beef, 6 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Earth’s Best Organic
Baby Food Product : Tender Chicken & Stars, 6 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Earth’s Best Organic
Baby Food Product : Apple Cinnamon Oatmeal, 6 oz.
Was BPA found? : Not Detected
Brand : Earth’s Best Organic
Baby Food Product : Spring Vegetables & Pasta, 6 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Gerber
Baby Food Product : NatureSelect Fruit Medley, 6oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Gerber
Baby Food Product : NatureSelect Pasta Primavera, 6oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Gerber
Baby Food Product : NatureSelect Chicken Noodle, 6oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Wild Harvest
Baby Food Product : Organic Chicken & Stars Dinner, 6 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Wild Harvest
Baby Food Product : Organic Applesauce, 4 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Wild Harvest
Baby Food Product : Organic Sweet Potato & Chicken Dinner, 4 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Chef Boyardee
Canned Food for Toddler : Mac & Cheese, 15 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Campbell’s
Canned Food for Toddler : SpaghettiOs Original Disney Princess, 15 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Campbell’s
Canned Food for Toddler : Condensed Soup – Dora the Explorer – Shaped Pasta with Chicken in Chicken Broth, 10-1/2 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Alliance for a Clean and Healthy Maine
565 Congress Street, Suite 204, Portland, ME, 04101
Reprint of
Forth handout:
Alliance for a Clean & Healthy Maine
A diverse coalition of Maine-based organizations has embarked upon a multi-year public health campaign to phase out the long-lived toxic chemicals that build up in the food web and our bodies. Through a series of strategic issue campaigns, the Alliance for a Clean & Healthy Maine will target sources of persistent toxic chemicals to be replaced with safer alternatives. Over time, we will seek government and business commitments to phase out the entire class of persistent toxics in favor of clean production.
The organizations committed to the campaign represent health-affected children, workers, doctors, public health professionals, environmentalists and impacted communities. Together we are committed to protecting human health from toxic chemical exposure and building organizational capacity to sustain environmental health improvements. Working collectively in Maine, we can set the pace nationally for best practices that end the dangerous use of persistent toxic chemicals.
Campaign Partners
Environmental Health Strategy Center
Environment Maine
Learning Disabilities Association of Maine’s Healthy Children’s Project
Maine Council of Churches
Maine Labor Group on Health
Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association
Maine People’s Alliance
Maine Women’s Policy Center
Natural Resources Council of Maine
Physicians for Social Responsibility/Maine
Planned Parenthood of Northern New England
Toxic Action Center Campaigns
Endorsers of the Alliance Principles
AFSCME Council 93
American Academy of Pediatrics – Maine Chapter
American Cancer Society of Maine
American Lung Association of Maine
American Nurses Association – Maine
American Postal Workers Union Local 458
Androscoggin Lake Association (ALIC)
Autism Society of Maine
Belfast Co-operative, Inc.
Central Maine Labor Council
Disability Rights Center
Downeast Health Services – Family Planning
Family Planning Association of Maine
GEAR/Parent Network
Eastern Maine Labor Council
IBEW Local 1837
Katahdin Center for Education and Research
Laborers’ union Local 327
Maine Academy of Family Physicians
Maine AFL-CIO
Maine Assoc. of Interdependent Neighborhoods
Maine Cardiovascular Health Council
Maine Conservation Voters Education Fund
MCC Environmental Justice Program
Maine Developmental Disabilities Council
Maine Equal Justice Partners
Maine League of Young Voters
Maine Medical Association
Maine Nurse Practitioner Association
Maine Parent Federation
Maine Parent Teacher Association
Maine Public Health Association
Maine State Employees Assoc., SEIU Local 1989
Maine State Nurses Association
Maine Rivers
Maine Women’s Lobby
Midwives of Maine
National Association of Social Workers – Maine
Northwest Atlantic Marine Alliance
Portland Tenants Union
Southern Maine Labor Council
Student Environmental Action Coalition – Orono
The Breastfeeding Center of Maine
The Naked Truth Project
United Assoc. of Plumbers & Pipefitters Local 716
United Steelworkers Local 1188
Western Maine Labor Council
We the People
Augusta State House Hall of Flags. Occupy Augusta at the, presentation tables. Along with them is another table presentation. Here is the interview:
Interview with Tammy Trask
A: “Hi! My name is Tammy Trask and I’m a M.A.I.N.E. leader. M.A.I.N.E. stands for: The Maine Association for Interdependent Neighborhoods. And we give voice to low income concerns. People who are out in the communities working a service sector jobs, for instance, and not getting benefits. Now getting health care. Not get sick days/sick paid days. Unable to take days off. So, what’s happening is that now the rug is being pulled out from under these people. They’re going to have to either make that choice of going to work sick and thereby giving possibly that illness to other people…consumers. Or they’re going to have to take a day off and risk losing their jobs. At which puts their family at heighten risk, and very possibly needing to take the advantage of the safety net programs if, any safety net programs are left. Maine Care is a needed and necessary insurance for low income people.
Q : “Alright. Do you have anything else to say?”
A : “Well, I mean. I just…I just think it’s so important that ummm….this administration, that this legislature take into consideration, how the community as a whole is going to be impacted. It’s not just somebody else’s problem. It’s going to be all of our problems.”
Q : “Now do you have any statics or data, you’d like to go over with our readers?”
A : “Well, you know, I have pulled together some things. But off the top of my head, I don’t want to just ramble off things. I think there are 5,000 people who are at risk, and they’re low income working parents in the community who are at risk of losing their health insurance. So that’s huge.”
Q : “It is. It is. It is, and is there anything else you’d like to say?”
A : “No. I mean, for right now that’s it. And I really appreciate your allowing people to give voice to low income. Because we really need to get the message out. So thank you so much.”
Q : “You’re welcome. Thanks.”
Doug Papa talking into tape recorder.
“O.K.. We got some more signs here. We got: ‘Pulls Preti Flaherty Le Puppett strings for smart A.L.E.C..’ the second sign says: ‘Legislatures smart A.L.E.C. writes your Bill. Can A.L.E.C. collect on it? Sure Americans can care.”
The next one is from Bhamberry blog. It’s says: ‘According to M.R.S. Maine’s wealthiest 1% now pays on average effective state and local tax rate, at 14% of lower, than the statewide average accounting for federal off sets. The gap grows to 22%. The wealthiest 1% includes only 6,700. Each making an annual average of $750,786 dollars. A.G.I.’
And this piece of paper says: American Legislation Exchange Council, far right wing lobby whose lobby efforts impact every state. Donors include: American Petroleum Institute, Exxon/Mobil, Charles and David Koch, Wal-Mart, Peabody Energy, Pfizer, Bayer Reynolds America and many other major corporations. The U.S. Justice Department is being pressured to investigate ALEC’s non-profit status. Preti Flaherty Beliveau & Pachios lobbyist Ann Robinson is head of the Maine chapter of ALEC and is close advisor to Gov. Paul LePage.
The ALEC national organization has developed model bills promoting their agenda. Some have been turned into Maine applicable bills, many developed by PFB&P, and submitted in the legislature by ALEC supported legislators. One such bill eliminating same day voter registration was enacted into law them overturned by citizen’s initiative by a large margin.
ALEC’s agenda in Maine includes voter suppression tactics, voter ID requirements, eliminate same day voter registration, favorable redistricting, union busting, right to work, weakened unemployment and workman comp benefits, buts to Mainecare and other social programs, tax breaks for the rich, weakened environmental and safety regulations, weakened business regulations etc..
David and Charles Koch, major ALEC supports, own mineral and pipeline shipping rights for a portion of the tar sands oil coming out of Alberta Canada. Plans are underway to ship tar sands oil through the Montreal to Portland pipeline (236 miles) for shipment to East and Gulf coast refineries. This 70 year old pipeline was built with materials susceptible to the corrosive nature of the tar sands oil. An existing pipeline built of the same materials located in Michigan failed spilling 884,000 gallons of tar sands oil into the Kalamazoo River. Future plans include an incredibly polluting tar sands oil refinery at the BNAS.
The Koch brothers donated a million dollars to the Republican Governors Association which in turn donated nearly a million dollars to the Maine RGA Pac. Former Waldo county senator Carol Weston is a former ALEC chairperson and now heads another ALEC funded Maine organization, ‘Americans for Prosperity.’”
Interview with John McKibben
Q : “Way Back Machine Archive. Net.”
A : “And Google Catch.”
Q : “Google Catch.”
A : “If you go to Google and to will say pages. On that Google search card. That’s older pages of the same thing.”
Q : “Before we go any further. Can I get your name real quick?”
A : “Yeah, It’s John McKibben.”
Q : “How do you spell that?”
A : M-c-K-i-b-b-e-n.”
Q : “O.K.. We were talking about the, ah, data that was removed from the Department of Environmental protections Website. Because when I interviewed Hillary Lister, and Diane Messer, they state that: ‘Hydrogen Sulfide Gas bubbles were being recorded at a Maine Department of Environmental Protection Website. And when I ran into them yesterday, which was February 15th at the …outside of the Natural Resource Committee meeting. Ah, they said that data was dumped. But we can still quote it because they have a screen shot it’s on hard disc, and e-mails as well. Have you been following that at all? The Juniper Ridge Landfill.”
A : “Ah, not that. I’ve been following it basically on a preview, but I haven’t been involved in any co-ordination with anything like that.”
Q : “How about the ‘East-West Highway’?
A : “No. Not at all.”
Q : “Ah, ah, what were some of the other issues going on? Well, let me ask you, why you’re here today? How’s that?”
A : “I’m here to support the people of Maine having the right to say what they want to say. To their Legislators and to the people as a whole. And to try to get around the media’s monopoly on the message.”
Q : “You mean, like the corporate media?”
A : “Yes. Main Stream Media.”
Q : “O.K.. And ummm… well we…let me give you an example of what I was about to say. I was at the Department of Transportations’ Committee meeting about the ‘East-West.’ And what happened was all the camera’s were lined up filming the people who were supporting the proposed study for the East-West Highway. But, miraculously when the people who spoke in opposition was there, the camera’s either thinned out and right towards the end, there was no more T.V. camera’s. Is that what you’re talking about? The, you know, ‘We’re pretending to film news, but we’re not going to really show everything’?”
A : “Ah, it’s not just that. It’s they can even take video of everybody and choose to ignore it. Ah, video is cheap, and you can…as long as you’re streaming video, you can hope someone messes up. Then you can use it against them . So it’s still worthwhile to record people they don’t agree with , just so they can catch them.”
Q : “And how do you think about the media coverage for the , ah, ah, Occupy Augusta, ah, that has been taking place since October?”
A : “Ammm….Ever since …well, when we first started and all the Occupies, we had very good relations with all the media. Except for a couple of news channels. That took our…this story, and put it out of message. And, ah…”
Q : “Can you give me an example of that?”
A : “Ah, I believe Channel 8 and Channel 13, specifically were instances. Errr….We had, errr….one of….a very prominent member, Ed, Ummm…Bonenfant, who was…had a …his knife confiscated, during something that had happened. And he got a new knife, and they just showed it. And during his entire interview, they just showed a little picture of him with the knife, and demonized it.”
Q : “You mean, they only showed his knife. They didn’t show his face.”
A : “Right. Right. Right.”
Q : “Because I saw the one you’re talking…”
A : “It’s a common tool for encampments. For ropes and for everything else. And they just showed the, Ummm….the violent aspects of it, and tried to make him look like a bad person.”
Q : “now the difference between the Occupy Augusta movement, because you folks focused on Environmental issues. As well as economic issues, that didn’t exactly say, it was like the Occupy Maine movement. Which is focused on the 99%. You guys focused on the Juniper Ridge Landfill expansion.”
A : “Our goal was to give a forum for everybody to talk about their own issues. And then everybody to act in solidarity with everybody else on those issues. And once we actually gave a forum for people to come together , we realized we all agreed on a number of issues, and that’s what we focused on.”
Q : “O.K., o.k.. Ummm….And that’s what made you guys more unique. Because, you guys, really weren’t…how should I say it? Influenced more about, say, ah, the, George Soros aspect that took place in the actual Wall Street in New York City.”
A : “Right. Ah, The one that was actually was down in Wall Street, was, they didn’t even know what they were going to talk about at first. And there was some message of: ‘99% versus 1%.’ And it wasn’t until the smaller encampments appeared across the country that message started to get more defined. And you can define that per region. ‘Cuz, the same economic issues that us in Northern New England, are not the exact same issues that affect California. Ummm…we have great natural resources. We have a number of things. But our State advantage of by our neighbors and a number of other State have issues of: ‘Where do they get rid of their trash?’ That they’ve built up because of their Suburban sprawl. And give it to Maine, and that creates problems for us. So we know, these systems that are used. And it’s just identifying them to change them.”’
Q : “Now when you say ‘neighbors,’ were you talking the Canadian neighbors with the ‘East-West highway,’ and the possible pipeline corridor? Or were you talking about the Energy going down south. Because they are upgrading the Power lines? Or Both?”
A : “I’m talking about that. I’m also talking about the tree’s that just go up and down the border. Every day, based on the price of the market. So you’re releasing an immense amount of fossil fuels. Just moving Maine’s natural resources around, without actually using them. And this is a travesty. And we allowed our trees and natural resources to be used by every other State, except for ours. While we impart everybody’s trash.”
Q : “Now are you aware that some companies in Maine actually import trees from Canada?”
A : “Ah, yes they do import trees. But that’s also purely based on the market. And they we’ll sell/ send out those trees to Canada, if the price change enough in the commodities market. Just sending them up and down , across the border. It doesn’t matter whose trees they are. It’s all a commodities based system. Based on which country has the better price right now.”
Q : “And also what the currency of each country is, correct?”
A : “Right. As with the currency with each country as you’re seeing it’s going up and down. We’re what? A penny off a (Sounds like ‘Parody.’) maybe 4 cents is the latest I saw a week ago.”
Q : “I haven’t been following it. Because you know…”
A : “It was just a little side note on N.P.R. a week ago.”
Q : “And N.P.R. stands for?”
A : “National Public Radio.”
Q : “O.K.. I…because, I just got to break it down, you know. O.K., and Ah, I’m losing track here. O.K., O.K.. Ah, have you…so…have you…Ah, when it comes to…it sounds like in tune with the wood aspect in Maine. Can you go more into detail about that?”
A : “Ummm…well, Maine was already completley deforrested once by Massachusetts more or less, when we were just their resource colony. And other count…Errr…they still want to keep doing it. The reason why we build houses out of frames now, instead of big pieces of wood, is because we already destroyed Maine’s great trees. And all we got left are these little dinky things that thy’re going to over harvest, and just completely destroy the soil.
And so those resources never get back to Maine. It goes to everybody else. To their Home Depot’s to their Lowes. So they can put together flimsy structures in ‘Suburbia.” Instead of heating homes here in Maine, when our oil keeps getting cut.”
Q : “O.K., and is there anything else you’d like to add to that?”
A : “Ummm…I’m completely against the ‘East-West Highway.’ I’m actually completely against ’95.’ I think ’95,’ was built purely to extract Maine’s capital and to bring in foreign goods in order to strip more capital away and take a…and get rid of our local businesses. Every time you spend a dollar at say Wal-Mart, maybe ten cents of that goes back to that community in the form of wages and small charity events. But 90% of that money is going to leave the state, and how else do you…that’s why the state is becoming so improvised now. It’s because of all these roads that they are using to extract our resources, for…cash. And then we spend that cash to buy plastic crap from China. I mean essentially, all we are doing is we are using a byproduct …the oil, to move a byproduct of oil all around the country to end up in a landfill in Maine right now.”
Q : “Now were you here at the ‘East-West Highway,’ Ah, ah, public message/public session?”
A : “No I was not.”
Q : “O.K.. Let me tell you…this is what I spoke about. O.K., ‘cuz, because, I’m doing an online series, I can’t…I have to be neutral, about this. But I was pretty much saying: ‘Listen, when I was doing some interviews for part four, I asked Jim Freeman a question. Because, I couldn’t exactly get an answer from the Maine State Police commissioner. I said, isn’t it a coincidence, isn’t it a parallel of a reality, how bath salts are illegal in Maine. Like 2 ½ pounds is a $170,000 and we got all these out of state container trucks going up to Juniper Ridge Landfill and, low and behold, Bangor has now got a huge problem with Bath Salts.”’
A : “Um-hun.”
Q : “O.K.? ‘So they can go from one end of Maine to the other end of Maine, and not worry about having their doors opened up and so forth.”’
A : “Right. Because there is …How else are they going to enforce the laws on the ‘East-West Highway’? We are already trying to shut down the amount of roads that we have to have to have cops on because we can’t afford to pay them. And it’s…that’s completely ridiculous, and it’s probably a very good point. Are they going to put weight-stations on the ‘East-West Highway,’ and whose going to pay that? Are the citizens of Maine going to pay for these weight stations?”
Q : “No, ‘cuz it’s a private highway.”
A : “O.K., so it’s…”
Q : “My issue was the police, if they have a few rest-stops…are those rest stops going to see a sudden explosion of illegal drugs and other illegal substances?”
A : “That…That’s…That sounds like it could be the case. Ummm…but it’s not just…is this going to be running along that pipeline? Is…errr…and uh…well first off, the number of east-west roads across Maine is really lacking. But that’s in order, to keep Maine from just becoming, you know, a place for people to ‘breeze through,’ on their way around, hopefully. Umm…but yeah, I mean, I don’t know.”
Q : “What I think is what they’re going to do, O.K.? It’s not official, but from my synopsis, the ‘East-West Highway,’ is going to run across existing roads. Like Stud Mill road.”
A : “Is it going to use Golden to Golden Road?”
Q : “I have no idea about that.”
A : “Alright. Alright.”
Q : “But my concern was: ‘Well if they are going to be using private roads, for this toll road, what’s going to happen to those residential roads?”
A : “Well this is, what happened with the ‘I.C.C.,’ connector down in Maryland. When I was down there, it was called the ‘Inter County Connector.’ And the idea was: You’re going to link up 270 to 95 without having to go on the beltway.’ And so they built this road, and then they decided to make it a private road. And then they realized, that not enough people were going to use it, so they had to raise the toll rates. And now it costs about $10 a day to use this Highway,
And nobody can afford to use it except for the absolute richest amongst us. And then, before you know it, on 95, they’re probably start here putting in ‘Lexus lanes,’ like they did down in Maryland. And these are, ah…”
Q : “Lexus lanes?”
A : “Lexus lanes. This is like an extra lane on the side of the road, that is a toll. So you can pay three bucks, to get in a faster land onto around rush-hour. But they could probably do that around Portland.”
Q : “O.K..”
A : “They call them ‘high occupant, hot lanes.’ High occupant..not high occupancy travel…it’s ummm…”
Q : “High Occupants.”
A : “No, it’s not high occupants. It’s something else. It’s a different ‘O,’ word.”
Q : “Occupation?”
A : “I don’t know. E call them ‘Lexus lanes.”
Q : “O.K.. O.K.. So, yeah, getting back to the ‘East and West Highway.’ My main concern was if they’re going to use existing roads, because I know Stud Mill road was one of the roads they named off and so forth. What’s going to happen those other little roads that are off that as well? And if there is going to be a police presence, are they going to pull over the Canadian trucks? Because how many of those Juniper Ridge trucks are they pulling over now coming in from Massachusetts?”
A : “Right.”
Q : “And the other concern is if it’s private, you know, that’s o.k.. but these, these, seals, electronically sealed, what are they going to say to the police force/law enforcement office? ‘Oh, do you have one of those things to open up an electronic sealed truck? You don’t? Oh sorry, I guess you can’t open it up.” And then the next thing you know, you know, we could be facing highly illegal substances coming through Maine. And because it’s going to pass two hours of the Mounted Police in Canada, in the St. Lawrence River valley and so forth. They were shocked, except for the guy who sponsored the bill. I think his last name was Douglas. He just looked like he was bored out of his mind, like it was some sort of ‘Psych-Ops,’ thing of course. And that was the main point I brought up and stuff. Because Will did touch upon it. Will Neils. He didn’t go into much detail as I did, because I actually went online and did the research and so forth.”
A : “Right.”
Q : “Do you have anything else you want to say about the ‘East-West Highway’?”
A : “I…no. No, I don’t.”
Q : “Do you…”
A : “I have to go look it up more now. I really have to go look to see where they are going to lay it out in Maine.”
Q : “Well it’s going to be from Calais to Colburn’s Gore. O.K.? And from Calais side, you got the, ah, the, the Stud Mill road. That’s going all the way across. It’s going to go about Flagship Lake. Now the thing with Flagship Lake is, is in my series, I went online, and I did a search engine on: Pattie Aho, ‘attack dog lawyer,’ for Maine dumps. Because 22 years ago, according to ah, Nancy Oden, Pattie Aho was on the wrong side of a dump fight in Township 30. Pattie Ahos’ side spent 3 ½ million dollars. Ah…”
A : “It’s a way of getting trash in en mass too. I mean you could get trash in so quickly with an ‘East-West Highway.’ And especially if you go through that area. Who can regulate that? Nobody lives out… well, there are very few people that live out there, and especially no law enforcement regulation. Errr…or enough to make a difference. That wasn’t even…”
Q : “Well ah, that…the…they do the weight. They do weight stations where they head into Juniper Ridge Landfill and so forth. But the point I was making was, ah, ah, Nancy Odens’ side spent $75,000 and beat back the dumps, in Township 30.”
A : “Un-hun.”
Q : “There was a lot of talk how toxic chemicals are being put in the back of 55 gallon drums. Then put back of containers, doors opened up a little bit, the stuff dribbles out, hits the road. Allegedly, it happened in Township 30. Ah, it might of happened in Athens, and it might be going on with Juniper Ridge. Where the stuff hardens up and goes into the streams and so forth. Ah, A couple of times, supposedly possibly, the Maine Department of Environmental Protections Spill Response team was called, nothing was done and so forth. So with the ‘East-West Highway,’ getting back to Patricia Aho, the Conservation Law Foundations’, Sean Mahoney, gave me permission to reprint a letter.”
A : “Have they done an Environmental Impact Study yet? An ‘E.S.I. report. It would be interesting to see that.”
Q : “Well, on what? The ‘East-West Highway?””
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “All I know is a lot of studies have been done so far. It was back in 1998. I think one in ’08. The Canadian side they’ve been spending a lot money on studies. I guess this one last study is for the investors.”
A : “MM-hun.”
Q : “But the point I was making about Flagship Lake was, ah, Pattie Aho, ‘dropped the ball.’”
A : “Right.”
Q : “O.K.? And he pointed out it might have been intently. So now the Department of Environmental Protection has gots no say, what happens with Florida Power and Light, for Flagship Lake for the next 25 years. And this ‘East-West Highway,’ goes right about Flagship Lake. So, all these Windmills, Dams, these other, ‘power things,’ are going to be able to hook into that grid. And according to Jim Freeman, it’s going to ‘T-off,’ at Costigan, so it can go south. So it’s not just a highway, but you got the pipeline for the electricity. Not a pipeline. Well the electricity. You also got other things you can do too. Like you can build a pipeline for water. So you got all this natural water being drained from aqua fills, being…that can be shipped out to Nova Scotia, and going to Europe and so forth. So…”
A : “I would not be surprised about that in the slightest. Maine has the best water left in this damn country and so, of course they want it. It’s the only thing unpolluted left.”
Q : “So you see how it’s all…”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “…being connected between the gravel, the water, the electricity. Ah, Peter, Vigue did say, ‘communications,’ but I got no idea how he;s working…thinking about communications, and the road and so forth. And it’s also they say it’s a billion dollars, but according to other studies it’s suppose to be $16-$17 billion dollars. So there’s a huge discrepancy there, and forth. So I got no idea why, you know, we’re hearing one price from a private corporation using existing roads versus the $16-$17 billion dollars that they say, was floated around since the Roosevelt Administration about this. So basically, it seems like the wool is being pulled over the Maine people’s eyes and so forth.”
A : “Absolutely.”
Q : “Now do you know anything else about the ‘East-West Highway’?”
A : “No, I have to go look it up. I didn’t know much about it, before I heard about it. Errr…especially in relation to Casella’s and a whole bunch of other places.”
Q : “Because it’s going through Juniper Ridge Landfill?”
A : “Right.”
Q : “O.K.. Do you have anything else you would like to say?”
A : “No, that’s it man. You got me.”
Q : “O.K., O.K..”
A : “Have a good one.”
Q : “Thanks. I appreciate it.”
Interview with Jim Freeman
Q : “Oh, read that that off already.”
A : “O.K., Alright. But we’re here today to explain to people what the American Legislature Exchange Council, or A.L.E.C., is up to. It’s a right wing heritage foundation group that sets an agenda, ah, writes legislation and fives it to Republican Governors around the Country. Particularly, this has been the case in Wisconsin, Ohio, Florida, and Maine. Where the Governors are less than qualified. So they easily grab onto this legislation and try to be the biggest show in their state and it’s just a macho thing: ‘We’re going to cut this. We’re going to cut this. We’re going to cut this.’ It’s all part of the corporate takeover. Ah, A.L.E.C. is funded by the Koch Brothers. Ummm….who are the fourth and fifth richest individuals in the Country. Ummm….and it’s just again as I said, a corporate takeover. So we just want to explain to people why we’re here and this needs to stop.”
Q : “And your sign is the one that says: ‘Preti Flaherty. Koch a doodle-doo, should be a wakeup call for you.”
A : “Ummm…And Preti Flaherty has a woman named Ann Robinson who directly works for A.L.E.C., she works under Preti Flaherty banner, and Severin Beliveau, who are the largest lobbying firm in the State. And she works directly through them and gets paid by A.L.E.C., Ah, to Lobby for her/ their agenda. And we, think this is despicable. Because it’s certain citizens, particular low income citizens in the State of Maine.”
Q : “Now speaking of Lobbyists, I did an, errr…I was…I did…errr…an interview with George MacDonald.”
A : “MM-hun.”
Q : “And he mentioned, ah…I forget her name but, the Governors advisor for the , ah, the landfills. She spoke a lot at committee meetings and so forth. And I did a background check. I …Car…Ah…Carlie, ah, McLean.”
A : “MM-hun.”
Q : “And in her profile, online, she is a former lobbyist, (Note to readers online it says attorney-Doug.) for Preti Flaherty.”
A : “Right. They’re all connected. I mean, they are a law firm, but they are the largest Environ. I mean they are the largest lobbying firm in the country. And anybody who comes into this state, usually they have a thing called, ‘one stop shopping. You come in here, we’ll get your permits, we’re do this, we’ll do that,’ and they are totally connected. They ah, pretty much ran the Baldacci Administration. They are pretty much running the LePage Administration. So it’s just despicable.”
Q : “Now is it, do you also think there is a connection when the Portland Phoenix, did the article, in the ah, ‘the making of Paul LePage.’ They pointed out that, two companies, that Paul LePage worked for in the past, went out of business because of the Department of Environmental Protection. And now all of a sudden, we have Patti Aho, whose head of the Department of Environmental Protection, who used to be a lobbyist for, ah, Pierce Atwood.”
A : “Correct. Yeah. I think they are all connected. I think that people come directly out of industry into the state government with an agenda already in hand, and dismantle anything that’s working in the state. So I think there is a strong, connection to that.”
Q : “And what do you think about the sudden switch of ah, Peter Rodgers going from being, ah, resigning Communications Director for the Governor’s Office and all of a sudden gong over to the State Planning Office after the other, ah, gentleman, who was the acting Director guy got arrested for drunk driving?”
A : “’Good Old Boy Network,’ in action. You were in the Department of Transportation meting the other day. It’s the good old boy network. You know, they bring in people from industry are allowed to speak at nauseam. And people who are, the public, you know, get limited to 3 or 4 minutes. Ummm… it’s just, that’s part of the system. We’re not, this isn’t really a democracy anymore.”
Q : “It’s more of a…I don’t want to use ‘Technocracy.’ But more like the large bankers and whoever, having the money, to put people in the office and then the favors have to be done.”
A : “Corporate control. Total Corporate corruption.”
Q : “O.K.”
A : “Thanks.”
Interview Diane Messer
Q : “O.K., and Diane do you want to talk about what you’re doing here today, at the Rotary in Augusta?”
A : “Sure, we’re standing here at the rotary, right next to the Preti Flaherty building/ Vera Dana building, because they are part of the Corporate Empire. They use their influence with lobbyists to get big business support and control in our Legislature, and our House and Senate. Which we just marched over here from. And we’re speaking to the people and telling them…there, do you hear good honks there? There are people supporting us. We’re telling people to speak out. To act out and to tell our Legislatures we will not tolerate them being influenced and bought by lobbyists and big money.”
Q : “And just as an example, I interviewed George MacDonald, and Caslisle McLean the Governor’s advisor for things like the Juniper Ridge issue, online, her resume/past resume, is lobbyist …Attorney for Preti Flaherty. ( Note to readers online it says Attorney.) so is that the sort of thing you’re talking about? Is how they infiltrated government?”
A : “Yes, Yes, Absolutely. We see, ah, the lobbyist get, ah, specialized treatment. Get special access. Closed door. And, ah, we see amendments. Unfavorable amendments being put on good bills. We see good bills being defeated, because lobbyist throw their weight around. Because they are representing the corporate interests, that, ah, have, ah, the deep pockets now. There is no control over the amount of money, that, ah, corporations can spend. Thanks to, ah, bills like Citizens United, well the Supreme Court case that is, Citizens United. And they feel that’s, ah, a seal of approval for them. They can do whatever they please. Whose going to stop them? Whose going to tell them, ‘no,’? the people are. We’re going to demand ‘no,’ and our voice is going to be louder because we are the bottom line. If they think they can survive, without people to buy, watch their bottom line shrink. When massive general strikes take place. When we refuse to buy their products. We stay local. That’s what we’re working on. Focusing on a local economy. On, ah, people helping each other out. Errr…We can even use a local currency. We don’t need the big corporations. We need to start showing people that they can stand up. Thant they have a voice.”
Q : “Now when I usually…I use the word ‘General Strike.’ People look at me and ask me: ‘what the heck am I talking about?’ Can you go more into detail for our readers?”
A : “Well, it just means , an organized effort to show people not to support those businesses. Not to buy their products. For instance, I’ll use an example. Ummm…in Ummm… ‘Occupy Oakland,’ they, Ummm… when their camp got broken up, and the police were very brutal with them, unreasonably so, not just enforcing law. They were actually violent for no just cause. And, ah, the people in ‘Occupy,’ said: ‘We’re not going to lay down for this.’ Errr…They organized themselves. They, ah, struck first. The, ah, Port of, Ummm…ah, now I forgot the name of it, sorry.”
Q : “ Umm…Port of Entry at Los Angeles?”
A : “Ah, was it Long Beach?”
Q : “Long Beach, yes.”
A : “Long Beach? I believe it was. I may be wrong on that. Check the facts. Ah, they struck a Port, Ah, they got co-operation from the Long Shore men. They got Unions, were supporting it. They virtually shut that harbor down. And then a month or so later, they got a massive effort, on the whole, Ummm….Western seaboard. I forgot exactly which Ports, 3 or 4 Major Ports. Simultaneously shut down, and it put a huge dent in shipping and in business. We need to do more of that on a larger scale and show them that if all they count is their bottom line, if they don’t care about the benefit of the people, we are what keeps their corporation running. We, our buying power, is what in large numbers is what supports their bottom line, and what gives them the big salaries. And we show them, under no uncertain terms, we can cut off the flow of dollars and they will come to realize just how much they do need us. And that they’re going to have to…(signs.) How do you reform a corporation? Ummm…I’ve been thinking about that. Ah, there are some good ones out there. Believe it or not, there are some good corporations that, ah, use ah, Errr….a large percentage of their profits to do public good, and we’re just going to start supporting those. And hopefully the guys that are on the fence, are going to see that, and they are going to jump on board, and say: ‘Ah, we are going to go with the green corporations that support the needs of the people.’ And pretty soon, the, ah, the, ah, large ranks of the, ah, corporate empire are going to begin shrinking. They need our buying power. People think they are powerless against the big corporations, because they are so huge. Because they have so much power now. But they didn’t get anywhere, without us buying their products, and we have to do a lot of different things too. We need to reform our trade policy. We need to eliminate all these free trade agreements. What they are doing is giving, the, ah, corporations, ah, the ability to go off-shore, to avoid taxes. To avoid paying tariffs. They, ah, pay pennies on the dollar to foreign workers, in horrible ‘sweat shop,’ conditions, and don’t have to pay benefits. And then they get a free-pass, a waiver on paying tariffs and bringing the stuff back into the country. Because they are paying under the table, to the Legislatures, who supported these free trade agreements. So, it’s this wonderful symbiotic, vicious, dirty, symbiotic, Errr...relationship. they give the money under the table to the politicians that are willing to continue supporting the, ah, free trade agreements, and sending these corporations offshore. And giving them huge tax loop holes. And then, they just let them back into the Country. Their goods into the country. With, ah, very, ah, minimal, ah, fees of any kind, ah, tariffs, trade tariffs. And they’re reaping huge profits. And then in turn, with all this, ah, huge growth and income, and errr….ummm….they pay more money to the politicians to keep the, ummm…the, Errr….dirty machine, the oily dirty machine working.”
Q : “Now when you said symbiotic, that more of a parasitic thing?”
A : “It is. It is. It is a parasitic, but it’s, you know, the…(signs.) Who do they thing, ummm…is going to come out on top? See the politicians feel like, ah, they can stay in power indefinitely with the corporate money. But when the people rise up against these corporations the politicians are going to, -The ones that have turned their back on the people. They are going to have no one to support them. That’s the idea.”
Q : “Now when you were talking about a ‘general strike,’ wouldn’t that take some preparations? I mean, wouldn’t people have to stock pile on food and goods? So they wouldn’t actually have to buy for, like a month?”
A : “Well, there’s certain, Ummm…you can target certain corporations. You don’t have to strike everything at once. That would be ideal, but it’s going to be hard to organize something like that. You start on a…you could start with a certain category. You could, ah, big box stores, you know. They are hurting tremendous harm to our local economy. To our, little…what do they refer to it? ‘Mom and Pop,’ shops, the hardware store in town that has been there five generations. The shoe shop, that’s been there for…we got in Belfast for instance, we have Colburn Shoes. That is the longest operating shoe store in the United States.”
Q : “Wow.”
A : “Yeah. So we support our small local businesses. We can strike. Start with big box stores, and just get people to say no to Wal-Mart. To, Ummm….all the other large…(Car horn beeps frantically on the rotary.) We got a supporter there. To all the other larger big box stores, like Home Depot and Lowes and all of those. And support our local hardware stores. Support the local folks that are part of our economy. Whose survival depends on us, for the buying. For Wal-Mart, if a store is not doing well, they don’t think twice, shutting the doors. Having a big empty, ah, building sitting there being a drain on the…a blight, and move onto someplace else.”
Q : “Well. Plus it’s also cheap stuff too. Because when people are thinking they are getting a deal, when they buy a vacuum cleaner at Wal-Mart, it’s got a lot of plastic parts. It’s going to break down.”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “Whereas if you buy something from say a local…”
A : “Better made.”
Q : “Exactly. It’s got…”
A : “Quality. It does cost a little more, but it lasts longer. If you had something that’s going to last five years, instead of five months, wouldn’t you be willing to pay a little bit more for it?”
Q : “Exactly, Exactly.”
A : “We just have to let people know that quality counts. To pay attention to that.”
Q : “Now do you, ah, when you were talking about the big corporations also, ah, did I mention Carlie McLean?”
A : “Who?”
Q : “No, I just did, When I was talking about the Attorney for, ah, the former attorney for Preti, Flaherty, who is the Governor’s advisor.”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “O.K.. I just wanted to make sure I brought up that point and so forth. O.K.. And now the other thing too, is, ah…well let me read what your sign says. Yours is the one that says, ‘A.L.E.C.’s prizes in Maine, Tar Sands oil carried on the Montreal-Portland pipeline.’ Now I was just reading about that online.”
A : “Mm-hun. I went to a forum on the 9th of February in , ah, Portland. At the Glickman Library at the University of Southern Maine Campus, and we had standing room only. The room was packed. We could not fit any more people in. That many people that are concerned about keeping, dirty that sands oil, out of the State of Maine.”
Q : “So how many people estimated would that be?”
A : “Oh God! A few hundred people, were there.”
Q : “O.K..”
A : “And that’s not a huge room. If you go up on the seventh floor of the Glickman Library, Amm…we were packed in there. You know, we couldn’t, it would have been…we could of probably have fir 3 or 4 more in, but it would have been tight. You know, not that much movement, not space to move.”
Q : “This is a 70 year old pipeline that was used in World War II.”
A : “Yes, it is a World War II era pipeline. It now carries, ah, gas and ah, I think sections of the pipeline carry, ah, standard crude oil. But, they, ah, the company that, owns that pipeline, Enbridge –It’s a Canadian Corporation, they are…Ummm….been consistently, through various sections of the pipeline that run, Ontario, Umm…Sardinia I think is the name of the town, up to, Ummm….Montreal Quebec. They have been applying, section by section, for reversal permits. Which means they are going to remove what’s flowing in the pipes now, divert it elsewhere and the only reason they are going to do that, is to bring tar sands oil in. And what I’m really concerned about is, with this ‘East-West Highway on top of that they are talking about it, being a ‘utility corridor,’ as well as a highway. Which means they’re intending to put things like pipelines through that same space. We can’t let that happen.”
Q : “And, Ummm….also exporting water, which because is a possibility too.”
A : “Well, we’re doing that on a massive level already. With, ah, letting, ah, (signs.) Poland Springs. The water that’s being pumped out of there is a large corporation, Nestle.”
Q : “Right.”
A : “And most people know that. And their continuing their operations and many towns are feeling the deficit. Wells are in trouble because they don’t have enough pressure. And, you know. Nestle runs out of water pressure in an area, they just pick up stakes and move to another spot. But local communities are passing ordnances now, preventing ground water extraction. So, we’re going to fight them at every location that they turn.”
Q : “Now, I was reading a hand out that was at the Statehouse, and they were talking about…O.K….One of them stated in Michigan they used the same type of pipeline, and actually ‘bursted,’ because of the, ah…”
A : “Yeah, they’re in Kalamazoo Michigan, Ummm….Enbridge had a major, major leak.”
Q : “Wait! The same company?”
A : “Yes, the same company, and it still in the courts. They have not begun the clean-up that they promised. Well they have done a little of it, but they’re not doing nearly enough. Because tar sands leakage, the, ah, tar sands oil, what they call Bitumen. It’s much more heavier. They don’t call it ‘tar sands,’ for nothing. It’s like holding a glob of tar. If you pick up a muck of that, and it’s the stuff… even when they put chemicals in it, they dilute it. It’s called ‘Dilbit.’ Which stands for diluted Bitumen. They have to dilute it, to send it through the pipeline, because it’s too thick and ‘gooey,’ otherwise. And the other end when it gets to the refinery, they have to separate the dilute out of it. And when that stuff breaks, when the pipeline breaks and that leaks. It’s very, very hard to clean up. When it gets into water, it doesn’t float like most oil does. It sinks to the bottom and they got this muck, and they got to dredge to get that stuff out of there. It is a horrible mess. It’s really bad.”
Q : “Wow!”
A : “Yeap.”
Q : “Wow! So, and of course Governor Le Page is he backing this?”
A : “Well, we haven’t heard anything otherwise from his office. Ah, you know, if he was… I fully expect him to be supporting this pipeline. Yeah, for sure.”
Q : “ ‘Cuz I always notice that when I used to talk to….USED TO, I emphasis that, talk to Adrienne, the Governor’s Press Secretary…”
A : “I would suggest you go to his Press Secretary, or his Representative.”
Q : “We ain’t talking anymore.” (Laughs.)
A : “Not talking? Well…”
Q : “The point I was making was, at the…she never had a statement about the “East-West Highway.’ “
A : “Really?”
Q : “And then at the Department of Transportation, who was speaking up about it? But the Governor’s Office was in support of that.”
A : “Yes.”
Q : “And they always do that last minute thing.”
A : “Well, they always want to stay under the radar, until they can spring it on us…right?”
Q : “Exactly, Exactly. That’s probably why they won’t have any statement.”
A : “Well, we’re still going to fight back against it. We’re not going to put up with it.”
Interview with Lucia
Q : “O.K., and do you want to talk about why you are here protesting?”
A : “Yeah. I think, ummm….I think it’s time that we get out and hit the streets and make it very clear we don’t want this Corporate takeover, anymore. Any Ummm….I think, ummm….where the ‘Occupy Movement,’ itself was taken from the, ah, I think the Arab countries, and we just took their example and hit the streets. And I’m really happy that, we’re responding in this kind of way, to things that are going on in our Government, and it’s a long time coming.”
Interview with Phyllis Coelho
A : “I live in Belfast and concerned with the, ah, propane tanks that are being proposed for Searsport. A little sleepy town, just north of Belfast. And, ah, these tanks are going to be holding thousands and thousands and thousands of levels of propane. And, ah, liquid propane. And, Ummm….they will have a flare. About a 137 feet, which is an eternal flare. And tankers will be coming in from Qatar. And they will be unloading the liquid propane from the tankers and there will be pipelines that will be piping into the tanks. And then there will be trucks, ah, that will be, ah, taking the liquid propane, and then shipping it all across the New England area. So, we’re talking about 144 trucks a day, on the roads in, ah, Maine, and also, you know, that means 218 trips. And ah, when you think about it, for over a period of time, it’s about 44,000 trucks.”
Q : “Is that annually? 44,000?”
A : “Yeah. And so, it’s going to create huge problems. And the liquid propane, if there’s an accident, this propane cannot be put out with water. It needs special chemicals to put it out. So people are terrified. Their houses are, Errr…already people are trying to sell their houses. And the D.E.P., has given them, initially a go, on it. And people now want a moratorium, and they also hope that people in Searsport will vote for a moratorium. And, ah…”
Q : “When D.E.P., gave the ‘O.K.’ was that when, ah, Dave Litell was the Commissioner or Pattie Aho, the current Commissioner?”
A : “Aho. Aho. The current, ah, Commissioner. So, Ah, that’s the problem we are facing now. And we are hoping that we have a litigation against the D.E.P., because they, ah, just pushed this through. And we’re hoping that the people of Searsport, will vote ‘yes,’ for a moratorium in March.”
Q : “Now are you familiar who Nancy Oden is, from Clean Earth Farms?”
A : “Nancy Oden from…?”
Q : “Clean Earth Farms.”
A : “No.”
Q : “O.K.. I interviewed her for part two of this series.”
A : “Uh-Hun.”
Q : “And she stated that, ’22 years ago Pattie Aho was on the wrong side of a dump fight.’ “
A : “Oh, I know she was. Yeah.”
Q : “In Washington County.”
A : “She was a lobbyist for the oil companies.”
Q : “Well, Errrr….Pierce Atwood.”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “When she was a lobbyist for. So, Pierce Atwood she was a lobbyist for. 22 years ago on the wrong side of a dump fight, in Washington County, when her side spent 3 ½ million dollars, and Nancy Oden and her crew…”
A : “Un-Hun.”
Q : “…Spent $75,000 and took 3 whole years. Sometimes 24 hours in a day…”
A : “Wow!”
Q : “To, ah….they actually beat back the dumps. And that’s next thing you know, the people with the out-of-state, coming in went to Mill sites. You had Millinocket Mill, and you had all this. Now I contacted Samantha over at the Department of Environmental Protection.”
A : “Uh-Hun.”
Q : “And, I was like, I asked her, I’m like, you know, ‘Is it true that, ah, ah, 22 years ago. Pattie Aho was an attack dog lawyers for the dumps?’ First she says, ‘No.’ And then she says, ‘if you look at our website, for the past 25 years, ah, Pattie Aho has been a great service to the Environment.’ Now I did an interview with Diane Messer and, ah, Hillary Lister…”
A : “She was a lobbyist for the oil companies, Aho. And she is definitely a LePage puppet. And he is of course…LePage is a puppet for the corporations. That’s why we are here today.”
Q : “Now are you aware that, ah, LePage, before he became Governor, had two…worked for two corporations that were shut down by the Department of Environmental Protection?”
A : “I didn’t know that.”
Q : “So…”
A : “The more I met, the more I know is that he’s an Alcoholic and goes to bars.”
(Note to readers: Since I am ‘shut-off,’ from communicating with Governor LePage’s Press Secretary, I cannot confirm this allegation.)
(Voices in the background, “That’s slippery.”)
A : “Whoops! Oh-oh. That’s why he probably, Ah! Ah!...”
(Note: This point the protest walks back to the Statehouse and we have to negotiate a snow bank on foot.)
A : “Oh I can’t go this way.”
Q : “O.K.. Well, the reason why I brought up the Pattie Aho thing also, was because, ah…when I asked her about it, I got it on tape…”
A : “I guess I can try to go this way. Wait, a minute. Wait a second. I need some help. AHHH!!”
(Female voice: “Do you need some help?”)
A : “Yeah, well I can…this guys helping. That’s alright. Whaaa!!!!”
(With my help she makes it over without falling.)
A : “Thank you. I have a false knee. The way it’s called a prosthesis in there. That’s O.K.. I’m fine.”
Q : “So, I asked Pattie Aho at a committee meeting. I’m like, ‘pattie do you mind if I ask a question?’ “
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “And so she goes: ‘What’s the question?’ I’m like, ‘Is it true that 22 years ago…’ She stops and she does, ‘Wait. Who are you?’ I go, ‘Doug Papa.’ She goes, ‘No. You can’t ask me this question during a committee meeting.’ So…yeah, they have been totally avoiding it. And what I was saying was, I interviewed Diane Messer and Hillary Lister…”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “There was information on the D.E.P. website, about Hydrogen- Sulfide gas being released at the Juniper Ridge Landfill.”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “And all of a sudden that data has been removed from the website. Now I can say it…”
A : “Wow!”
Q : “…Because there is a screen shot, but it just seems like all these coincidental things that are taking place surrounding Pattie Aho, whose…”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “Former ‘Attack dog Lawyer,’ and ah…are you familiar with Pattie Aho- the open letter to Pattie Aho?”
A : “The what?”
Q : “The open letter to Pattie Aho, from the ah…Conservation Law Foundation.”
A : “No.”
Q : “Apparently, Pattie Aho, ‘dropped the ball,’ on, ah, overseeing Florida Light and Powers’ Flagship, ah, Lake project.
Because they have a, Hydro Dam up there.”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “And now the State of Maine gets ‘no say,’ on what takes place up in Flagship Lake for the next 25 years. And it happens to be on the same route as the ‘East-West Highway.’ “
A : “Right, yeah.”
Q : “So, do you…”
A : “Yeah, I’m not familiar with it, but I know about the ‘East-West Highway.’ “
Q : “So, the issue you were…”
A : “Now that’s been going on for a long time. We’ve demonstrated against the ‘East-West Highway,’ ah, about five years ago. And, ah, it was under Baldacci, that we started this whole idea about the ‘East-West Highway.’ Well, that’s what I know.”
Q : “Now do you think that, that the issue we talked about, the Natural Gas Pipeline, might tie into, ah, transporting more of that Natural Gas, ah, through the ‘East-West Highway,’ and into the Canadian…”
A : “Yes. Absolutely. It’s all connected. Just like the Highway is going to connect everything. So all these issues are connected.” (Get’s really angry at this point.) “And it’s to put money in the pocket of the ENERGY PEOPLE!!!! And I don’t want to say anymore. I’m getting out of breath.” (Chuckles.)
Carlisle McLean
Carlisle : “The Governor’s Office, together with leadership in both chambers, committed to composition a balanced, a diversed group to take a hard look at these issues and propose responsible and meaningful change…and reform. We took that commitment very seriously, as demonstrated by the composition of the committee and the proposal before you. On behalf of Governor. I/Of the, the Governor, I’d like to thank Beardsley and the other members of the reform commission, for working to bring something of this caliber to you for consideration. I will quickly review, U…that, what, which L.D. 1791 actually does and then Commissar Beardsley and Commissar Aho. Will also briefly address you from their perspectives. The bill proposes changes to the purpose and scope of L.U.R.C., that will balance environmental and economic interest, for the first time in almost four decades.
The bill returns…ah, retains a jurisdiction wide approach to land use Zone and Planning. This provides certainty to large owners environmental groups. The bill changes the composition of L.U.R.C., from 7 members to 9 members. Six of which would be a county commissioner of a designee from the six counties with the largest acreage of the ‘U.T.; and three Gubernatorial appointments, subject to approval, by the Legislature.
The Governor wants to ensure that independent state boards and commissions, have proper oversight. Therefore, all members should be confirmed by the Senate, as with any confirmable independent board or commission. This change will provide the proper process and oversight for L.U.R.C.. The bill proposes transfer of sight location of development perming…permitting to D.E.P.. L.U.R.C. Spends much of its time and resources engaged in project permitting, which distracts and detracts from its role as a planning body. With this change, L.U.R.C., will have the ability to refocus its efforts. The bill proposes a change that would allow a region, as defined by county boundaries, to remove itself from L.U.R.C. jurisdiction after 3 years have passed from date on enactment; and so long as the county in question, prepares a comprehensive plan and zoning plan. That the planning scheme is consistent with state policies, and let L.U.R.C. has approved the plan. Where this option exercised, it should be done in a manner that ensures cost will be borne by the region in question; and the other planning goals are met.
The administration recognizes that interested parties on both sides of this issues, are not completely satisfied. AS you know, at times, the best decisions are the ones that don’t make one of the other viewpoint completely happy. There are times for compromise and times for fight. This seems like a time to coalesce around long overdue positive improvements. The administrate committees two additional important points. First, the administration stands ready to consider additional work, by your committee, and looks forward to making agency representatives available to…to your analyses, or to you directly during work sessions. Second, transfer site locations and all wind development permitting from L.U.R.C., to D.E.P.. Ummm…will create resources at D.E.P.. The administrations will assert…assure, it’s needs are met.
In closing, I remind your committee that rural Maine is looking…is losing populations and experiencing racket…A rapid economic decline. You should act; on behalf of Governor LePage. I urge your support for L.D. 1798 and would be happy to answer your questions. And I think I just hit 3 minutes.”
Unidentified voice : “Yeap.”
Carlie McLean : “Sorry to speak so quickly.”
Unidentified voice : (Chuckles.) “Thank, Thank you. Any...Yeah, Representative Snider…Senator Snider.”
Senator Snider : “Thank you very much Mr. Chair. Just curious, Ummm…(Pause.) Does, Does the administration see this new Board as, a planning Board, or as an economic development Board; Or some of both?”
Carlie McLean : “We see this Board as a planning Board and zoning Board; And I believe that was the original charge. And we’ve been detracted from that mission. Because they have taken on so much permitting work; and so this will give them an opportunity to refocus on, regional planning/ prospective planning, similar to what they’ve done in Rangeley. And reach out to the regions and really do that kind of work; which they were originally charged to do.”
Senator Snider : “That, that’s helpful. Thank you.”
Unidentified Chair : “Any other questions? Thank you. Ah…”
Commissioner Bill Beardsley
Senator Sherman : “Ah, Mr. Beardsley?”
(Note to readers: microphone didn’t pick up next few words.)
Commissioner
Bill Beardsley : “Senator Sherman, Representative Edgecomb, members of the A.C.F. committee, I’m Bill Beardsley, testifying in favor of L.D. 1798. Ah, the ah, this bill, ah, reflects the unanimous recommendations of the L.U.R.C. reform commission. The L.U.R.C. board, staff and I have initiatives under way. We have moved our permitting division from Augusta to Greenville. We are streamlining the permit process with tools, such as, ‘permit by rule.’ We’re finding a way to add natural resource..ah, natural resource economist and other missing skills to our planning team. We are, (clears throat.) establishing planning relationships with regional planning associations, economic development entities, county ‘U.T.’ administrators, elected officials and other constituencies; such as local, (Note to readers: Next word sounded jumbled up.) Regional, County and land owner planning. So, they can be better incorporated into future, L.U.R.C., comprehensive plans.
What L.D. 1798 does is codify these intentions. What it does is reaffirm L.U.R.C.’s mission of preservation and protection; while adding such consensus. Ah, ah, mission objectives, as economic vitality, local input and respect for private property. L.D. 1798 reaffirms a state-wide board, staff and comprehensive plan. It also shifts the method of choosing the L.U.R.C. board members, from entirely selected in Augusta, to having some members selected by elected officials in local government. For far too many rural citizens, land owners, elected officials, and service center interests, there’s been a strong sediment that L.U.R.C. has been dismissive of their wishes; their views have been marginalized. In acknowledging these sediments, L.D. 1798, has honed a mechanism, by which after several years of giving L.U.R.C. an opportunity to excel, after jumping through numerous expensive hurdles; such as, setting up county charters, establishing and funding planning zoning and appeals capability. After full compliance with all other State and Federal regulations, in short, a very high bar, that last resort. A County could shift it’s planning and permitting from L.U.R.C., to the State man…ah, growth management statues. It’s the statues that now, ah, are used by municipalities. To those that say, ‘Why a role for the County?’ My response is: ‘It only will occur, if we in State government have failed.’ Yes, I do believe, ahmm, (clears throat.) We have the strategies to do a very good job for these neglected constituencies. The Counties will never, ah, consider using the, ah…we do such a good job, that Counties will never consider using an ‘opt-out.’ Yet, without something of substance in the law, to hold our feet to the fire, I see nothing in current law that would prevent L.U.R.C. from perpetuating it’s deficiencies. Finally, there is much to celebrate and preserve about L.U.R.C.. L.D. 1798 does all that; and it also addresses the issue of poverty and living standards in the L.U.R.C., County for the first time. The issue of poverty is conveyed in the attached map, from today’s U.S. Today … U.S.A. Today. It shows that on a geographical basis, half of the most severe geographic poverty, among children and seniors in the eastern, ah, North Eastern United States, occurs in the L.U.R.C., Counties of Maine. And L.D. 1798, ah, addresses these sad realities. ‘Tweet it,’ revise it, whatever; but do not jeopardize the principles embodied in L.D. 1798. Without L.D. 1978, (Note to readers, this time he did say ‘L.D. 1978, that wasn’t a typo.) I believe there will be an elemental loss in Maine rural way of life and core values’ we cherish. Thank you very much.”
Unidentified Voice : “Thank, Thank you. Any questions of Mr. Beardsley? Representative McCabe.”
Representative McCabe : “Thank you Commissioner Beardsley. Thank you for the work on this and in-between of…during the ‘off-time.’ My question is in regards to the ‘opt-out,’ and , and just that ‘piece about,’ holding the feet to the fire. Ahmm…and the other section of the bill, that has to do with the reporting back to the A.C.F. committee. Ahmm, I’m curious if there’s a way to strengthen that. So, there is more ‘checks and balances,’ to/ as Commissar Gardiner said, to keep L.U.R.C., on the track; versus ort of this threat, of the ‘opt-out.’ And there’s people that feel like that’s sort of a ‘Nuclear Option,’ or it’s out there hanging over, this new L.U.R.C.. I, I, I think there probably are there. It’s difficult, because those people don’t ever apply. Those people that feel discouraged. Those people that feel marginalized. Those are the kind of (Note to readers: jumbled words that sound like : Officials.)…people that, don’t always get caught in the report. So, we can do reports on how fast and how many, and…or, how many were rejected once they started; but it’s that other element that’s also in there. And I think the challenge that you, and I and others would have, would be to, ah; find ways to incorporate that and then we could probably do a much better job.”
Unidentified Voice : “Sure, and you know it’s interesting that you included the, ah, charts on poverty. Because the recent, ah, information we received was Washington County, and Somerset County. And I think if you look at Somerset, they’re actually one of the ‘U.T.’s’ that’s probably growing in population; but yet, they have a higher than, you know, average poverty rate. So, I think there is something, statistically speaking.”
Commissioner Beardsley : “Oh, oh, I agree, but it’s a characteristic that, that I think we ah, hope to address.”
Unidentified Voice : “O.K., thank you Commissar. Ah, one other question; Senator Schneider.”
Senator Schneider : “Thank you, Mr. Chair. Ummm… Commissar, with the charts, are you suggesting that by changing this, Ummm…the, the L.U.R.C., to this particular mechanism, is somehow going to change the poverty level in, in the L.U.R.C., Durr…jurisdiction?”
Commissioner Beardsley : “Ah, yes. I, I sincerely believe that natural resources…we can have a 21st Century natural resource economy. Where real revitalization of northern half of Maine and the L.U.R.C., area’s can occur. I’m…we’re committed to that in our department. Ah, and I think, ah, eco-tourism and conservation are on integral part of that. Ah, but I think that we, errr…you know, we have got to, ah, modify L.U.R.C., it’s a barrier. I mean, it doesn’t it does nothing in Nerk…L.U.R.C.’s status and missions says anything about economic development, economic vitality, poverty, any of that stuff. And, so, I simply say we got to codify that in there…”
Senator Schneider : “MM-Hun.”
Commissioner Beardsley : “…Ah, and then I think we can errr… we got wonderful planners. Ah, ah, with that kind of direction and guidance, ah, we, ah, can, can make a lot of headway.”
Unidentified Chairman : “O.K., thanks.”
Senator Schneider : “I have a follow up.”
Unidentified Chairman : “Follow up.”
Senator Schneider : “So, because of what, Ummm…Ms. McLean said earlier; are you saying that the administration sees this, not as a planning board, but as an economic development tool, ah…That, that, their function will be more about economic development than, than as a municipal planning board, which, which, oversees planning. Is that what you’re?...I mean…”
Commissioner Beardsley : “I think, I think, planning has raised the heart of economic development and conservation, ah, ecology; all of those things. My feeling is that, that’s what planning does; That’s what municipal planning does. That what rural planning, that I’ve been involved in Alaska and Vermont do. We plan and incorporate this. Where do you want your economic development? Where do you want processing? Where do you want to protect and preserve? Things of intrinsic value and so, to me, planners should be looking at all elements of that. And that’s what the zones and the plans and the comprehensive plan are all about.”
Senator Schneider : “Thank you.”
Unidentified Chair : “Thank you, Thank you very much. Ah, we appreciate the questions. I think you’ll be available for work shop, and maybe follow up on some of those.”
Commissioner Beardsley : “Yes Sir.”
Unidentified Chair : “Ah, we like to get to the general public, if we can. We have one more Commissar. Ah, Patricia Aho…ah, come up. Ah, and then we’ll start. We’ll re-read the list. I think we had a list of opponents, and I hope they’re all sitting in here.”
Unidentified Voice : “Yeah, ah, Mr. Chairman, after Commissar Aho, there are four people; that because of travel distance, that we will…we promised to get in here, ah but…”
Unidentified Chairman : “Down a hundred miles?”
Unidentified Voice : “yeah, Jonna Reese from Oxford. Roger Heck from, ah, Lee. Stephanie, she must be a Doctor; I can’t read her last name, from Carroll. We’re and also, ah, Lisa Hunt from…it’s not near Vegas, but…It’s from where?”
Lisa Hunt : “New Castle, sir. But I have to run.”
Unidentified Voice : “O.K.. You, you have time to, if you’re number four on this list, or do you have to leave?”
Lisa Hunt : (Note to readers: Inaudible on tape recorder.)
Unidentified Voice : “O.K.. Your next in line.”
Unidentified Chair : “O.K., the ten minute thing.”
(Note to readers : More deliberations between Committee and audience members.)
Unidentified Chair : “O.K….Commissar Aho.”
Commissioner Patricia Aho
Commissioner Aho : “Thank you very much. Senator Sherman, Representative Edgecomb, members of the Committee; I’m Patricia Aho. I’m the Commissar of the Maine Department of Environmental Protection; and in consideration to the people who have come so long distances, I will be very brief. I also apologize that my written testimony contains errors, which will be corrected; and we will make sure you’ll have written testimony from us, by tomorrow. Again, I apologize for those errors. We are speaking in support of the provisions in the bill; that propose to move some of the land use permitting from the L.U.R.C., processee’s, (Note to readers: That isn’t how the word is spelled and that is not how it is supposed to be pronounced.) over to the Department of Environmental Protection processee’s. As you know, the bill proposes projects, such as, the large scale, Wind-Energy developments; in the expedited areas. As well as, the small scale wind energy projects be moved over to the D.E.P.. Other projects that are large in nature, that are, ah, considered under the site location of development act; those projects would also be transitioned over to the Department of Environmental Protection. Excepted from these, would be certain force practices, as well as certain, ah, developments that are within planned
sub-districts in L.U.R.C.. We are, ah, proceeding in discussions with the L.U.R.C., staff; and I’d like to thank them very much for their expertise. Because, we want to make sure that this transition is as seamless as possible. Because we believe, that the proposals provide for a unified and streamlined land use permitting process in the State of Maine; and that is our goal for all of you. We also want to make sure, as I said, that this is as efficient and effective transition for staff; both at L.U.R.C., as well as, the Department of Environmental Protection. And as you heard earlier, the administration has indicated to make sure those, ah, resources that are necessary to make this transition are also, ah, undertaken as well. We will have some minor, ah, technical clarifications, in regards to the language; that is necessary to make these particular transitions on the land use permitting. We are working on that and we’ll have that for the committee and your analysts well before the work session in regards to that. Again, I think we can undertake this work. We look forward to undertaking this work, and working with the L.U.R.C. staff and their experienced, ah, personal that are there right now. And again, we support these provisions because, we believe that it does allow for an efficient land use permitting process, while we also protect our environment and natural resources. We will be here at the work session, for all of your questions in regards to these particular provisions that will be before you, ah, during your deliberations. And I thank you very much for the consideration of the time. And again my apology, I’ll make sure our written, ah, information without the errors is presented to you as shortly as we can. Thank you.”
Unidentified Voice : “Thank you Commissioner. So, I heard you’ll be available. So if we had some questions, maybe they, could be…”
Commissioner Patricia Aho : “Absolutely.”
Unidentified Voice : “…Give them to you in writing before.”
Carlisle Mclean on L.U.R.C.
Commissioner Bill Beardsley on L.U.R.C.
Commisioner Patricia Aho on L.U.R.C.
Kevin Roach
Don Meagher
Susan Johannesman
Carlisle Mclean and George McDonald Part 1
5th Edition posted June 2015
The following are add-ons for the 5th edition:
The Missing Interviews of Cindy Sullivan and John McKibbon
L.D. 879
Richard Roy (or sounds like that on the tape recording.)
Unidentified Woman
For L.D. 1671
(East-West Highway/ D.O.T. committee.)
Senator Roger Sherman
Represen6Beth Turner
Jonathan Nass
Bruce Van Note
Jennifer Mills
John Melrose
John Williams
Ben Yeoman
Tim Doyle
Steve Perry
Against L.D. 1671
Anthony Dunn
Bob Weingarten
Jody Spear
Jenny Gray
Dave Wood
Benjamin Marriner Pratt
Christine (Inaudible last name.)
Neither for nor Against L.D. 1671
Bob Net
Denise Pantella
4th Edition posted April 2015
Bill Armstrong
3rd Edition posted September 2012
3rd edition add on's by order of Appearence:
L.D. 1671:
State Senator Doug Thomas
Second half of Will Neils public comment.
Diane Messer
Sonia Acevedo
Doug Papa
Other matterial :
Chris Buchanan handout to D.O.T. committee on L.D. 1671's work session, while L.U.R.C. was being covered.
Stephanie Itchkawich on L.U.R.C.
Hillary Lister Interview gathering signatures for O.P.E.G.A. investigation.
Lisa Hunt on L.U.R.C.
Hillary Lister interview on missing D.O.T. 1999 study on the proposed 'East-West Highway."
2nd editon posted August 2012
2nd edition add-ons:
Chris Buchanan 2nd half of talkinig to television reporters.
Interview with Jim Freeman
Interview with Diane Messer
Interview with Chris Buchanan
Note to readers:
3rd edition will be posted in September.
It will feature the second half of Will Neils
public comment on L.D. 1671
concerning the proposed
'East-West Highway.'
Along with more that took place that day.
1st edition of Preview for the Occupy Augusta Interviews Posted July 2012.
Not all interviews are completed and more public comments at the State House Committee meetings are awaiting to be added.
This is The Occupy Augusta Interviews Part 5 - The final chapter. The Interviews start with George MacDonald and took place the day after the Jim Freeman interview that was published in Part 4. These interviews take place from January 2012 and end on March 20th 2012 at a rally at the Maine State House. (For the record, Part 5 has never appeared in ArchEnemys online magazine. Hence, the long length of this last part.)
E Mail to Peter to forward to Samantha Depoy-Warren :
To: peter.j.rogers@maine.gov
Subject: Please forward this e mail to Samantha DePoy-Warren, at the Department of Environmental Protection
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 14:18:49 -0500
My name is Doug Papa and I have been writing a series for ArchEnemys online magazine called the Occupy Augusta Interviews. Below are either statements that have been published so far or statements that have been covered for part Four. If you can either state “No comment, I don’t know that information,” or, provide information in response to what has been said that would be great.
In part Two b Nancy Oden said:
Oh, by the way, the head of the (Maine) D.E.P. that was proposed to him…you know for a guy who gets to be governor who hasn’t been in politics of Augusta, they don’t know these people. But, Pattie Aho. Patricia Aho, who is the Commissioner, of the (Maine) Department of Environmental Protection, appointed by him, after the first one he appointed there was some conflict of interest. She was for years, an attack Lawyer for…I’m trying to remember the name of the Portland Law Firm she was with. Anyway, she was an attack Lawyer against activists and for the dumps. That’s what she did. For years. So she gets appointed to head up the (Maine,) Department of Environmental Protection. Which again, is another thing that’s extremely ludicrous."
Q : “I don’t mean to cut you off. Did you say she was actually a Lawyer for the Dumps?”
A : “She was a, yes. She was a Lawyer for the Law Firm…I can’t think of it. It’s on the Web. You can look her up. She was a Lawyer for years for this Portland Law Firm, that was the legal counsel and fought us activists, on dump sites. That’s what she did. For years. I ought to know. 22 years ago she was here in Washington County on the wrong side of a Dump fight, which I lead for three years. With a dump that was proposed for Township 30. Way out in the woods. They thought we were stupid and wouldn’t understand what it was, and what they wanted to do. And behind it all were the guys from New Jersey. O.K.? That’s who the company really was. They had a couple of ‘stooges,’ from Maine who were their front men. But, she was in there against us, against the people of Washington County fighting. She wasn’t the only one. There was a whole bunch of Lawyers, that the bad guys had…”
She also said:
But any way, the Head of the (Maine,) D.E.P. was an attack dog Lawyer working for Dumpers and Garbage Dumpers before she got appointed to head up the (Maine’s) Department of Environmental Protection. You can look up on the website. Just look her up on your Maine.gov. And look up D.E.P. and look her up, you know, and you can get the name of the Law Firm, which I can’t remember.
Later she identified that Law Firm as Pierce Atwood. She also went onto to say:
“…the big dump proposal for Township 30, that we fought back 20 years ago. We beat them out of here. They spent 3 ½ Million dollars and $75,000 all collected from the people of Washington County and we kept them out of here. But it was a trouble for 3 whole entire years of my life! About 3. 24 hours a day.”
Subject: Maine DEP questions
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 15:52:17 -0500
From: Samantha.DePoy-Warren@maine.gov
CC: Peter.J.Rogers@maine.gov
Doug,
Peter Roberts in the Governor’s Office forwarded me your email.
There weren’t any questions in there, so there is nothing to respond to. I’ll reiterate what I said on the phone and that is that the department is not prepared to talk about the public benefit determination application for Juniper Ridge until we issue our determination on January 31, at which point we’ll release a statement.
As for your questions about Commissioner Patricia Aho, she has been an attorney, though she was not at Pierce Atwood at the time Ms. Oden is referencing, for nearly three decades and in that work, served a variety of clients. I’ll again reiterate what I said on the phone and that is that Commissioner Aho has served our state at the forefront of environmental advocacy for over 25 years, working each day to do exactly what she does at the department today and that is to further a strong and healthy environment and a robust and sustainable economy. The Legislature’s decision to confirm her appointment as Commissioner by Governor LePage was unanimous and that speaks to the reputation for integrity, leadership and balance that the Commissioner has come to be regarded for here in Maine.
If you are interested in learning more about the Commissioner, I’d refer you to this profile published recently in the Maine Today Media papers: http://www.pressherald.com/news/DEP-chief-strives-for-striking-balance--.html, as well as the Commissioner’s bio (which I’ve also pasted below) on our website: http://www.maine.gov/dep/commissioners-office/aho_bio.html.
Hope that’s helpful.
Best,
Sam
Patricia W. Aho, Commissioner
Commissioner Pattie Aho, a native of Boothbay Harbor who graduated from Nasson College and earned a law degree from Western New England College, has been in the forefront of environmental advocacy for over 25 years and has been active on many of the critical issues facing Maine, including energy efficiency, greenhouse gas and petroleum regulation. Admitted to the Maine Bar, she most recently served as an attorney at Pierce Atwood and is Maine DEP’s primary liaison with both the Maine Legislature and the Governor’s Office, as well as representing the agency on several state and regional committees, including the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (RGGI).
Pattie lives in Newcastle with her husband, Ron, and has a lengthy commitment to community service, having served on town boards and committees in both Boothbay Harbor and Newcastle and on the boards of the Lincoln County Community Theater and Orchestra and the Maine Tourism Association. She has also been honored with the prestigious Athena Award from the Kennebec County Chamber of Commerce for her advocacy on behalf of the business community.
------------------------------------
Samantha DePoy-Warren
Spokesperson/Director of Communications & Education
Maine Department of Environmental Protection
Subject: e mail to you/ preview of Part 5
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:43:58 -0500
From: Peter.J.Rogers@maine.gov
Hi Doug,
I spoke with Sam again reference the story. Sam tells me she has been open to answering any specific questions about the department and its purview that you provided but cannot go point-counterpoint for 4500 words due to time constraints. She feels for you to allege that the department is censoring information or saying you could not ask certain questions is simply false. She feels she did provide you a statement on the Commissioner.
Peter
Email sent to Peter Rodgers to Forward to the Director of Maine Fish and Wildlife for an e mail reponse before she resigned:
To: peter.j.rogers@maine.gov
Subject: e mail for Edie Smith Maine inland fish and wildlife.
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 11:12:45 -0500
Nancy : “…That there’s a warning in the front of the book that the Maine Fish and Wildlife Department hands out to fishermen with all the rules on fish. It’s basically, ‘Don’t eat the fish in Maine’s Lakes, Rivers, Streams,’ and so on. Pregnant women not at all. Adult men, maybe once a week. Certain species that shouldn’t be eaten at all. And because they have Dioxins and other dangerous chemicals in them. And incinerators, when they burn, regular garbage, -everybody throws things in the garbage. Most people still don’t recycle. Disgusting as that sounds, it hasn’t been made easy enough for them yet. When you burn plastics in particular, that synthesizes Dioxins being released and they tell you that: ‘Oh, we capture the ash before it goes out the Chimney.’ Yes, they capture the visible part of the ash. But minute particles get through. Of course they do. And they float out onto the land. Onto Farmland. People breath them in. And those minute particles contain not only Dioxins, but, heavy metals which never go away. Like lead and Arsenic, and Mercury. Such that all of this over the years has landed in our Lakes. Not just incinerators in Maine, but incinerators in the Mid-West. Which have really tall chimneys. So that it blows into the atmospheric winds and ends up here, because we are called ‘the tailpipe.’ A lot of it ends up here. So our Lakes, Rivers, Streams and Coastal waters have Dioxins, heavy metals, pesticides and all sorts of things that are released by burning people’s garbage. And that is the worst of it of course. There’s ash that sometimes blows. The chimney blows and the ‘fly ash,’ which is the stuff at the top, that’s really the toxic stuff, blows our all over the communities that they are in.
E Mail sent to Peter Rogers to forward to Ken Flecter at the Maine Department of Energy for an e mail response :
To: peter.j.rogers@maine.gov
Subject: e mail for Ken Flecter department of energy
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 11:18:19 -0500
A : “Maine produces 30% more power than we use. All the wind generations. Almost all of the Industrial wind is going out of State, and none of it stays in state. Except for Rollins, which is up in Lincoln. So we’re all opposed to that too. Because, that’s another corporate scam.
A : "That's a great way of putting it. Having Maine as a resource colony. they just replaced this huge 245,000 Volt sub-station in Benton, with a like 120,000 Volt...I'm not sure of the number of volts. They are claiming Maine isn't producing enough energy. They are claiming Maine is not making enough energy in the Legislator. They are replacing a sub-station with one that uses less power. they are not using that much power, because there are no jobs that are using the power. In Benton, I'm not sure if that substation covers 3 or 4 Counties."
E Mail to Peter Rogers to forward to Maine Pesticides Control Board for e mail response:
To: peter.j.rogers@maine.gov
Subject: last email. This one is for Pesticide control board.
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 11:21:43 -0500
‘I.e. : so called Wild Blueberry growers. Those blueberries are not wild. They burn them. They spray them. They take the rocks off. They are no more ‘wild,’ than a sprayed strawberry field, for one thing. So what people hate is the pesticides. They know the reason people in Washington and Hancock and Waldo Counties have large amounts of Cancer is because, of the Poisons that are sprayed ‘willy-nilly,’ practically every year. And we know that and people hate them. But they don’t know what they can do. Now I’ve tried Petitions and have ruled petitions in front of the Pesticide Control Board. Which every member of the Pesticide Control Board, there about a dozen of them, they are appointed by the Governor. And they all have connections to the Chemical Industry. Including the University. And they have a small staff which ‘kowtows,’ to them, because they can get fire them at any time. The only reason they exist, is to let the Chemical companies come in and say: “ O.K.. We now need to test this poison and that poison.’ And they say: ‘Yes.’ They never say, ‘no,’ to any pesticide. Even those that have been banned by other countries, and other parts of the World and Canada. They had never banned one. And so, that’s one whole area of expertise that I’ve worked on and still am for about 30 years on that one. It’s a matter of trying to get other regular people to speak out and show up at hearings and express their anger and discontent at these very things.’
Email from Maine Pesticides Control Board, sent before Peter Rodgers left his post and Adrienne communicated with me.
Hi Doug,
Sorry I didn’t get back to you last week regarding the interview comments. I will contact you as soon as I hear back from the Governor’s office.
Thanks,
Paul
Paul Schlein
Public Education Specialist
Maine Board of Pesticides Control
28 State House Station
Augusta ME 04333-0028
207-287-2731 Phone
207-287-7548 Fax
http://www.thinkfirstspraylast.org
E Mail to Adrienne Bennett Governor Paul LePage's Press Secretary:
This is the e mail you wanted me to send about setting up a time next week about how your office is now going to be interacting with myself due to the online magazine I conduct interviews with and about the State departments I interact with. Just a reminder. I only need interviews with the Maine Department of Environmental Protection to set the record straight on their end on what has been said about them so far in the Occupy Augusta Interviews. I also need Paul over at the Maine Pesticide Control Board to make a statement about the Statement Nancy Oden said about his department and Ken Fletcher at the Maine Department of Energy to comment about how Energy is being exported out of state and I'm done. (I realize that the Commissioner of the Maine State Police would not want to make a comment at all and that's alright.)
If your office does not want me to try and get any more interviews with the last three that I need, that's alright. I got enough e mails from the Department of Environmental Protection and the Maine Pesticide Control Board to place in Part five of the Occupy Augusta Interviews with a disclaimer of being shut off with further interaction with State Departments. If you wish to talk about myself not being able to interview State Representives and State Senators, then yes, we can set up a meeting. If you just need to confirm what I have already stated in this e mail you can save yourself some time and just send an email to confirm that our co-operation will be coming to an end. I understand if the format of ArchEnemys online magazine has people feel uncomfortable to invest the time to conduct great interviews like George MacDonald gave at the State Planning Office.
I do want to say the Peter Rogers was great in trying to set up interviews with the remainding 3 department representives that I mentioned in the first paragraph. I do wish him the best as the new Director of the State Planning Office. I am sorry that the other Director of the State Planning Office was arrested for drunk driving and had to leave his office top be replace by Peter who was planning on resigning from State Government and had a few days left on his notice as Governor LePage's Communications Director.
Well I believe with all the e mails I sent Peter and he told me, two days ago that he forwarded those emails to you, that a pretty clear picture is presented on what will be printed about Samantha over at D.E.P.. Sorry it couldn't be salvage, but I did make the effort to provide her the opportunity to do so. I understand if Peter and Ken don't want to say anything in their defense, if they have nothing to say in thier departments defense. If you still want to see me in a face to face meeting next week, that's great. If not, because I've covered everything in this email, that's fine. I'll just reprint this in part 5 of the Occupy Augusta Interviews so our readers will know why I don't have the freedom to confirm anything anymore from State of Maine Governmental Departments. This way if you no longer want me knocking on your office door again, I won't. If there is anything else like talking to the House Democratic or Republic press secretary's or anything else, feel free to send it in an email. Again, there is only a few State Representives and Senators that I need to talk to get interviews with at this point. If I missed anything just include it in your email to confirm you got this.
Thank You
Doug Papa
Dear Sean Mahoney, Vice President and Director of Conservation Law Foundation Maine.
I was on an internet search engine for the key words: “Pattie Aho Attack dog lawyer for the dumps Maine D.E.P. and came across your blog. It was tagged “Clean Water Act.” The title was
Failure to Act: Letter to Patricia Aho, Commissioner Maine D.E.P. This was posted on Jan. 4, 2012.
I would like to ask your permission to print this entire introduction and letter as posted on your blog for our readers to see. I am not asking for a just a link, but for the entire exact words to be reprinted. In exchange you can use whatever I have and will print in the future of the “Occupy Augusta,” Interviews. I would also like to request any and all information directly or indirectly related to the series I’m doing to be reprinted word for word on the online magazine covering this political drama.
Thank You,
Doug Papa
Owner of Music Trade Magazine.com
Reporting on behalf of one of our advertisers,
ArchEnemys online Magazine
Email recieved from Sean Mahoney
Doug – here is letter sent to DEP as well as one sent to FERC.
Sean
Patricia Aho, Commissioner January 3, 2012
Maine Department of Environmental Protection
17 State House Station
Augusta, ME 04333-0017
Re: Flagstaff Storage Project #L-19313-32-G-N
Dear Commissioner Aho:
We have finished a review of records provided by your Department pursuant to a December 9,
2011, Freedom of Access Act request from our organization, the Conservation Law Foundation.
That review leads us to conclude that the Department, under your direction, intentionally waived
the State’s rights under section 401 of the Clean Water Act, 33 U.S.C. § 1341(a), to certify that
the relicensing of Florida Power & Light’s Flagstaff Storage Project meets Maine’s water quality
standards. That conclusion is contrary to the assertions of the Department’s spokeswoman, Ms.
DePoy-Warren, who publicly stated that the failure to act in a timely manner on the FPL
application was neither intentional nor insidious. While we will never definitively know about
the latter, as set forth below, we believe the failure to act was certainly intentional.
As you know, for the past several years, a new license for the Flagstaff Storage Project, #L-
19313-32-G-N, had been stayed by FERC based on the denial of the Section 401 water quality
certification by the Board of Environmental Protection in 2004, a decision appealed and upheld
by the Maine Law Court in 2007. Since then, FPL had filed an application for a water quality
certification for the Flagstaff Storage Project as a placeholder while it worked with the
Department staff to identify a means to meet the water quality standards identified by the Board
in its original order. The Clean Water Act provides that if an application for water quality
certification is not acted upon within a year of its submittal, the State is deemed to waive its right
to make or to withhold such a certification. To avoid such a waiver, the Department’s practice
had been to request FPL to withdraw and refile the application. Failing that, the Department
would deny the application. FPL, as it had with its other hydroelectric projects, would withdraw
its application for this project and then re-file, thereby “re-starting the clock.” (This is a practice
followed not just by FPL but by most other owners of hydropower projects seeking water quality
certification from Maine.) Thus, FPL filed its water quality certification application for the
Flagstaff Storage Project with the Department on November 15, 2009, then withdrew and refiled
its application on November 16, 2010.
As you also know, action by the Department on water quality certifications applications had for
many years been coordinated by a longtime Department employee, Dana Murch. Mr. Murch
announced that he would retire at the end of the summer in 2011 and documents produced in
response to our FOAA request establish that he began preparing for the transfer of his
responsibilities to other employees at the Department in early summer. Specifically, in June, Mr.
Murch and senior managers at the Department, including Michael Mullen, current head of the
Department’s Land and Water Bureau, scheduled a series of meetings to discuss the transition of
his work load. These meetings specifically included discussion of the Flagstaff Storage Project
water quality certification application. Indeed, Mr Murch prepared a memorandum to the file
dated July 13, 2011, concerning the history and status of the Flagstaff Storage Project and
specifically noting that “Unless DEP acts to approve or deny the pending application for water
quality certification on or before November 15, 2011, certification will be deemed waived by
operation of law.”
On June 17, 2011, you were named acting Commissioner of the Department, subsequently
nominated to take that position permanently on September 9, 2011 and confirmed on September
28, 2011 by the Senate. The documents produced by the Department in response to our FOAA
request establish that shortly after you were named acting Commissioner, Pierce Atwood’s Matt
Manahan, a partner at your former law firm and FPL’s attorney, contacted you to discuss FPL’s
Flagstaff and Brassua Storage Projects and requested a meeting with you, Mr. Murch and
representatives of FPL. A meeting that you organized was set for August 5, 2011 at your office.
On the following Monday, August 8, 2011, you sent an email to Mr. Mullen (delivered at 8:11
a.m. and read at 8:40 a.m.) stating the following – “Hi Mike – We need to talk about Flagstaff
and Brassawa [sic] when you get a chance. Thanks! Pattie.”
A subsequent memorandum from Mr. Murch dated August 12, 2011 to DEP staff, including Mr.
Mullen (who was by then overseeing all staffing of hydropower projects for the Department)
attached a spreadsheet that listed the staff that would be overseeing the various hydropower
projects in the state. Ms. Dawn Hallowell was listed as being responsible for the Flagstaff
Storage Project but it is our understanding that, at the direction of the Commissioner’s office,
Ms. Hallowell never received that file.
Thus, by the time that Mr. Murch retired on August 31, 2011, the documents strongly support the
following: you had been briefed on the status of the water quality certification application for the
Flagstaff Storage Project by the applicant and its attorney and had met with Mr. Mullen, the head
of the lead bureau on that application; and that you and your staff were aware of the options
available to the State with respect to the application. This makes Ms. DuPoy-Warren’s
statements of December 9, 2011 that the failure to act on the application in a timely manner was
due to reorganization efforts and changed assignments at best completely uninformed and at
worst deliberately false.
Even more troubling is the conclusion one can logically draw that after you met with the FPL
and its attorney, you made the decision to not act on the application and thereby waive the
State’s rights to certify whether the Flagstaff Storage Project’s new license meets our water
quality standards. While the Department is legally authorized to make such a decision under the
Clean Water Act, the manner in which this decision was made, particularly after the State had
invested significant resources over the last 7 years in defending the right to determine when a
project does or does not meet our water quality standards, and the subsequent response by the
Department when the waiver came to light, is unacceptable.
We feel strongly that the documents we have seen to date support our conclusion. If, however,
we have not reviewed all of the relevant documents or there are other facts we are not aware of,
we would be most interested in meeting with you to discuss them. If we are wrong and this was
indeed a case of a blown deadline, then the Department should be aggressively acting to ensure
that FERC condition the license for the Flagstaff Storage Project to ensure that Maine’s water
quality standards are met and instituting procedures to prevent such failures in the future. If our
current understanding of the situation does not change, we believe that at a minimum you should
clarify that the Department decision to waive its rights to determine if the Flagstaff Storage
Project met Maine’s water quality standards was in fact intentional and should include an
apology to the stakeholders who were counting on the State to exercise its rights under the Clean
Water Act.
Respectfully,
Sean Mahoney
Vice President and Director
CLF Maine
cc: Peter J. Carney
The following is a reprinted email with the official logo of the United States Environmental Protection Agency Stamped onto the e mail.
Thanks to the C.F.L. for sending this along with permission to reprint an Open letter to Patricia Aho.
UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
Region 1
5 Post Office Square, Suite 100
Boston, Ma 02109-3912
Via E-File
January 4, 2012
Kimberly D. Bose, Secretary
Federal Energy Regulatory Commission
888 First Street, NE
Washington, DC 20426
Reference: FERC #2612-019 Flagstaff Storage Project
Dear Ms. Bose:
This letter is in response to the recent waiver of Maine’s Section 401 authority for the Flagstaff Project license. The waiver was the result of the Maine Department of Environmental Protection’s (“DEP”) failure to act to either approve or deny the pending application for water quality certification on or before November 15, 2011. A Maine DEP spokesperson reported that DEP “lost sight” of the Flagstaff issue because of recent staffing changes. EPA has a strong interest in ensuring that the hydropower project is licensed and operated in a manner that is consistent with federal and state environmental requirements, including state water quality standards. Given the important water quality standards issues associated with this project, summarized below, EPA requests that the license stay be continues until a proper evaluation under the appropriate state water quality standards has been conducted.
EPA has been involved in the environmental reviews of the Flagstaff Project since at least 1995, when the original owner of the project requested water quality certification. In those and subsequent comments to the project applicant, ME DEP, and the Federal Regulatory Commission (“FERC)1, EPA has repeatedly raised concerns over the project’s impacts on aquatic life, including cold water fisheries; wetlands and wildlife;
________________________
1 EPA comment letters include 9/18/95 comments to Central Maine Power on Initial Document; 1/15/1998 comments to FERC on Draft Environmental Assessment; and 11/10/ 2003 comments to Maine DEP on Draft Water Quality Certification.
(End of page 1.)
Mercury levels; downstream uses (Dead River); and recreational flow releases. As EPA understands the water quality certification history of the project2, each year from 1996 through 2002, Maine DEP requested that the owner withdraw and refile the certification request based on an evaluation that excessive lake drawdowns (24 feet and more) would result in the violation of Maine’s water quality standards for aquatic life and habitat. On November 14, 2003, Maine DEP issued a water quality certification, at odds with longstanding DEP staff evaluations and recommendations which have been well documented since 1993.3 the certification was subsequently to the Maine Board of Environmental Protection.
EPA’s December 22, 2003 letter to the Board of Environmental Protection regarding DEP’s 2003 water quality certification for Flagstaff points out that the application of criteria that are less stringent than are necessary to protect the Clean Water Act goal uses must be preceded by a Use Attainability Analysis (UAA) that evaluates and supports such an action. A UAA involves the assessment of alternatives and their costs that (1) provide for use attainment without a downgrade of designated uses, or (2) provide the highest level of use attainment feasible, if a downgrade appears justified. The UAA may be used as the supporting basis to remove or lower a designated use (or adopt less protective criteria) if the analysis demonstrates that attaining the designated use is not feasible due to one or more or the factors at 40 C.F.R. (Note to readers-fancy symbol for subsection appears here.) 131.10(g). A UAA for a hydropower project would include the evaluation of a variety of operating scenarios to determine which alternatives can provide the highest feasible level of use attainment for a particular designated use. Economic and social factors may also be included in the evaluation of what use attainment is feasible. EPA also explained that a UAA in the case of Flagstaff Lake would not need to focus on whether it is possible to attain a “natural” aquatic habitat. Rather, the UAA would focus on the attainability of the Class C criteria, which allow for some change from natural habitat.
The Maine Board of Environmental Protection, in part citing information provided by EPA, denied the Flagstaff water quality certification in July 2004 without prejudice. The Board found that the DEP should either obtain EPA approval of the recently enacted Resolves 2003, Chapter 37, or the applicant should conduct a UAA. This certification denial was upheld by the Maine Supreme Judicial Court on July 26, 2007. In a unanimous decision affirming the Board’s denial of water quality certification of the project, the Court found that that the Board’s action was “reasonable and entitled to
______________________________
2 111 FERC (Note to readers backwards fancy “P” symbol here.) 61,104
3 References: (1) ME DEP/WB internal memo dated May 11, 1993. (2) ME DEP/DEA internal memo dated September 25, 1995. 3)ME DEP letter to CMP dated November 7, 1995. 4)ME DEP/DEA letter to CMP dated February 14, 1997. (5) ME DEP/DEA internal memo dated November 6, 2003.
(End of page 2.)
deference.” (On July 30, 2007 Maine DEP e-filed a copy of the Courts decision and an explanatory letter with FERC and the service list for the Flagstaff project.4)
In November 2009 FPL Energy Maine Hydro LLC (FPL Energy) filed a new application for water quality certification. DEP reviewed the application and stated its position that the drawdown of Flagstaff Lake would have to be limited to about 8 feet to meet Maine’s existing, EPA approved, water quality standards for the lake. DEP advised the applicant that any drawdown in excess of this amount would require a UAA. On November 16, 2010 FPL Energy withdrew and refilled its pending 401 application, which established a new one year period for DEP to act.
FPL Energy (or its predecessor) has been aware of the need to do a UAA for over a decade. EPA has offered several times to assist the State and the company in a UAA effort. Based on correspondence between the DEP and the applicant in 2010, it appeared that movement was being made towards some resolution of the issues, before the DEP “lost sight” of Flagstaff’s water quality certification in 20115.
We believe that the recent waiver of water quality certification for the Flagstaff project would allow operation of the project in a way that is not consistent with Maine’s water quality standards, and is not consistent with Maine’s current inclusion of Flagstaff Lake on the State’s (Note to readers fancy symbol for subsection here.) 305 (b) list as an impaired water for aquatic life uses due to drawdowns. Absent a UAA which justifies the currently proposed drawdown regime of the Flagstaff Project, we believe that project operation as proposed would not be consistent with state water quality standards.
In the currently stayed Order issuing a New License for the Project (106 FERC fancy backwards “P” here 62,232) the Director of the FERC Office of Energy Projects concluded that the license as proposed, with the water quality certification conditions, staff recommendations and other conditions, will be best adapted for the comprehensive development of the project for beneficial public uses pursuant to the Federal Power Act. As discussed above, however, the Maine 401 certification relied on by FERC in its analysis pursuant to Sections 4(e) and 10(j) of the FPA was subsequently found to be inconsistent with Maine water quality standards. Hence, EPA believes that FERC should not lift the stay of the license but rather should reanalyze the project effects against the applicable water quality standards for the project, consistent with the Board of Environmental Protection’s articulation of the meaning of those standards in its denial of the 401 certification.
4 Letter to Kimberly Bose, Secretary FERC from Dana Murch, Maine DEP dated July 30, 2007.
5 Maine DEP letter to FPL dated November 17, 2010
(End of page 3)
Finally, it is important to note that the FERC licensing process is not, and cannot legally substitute for, a UAA under the Clean Water Act. Absent a UAA which justifies the currently proposed drawdown regime of the Flagstaff Project, we believe that project operation as proposed would not be consistent with state water quality standards. While the information developed pursuant to FERC’s process may be useful in a UAA evaluation, only the State has the statutory mandate to implement a UAA process and determine attainability of water quality standards, and only EPA has the authority to approve water quality standards amendments that result from a UAA.
If you have any questions about this letter, please contact me at (617) 918-1561, or Ralph Abele of my staff at (617) 918-1629.
Sincerely,
Stephen J. Silva, Chief
Water Quality Branch
cc. FERC service list
(End of page 4)
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I hereby certify that I will, within the timeframe and means established in 18 C.F.R. (Note to readers fancy symbol for subsection here.) 385.2010, serve the accompanying materials upon each person designated on the official service list compiled by the Secretary in this proceeding (P-2612), unless such person is no longer a representative of the party to be served, in which case I will serve the accompanying materials on an alternate representative of that party.
Dated at Boston, Massachusetts on January 4, 2012
Stephen J. Silva
Chief, Water Quality Branch
EPA-New England, Region 1
5 Post Office Square, Suite 100
Boston, MA 02109
(End of Email)
George MacDonald Interview Maine State Planning Office.
Q : “O.K., this is January 5th. I’m speaking with George MacDonald here at the State Planning Office. George I interviewed, Bob Duchesne from House District 13. I told Jim Freeman from the Occupy movement, whom I interviewed yesterday what he said, and Jim raised some interesting points. Now I’m first going to the Bob Duchesne interview. ‘He did share something he’s always wanted to do. I told him how you followed a dump truck without stopping at K.T.I. in Lewiston. He proposed having someone at the border taking down the numbers of the trucks and what time they arrive. Then having someone at the Entrance ramp, and if they show up three hours later, it’s probably a safe bet they didn’t stop at K.T.I.. I added the effect of catching it all on video camera.’
Jim Freemans response was: ‘It was not I. there is a few people that are doing that. They stopped at the first rest area when you come in Maine. The welcome to Maine, there’s a big rest area there. They’ve spotted trucks in there. They’ve talked to the drivers about going to Lewiston. The driver admitted: ‘I’m not going to Lewiston or Auburn. I’m going straight to West Old Town. Straight to Juniper Ridge.’
Since the State Planning Office is in charge of checking the trucks to make sure the processing has been done at K.T.I., how do you respond to that allegation?”
A : “I have been very aggressive in the past and tried to identify what is in the loads that are delivered to Juniper Ridge. A number of people have told me that there have been loads directly transported from out of State to Juniper Ridge. I’ve spoken with drivers. No one’s confirmed it. What we have at the Juniper Ridge, is a manifest form. I’m going to give you a copy of that now. Each load that comes into the Landfill, is required to complete this form and it identifies the types of waste and the source of the waste. And the driver has to identify by his signature that the above is true. I’ve talked to drivers. I’ve asked them and no one has admitted to me that the load has come directly from out of State. I’ve heard many rumors. I’ve spoken to the drivers. No one’s been able to confirm it. So that’s where it stands. If somebody has verifiable information, Please give it to me. I’ve spoken with the State Police about doing an audit. Doing a survey following trucks that come into the State and they’re willing to work with us, should there be an issue that we discover. No issue has been discovered to warrant putting those resources to work at this point and time. If anyone does have a video, I’d would be glad to see it, and in the operating services agreement, which Casella signed with the State to operate the Landfill: ‘Any waste generated outside the State is excluded as an acceptable waste at the Landfill.’ So if it came from out of State, there are in violation of their agreement. Which means they are in default of the agreement.”
Q : “Now when you said you spoke to the State Police was the Steve McCausland, or someone else?”
A : “No. It’s one of the Lieutenants, over here at the State headquarters.”
Q : “O.K., do you know which one it is?”
A : “I have to go back to my files.”
Q : “O.K.. I was just asking because Steve’s not returning my phone calls or replies…”
A : “No, it’s not Steve McCausland that I’ve been speaking with. I’ve been speaking with one of the traffic…Ummm…One of the State Police officers involved with Traffic Control in the State.”
Q : “O.K., and on a related subject, I told Jim Freeman the following: ‘I read a story. I can’t remember where. It said a woman lived very close to the Juniper Ridge Landfill. Her Daughter moved to Massachusetts and had $16,000 worth of Asbestos removed from her basement. When she asked the driver where it was going, he said: ‘Don’t worry, it’s going to Maine.’
It gets more interesting, because Jim Freeman gave an equally shocking reply. His reply was: ‘It is. As is a lot of other toxic chemicals. What I was told at one point is that they can dump 55 gallon drums of toxic chemicals into the back of the container, and just leave the back door open a little bit. And it just dribbles our along the Interstate and it just gets hard and evaporates, or it gets into the streams along the Interstate. That’s been happening, for a long time. It’s hard to prove. But again it happens.’ Whether this allegation is true or false, would the State Planning Office even consider finding out, through their oversight of the Juniper Ridge Landfill, to prove if it’s happening or not?”
A : “So…Let me understand what you’re saying here. Someone is saying that barrels of toxic chemicals are being allowed to drip onto the Maine Highways?”
Q : “Ah, Jim Freemans response was: ‘There’s a lot of toxic chemicals, and I was told at one point, they dump 55 gallon drums, of toxic chemicals into the back of the container. And then they leave the back door open a little bit, and it dribbles out along the Interstate. And it gets hard and evaporates or it gets into the streams along the Interstate. That’s what someone told Jim Freeman at one point.”
A : “Is there any proof to that?”
Q : “he did say, ‘it was very hard to prove.’ Ah, so again, whether this allegation is true or false, I don’t know. I’m not saying it’s true or false. I just have to basically interview people on what they say, and then try to verify that information; or get a response from other people. Because I’m completely neutral about this to be honest with you. I, I don’t…”
A : “O.K., yup, no, that’s fine. Ummm…you know if someone can actually prove that, that is happening, the appropriate agency to report to is Department of Environmental protection. That would be considered a toxic waste spill. They have a spill response team. They have a process in place. They have trained people to handle those situations. And if they should find someone who is violating the law, and that sounds like it’s a definite violation. They have the ability to prosecute. So that…If someone does know that’s happening and has veritable information, or proof, or strong suspicion, that such a thing is occurring; they should contact the Department of Environmental Protection Spill. They have a 1-800 number you can call and they’ll follow up on it.”
Q : “O.K..O.K.. I’ll take your word for it, because I tried contacting Pattie Aho about an interview and she hasn’t even returned my phone calls. I’m not even sure, (Laughs) if I would get a response to something like that.”
A : “You might wasn’t to try…ummm…looking at their website. They have a spill response number to call, and that might be a better number for you to try.”
Q : “O.K.. Well, it’s not me. It’s just our readers.”
A : “No, no. I just understand that, but the Commissioner is very busy, and maybe there’s someone down in the Department that can answer your question.”
Q : “O.K.. O.K.. And adding to that, another statement I made was: ‘According to our sources, Casella went into a 30 year contract with the state to the tune of $26 million dollars. It was based on the legal and regulatory environmental at the time. Now Casellas’ lawyers are preparing for a fight to keep the state from changing the rules that made the deal great in the first place. That’s if the state moves to restrict Construction Demolition debris. Now Jims’ response was: ‘Let them go to court, because we’re going to win this one. Because we can prove that it’s not really being recycled.’ How difficult would it be for the State Planning Office to either back up or disprove this statement?”
A : “I’m not really sure what his statement is.”
Q : “Ahh…Well, ‘Let Casella go to court,’ Ahh…’because we can…win this.’ Basically if Casella sues the State, Ahh…because they can…O.K., let me back up here. Another, statement I made was according to our sources Casella went into a 30 year contract with the state to the tune of $26 million dollars.”
A : “O.K…can we stop there?”
Q : “Sure.”
A : “Let’s address that. Yes, Casella did pay the State $26 million dollars for their right and privilege to operate the Juniper Ridge Landfill. That agreement is this (taps large 3 ring binder with each sheet in a plastic cover, making it inches in appearance. Maybe four or five inches by memory.) document there.”
Q : “O.K.. and if the rules change, I guess their lawyers are preparing for a fight to keep the state from changing the rules that made the deal great in the first place.”
A : “O.K.. I’m not sure what rules Casella’s attorneys are preparing to fight.”
Q : “Ah, ‘that the state moves to restrict construction demolition debris.’”
A : “O.K.. I’m not familiar with what the state maybe doing with that. Did he…This is Jim Freeman?”
Q : “Yeah, Ah, I guess there’s some legislature, that Bob Duchesne, also said, there is some that there’s some legislation that they’re going to make some moves to try and restrict Construction Demolition Debris coming into the state by making it A) Making it more expensive.”
A : “O.K..”
Q : “And, ah, other measures too. But they can’t do anything in this legislative period because all the bills are set. So it will have to be next year.”
A : “Oh, I didn’t know that. Ummm…I do know that this is a concern amount the amount of material going to K.T.I., from out of state. Ummm…what Casella is doing there is in accordance to D.E.P., rules and regulations, and the license they have. Casella has with D.E.P.. That is a waste wood processing facility. And they are required to accept material and process it, and produce at least a 50% recoverable recycling product. At least half of what comes in has to come out as recyclable or recoverable, and they’re able to do that. Because otherwise D.E.P. will pull their license. So, I can see from a business standpoint, Casella might be concerned about legislation impacting their business plan. But, beyond that, I’m not aware of any language that’s been drafted or presented, that would impact that operation.”
Q : “O.K..”
A : “So and again, you said it might be next session.”
Q : “Right. That’s what Bob said, and Jims’ response was, ah, basically: ‘If they do sue the state, let them go to court, because we’re going to win this one, because we can prove it’s not really being recycled.’ However, you know, I don’t know what Jims’, you know…”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “…evidence is and so forth. But my question to you is: ‘how difficult would it be for the State Planning Office to either back up, or disprove his statement.’ In other words, that statement you made about K.T.I., doing 50% of the recycling. How easy would it be to back up that statement?”
A : “Well, that is all data presented by the operation and confirmed by the reports they submit to D.E.P.. So it would be easy enough for us, to just say: ‘The numbers are, what the numbers are.’ And I know D.E.P. and their processing facility rules and regulations allow for ‘fine material,’ that’s too small to be burned in a bio-mass boiler. Which is the intended recipient of the processed wood. Wood that is too fine to be burned, is considered, ‘Alternative daily cover,’ at Juniper Ridge, and the rules for the processing facility consider that to be recycled. So, as long as they are able to meet that 50% threshold, which includes recovering the concrete and the metal, that’s included with the Construction/ Demo debris and the ‘fines.’ That’s an issue that has to be discussed, in relation to the rules and regulations of the Department.”
Q : “O.K., and my next question is, ah, now is it an incinerator burning at 2,000 degrees and higher at all times; or is it a boiler running at the same temperature? Ah, Jim Freeman said: ‘Most of the time, it’s not and it forms dioxins.’ Ah…I know Bob Duchesne says: ‘It’s not true. It’s actually running at 2,000 degrees, pretty much all of the time. So no dioxins form. Dioxins actually form at a lower temperature.’ But, that’s why I got the question. Because the people at the Penobscot Nation…Ah…the two people in charge of the …One’s in charge of the Water program…Ah…Quality Director, and the other was the Air Quality Director. They say, it’s a boiler. So, is it an incinerator, or is it a boiler, is it both?”
A : “Which facility is this?”
Q : “Ah…the one up in Old Town.”
A : “the one in Old Town is a bio-mass…Ah…operator. Operation. It’s, Ah, boiler operation. Ummm…. Wood is pumped carried by conveyer, into the boiler. Heat is recovered. Ummm…”
Q : “Is it burning at 2,000 degrees at all times?”
A : “I don’t know what the temperature is, that it’s burning at. I’m not involved in that aspect of the program up there. You can talk to someone at the Air Bureau at D.E.P., to find out. Because there is an Air emissions license for the bio-mass boiler up at the Old Town facility.”
Q : “O.K., that’s fair enough. Ah…Ralph Coffman stated at the meeting that took place at the Black Bear Inn. Were you at that meeing by any chance that took place?”
A : “ I was there.”
Q : “You were there?”
A : “Yes.”
Q : “And ah, he said, ‘ I saw test well that were underwater. And then the engineers said you can have 2 test wells 3 feet apart and if there is a fracture in the system, the two wells will not pick that up 3 feet apart.’ He also said: ‘It’s a swamp.’ I said that to Jim Freeman and he said: ‘You put wells 3 feet apart and it is a swamp, as he said. I’ve been in there before they even did the landfill. It’s a huge wetland, and it’s really close to the Alton Bog. It’s kind of a weird place in Maine. You don’t have bogs that size.’ If there are issues with the test wells being underwater in a swamp, how can it be in the public’s interest to expand it? Of even consider expanding it? I should say it the right way.”
A : “O.K., you’re talking about the Juniper Ridge Landfill?”
Q : “Yes.”
A : “You’re talking about test wells, within the property?”
Q : “Yes. Correct.”
A : “O.K.. I’m not aware…There are no test wells that I’m aware of, that are under water. Ummm….I go to the landfill on a regular basis. There is a stream that goes by the (sounds like he said ‘toe.’) of the landfill. We are back from that.”
Q : “Is it located in a swamp? Like these people are alleging?”
A : “The ah, I’m going to use my hands to describe.”
Q : “O.K..”
A : “The Juniper Ridge Landfill, is…on a Drummond. It’s a Geological formation. It’s a rounded, slightly rounded hill. And on the South and South West corner, of the Landfill there’s a stream, that runs by. It’s a very meandering slow stream, with boggy area on both sides. That is below where the landfill is. The landfill sits above that. The landfill hasn’t really been excavated into the soil. There’s been a slight depression made, but most of the landfill sits above normal ground. So, it’s not in the swamp itself. A lot of people are concerned that landfills are in swamps. We want landfills to be situated on soils that are tight. That don’t allow water to drain through. Because we don’t want ground water to be contaminated. If the landfill the landfill did leak, that’s a concern. That’s why we have a clay layer underneath the plastic liner, at the landfill. That’s why we have a leachate collection system, under that liner, to collect anything. So, I’m not quite sure where they are talking about, because I’m not aware of any wells, that are submerged…”
Q : “O.k., and…”
A : “I am not aware of the landfill actually being in the swamp either. Because we can’t. It’s back away from that.”
Q : “O.K.. Ah, well I guess he said in a swamp. But the other point was: ‘If two test wells are 3 feet apart and there is a fracture in the system, the tow wells will not pick it up.’ Have you had any complaints about that?”
A : “No. No one has raised that issue to me. I’m not a ground water specialist. There are people at D.E.P., who are. I look at the results from the ground water tests, that are completed three times a year up there. But so far I’m not aware of any situation, that you have mentioned here about ‘fractures,’ between the pipes.”
Q : “Right, I’m not either. I guess it’s just something that ah, Mr. Coffman brought up, and so forth. Does the State Planning Office actually have to spend any money to ah, own the Juniper Ridge Landfill every year?”
A : “Ummm….The State Planning Office pays my salary, and expenses that I incur related to the oversight of the landfill. Ummm….Casella is responsible for most of the expenses up there. Now and then we do have a little, something to pay, but for the most part Casella pays everything up there.”
Q : “So when someone…”
A : “An example, Ummm… When I have to consult with an Attorney at the Attorney General’s Office. That time is something that the State has to be responsible for.”
Q : “O.K.. So it’s not exactly accurate when, someone says that, “The State Planning Office spends millions of dollars a year for the Juniper Ridge Landfill?”
A : “Ah, yeah. That’s is not correct.”
Q : “O.K.. I appreciate it. ‘cuz that’s…I’m just trying to confirm this information. Ah, there were allegations of illegal chemicals being brought in from out of state, and dumped into Old Town. Bob Duchesnes’ response was: “I would have to defer to the State Planning Office to see what type of checking is being done.’”
A : “Well, this gets back to our earlier question.”
Q : “Exactly.”
A : “The loads are restricted to what is acceptable material. Acceptable material is spelled out in the agreement we have with Casella. There’s a sign at the entrance to the landfill, that says, what is acceptable and what isn’t. And then each load has to have a copy of the manifest, signed by the driver. And that’s how we keep track of what’s going in there. So, that’s our system for checking loads. Yes, I am up there. I do, when I’m up there, I do see what’s coming in on the trucks, and the manifests are there for me to look at. They keep them in the office for me to review.”
Q : “Do you have other people on site, to check this stuff being dumped, as Bob Duchesne assumed during his interview?”
A : “The State Planning Office doesn’t have other people there. D.E.P., staff are there on a regular basis checking, and Casellas’ own staff are checking. Again, should something be delivered that isn’t appropriate, Casella, could be in violation of their agreement. They don’t want that.”
Q : “ Yeah, that’s totally understandable. Now in Part One, Hillary Lister said, ah, ‘Primary thing that the State Planning Office does is run the dump with Casella. Is that true, or do you folks do other things?”
A : “I don’t understand what she is saying. Can you repeat the question?”
Q : “Yup. Ah, she said, “The primary thing that The State Planning Office does is run the dump with Casella.’ I mean, do you folks have other operations hat you do, that the States’ Planning Office does?”
A : “The State Planning Office. Which is about to be dismantled, by the way.”
Q : “Yes.”
A : “It goes away in about six months, maybe sooner. As around a dozen programs in it. One of the programs is: ‘Waste Management and Recycling.’ I have dour staff. A year ago I had six. Down to four. And most of my time is spent overseeing the landfills, the State owns. Whether it is the Dolby Landfill, the Juniper Landfill, or the Carpenter Ridge site. That’s where my time is spent. So no, the State Planning Office, doesn’t spend its entire time, staff and budget on the landfill. And it’s not ‘a dump.’ It’s a highly engineered structure. People like to call it a dump. But it’s not like the dump I grew up with, where it was burned every Saturday, and trash is just thrown and nobody really cared about it. We’re concerned about the environment today. There are extreme measures being put into place to make sure that there’s no releases to the environment, from the leachate. That the landfill gas is controlled. We’re actually collecting the landfill gas generated primary methane, at the Juniper Ridge landfill and we’re flaring it off. And we’re in the process, Casella’s got the lead on this, of actually piping that landfill gas to the University of Maine at Orono. Where they will be using it as a fuel in their heating system.”
Q : “Now do they ‘flare it off,’ onsite?”
A : “They ‘flare it off,” at the facility itself. We have about a three foot diameter. Umm…yeah, three foot diameter. Diameter is across circumference right? Diameter pipe. And it looks like a giant candle. It’s about 40 feet high, and at the top is an 8-12 foot blue-ish to yellow flame that burns 24 hours a day. And that’s burning off the methane and other gases that are released by the decomposition of the waste.”
Q : “Now, ah, is it…the pipeline from Juniper Ridge Landfill going down to Orono, have they actually designed a route yet going down?”
A : “No. No. We’re …or Casella, I say ‘we,’ ah, Casella keeps me in the loop on it. Casella is in the process, of getting the permits for the process. Then they will do the pipeline lay out design.”
Q : “O.K., and Ah…Also Hillary Lister in part one agreed the audience at the Black…at the meeting at the Black Bear Inn, called for an audit of what sort of trash Casella takes in and where it comes from. And you already stated that, ah, you folks do audits too and so forth.”
A : “This information’s available, yes.”
Q : “O.K.. And ah, is it possible…Ah, so you guys, the audits…”
A : “Can I jump in here?”
Q : “Sure.”
A : “Every month Casella prepares a report of each load of material that was delivered to the landfill. Whether it was contaminated soil, ash from a bio-mass boiler, ash from waste energy plant, finding processed residue form a waste energy plant. Construction and Demolition debris, processing residues from different operations, sludge, all that is tabulated and it’s on our website. Ah, we post it, Alana is our webmaster. (She was sitting in during the interview.) I think that’s the right term. (Lets out a single chuckle.) And so you can go to the State Planning Office, waste management recycling website. Go to Juniper Ridge and you can find for the last year, each monthly report for the amount and types of waste that were delivered to Juniper Ridge. And that’s from this information here, on the manifest.”
Q : “O.K.. So you guys are…It sounds like you folks are on top of it.”
A : “Well, we, we try, so.”
Q : “O.K., and ah, Hillary Lister also said in part one, about the meeting. She said, ‘People were unanimous against the expansion, or the public was. The only people in favor of it was Casella, the State Planning Office and the Maine Department of Environmental Protection. Now is the State Planning Office officially in favor of the expansion, or are you guys professional neutral?”
A : “O.K., the, umm...The meeting at the Black Bear Inn was on the public benefit determination.”
Q : “Correct.”
A : “Which is the first step before we, ah, apply for an expansion to Juniper Ridge. So, we had not prepared an application for the expansion. We’re waiting for a decision from the Department on the public benefit determination.”
Q : “Right, Bob Duchesne said that too.”
A : “And, so what we’re looking for is, yes, we support moving ahead, with getting permission to have the landfill expand. Because the landfill will not last for the entire length of contract, that we anticipated, when we signed the contract with Casella. In our contract with Casella, the operating services agreement would actually required Casella to submit an application for the expansion of the landfill. Because the ten million cubic yards capacity it had when the whole process was over, would not be sufficient to carry the needs of the State, for the 30 years we had anticipated.”
Q : “Well, ah, that’s an interesting point, because, I looked at the records and it seemed like when the deal was struck, Casella’s’ tonnage was sustainable low; but then started increasing more and more and more. And I actually, I, from what Jim Freeman and Bob Duchesne says is: ‘If the State was really careful, about how they used the space, the people of Maine, the Juniper Ridge Landfill could last the State of Maine 50 years. But the way Casellas’ is running it, it’s probably going to last 10 or 15 years and so forth. Because they’re bringing in so much Construction Debris.”
A : (Clears throat.) “The agreement for the State, to have Casella operate the landfill was signed in February of 2004. That, and then we got the license from the Department to allow for the , umm…increase in capacity at the landfill. That was appealed, to the Board of Environmental Protection, by ‘We The People,’ and some other folks. Ah, that was settled in October of November of 2004, by the Board of Environmental Protection. Saying that, ‘Yes, you could.’ But it was appealed again to the Superior Court. Superior Court did not rule until March of 2006. That the State could indeed accept ‘Non-mill waste, ‘ at the landfill.’ Prior to that, all we could take was ‘mill waste.’ So if you look at 2004, 2005, the early part of 2006, there’s not a lot of waste going to Juniper Ridge. ‘Cuz we didn’t have permission to take ‘non paper mill waste,’ there. In 2006, the first thing we had to do, was to take the 300,000 yards of paper mill sludge that was buried at the site and mix it. Paper mill sludge is not a very stable product. It’s not a stable waste. It’s very fluid. It has a life of its own. It actually roils amongst itself. It looks like a lava field. It will actually turn on itself. So we had to excavate that. I say we, Casella, and their contractors. Had to excavate that material, mix it with construction demolition debris, to make a more firm base, on which to build the landfill from. You just can’t pile trash on top of the sludge. Otherwise the sludge would just be like tapioca pudding. It will just go anywhere. And so for the first, it really wasn’t until the middle of 2007, that we were really able to start taking, umm…what we thought the landfill would be able to take, in terms of waste streams, whether tonnage or types. But now we have the waste energy plants, their residue streams are going to the landfill. Umm…K.T.I.s’, Casella’s operation in Lewiston, those residues are going to the landfill. We have contaminated soils from clean-ups. Ah, ‘Cutler Base/ Brunswick Naval Air Station, those contaminated soils, came to Juniper Ridge for disposal. They were all tested, deemed to be safe to be land filled at Juniper Ridge. So the tonnage has increased. In 2009, Pine Tree Landfill, Casella owned commercial landfill in, ah…”
Q : “It’s…”
A : “Hampden.”
Q : “Yeah.”
A : “Hampden, was closed. The State did not allow them to expand, so they had to close their operation. That facility was taking in around 150,000 tons of Maine generated waste a year. It’s also taking in a lot more than that of out of state waste. So what they did in 2010, is all the in the State generated waste, began being shipped to Juniper Ridge and all the out of State waste, didn’t come into Maine for disposal. Some came to K.T.I., and the rest of it went somewhere else. And so, yes, the Waste Stream has had, and I’m using hands here, I’m making little jumps: 2007 when we could start bringing in more waste, we did. There’s a jump. 2010 when Pine Tree Landfill was no longer available to accept waste, the waste stream jumped again. So we’re up to around 700,000 tons of waste a year.”
Q : “O.K., and I said to Bob Duchesne. I said: ‘O.K.. Hillary also said, I was…what happened, was she said, -and incidentally Don Meag…’”
A : “Meagher.”
Q : “I always mispronounce that… ‘Meagher is the Casella Rep who allegedly met with the Maine Department of Environmental Protection to redefine what ‘Maine Waste,’ is. Of course that is: ‘If it’s processed in Maine, then it’s considered as Maine Waste.’ I asked Mr. Duchesne if he was familiar with that meeting. He said, ‘I think she’s probably referring to is, when they originally did the deal. That was before, I was in the Legislature. Probably I guess in 2003. Before Casella agreed to get into this deal, to buy the landfill and move that boiler from Athens into Old Town. They confirmed with the State Planning Office and with the Department of Environmental Protection that waste that is ‘processed in Maine,’ so that valuable components are taken out for fuel and whatever, that the residue is considered ‘Maine waste,’ eligible for land filling at Juniper Ridge. So if that meeting did take place, and that conversation was/ is part of public record. So, it’s definitely been a done deal. If waste is processed here the reside is ours.’
If your able to confirm this yourself, does the State Planning Office have those public records on file to settle this once and for all?”
A : “I’m not aware of that meeting. It may have taken place, it may not of. I do know that prior to the agreement being signed, the operator services agreement, where Casella runs Juniper Ridge Landfill for the State, Umm…the standard interpretation of D.E.P. was: ‘If waste came into the State and was mechanically, physically, or chemically altered, the residues from that process were Maine generated waste. And that was the interpretation that we used. Now in 2007, the Legislature said it was. They passed a law. That said that, that those residues, including by ‘bypass,’ so it didn’t even have to be processed. If it was waste destined to a waste energy plant; but couldn’t be delivered there, because the plant was at capacity, or it was broken down, or whatever reason couldn’t manage that waste. It was still considered, ‘in-state waste.’ And I can get you that site, before you leave if you like.”
Q : “Sure, Sure, Sure.”
A : “O.K..”
Q : “O.K., and ah, Bob Duchesne also said, ‘ The person who supervises the landfills from the State ownership point of view, George MacDonald, will end up with the Department of Economic and Community Development.’ Is that all landfills, or just Juniper Ridge, and the other two you named off?”
A : “Ummm…O.K….I…what I’m going to do here is, believe Representative Duchesne, whose referring to the re-organization of the State Planning Office. In which the waste management recycling program, three staff are being eliminated. And they’re overseeing the date, planning, technical assistance program, of the waste management recycling program here. They’re no longer employed. Lana loses her job this year. But their responsibilities are being transferred to the Department of Environmental Protection. The landfill ownership, the actual title, the right, deeds and interest, will be transferred to the Bureau of General Services. Which is responsible for State owned property. And what’s proposed in the ‘re-organization plan,’ is that, the person oversees the landfills, will be transferred to the Department of Economic and Community Development. And that person would oversee the Juniper Ridge Landfill, which is in Old Town. The Dolby Landfill, which is in East Millinocket, that we operate for Great Northern Paper; and then there is a Carpenter Ridge Site, which is undeveloped. It’s a ‘green field,’ that’s west of Lincoln Maine. And that person would be at, ‘D.E.C.D.’ but the actual title for the properties, would be held at the Bureau of General Services. There’s also a proposal to have the person overseeing the landfills, be located at the Bureau of services, not Economic and Community Development. That hasn’t been settled yyet as far as I understand.”
Q : “O.K., and ah, Have you ever worked for ‘Pierce Atwood,’ or any other Lobbying Firm in the past?”
A : “No.”
Q : “Great! I’m so glad to hear that. O.K., ah…”
A : “Who asked the question?”
Q : “Oh, my gosh! I guess, ah, ah, Pattie Aho, was 22 years ago an ‘Attack Dog Lawyer,’ for Pierce Atwood when they had the…”
A : “Was, ah, what attorney?”
Q : “They call her an ‘attack-dog lawyer.’”
A : “Attack-Dog! O.K..” (Laughs.)
Q : “Because for 3 years, they fought at Township 30. Pattie Aho’s side spent 3 ½ million dollars, and Nancy Oden and her crew from Washington County spent $75,000. It was sometimes 24 hours a day. It took 3 whole years, to fight off the dumps out there. And there she is, Pattie Aho, head of the Maine Department of Environmental Protection. And the person before that, Darryl Brown who was appointed, then had to come to the State Planning office because a conflict of interest. Then the person before that, Bob Litell, was also ah…”
A : “David.”
Q : “Dave, Dave Litell, was a former Attorney for Pierce Atwood, so of course I had to ask the question: ‘If you …’ And no one said it. I just had to ask it and I’m pretty relieved.”
A : “I repeat, ‘No,’ I have not worked for Cas…for…Casella. I have not worked for Pierce Atwood. I have not worked for any other legal firm in this State.”
Q : “O.K.. Great. Now at what stage is the State Planning Office at in moving ahead of the application for the proposed expansion?”
A : “Ah, we are basically just waiting, right now, for the Department of Environmental Protection to make a decision on the public benefit determination application. They had 60 days, it’s in statue, for them to make a decision. They asked for an extension, from somewhere around, ah, November 22nd, I think it was the 60th day. They asked if they could have until the end of January, to complete their review, and we said, ‘yes.’
Q : “O.K..”
A : “If we had said, ‘no,’ the application would be denied. So, we said, ‘Yes, let’s keep this processing moving ahead.’”
Q : “O.K., and Darryl Brown was an advisor to the Governor to try and figure out on behalf of the Governor, what the State’s solid waste policy is going to change to. Since you took over Darryl Browns role for the Juniper Ridge Landfill, can you tell us, if your familiar what those changes may be?”
A : “I did not take over Darryl Brown’s role for Juniper Ridge.”
Q : “O.K..”
A : “I’ve…this has been my assignment since April 16th 2003.” (Laughs.)
Q : “Really?”
A : “Along with overseeing recycling and solid waste programs for Maine’s communities and businesses. It’s just been part of what we do here. So, the landfill, whether it’s Juniper Ridge Landfill or Carpenter Ridge, or now Dolby Landfill, it’s just part of what we do here. Amm…I was no involved in the discussions that Darryl Brown or Carlisle McLean,(Note from Doug- Carlisle McLean Current: Senior Natural Resource Policy Advisor at State of Maine Office of the Governor. Past: Attorney at Preti Flaherty.) had, she’s with the governor’s office. I know they went around. They met with all kinds of solid waste people. I believe they met with representative Duchesne. They met, with the waste energy plants. The landfills. I know they met with the Old Town Landfill citizens advisory committee. Ah, they met with other people. I don’t know exactly who they met with, and I have not been involved in the development of the Governor’s policy. So, I can’t answer your question.”
Q : “O.K., that’s fine. Ah, the other thing I wanted to ask, is. On your website, you have this Juniper Ridge time, ah, Juniper Ridge Landfill time line.”
A : “MM-Huh.”
Q : “Do I have your permission to, ah, actually ‘copy and paste,’ this at the end of this interview?”
A : “Yeah. It’s public information.”
Q : “O.K., and also this thing about the Juniper Ridge Landfill, (Pulls out copies printed on paper.) on your site. Would that? Do I need? Can I get your permission to also? Well, not this, because that’s Bangor Daily News; but this little paragraph right here?”
A : “We actually got permission from the Bangor Daily News to post it on our website. They were pleased, that we not only asked them. I guess people post stuff without asking permission. But, they were glad they were able to help inform the public with their diagram. No, if it’s on the website, it’s public information.”
Q : “And this, unfortunately I don’[t have a P.D.F. file, so would it be alright if I just…” (It’s a copy of the drivers manifest.)
A : “Can you take that with you and scan it?”
Q : “I don’t have a scanner.”
Lana : “ I can scan it for him.”
George : “O.K.. O.K..”
Lana : “Send it?”
George : “O.K., good. You work with Lana on that? Yup that’s not a problem.”
Q : “O.K., and do you have any closing statements you’ll like to make?”
A : “Wow! Ah, (chuckles.) You’ve covered quite a range of subjects here. Ammm…”
Q : “Well it’s been going…this things been going on since, like, October. I’ve been doing interviews. And it’s just…honesty, I feel like I’m going insane half the time. You know, like my brains melting. So, yeah, I definitely have to cover a lot of ground and so forth. And that’s why I had all these questions and so forth.”
A : “Ummm…I guess what I’d like to do is, Umm…you know, Landfills aren’t the most popular post of our job. Umm…the State adopted the waste measure and hierarchy: “Reduce, reuse, recycle, compost, incinerate for energy recovery and landfill. Those are the preferred methods for managing waste. Let’s reduce, reuse, recycle, compost. Let’s landfill the very minimal amount that we need to. 84% of the material that went to juniper Ridge in 2010, was residue form processing and material. Casella’s required to operate the landfill, as much as they can, in accordance with the hierarchy. They’re doing the best they can. There’s always room for improvement. But the other side of the coin is, ‘why do we have a landfill?’ We have a landfill because people are throwing things away. Now there are some things that should be legitimately disposed of. It’s not right or they can’t be reused, recycled or composted. Maybe they shouldn’t be burnt. But let’s work as a society, to minimize the amount of waste that ends up at a landfill. Nobody wants a landfill. I’m quite sure, as you’re finding out, it’s not the most favorite way to spend your day.”
Q : (Chuckles.) “Or my life.”
A : “It’s very discouraging, but, and, what we’re trying to do here is, minimize the number of landfill sites in the State. At one time, each town, basically had its own burning dump. We had over 360 burning dumps. The environment was much more at risk then, than it is now. Now there’s 6 or 7 landfills. I say 6 or 7, Greenville’s landfill is in the process of being closed. The town of Greenville. So that’s one less landfill. I don’t know if it’s closed yet or not, but it will be soon, if it isn’t yet. And the landfills today have liners. There’s a way to collect leachate. There’s a way to manage the leachate. There’s a way to better manage the waste so we don’t have releases of Methane gas and Hydrogen Sulfide just going off. That’s being collected and managed. Leachates being sent to treatment plants. It’s not polluting the ground water, like it could be, if it was just let loose. It’s not, it’s collected. At Juniper Ridge, we have tractor trailers with tanks, hauling leachates down to the Old Town Fuel and Fiber belt for processing before it’s released. That’s an expense, but it’s cheaper than damaging the environment. There’s a conscious effort, by the people who run landfills. Whether it’s the private sector or the public sector, to do a good job. Everybody’s watching us. We need to do a good job. Maine has very strict environmental rules and regulations. I think they’re very much needed, and we’re doing our best to comply with them. The landfill at Old Town, Juniper Ridge, is being operated in substantial compliance, with D.E.P. rules and regulations. That’s the highest mark we get from D.E.P.. So I think we’re doing a job good there. Casella’s doing a good job. What I’d like to be able to do, is say: ‘you know, because there isn’t enough waste to run the waste energy plants. That there isn’t enough waste to support the landfill, we can close down our disposal facilitations.’ I don’t see that happening soon. We’re in a disposable society. Our mindset is: ‘Oh we’ll just toss it out. Somebody else…’ A couple of years ago, I was interviewed by the Bangor Daily, and the reporter was saying: ‘How would you sum up people’s reactions to trash?’ I go: ‘people want trash picked up, but not put down.’ They don’t want a landfill in their backyard. They don’t want a waste energy plant in their back yard. They don’t want a treatment plant in their back yard. And so until society accepts that it’s got some responsibility, for the trash that they generate. And they need to participate in reducing the need for disposing it. Finding a better way to manage it, or we’re going to have landfills.”
Q : “So in other words, if everyone recycled everything to the ‘inth degree, then we’re going to continue to have this problem.”
A : “We are going to reduce it greatly. I don’t know if we can ever get it to the point where we don’t need a landfill. But if we can get to the point, where we are not land filling as much as we are. That would be great. If we could reduce our dependency upon landfills, that would be great.”
Q : “Now, you said you had the State Police checking the trucks, is that correct?”
A : “I had talked to the State Police, and they are willing to work with me. They would not only just checking whether the loads are coming straight from, out-of state to Juniper Ridge, but also checking weights. Because when I started my conversations with the State Police, the trucks that weighted more than 80,000 pounds, couldn’t use the interstate, to go to Old Town. They had to get off here in Augusta, if they weighed more than 80,000 pounds. So they’re getting off in Augusta, and going up Route 202. And then coming across through the back way, either through Bangor or Veazie, or up pass Brewer and then coming across in Old Town and going to the land fill. Going through towns and what not. That they can stay on the interstate, and the law has been changed, so they can go on the interstate if they weigh 100,000 pounds. But they still needed to be checked. I mean, what we do at Juniper Ridge, and you’ll see on our webpage, if you go through the Juniper Ridge monthly reports, we track the overweight trucks. And not every truck is 100,000 pounds or less, and we track that. And what the policy is at Juniper Ridge: For the first time the truck drivers’ over 100,000 pounds he gets a warning. A verbal warning. A second time he gets a written warning. The third time, he can’t deliver waste to the landfill for 30 days. And if they’re over, unless they are over 110, 112,000 pounds, they are rejected that day. That’s the last load they’ll bring in. And we’ve had lots of discussions , about what’s the best thing to do. Do we turn the truck away? Well, if a truck weighs 103,000 pounds, do we turn the truck away and send it back out on the roads to some other place? So the policy has been: ‘We’re accept it, but we’re start warning them not to do that.’ And not every truck comes from a place that has scales. A lot of the cleanup sites, like down at Cutler, on the coast, there were no scales for weighing the trucks. So it’s kinda hard to know if you’re at 98 or 103,000 pounds payloads.”
Q : “O.K.. Well, I want to thank you very much and I hope you have a great day.”
A : “O.K.. Not a problem, and I’ll give you this. It’s an article from one of the publications we get, and it’s just ‘Landfills are still number one.’ Public enemy’s that is. So I know. But it’s true. Like I was saying, nobody wants a landfill in their backyard. Nobody wants a landfill period. It’s got to be a better way about it, I just thought. This is from a waste industries publication.”
Q : “Right.”
A : “So, just to give you their perspective.”
Q : “I appreciate that. I appreciate your time too. I know it was a long interview.”
A : “Hey, glad to help.”
Q : “Great, thank you.”
A : “You’re welcome. And what I’ll do is I’ll also give Lana the statutory site for in-state waste.”
Q : “That would be great. That would be great.”
A : “So, you’ll have that. Before we even thought of developing West Old Town landfill, and a little background. Is, the landfill was originally called, ‘James River Landfill.’ Back when James River Paper Company started it. Back in the mid…started the process in the late 80’s, and actually started the landfill in 1995. And, when the State began to process, to acquire the landfill, I met with the city council, the Old town City Council. And they supported the development of the landfill at that time. But they said, ‘We have one request Mr. MacDonald.’ I said, ‘Call me George.’ They said, ‘Please change the name of the landfill. We don’t want to name of our city to be the name of the state landfill.’ I said, ‘Not a problem.’ And so, after the dust settled, and we had permission to bring in other wastes, the name became Juniper Ridge.”
Q : “Even through Junipers don’t grow on ridges.” (Laughs.)
A : “Yeah, but Juniper Ridge landfill is, it could be anywhere, and , ah, that’s what the city council wanted. So, I think we tried to accommodate their wish. And, no, ah, (chuckles.) I grew up on the coast and Junipers grow most anywhere. But I haven’t found any up there yet.”
Q : “Right.”
A : “But it just fit well, so.”
Q : "I just had to say that because Ralph Coffman said that, and it's just one of those things that stuck out in my brain. O.K.. Well, I want to thank you very much, my tapes almost over. I hope you have a great day."
A : "You too."
Q : "Thank you."
Attempt to verify Nancy Oden statement with Pattie Aho-Commissor Maine Department of Environmental Protection.
Q : "Pattie do you mind if I ask you a quick question?"
A : "On what?"
Q : "Ah, 22 years ago were you..."
A : "Who are you?"
Q : "My name is Doug Papa."
A : "And no, you can't ask me this while they're in middle of a work session."
Q : "O.K.."
A : "Sorry."
Q : "No problem."
Juniper Ridge Landfill
The Juniper Ridge Landfill is owned by the State of Maine and is part of the solid waste disposal system within the state that provides for Maine's solid waste disposal needs. Juniper Ridge Landfill accepts residues from waste-to-energy facilities, construction/demolition debris and other wastes generated within the State.
Juniper Ridge Landfill is operated by New England Waste Services of Maine, LLC, a subsidiary of Casella Waste Systems.
Background on the landfill:
In 1989, the Maine Legislature banned new commercial solid waste disposal facilities and placed the responsibility for providing future disposal capacity on the State itself. In accordance with this policy, in 2003, the Legislature directed the State to acquire the Juniper Ridge Landfill in Old Town, Maine to address the solid waste disposal needs of Maine residents and businesses. (Juniper Ridge Timeline - PDF 50KB)
SPO submitted its application for its Public Benefit Determination for the proposed expansion of the Juniper Ridge Landfill on September 16, 2011. Copies are available for viewing at Old Town’s City Hall, Alton’s Town Office and at the DEP office on Hogan Road in Bangor. You can also view a PDF file of the submitted application here: JRL Public Benefit Deterimation Application (PDF 7.68MB)
Exploring the Juniper Ridge Landfill - graphic - Bangor Daily News, June 2010 (PDF - 255KB). View entire BDN Juniper Ridge Landfill article (PDF 314KB).
On January 31, 2012, the Department of Environmental Protection issued a partial approval on the Public Benefit Determination, which may be viewed at http://www.maine.gov/dep/waste/juniperridge/
Legislative Links:
For more information on Juniper Ridge Landfill, please see options below:
· Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ PDF 76KB)
· Juniper Ridge Monthly Reports (includes status overview of major activities at the landfill during the past month, waste deliveries, financial benefit report and other records). Use drop down menu below to select month, year and report. Reports are posted for a twelve month period. If you wish to obtain older reports please email your request to Lana LaPlant-Ellis.
· Juniper Ridge Annual Reports - 2010 Annual Report (Large file PDF 59.84MB), 2009 Annual Report NOTE: Large file (PDF 70.62 MB) and 2009 Annual Report Disclaimer (PDF 11KB)
· Juniper Ridge Operating Services Agreement and related documents. Use drop down menu below to select document.
· Juniper Ridge Landfill - Virtual Tour (5.22MB PDF) Developed and provided by Casella Waste Systems, Inc.
· Location of Juniper Ridge (courtesy GoogleEarth)
· Assessment of State-owned Landfill Management and Oversight - Report to the Natural Resources Committee - February 5, 2010 (PDF 3.02MB). Letters related to this report from the Town of Norridgewock received on February 5, 2010 and the City of Old Town received on February 19, 2010.
· Juniper Ridge Powerpoint - Persentation to the Natural Resources Committee, June 2010. (PDF 2.2MB)
· Maine Solid Waste Capacity Powerpoint - Presentation to the Natural Resources Committee, June 2010. (PDF 377KB)
Links:
· City of Old Town - Juniper Ridge Landfill and Landfill Advisory Committee Information
· Maine Department of Environmental Protection - Juniper Ridge Landfill
Information will be added to this website as it becomes available.
Juniper Ridge Landfill - Timeline
1989 – Maine Legislature bans new or expanded commercial solid waste disposal facilities and creates Maine Waste Management Agency to oversee future capacity development.
1994 – Maine Waste Management Agency purchases and seeks a permit for Carpenter Ridge Landfill in T2 R8 (located West of Lincoln, Maine) to be held as an undeveloped landfill site until needed in the future.
1995 – Maine Department of Environmental Protection permits Carpenter Ridge to accept special wastes.
1995 – Legislature abolishes Maine Waste Management Agency and moves many of the agency’s responsibilities to the State Planning Office.
2003 – To help reduce the paper mill’s energy costs and save jobs at Georgia Pacific/Fort James in Old Town, Governor Baldacci’s Administration negotiates an agreement that leads to the State acquiring the paper company’s landfill and makes the State’s operator responsible for providing disposal capacity and fuel wood for the mill’s biomass boiler, at below-market prices.
2003 – The Maine Legislature directs the State to acquire the West Old Town Landfill (subsequently renamed it the Juniper Ridge Landfill).
2003 – The State Planning Office seeks competitive proposals for a qualified landfill operator and awards a contract to Casella Waste Systems, Inc.
2004 – The State Planning Office and Casella enter into an operating services agreement that includes a fuel supply agreement, a cap on tipping fees, exclusions on certain wastes, and a requirement that the operator apply for additional landfill capacity by a date certain.
2004 – The Department of Environmental Protection approves the transfer of the landfill’s operating license to the State Planning Office.
2004 – The Board of Environmental Protection considers an appeal of the license transfer and upholds the decision.
2005 – An appeal of the license transfer is made to the Penobscot Superior Court.
2006 – The Penobscot Superior Court upholds the license transfer.
2006 – The State’s landfill operator, Casella, begins accepting construction and demolition debris and other in-state generated waste at Juniper Ridge.
2006 – The first amendment to the landfill’s operating services agreement is signed, delaying the date by which the operator is required to submit an expansion application.
2006 – The second amendment to the landfill’s operating services agreement is signed, assigning rights held by Fort James to Red Shield, the new operator of the mill in Old Town. Also, it allowed for the limited disposal of out-of-state generated by-passed construction and demolition debris, to permit the operator to fulfill its fuel commitment to the mill owner. However before the amendment can take effect, the State Planning Office and Casella Waste Systems, Inc. withdraw the necessary corresponding amendment to the environmental license that would have allowed disposal of by-passed construction and demolition debris.
2006 – The State Planning Office and Casella Waste Systems, Inc. submit a preliminary information report to the Maine Department of Environmental Protection, for a proposed expansion of the Juniper Ridge Landfill.
2009 – The operator of the state-owned landfill prepares an application, as required under the operating services agreement, for the expansion of the Juniper Ridge Landfill for the State Planning Office, to be submitted to the Maine Department of Environmental Protection.
2009 - The Legislature amends Maine’s solid waste management laws to remove the presumption of public benefit for state-owned disposal facilities.
2009 - The State Planning Office and its, landfill operator, Casella Waste Systems, submit an application for a public benefit determination to the Department of Environmental Protection for the proposed expansion of the Juniper Ridge Landfill
2009 – The commercially-owned and operated Pine Tree Landfill in Hampden is closed in accordance with an agreement between the Department of Environmental Protection, the Town of Hampden, and the landfill owner, Casella Waste Systems
2010 - The Department of Environmental Protection issues a draft denial on the public benefit determination for expanding Juniper Ridge. State Planning Office/Casella withdraws the application.
LaPlant-Ellis, Lana Lana.LaPlant-Ellis@maine.gov
Jan 5
to me
Hi Doug, Please see George MacDonald’s email below, referencing the statue that defines out of state waste. I have also attached a PDF file of the manifest form required for all loads that arrive at the Juniper Ridge Landfill. If you need anything further, please feel free to contact me. Thank You, Lana From: MacDonald, George
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 10:15 AM
To: LaPlant-Ellis, Lana
Subject: statutory definition for 'in state waste' Doug - Here is the definition of ‘waste that is generated within the State that was adopted by the Maine Legislature in 2007…. In Title 38: WATERS AND NAVIGATION, Chapter 13: WASTE MANAGEMENT HEADING: Subchapter 1: GENERAL PROVISIONS HEADING: §1303-C. Definitions As used in this chapter or in chapter 24, unless the context otherwise indicates, the following terms have the following meanings. (this definition is found between paragraphs ‘6’ and ‘7’ ) For purposes of this subsection, "waste that is generated within the State" includes residue and bypass generated by incineration, processing and recycling facilities within the State or waste whether generated within the State or outside of the State if it is used for daily cover, frost protection or stability or is generated within 30 miles of the solid waste disposal facility. (Here’s the link to that section: http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/38/title38sec1303-C.html
Hillary Lister Interview
Q : “O.K., I’m sitting here. I’m fortunate enough to be sitting here with Hillary Lister. Hillary have you heard about this? I guess the Bangor Daily News, did a piece on Don Meagher and ah, at the end of it, it wasn’t on him, it was on Juniper Ridge. But, at the end of it, Casella Said they were planning on suing if the State threatens to restrict the out of state demolition and construction debris coming in, because Juniper Ridge is actually nearing capacity; and they got a 30 year contract. So if it nears capacity at the 30 year contract and we actually, ah, restrict that demolition construction debris, Casella is, I guess, threatening to sue. Have you heard anything about that?”
A : “That’s the first I’ve heard of that. I mean they’ve threaten to sue other times, at hearings and stuff. But that’s the first I’ve heard in specific relation to this.”
Q : “Do you know the things they threaten to sue with?”
A : “Basically it’s any sort of restrictions on what they can bring in the past. This got brought up, maybe several years ago. I know when they were talking about just defining, ‘out of state waste,’ as out of state waste, and they said very clearly: ‘Well that went through this public process through the legislature.’ Though they’ve also said if it changes through the Legislature, they would also respect that. So, it depends on who you talk to. (Chuckles.)
Q : “O.K. I was talking to Jim Freeman. At one time, one person said to Jim: ‘That they’re filling toxic chemicals into 55 gallon drums. And they put them in on the back on containers. And they open the containers, the doors just a little bit, so it dribbles out onto the highway. Then it gets hard and it evaporates. Then it goes into the Maine Streams.’ Now I interviewed George MacDonald at the State Planning Office. He says, ‘You know, I would love, to have…’ you know, ‘…hard evidence of this. If you need to do it, contact the Maine Department of Environmental Protection.’
I just tried asking Pattie Aho…right, just a quick question: ‘Was it true that 22 years ago…” She shut me off. She goes: ‘Not during committee hearings.’ So, do you feel if someone did come up with hard evidence, and presented it to the Maine Department of Environmental Protection, they’ll would just have to do a ‘Psych-Ops,’ or ‘Psychological Operations,’ and pretend it didn’t happen? And the other question is: Have you heard stories about the 55 gallon drums?”
A : “Yeah, I originally heard about that from Nancy Oden, when they were fighting the, I think it was the Township 20 dump in Washington County back in the ‘80’s.”
Q : “You mean Township 30?”
A : “Township 30, thank you, yup. And that was the whole issue there. That in the middle of the night, there were these trucks coming up here, and there would be a whole trail behind them. And it was they had some sort of liquid waste, that basically, they were getting rid of on the way up there. She’d would be a good one to talk to on that. I don’t know, if they like document that in any form. And that happened, Umm…with the …or with the construction waste burner in Athens. There were a couple times, where there were trucks that left there with something coming out of the back that left reside slick on the road for following weeks.”
Q : “Didn’t the Department of Environmental Protection, that you know of…”
A : “People…I think a couple of people called and made complaints. But there was no way to prove anything.”
Q : “So people actually called the Department of Environmental Protection in Maine?”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “And they, the hazardous spill response team didn’t even come out and take a look at it?”
A : “As far as I know. I’d have to check for sure. But, I don’t think there was any.”
Q : “Wow! O.K.. Now are you aware that, ah, ah,..have you heard anything…Jim said about this. I interviewed Bob Duchesne from House District 13. Ah, there’s an allegation that the, ah, ah, up by in Sand Rivers, ah, the Norridgewock dump. Ah, is actually, possibly leaching into the Sand River. Have you heard anything about that?”
A : “Mill Stream, I know it had, and Mill Stream feeds Sandy River. Yeah, there was a large…”
Q : “Whoa! Did you say what river Mill Stream feeds into?”
A : “Sandy River.”
Q : “Sandy River, O.K..”
A : “Yeap. And, I mean, that was originally had the problems with the contamination when there was the dump collapse back in ’89.”
Q : “What happen with that?”
A : “That was when the dump doubled in size. When it’s built on clay, so it just sort of let go underneath that, and they had a really big dump slide, and it literally doubled the size of the dump. Up to something like 20 some acres. And that’s why they brought in Waste Management, was the company that had been managing the dump. That way, that lead to that. Which led to people…like all the surrounding farms in the area were bought out for the most part. Other than Gloria Fredricks, whose right here, but everyone else ended up moving. It ended up contaminating the wells. It contaminated the streams. That what lead to a lot of Maine Waste policy being what it is now. Ummm…It was, the company that had been running it, they were a company out of New Jersey. That was importing a massive amount of out-or-state waste. They ended up getting a lot of charges against them. Lost the right to operate the dump. Then the B.E.P., looked for someone. The only qualified company they found to handle it was Waste Management, because that’s one of their specialties, is problem dumps. (Chuckles.) And they came forward and in giving them the contract, to do that there’s a lot of concerns. So that’s when they put in the ban on new commercial dumps, or dump expansions in Maine. So that would be ‘grandfathered in.’ But, they didn’t want it to expand beyond it’s current footprint.”
Interview with Diane Messer.
Q : “So, ah, we’re going to be interviewing a few people that come in and out. Because actually the Environmental natural Resources, ah, Committee work session for January 10th 2012. Ah, Diane, ah, just a quick thing, ah. What do you think of about some of these work session, ah, these ‘L.D.’s,’ that are taking place today? At the, ah, Environmental and Natural Resources Committee?”
A : “In general?”
Q : “Well our readers probably have no clue about what’s going on and so forth. Or the one’s you plan on speaking on.”
A : “Ah, well, we’re just dealing with, I don’t have the number right here. The one on proper disposal of ‘sharps.’ Here we go, ah, 1412. Ah, There is a huge problem with it. Ah, it is hazardous waste, and it can be infectious hazardous waste, and it can be infectious hazardous waste as well. And right now there is no adequate controlling of it. Speaking from personal experience, I have had a prescription, for hypodermic needles for a prescribed medication. Ummm…I was not provided any kind of disposal container. I was proactive. Many people when faced with this situation, would have just thrown it away in the trash. I asked: ‘How do I dispose of this?’ ‘Oh, just bend the needle over, and wrap it and put it inside a hard plastic container and throw it in regular trash.’ I went to a pharmacy and I asked them to take it back. Where I purchased the needles. They refused. They said, ‘we have no provision for that.’ I went to a hospital and asked them: ‘You have a lot of hazardous waste sharps disposable here. The red boxes are all over the wall. Ummm…I was not able to get the pharmacy to take it back, that sold them to me. So, Ummm, how about right here in the hospital?’ They refused them as well. They said ah, ‘You’re just going to have to handle it yourself.’ And how is that controlling people or preventing people from throwing their sharps in the regular trash? They may not wrap it and contain it properly, before they put it in the trash. I made the attempt to do the right thing, and I was, ah, pushed away. So, here they’re talking to industry representatives, asking them: ‘How would they, offer the consumer, the proper means to dispose of it?’ They’re not being compelled to, as I understand it. I stepped out of the hearing, or actually the work session, which has morphed into, (chuckles.) a hearing more or less. Ummm…the manufactures are being asked, how they would offer to, ah, help resolve this situation. And legislature sitting on the committee, have already made very clear comments, that they believe disposal, ah, requirement for manufactures to handle it, would be flatly rejected by the Legislature. So, what are we to do? Are we going to educate citizens on the proper disposal of them, and hope that they do it the right way? Where is the responsibility by the manufactures and the medical ah, ah, community in general, to handle this? It, you know, if you’re in the hospital and they give you an injection, they take the responsibility of disposing of the used ‘sharp,’ properly. But, many of us, for various reasons, whether someone is, ah, prescribed medication that has to be injected, at home, or, ummm…it could be for any purpose. For instance, ah, ah, a diabetic has to give themselves insulin injections. Now, if someone is doing that consistently over a long period of time, they may have the wherewithal to set up, a proper disposal. Meaning if they do it long term, they’re going to have hundreds of needles a month. Depending on how often they have to inject themselves. So they will make it their business to find a proper means of to dispose of. But, ah, its being left upon the user, at this point, and, I’m not hearing a satisfactory answer. I’m hoping to be able to offer my comments in front of the committee.”
Q : “O.K., and ah, is there any possibility that some of these, ‘sharps,’ can actually puncture the liners that are in the landfills?”
A : “I’m not so sure about that. Ummm…I…Ummm…I think it might be more a matter of worker safety at that point. Ummm…the workers in the landfills, ah, handling bags and things that would spill, and trying to… I’ve never been physically in a landfill, and watching them add material, or make sure it’s all contained when it’s dumped our of trucks or containers. But, Umm, I can imagine it would be a hazardous circumstance, in certain instances, I don’t know necessarily that a sharp would puncture a line. I think that’s probably unlikely, but I don’t know for sure.”
Q : “And if, if it did leachate, ah , into the, ah, ah, the groundwater, now much of a…in your opinion, nothing official of course, how much do you think that would ‘cross-contaminate,’ into animals and humans?”
A : “Mmm…yeah. That’s another matter. Rather than actual physically the needle puncturing the liner, I think it’s much more likely, what you just mentioned. About the, ah, any contamination from the needle getting into the leachate, and thereby if their liners do frequently leak, and it could get into the groundwater. So that is another aspect of safety and health, that could be violated.”
Diane Messer is joined by Hillary Lister for a dual interview.
Q : “Hillary, are you aware of how needles can actually puncture liners in landfills and so forth?”
Hillary : “That, I mean, I know they definitely could if they got that low. The only instance I know of needles puncturing anything through, were at the Hamden dump. When they were taking them in there, they were clogging up the treads of the equipment there. And there was a guy who went out to clean out the treads and got stuck with ‘sharps.’
Diane: “ that’s what I meant about workers. I had commented earlier about a worker, actually having, umm… hazardous… ummm… interaction, with the ‘sharp.’”
Hillary : “That’s the big thing. Between there and the processing facility in Pittsfield. They had also…I mean that got shut down, for a year and a half, due to the fact that the freezers weren’t working. So they had medical waste getting warm. The, ah, ‘auto-clave,’ that melts everything together, was not reaching high enough temperatures, ah, there was not proper ventilation. They were getting more waste in, than they had storage space for.”
Q : “Do you, what year that was about?”
Hillary : “Maybe four years ago? And they shut it down I think for a year and a half. Then they opened…They did this new partnership with Maine Hospital Association, and ah…what’s it called? ‘Enviro-something, medical waste company.’ So they’re up and going again. As supposedly they don’t have the problems. But?”
Q : “Whewwshoe!! O.K., O.k…Ahh…do you folks have anything, about to say about the, the, the, this, this, ‘sharps,’ issue and so forth?”
Hillary : “I mean it’s really has become an issue, every since they closed the Hampden dump. Because when they closed the dump there, they didn’t have any alternative location to send the bio-medical waste. And most of that is coming in from our of state, through the Pittsfield facility. Umm…so, they ended up going through this whole round of…just like, emergency rules. I think first they started sending them to Norridgewock. They had no public hearing on it. Just make…made the decision, they were going to temporary send it to Norridgewock, for six months. And then once that six months came up, they had another emergency ruling, that they could send it to Old Town. Where that was not allowed at all, under the rules of the State dump, but they just amended the rules so they start taking in medical waste. And that’s currently where it’s going as far as I know. And I’m not sure if they ever…how they transitioned it from an emergency ruling into a, just a standard policy, that they take it there now, but they do.”
Q : “Wheww!”
Diane : “And we just heard from committee members, that they believe that, ah, ah, a manufactures requirement to provide containers for disposal, which makes the most sense, stop it at the head end of the situation, instead of letting it get to the end, where you already got a problem. Prevent the problem from happening. The Legislatures have said, well, they are fairly certain that it would never pass, through the legislature, a manufactures requirement for safe disposal. You know, containers, as you sell the sharps. I buy them in a plain plastic, not any kind of sealed container. A plain plastic bag. That’s how you purchase, ‘sharps.’”
Q : “And the, like you said, they don’t even give you a ways to dispose of the ‘sharps.’”
Diane : “No. And the pharmacy wouldn’t take them back. The hospital wouldn’t take them back. They said (In a ‘sneaky’ tone of voice:) ‘Oh, just break the needle over. Bend the needle over, and wrap it up and put it in a ridged plastic container and put it, in the regular trash.’ (Now in a disbelief tone of voice:) I’m serious!”
Q : “Wheww! O.K. and shifting gears. Are you folks aware of the ‘Regulatory Takings Bill?’”
Hillary : “I know it’s Pierce Atwood’s, ‘big bill,’ they’re pushed through for a while. Just to make it so there’s not really much ability to regulate land-use. But, I’m just aware it exists, and it’s out of Pierce Atwood.”
Diane : “They tried it last year.”
Hillary : “I know they tried to get it through and they really didn’t go nowhere.”
Diane : “Basically it would dissolve L.U.R.C..”
Hillary : “Which they are currently having a hearing on over there, right now.”
Diane : “I wish I could be at two places, at the same time.”
Hillary : “As I said, I’ve visited and just had time to jump over there.”
Q : “So, what’s going on in the other committee room?”
Hillary : “The reorganization of L.U.R.C..”
Q : “Which is?”
Hillary : “The Land Use Regulation Commission.”
Q : “And they’re talking about?”
Hillary : “Talking about, making it so, that it’s more focused on the natural resources economy, and servings the natural resources economy, is what they were talking about when I was in there last.”
Diane : “Economy over safety.”
Q : “O.K. and umm…my other question is…o.k. well, I got a lot of questions. But my next question is this: are you folks familiar about the test wells up in Juniper Ridge?”
Hillary : “I’ve been to some of the test wells up there.”
Q : “O.K. Now when you went up there, was some of those under water?”
Hillary : “I’ve heard about some of them being under water. I didn’t see any of them under water, when I was up there. Ummm…they were just out in the woods. I thought it was sort of strange, that there were all sorts of ‘Poland Spring,’ water bottles around there. But I figured…”
Diane : (Dramatic ‘gasp,’ of sincere shock.)
Hillary : “Something with the testing. But I have photo’s of that so.”
Diane : (Loudly exhales. Still in shock.)
Q : “So what do you mean?”
Hillary : “Large, like gallon Poland Spring water bottles sitting. Most of them empty, some of them freshly full around the test wells.”
Q : “So, let’s get this straight. They had…”
Diane : “What do you think is happening with them?”
Hillary : “That was the ‘wondering.’ If they’re doing these tests, if they need to dilute ‘whatever.’ But it could be, they need plain water to somehow do the measurements as well too. But that was a suspicious thing.”
Q : “I just got Don Meaghers’ business card. I ran into him into the men’s room. I’m like: ‘Don Meagher!’ And he’s like: ‘How’s it going?’ I’m like, ‘Have you heard about me?’ He’s like, ‘No.’ I’m like, ‘O.K.’”
Diane : “Good.”
Q : “Good. I can definitely dive in.”
Hillary : “I don’t know how much he’d know about it. But one thing I just ran into last week, is the, ‘Casella Pack.’ I think it’s the Maine economic growth pack, or something like that. Which Casella is the primary funders of, along with the Maine Alumni Association. So, that’s just….and the office is based at U Maine.”
Q : “Can you to more into detail about that?”
Hillary : “Ummm…It’s Political Action Committee funds Democrats and some Republicans and it’s basically the U Maine Alumni Association and Casella Waste Systems provide the money for it. So just in terms of finding out how you have a ‘public-private,’ partnership like that to begin with.”
Diane : “A legitimate one.”
Hillary : “Yeap.” (Laughs nervously.)
Q : “What? What…”
Hillary : “What influence that would have over the contracts between the University of Maine, and Casella. But, between them getting the pipeline contract, which was, the a, ‘no competition,’ contract. They just got awarded the ‘single stream,’ recycling contract for University of Maine. The request for proposals was written so Casella was the only company that qualified. Eco-Maine is currently challenging that award.”
Diane : “And I would like to know what assure there is with ‘single-stream,’ recycling. That the material is.”
Hillary : (Laughs.)
Diane : “I know, I know, it’s (Bovine Stool.) The public is having the wool pulled over our eyes. By being told this is facilitating more recycling. A higher percentage of percentage of recycling by doing ‘single stream.’ They’re compressing it and leaving it in blocks. And it either latter on gets stuffed in a warehouse somewhere, or it actually gets put into landfills.”
Hillary : “Yeah.”
Diane : “I mean it’s not being, most of it is not being recycled.”
Q : “So can you , can you, explain to our readers what, ‘single-stream,’ is defined as?”
Diane : “Instead of dividing the numbered plastics. Like ones, two’s, three’s, etc.. They’re all, everything. Not just plastic, but all recyclables are being. Ummm…but it is primary plastic.”
Hillary : “Well it’s also paper and glass and that’s the main issue I know with that. Because a lot of the both paper recyclers, cardboard recyclers, and glass recyclers can’t purchase the product form single stream. Because…”
Diane : “It containments. It cross-commingling contamination and they can’t accept it them. So it’s no longer recyclable.”
Hillary : “Yeap. So it’s taking stuff out of the recycling market, that could otherwise be processed, if it had stayed separated out. But it’s making it, the only thing they can do with it, is send it to the dump.”
Diane : “it’s not an accident. It’s a concerted effort, to, ah absolve manufactures from handling, the responsibility and the facilitation of more recycling. The lobbyists for the manufactures are saying, ‘We don’t want to bear this burden.’ It costs them to maintain a recyclable container procedure. And except some manufactures at this point are having to accept some containers back. So if they no longer have to, and the means mechanism by which they do this, is ‘single stream,’ recycling, they’re supporting it. And it’s ‘eye-wash.’ The public hears: ‘wooo…easy. Single stream, put it all together and it all gets recycled. Whoopie!’ They don’t realize they are being sold a bill of goods. Most of it is not getting recycled, if any.”
Hillary : “I think the big promoters of it, are companies, that depend on that waste for fuel. So, there are competing in a market where there is less waste being produced locally. They’re importing it further and further. And they are competing with each other for the waste product. So this is basically, it allows them to have more fuel.”
Q : “So, but that’s not happening at Old Town though, because they are only burning green wood. Is that correct?”
Hillary : “Old Town is now, yeah, but for landfill gas, because they are generating electricity from.”
Q : “Amazing enough, I talked to Bob Meager. (Meant to say Bob Duchesne.) and he says: ‘According to Casella, and the university of Maine of Orono, there is enough landfill gas right now to support the needs and it wouldn’t have to depend on the expansion, of the landfill.’ But the other thing I pointed to him, is because Paul McCarrier said…he talked to me about ‘Weibo’s War,’ and about Hydrogen Sulfide. According to Bob Duchesne, ah, there is not that much hydrogen sulfide.”
Hillary: “You can go right to the D.E.P. website and prove that wrong.”
Q : “Really?”
Hillary : “All of the reports are right there. There’s some very high levels of Hydrogen Sulfide. And some of the highest levels are right by the James River house. Which was land, donated when Georgia-Pacific sold the, gave the dump to the State of Maine. They also donated land to the Cerebral Palsy Association of Maine for a house.”
Q : “They donated a house, for Cerebral Palsy?!”
Hillary : “Donated a house, which is the closest residential property to the dump. And it has very high levels of Hydrogen Sulfide being measured around there.”
Q : “So it’s not being all ‘flared off,’ before they…”
Hillary : “No. but they have to give any sort of reports. And I mean, they Hydrogen Sulfide ‘burps,’ so they flare as much as they can. But it also will just, they’re have ‘gas burps,’ basically, there’s ‘gas bubbles.’ And if you go to the D.E.P. website, look at Hydrogen Sulfide monitoring data. There’s some very serious spike . In residential areas.”
At this point we have a conversation about Pattie Aho Commissioner Department of Environmental Protection, and Samantha DePoy-Warren, Spokesperson and communications Director of the Maine D.E.P.. The details have been omitted due to a change of events that made the content no longer current. The interview picks up here:
Hillary: “One thing I just wondered is, if she is still listed as a registered as a Lobbyist for Pierce Atwood…”
Diane: “Can you find out?”
Hillary: “Well she’s listed as 2011, registry Lobbyist…”
Diane: “Well, Now currently?”
Hillary: ”…On a Maine Ethics website.”
Diane: “Why don’t we challenge that?”
Hillary: “Yeah. She’s no longer for Casella, but for other Pierce Atwood Companies. She’s listed as their registered Lobbyist.”
Diane: “How can she do that as head of D.E.P.? How is that legal?”
Hillary: “I don’t know. She’s however recused herself, and it’s just old data that I’m using. I don’t know.”
Diane: “She hasn’t been recusaling herself though. I’ve listened. I’ve sat there in testimony, like you have as well.”
Q : “Can you define what recusaling means?”
Diane: “Recusaling means if you have a personal interest in an issue being handled, because of you separate ‘expertise,’ or ‘involvement,’ as a Lobbyist or a consultant. That you are suppose to, first of all, make that known, on a particular hearing or through a certain action. And then recusaling, that second step, is to excuse yourself, mean, your taking yourself outside that processing. Saying: ‘I have a personal vested interest in this issue,’ and ethics would demand that you not be involved in it, in an official capacity.”
Q : “So that’s when Jim Freeman, probably said that: ‘that she didn’t find there was any conflict of interest. Even though it’s not what the public found.”
Diane: “That’s her decision. Which means…An example of that is ‘the fox watching the hen-house.’ It’s not for her to determine whether she does or doesn’t have an interest. It’s for an independent agency to say: ‘Yes, there is a personal interest.’ Not let her do it arbitrary, but to determine ‘yes,’ or ‘no’ whether there is a conflict there. And she would be compelled to recuse herself. It shouldn’t be put on a basis of the individual, should acknowledge it, first off and then second off, should decide whether it ‘is,’ or ‘isn’t,’ a conflict.”
Q : “And there was never an independent agency or…”
Diane: “No. No. Not in this case. And I…you can add a little bit further illumination to that.”
(Note to readers here is a link about Pattie Aho Lobbyist record:
http://www.mainecampaignfinance.com/Public/Lobbyist_profile.asp?ID=4 )
Hillary: “Well, I mean, it’s just the big, like you’re saying, with the probable elimination of the State Planning Office, the ownership and the oversight is going to go to D.E.P.. So any sort of decision of whether that is a conflict of interest, lies with the people who have the conflict of interest.”
Q : “Well I did speak to George MacDonald about what type of checking is being done at the Juniper Ridge Landfill. And I guess Maine Department of Environmental Protection actually does checking, some spot checking. But Casella does the checking. And the big issues I guess was: ‘If 50% of the trash that does into K.T.I., is not recycled, even if it’s fine dust,’ that can be considered as recycled and so forth, ah…”
Diane : “Huh?”
Q : “Yeah…right. If it’s 50% of the trash that goes into K.T.I., in Lewiston, when it comes out 50% has to be recycled. If they don’t, they lose their license. And what they can also consider as recycled, is the fine wood dust that can’t be burned. So they can actually dump that into the Juniper Ridge Landfill; but it’s still considered as recycled material.”
Hillary : “That’s daily cover.”
Diane : “Yeah, I’ve heard that.”
Hillary : “Plus that and the raw construction demolition debris, both of them, use them as daily covering. It counts towards recycling and that’s the big way that Maine’s recycling rates have gone way up. Well the actual recycling centers in Maine, the amount of recycling is going down, with everything switching to, ‘sing-stream.’ But they are able to make the rates on paper go up.”
Q : “ Now can you explain what, ‘daily covering,’ means?”
Hillary : “Yeap. It just that at the end of the day, they in Norridgewock they have a big tarp they cover it with. And then they also have other materials they cover it with, just so, the materials don’t blow away, and pack it down. Ammm…for Old Town they use, (background noise took out first word. Sounds like ‘blackened.’) construction demolition debris, and the ‘fines,’ and ash, and sometimes soil.”
Q : “Now are you folks familiar with how toxic incinerator ash is?”
Hillary : “Uh-huh.”
Diane : “Oh-yes.”
Q : “Can you go into more detail for our readers?”
Diane : “You’ve got the better knowledge on that.”
Hillary : “Yeap. The best study on that actually come out of the University of Maine and totally got buried. After there was the fire at the incinerator in Athens, part of the way Borolex paid for all the problems, that they had at that incinerator, they got $600,000 worth of fines. From it was like 6 weeks long fire in the fuel pile. Along with a bunch of problems with the burner itself. One of the ways they paid the fine, was by providing the materials for a study at the University of Maine on the safety of burning construction and demolition debris.” (Chuckles.)
Q : “Was that the, ‘Borelex Study?”’
Hillary : “Borelex. Yeap. Borelex and the University of Maine. And that study showed extremely high levels of all sorts of toxins. Ammm… Dioxins, P.C.B.’s in the incinerator ash and also in the emissions. Through there are some acute parts in that study, where the levels of certain, I think that was dioxins, were far over any State or Federal standards when they measured it at one point. So, they just went back and just measured further from the stack, and then it wasn’t over those3 levels.” (Chuckles nervously.)
Q : “So, what do you mean by, ‘further from the stacks?”’
Hillary : “Like originally they said, they just determined they measured too close to the stacks. They measured like within 12 feet from the stacks.”
Diane : “If a plume is going like so, and the drift carries it away…”
Q : “And that’s and Arching motion.”
Diane : “If they measure too close to the stack. They’re in a circle, where the ash or the material that is falling is not close to them. It’s much further away.”
Q : “Are you talking about the ‘fly ash?’”
Diane : “Yea. So, like Hillary just said, they were measuring, ‘too close to the stack.’ Because the, ah, it’s being propelled out of the top of the stack, and there is a certain amount of drift, and depending on how much wind there is, it’s carrying it further away. So if they are too close to the stack, they are not getting an accurate reading.”
Hillary : “They’re saying they got…it was too concentrated so they moved further away. ‘Dilution is the solution to pollution.’ And…” (Laughs.)
Q : “Well that doesn’t make sense, because I talked to the Air Program, ah, Manager of Penobscot Nation, Bill Thompson. He says that, ‘Because it’s got heavy metal in it, it’s not going to go far.”’
Hillary : “Um-Hun. Yea, I think that is another key piece, that’s just…Penobscot nation probably the only place, the only people up there who’ve been really doing keeping any solid track compiling data, of what’s actually coming out of that stack. They’ve had their own independent air testing up there. And when it came to the ‘lead/soot,’ incident, they had back in 2006. It was Penobscot Nation that had the readings, that showed the elevated levels of lead. Otherwise…”
Q : “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! I got to back up here, because I did try to confirm that. And they said, ‘ they didn’t find any at all.’ ‘Cuz remember, you said that thing about…”
Hillary : “Yeah.”
Q : “That big cloud of soot went over Indian Island?”
Hillary : “Yeap.”
Q : “I contacted them and they said, ‘No. It went all right over to Bradley.”’
Hillary : “Bradley, yup.”
Q : “But none of it fell on Indian Island, but none of it fell on Penobscot Nation land.”
Hillary : “Well, it was wherever Penobscot Nation’s air testing equipment was. Because it was their air testing data that was used to show the levels of lead.”
Q : “Because they said, ‘they didn’t find any.’”
Hillary : “Who said?”
Q : “Bill Thompson. The Air Program, ah, Manager.”
Hillary : “I know they didn’t find it in violation of the State’s limits, but they definitely did find lead. And I can find recordings of the hearings.”
Q : “Aaaaahhhhhnnnn.”
Hillary : “But it was not over level. It’s over…”
Diane : “So, if you’re at (point) .0001 under the violation level, Ummm…they say, ‘Oh, no problem.’ Like it doesn’t exist. But you know very well, when there is an allowable range, if your at the very, very top end of it; you’ve got something to be concerned about. Even if your technically not in violation of it. You should be looking at those numbers and taking remediating steps.”
Q : “Now, are you familiar with the test site, that the Maine Department of Environmental Protection’s got for collecting air samples over in Bradley?”
Diane : (Indicates no.)
Hillary : “Not that, no.”
Q : “O.K.. O.k.. Because I guess they, they installed that after, after the 2006 soot incident. And I guess according to Jim Freeman, when David Litell was the Maine Department of Environmental Protections Commissioner, he was put on the spot. People were asking him, you know, ‘Can I grow food in my Garden?’ He’s like. ‘I don’t know.’ Or, ‘Can my kids go out and play?’ –‘I don’t know.’”
Diane : “Soil. Test the soil. Any citizen can take a sampling of their soil and have the extension services have it tested. If you have any concerns, you should do that.”
Q : “Now were you surprised how, when that big cloud of soot came over Bradley, and they scooped it out of the snow. They said, ‘well it was improperly collected, and we can’t use these samples?”’
Hillary : “Yup, yup. I remember. That was, I mean all of the personal antidotes, that people had. People had ash in from attics too that they said, it wasn’t properly collected.’ They couldn’t prove that it came from that specific incident. So, any sort of independent, stuff that people brought in, it was just dismissed as, ‘not properly collected.’”
Q : “So if I talk to say, the Town Manager of Bradley, what do you think in your opinion, they would probably say about the ‘soot ash,’ and so forth?”
Hillary : “I’m not so…I don’t know the Town Manager of Bradley, so I don’t know. Ah, Ben Pratt, who was State Representative at the time, that’s where he sort of cut his teeth as State Representative at the time. He might be a good one, to…because he was at all the hearings after that happened. Bradley was in his district he was representing at the time.”
Diane: “ Is Ben going to run for re-election?”
Hillary : “No.”
Diane : “Shucks.”
Q : “Well ah, what do you folks think of the proposed Juniper Ridge Landfill expansion proposal that’s taking place? Do you think they’re actually going to do it or do you think they might have…”
Diane : “They’re trying. They’re trying. But ah, as Hillary and I have been to the past couple of meetings the community is ‘up in arms,’ against it, and ‘fighting tooth and nail,’ against it. Whether we’re going to succeed, what’s your opinion about that?”
Hillary : “I think also there’s industry against the expansion too now. Waste Management wants to have, they have their own gill in here to lift the ban on new commercial dumps. So they can do expansion in Norridgewock, but they don’t have nearly…It’s basically one or the other, expanses in terms of the waste market right now. So, last time the Casella expansion came up, it was some of the Waste Management lobbyists who helped to block that. Because they’re trying to get their own law changed, so they could do their expansion.”
Diane : “And not so, that they’re can be concerned about the public health…”
Hillary : “No.” (Laughs.)
Diane : “But just so they can make the profit instead of the other landfill operator. Isn’t that lovely?”
Q : “It’s confusing. So let me get this straight. Ah…”
Diane: (Laughs.) They’re jockeying against each other. Ah, Casella and whose the other?”
Hillary : “Waste Management.”
Diane : “Waste Management.”
Hillary : “The largest waste management corporation in the world.”
Diane : “Yeah, so, they’re challenging, that there should be no expansion here. Not because they’re guarding the public health. But because they want to prevent their competitor from getting ahead of them.”
Hillary : “Yup.”
Q : “But Waste Management is the world’s largest dealer in Nuclear, Chemical and General Garbage, and they got a headquarters in…”
Diane : “They want more! What? What about greed do you not understand?” (Chuckles.)
Hillary : “And this whole expansion thing they want to do in Norridgewock, it’s the brother-in-law, of the manager of the Norridgewock dump, the Waste Management dump; who owns adjoining property. That he wants to sell to Waste Management, to expand the dump onto.”
Diane : “So he makes big bucks, if he sells it and if they get the expansion as opposed to juniper Ridge. Then he gets his land sold for the expansion and he makes a bunch of money.”
Q : “So do you think Juniper, ah, Casella got grounds to sue the state if they are not allowed to, ah, go forth with their expansion and their 30 year contract? Because they paid the state to the tune of $26 Million dollars to, ah, have the rights and the privilege to operate Juniper Ridge Landfill?”
Hillary : “I think if they do, that would be a great basis to counter right back and try and get the…I mean, we’re already trying to get an (sounds like O.P.E.G.A.) investigation of the state’s contracts with Casella. I think that would be just perfect time to show how they’ve change the contracts constantly violated the contracts. I don’t think it’s in their best interests to sue the state. I think it would be bad ‘P.R.,’ for them.”
Q : “Speaking of which…I’ve been trying to do some investigation. Remember that meeting you said about Don Meagher back in 2003, supposedly meet with the State Planning Office and the Department of Environmental Protection, to redefine what, ‘in-state Maine waste is.’”
Hillary : “I’m still trying track that all down. That was from a B.E.P., hearing I was at.”
Q : “Whoa! Just for the record. You said you’re still trying to track that down?”
Hillary : “Yup, I’m still trying to track down that information. That information originally came from a B.E.P. hearing I was at in 2004.”
Q : “Is that D.E.P.?”
Hillary : “B.E.P.- Board of Environmental Protection. And this was I think when they were developing their rules on burning construction demolition debris. And just at that meeting, I think it might have been the first time I met Don Meagher. He was talking about how the definition of ‘in-state waste,’ came to be. And he said that, ‘they had…’ Someone had brought up, you know, ‘at hearings.’ And he had very specifically said: ‘No, there had just been meetings between…’ Either ‘Casella and D.E.P.’ or ‘Casella and State Planning Office, to develop rules.’ And I still can’t find anything in the Legislative record, that this went through any sort of hearing process.”
Q : “Because I did ask the State Planning Office about that. They said, ‘They have no idea about it.’ I asked Bob Duchesne. He says, ‘If it’s public record, it would be in public record.’ And then I posed the message to Samantha, over at the, ah, Maine Department of Environmental Protection. (Via E-mail.) And I guess she said: “There was no question that was asked, so there’s no way I can respond to that.” How do you feel about that?”
Diane : “Sounds like it’s time for ‘F.O.I.A.’”
(Note to readers: Freedom Of Information Act.)
Q : “Oh just for the record, Pattie Aho is walking by.”
Diane : “Yes, several times.”
Q : “Several times.”
Diane : (Deep Chuckles.)
(Door to the Natural Resource Committee shuts on tape as Pattie Aho goes back into that room.)
Hillary : “Another person…Have you interviewed Tome Federally at all?”
Q : “Who?”
Hillary : “Tom Federally.”
Diane : “He’s in there.”
Hillary : “He’s one of Casella’s lead lobbyists. He’s Baldacci’s former Attorneys.”
Q : “O.K..”
Hillary : “And he was head of ‘Maine Green Energy Alliance.’ Which they had the investigation over the misuse of public funds. They had to return the money to ‘Efficiency Maine Trust.’ Umm…”
Diane : “I’ll point him out to you, if you don’t know who he is.”
Q : “I have no idea, to be honest with you.”
Hillary : “He’s a good one to ask Casella questions to.”
Diane : “Oh yeah.”
Q : “So what do you think about this, this meeting that supposedly took place, and there is no one willing to talk about it, or no one that knows about it and so forth?”
Hillary : “I mean, I think that’s sort of a key piece in all of this. Because that definition of ‘in-state,’ and ‘out-of-state,’ waste is central to the fact that we have, any of this problem to begin with.” (Chuckles.)
Diane : “One thing we do know, is that it’s being severely abused. I mean, this ‘Hocus-Pocus,’ of bringing out of state waste in and transferring it to a Maine registered truck, and saying, ‘O.K., Maine in-state waste now.””
Q : “When you said, ah, ah, ‘Maine State Waste.’ Do you think it’s possible that individuals can prove, that 50% of the recycling is not taking place. And, if that stuff is being dumped on the highway, that Casella can get their license pulled, because they’re polluting the state, and so forth?”
Diane : “That’s going to take some real investigative journalism. That’s not an easy answer. That information is being well guarded of hidden and kept from public access. You might get somewhere with ‘F.O.I.A..’ With Freedom of Information Act, and digging up some documents. But if they really want to hide it, you’re going to have to do some deep digging.”
Q : “O.K.. Let me ask you one more question. Bob Duchesne actually came up with an idea. Jim Freeman said it was probably a good idea. Ah, going to the first rest stop, where the big sign is that says, ‘Welcome to Maine.’”
Diane : “You mean, ‘Maine open for business?”’
Q : “No. Well, yeah. The ‘Maine open for business,’ right. And then actually having somebody at the ramp. And when the trucks come in, if it comes in 3 hours later, going to the ramp, chances are it didn’t go to K.T.I., and having that as proof that these trucks are not stopping at K.T.I..”
Diane : “you can set up a surveillance camera. And there’s a whole bunch of ways of doing it. But something does need to be done, because the situation is being severely abused. Everyone there knows it. Go to the hearing. Have you been to any hearings up at Juniper Ridge? The landfill expansion?
Q : “None.”
Diane : “Ah. Well, they may have another one. I’m not really sure what the schedule is. I haven’t checked it recently. But, the folks there that have been following it for a length of time, I think it’s been since what? 2005? I think that’s when the expansion began. Are well aware that, ah, this most of this waste…I don’t know percentages. I couldn’t give you a definite number, but, ah, there is severs abuse of the system. That most of this stuff is not in-state waste. They’re getting around the law. There was a law passed, how much waste from out of state would be acceptable. Because, we could…well, I won’t speculate on that. I’m sorry. But, ah, they found a way around it. They simply just transfer trucks: ‘Hocus-Pocus.’ It’s out of state waste when it comes over the state border, but they transfer it into another vehicle that has a different
contract and a different registration, and all of a sudden it becomes Maine, ‘in-state waste?’ No. No. That’s not valid. People know it, but somehow they are continuing to get around it.”
Hillary Lister Interview
Q : “O.K., and Ummm…I’m talking to Hillary about the ‘East-West Highway,’ from Calais to Coleburns Gore and she’s going to give me some details about that.”
A : “Senator Doug Thomas, whose from Ripley, he’s sponsoring a bill for the state to spend $300,000 out of the general fund, to do a study for the company, the private company, that’s going to do this private ‘East-West Highway.’” (Chuckles.)
Q : “Now is that, ah, Cianbro that’s doing it or Irving?”
A : “Cianbro or some branch connected to Cianbro.” (Chuckles.)
Q : “Now did you hear there’s going to be no exits going on that thing?”
A : “That’s what I’d heard…The first I’d heard about it was at the New England Governors and Eastern Premiers Conference. Which was in 2008, I think? And there they were talking, I, I have to find a tape to actually confirm this; but they were saying between $35 and $70 toll. They were saying specifically, just it be it a commercial straight away for the Canadian trucks. And that’s been the big push…I mean, they have been pushing for this since the 1930’s. So, I’m kinda hopeful that it’s not going through, because they have been pushing for this over and over and over for decades.”
Q : “And they we’re talking about, ah, the energy grid, going also from along the highway, and it’s going to ‘T,’ off, I think…I can’t even remember where. But someplace that began with a ‘C,’ and it’s gonna go south from there and it’s just gonna follow the ‘East-West Highway,’ so we can export all our energy. Is that what you’ve heard?”
A : “I think a lot of the, Ummm…power line expansion, some of that might end up getting used in parts. It seems like that’s paralleling some of the parts they’ve wanted to do ‘East-West Highway,’ stuff on. And then, yeah, they’ve been talking about it being on energy corridor. So it would be: highway, pipeline, power line corridor. And basically looking at…there’s a model down in Texas that they’re looking at for.” (Chuckles.)
Q : “Now I e mailed, ah, today’s January 10th. And a couple of weeks ago, I e mailed the Department of Energy, to see if I could get a response about Paul McCarriers’ statement, and Jim Freemans’ statement that; most of the energy that we are producing a lot...I mean, the wind energy, except for Rollins in Lincoln, is going out of state. And yet the Governor, which just on the radio two days ago, was saying, ‘We have high energy costs and we have to do something about it,’ pushing for more energy. What’s going on here? I mean, we’re exporting energy…”
A : “Subsidizing the rest of the North East’s electric costs is the big thing. I mean, we are, I try…”
Q : “She said ‘we are subsidizing the rest of the North East’s electric…”
A : “Yup, I mean through I.S.O. New England, Maine has a very raw deal. We have some of the highest rates of any I.S.O. New England state. And we’re one of the largest producers, if not the largest producer for I.S.O. New England.”
Q : “Now can you say what I.S.O. is for our readers?”
A : “Ohh…I’m not sure.”
Q : “Or just give a general.”
A : “Oh it’s Ummm…the public-private association of energy producers, government people. Meets in Springfield Massachusetts to determine energy policy for the North East.”
Q : “O.K., and so, basically, ah, the boiler up in Old Town, that’s produces electricity too. Correct?”
A : “It does. And most of the…”
Q : “You said, ‘yes.’ Right?”
A : “Yes.”
Q : “O.K..”
A : “And I’m sure if it still is. I’m pretty sure in the past it was receiving renewable energy credits through the state of Massachusetts. Which a good portion of both the Burners, and Wind projects up here, they’re getting subsidized through Massachusetts renewable energy credits. Because Massachusetts id buying us electricity at a premium rate.” (Chuckles.)
Q : “So how’s that work, since they’re out of state?”
A : “Ummm…it’s a whole market. It’s like a stock market, the renewable energy credit market. So, you can just purchase renewable energy credits. Each state in New England has, Ummm…renewable energy mandate. That a certain percentage of their electricity has to come from renewable resources, and increasing in amount by the year. And they measure that through the renewable energy credit. So, a certain percentage of the state’s electric has to come from certified renewable energy credit power producers.”
Q : “O.K., so basically, the Governor says we need more electricity. Even through we’re exporting a lot of energy. We got the, ah, as of this date, he still might e-mail me, but we got the Department of Environmental…I mean, the Department of Energy, not responding to the exporting of Energy. We got the ‘East-West Highway,’ that’s going to help export more energy. And basically they are asking for more wind power. Does that sound about right?”
A : “That’s about right.” (Chuckles.)
Q : “Whoa. Do you have anything more to add about that?”
A : “Just that’s the…I mean Mane is already producing anywhere from 25% to over 60% more electricity than it produces…Than it uses in State. And I can find you some confirmation on that. That’s come up by a lot of these waste hearings and this will only be increasing the amount of electricity for out of state. Maine’s just not using that much. The same way they’re importing trash. Because Maine’s not producing much trash.”
Q : “So, we’re importing trash, and, but we can’t burn at Old Town. But they can…the…(Stumbles with words.)…Oh my gosh, this is getting confusing. But are burning the green wood pellets that produces electricity.”
A : “And we’re burning trash at a lot of other facilities…”
(Committee Gavel strikes a few times in the background.)
Q : “We got to cut this short. Thanks Hillary.”
Bill Armstrong
State Senator THOMAS B. SAVIELLO : “…And in the spirit of trying to get you ‘up to speed,’ because many of us, were not…well, none of you were here, when I was here; when all this started…(Note to readers: microphone was moved and muffled out a number of words.)…Next year, and then some of you are brand new at this. So, I think that it was appropriate to kinda, get you up to speed, as best I can. Errr…on the Land fill agreement, ah, the ah, with Casella, and how the state was involved. And so this is your time. Tell us what happened.”
Bill Armstrong from the Maine State Attorney Generals Office : (Laughs into microphone.)
State Senator THOMAS B. SAVIELLO : “And I’m sure we’ll have a bunch of questions, and if there are others in the audience that might be able to answer them, we’ll ask them. But this is really part of the sprit, of what I try to do is educate you , as we get ready to deal with some interesting issues. So, why don’t you tell us who you are.”
Bill Armstrong : “I will get…I’m ah, Bill Armstrong. I’m from the Attorney General’s Office; and I’ve been involved with the Juniper Landfill ever since its acquisition in 2004.”
Bob Duchesne : (Giggles.)
Bill : “Ah, and it’s ah, obviously a living vehicle that keeps coming up.”
(A number of committee members laugh.)
Bill : “Ummm…I know we first have to start, Errr…How did the state get involved with this land fill. And I think then Governor Baldacci, one of the things he was greeted with, was the fact that Georgia Pacific was going to shut down their Fort James plant in Old Town. And so, a lot of discussions were held, which I wasn’t privy to, but any way…(Pause.) In order to help them, essentially reduce the cost of energy, it would be helpful if they could bring a ‘Bio-Mass Generator,’ facility up to Old Town. And the deal was put together, that, Ummm…the State would buy the Landfill. Ah, the purchase money would then be used to, ah, acquire, a, ah, Bio-Mass facility; which was already built, and they were going to take it apart and move it from up from the State, down South. And that the State would then hire an operator for the landfill. And according to the Legislature, adopted a resolve in 2003, Chapter 93: Authorizing the State Planning Office to buy the Landfill. Or require a hiring operator and require the operator to identify the State in for a change, for environmental matters. Ah, Ummm…that the operator would be ah, determined by a competitive bidding process; and that the resulting arrangement was to be revenue neutral to the State. So there are the parameters which in…which the State Planning Office, Ah, had set for them in trying to acquire an operator. Ah, (pause,) A, ah, a request for proposals was issued, and, ah, we only got one bidder, which happened to be Casella. Ah, other, ah, there was (Note to readers: Nest word was said fast. It was either ‘a lot,’ or ‘a large,’ or something else here.) A meeting I attended in the Cabinet room, where all the possible act…persons interested in transaction had a chance to, ah, speak, and, ah, understand the, where this was headed. And despite all that only Casella, had put in a bid. But, other venders had expressed an interest, but there were certain elements involved in the ‘R.F.P.,’ which they didn’t want to undertake for various reasons.”
Tom Saviello : “So, even if we, had, we used to call it ‘middle of pre-payers conference.’ Where you kind of went through the parameters where the contractor of the proposed…where you had that kind of…”
Bill : “It wasn’t formally called that. In fact I was called to this meeting, kind of ‘cold.’ But that was my sense at that meeting and what was explained, what was going on here.”
Tom Saviello : “So they did explain that the four…”
Bill : “Yes.”
Tom Saviello : “…Pieces here…”
Bill : “Yeah, there was, was a general understanding…”
Tom Saviello : “That other people might be interested…”
Bill : “Right.”
Tom : “…In proposed buying or being involved in this that were at that meeting.”
Bill : “Yeah. (Short Pause.) And some of the…And some of thee requirements, that were now requested for proposals were : 1) You had to operate the Landfill. 2) You had to identify the State, as well as Fort James, for all past, present and future environmental liability. Ah, 3) You’re going to have to enter into a ‘fuel supply agreement,’ for the Bio-Mass facility. Ummm…and the fuel is to be construction and demolition debris; At a much marked down market price. Ummm…Let me get, get (Note to readers: Papers were being shuffled and obscured a word.) here. (Clears throat with sort pause.) There would be some, some of the tipping fees would be…would be, ah, limited; and that was negotiated. In addition there, there was an agreement between Fort James and Lincoln for disposal of their ash. And thee operator was going to be required to assume that contract. Ahmm…(short pause.)
So, there, there were/was sort of keys to what any operator would have to do and it was quite an undertaking to put in a proposal. At thee end of the day, ahmmm, and if the negotiations it turned out that the, ah, the ( Note to readers : inaudible word here. It sounded like ‘including.’) bid was to pay $26 million dollars for thee, ah, right to operate the plant. In exchange for that: they were given full operational control. Ah, they were to keep all the income. They were to pick up all thee expenses. The $26 million dollars was paid to Fort James. Which in turn bought them a Bio-Mass facility and moved it up to Old Town. So one of thee key elements of thee, ah, ‘R.F.P.’ Legislatures plan was put into effect, essentially. Ummm…
It’s important to note too, that the negotiations were essentially, tripartite. There was the State, there was Casella and Fort James. And those negotiations went on quite a while, over several days. So, (clears throat.) there were two agreements being negotiated, one an acquisition agreement, whereby the State would purchase the Landfill; and two, there was the operating services agreement with Casella. And if you look at those two agreements, you’ll see they more or less, they fit together. So, the promises the State made in the acquisition agreement were carried over into the operating services agreement.
So there are a number of other details in the contract if you want to know about them, I can answer, answer questions about them, but…” (Note to readers: inaudible mix of words here.) “…There was thee purchase price. The fixed tipping fee for Fort James, for their waste. Ah, and then a tier tipping fee depending on the amount of waste that was put in there. Ah, they assumed the Lincoln disposal agreement. Which, ah, they’ve agreed to take up to 600,000 tons per year. And there was a capacity credit given to Fort James for any year which they didn’t use the limit, that they were (Pause) they were put on there for disposable waste. Ah, (Pause) the…then Fort James and Casella negotiated separately, a fuel supply agreement. Which included a provision of construction demolition debris. After there wasn’t enough of that available. Then they could provide an alternative fuel; which was suppose to be wood…green wood chips.”
Tom Saviello : “Did they set a price on that?”
Bill : “Ah, the price was…the price was essentially transportation costs.” (Laughs.)
Tom Saviello : “So, ( Note to readers : Bill’s laughing or chuckling with that saliva sound drowning in his mouth to it, obscured a few words here.) they based it on…”
Bill : “Yeah.”
Tom Saviello : (First words inaudible here.) “…Casella…”
Bill : “Right.”
Tom Saviello : “…I think one rate for that was about, I think about ten or twelve thousand per month for C.D.D….”(C.D.D.-Construction and Demolition Debris.)
Bill : “Yeah.”
Tom Saviello : “And about 30 a ton for green waste…”
Bill : “Right.”
Tom Saviello : “…Green wood.”
Bill : “Yeah...” (Note to readers, two words following didn’t sound like real words. It sounded like: “ABBA DAB.” Which could have been: “About that.”)
Tom Saviello : “So the agreement they said, “We will pay…”
Bill : “Trans…”
Tom Saviello : “…To get your trash there.”
Bill : “Yeah, we will pay transportation mode.” (Chuckles.) “That’s what I’m getting at.”
Tom Saviello : (First words inaudible, then cut to:) “Do you know tons they were asking for? Was that…”
Bill : “It was a 100,000. I believe it was a 100,000. Yup. (Long pause.) And a critical piece, as I indicated earlier was, the identification provision; because as we are all familiar with, environmental liability can be huge at these sites. And Casella was required to identify and carry insurances, Ah, against some environmental liability. Protecting not only the State, but also Fort James/ Georgia Pacific.”
Tom Saviello : “So, they took it back to…”
Bill : “They…They…”
Tom Saviello : “The first day, the way Waste Management brokered it.”
Bill : “They just right. Yup. Yup.” (Note to readers : Pause and shuffling of papers here.) “I just got to check my notes here. Ah, another, another, important piece of the agreement was: that there was to be no price discrimination, ah, by Casella on tipping. In other words, whatever Casella affiliates brought to the Landfill, they would be charged the same price as everybody else who brought waste to the Landfill. Ahmmm…the other important provision that, ah, the people have talked about, is whether or not, additional fees could be imposed on Casella. And the understanding was, that they would pay fees for disposable waste, just like everybody else in the State and no additionals. That they wouldn’t be ‘singled out,’ because they are taking a particular type of waste. Which is consistent with the way most of the Legislation is drafted; and they have been paying fees over the years, yeah.”
Tom Saviello : “Senator Goodall has a question.”
Bill : “Yes.”
Seth Goodall : “I’m after a pacific point. Where does that say, Ummm…where is that stated in the contract?”
Bill : “It’s in section…”
Seth Goodall : “Is it an understanding, or…”
Bill : “Section 4-G. No it’s in the contract.”
Seth Goodall : “O.K..”
Bill : “Yeap, yeah.”
Seth Goodall : “I actually printed out the whole contract, so.”
Bill : (Chuckles.)
Tom Saviello : “He’s a Lawyer, and he likes to read almost everything.”
(Bill Armstrong and Bob Duchesne Laughs.)
Tom Saviello : “After the first 30 pages, I was sound asleep. I tried to read the next 5, and I said, ‘I’ll just leave it to him.’”
Bill : “Yeah, yeah, yeah.”
Tom Saviello : “4…” ( Note to readers : Inaudible here.)
Bill : “4-G.”
Tom Saviello : “Well, you’ll look for me; given that you stated the request.”
Seth Goodall : “Oh, yeah.”
Bill : (Laughs.)
Unidentified voice : “Ah, suppose there is no 4-G, and that they…”
Bill : (Shuffling papers.) “I’m sorry, I’ll find it in here. Let me look for it. What am I looking for? Well, here’s two…(Long pause and more papers being flipped through.) Find it, thank you. 31. There was an only reason…as I was getting to. So, page on page 21. Yeah, thanks George.”
Tom Saviello : “You’re a good man George McDonald.”
(Pause.)
Bill : “So that, provision states that the tipping fees…which were mentioned earlier, …’excludes of any fees, charges, levees, or assessments, which may be imposed by the State after the date, for the disposal at Landfills.’ In a sense, it probably could have been clearer, but the understanding was: there wouldn’t be any additional fees; just because they happened to be operating a State based landfill.”
Seth Goodall : “That would have been at ‘2-11,’ you said?”
Bill : “It’s on page 21 of the Operating Services Agreement.”
(Long pause.)
Seth Goodall : “Where were you…what subsection?”
Bill : “G.”
(Pause.)
Seth Goodall : “Yeah. (Pause) That wouldn’t included us through. That wouldn’t necessary include us from any additional fees. Whether those specific to Juniper Ridge or across the…”
Bill : “No, that’s correct, correct. Yeah, you could impose fees for all Landfills. They would be, then Casella would be required to.”
Seth Goodall : “But as a market participate, why couldn’t we assess a specific fee…” (Note to readers : Someone sneezed and blocked out a word and the rest sounded like:) “…Instead of registrating and entering in that window.”
Bill : “I’m sorry. Say that again.”
Seth Goodall : “If…since we are a market participate, we own the Landfill, under the Interstate Commerce Laws. And even in light of the contract, we could still assess the fees, pacifically on waste entering that Landfill. Couldn’t we? Why would we be precluded?”
Bill : “Why, I don’t know that I know the legal answer. But, I’m just…quickly it might be considered some kind of discrimination against…(pause) against the operator. Since the operator here is going to be required to pay a fee.”
Seth Goodall : “But, since we own that (note to readers: here is an inaudible word.) Landfill, how would that be…”
Bill : “I don’t know that the fact that we own the Landfill makes a difference. (Pause) It’s still, It’s still being operated as a Landfill, under the same rules and regulations as every other Landfill in the State. I mean, except for the fact that the State owns it, Casella has to comply with all the environmental rules. And had applied for the State a Compliance License. Because, Casella has to comply with other conditions. So in that respect, It’s no different than any other landfill.”
Seth Goodall : “So since we’re…Errr…(Sound of papers flipping.) are you saying that, ‘since we are…’ just because we are the owner of the landfill, you’re saying that, are…’just because we are the owner of the landfill, you’re saying that, are…we don’t have any…right to. To potentially manage that landfill differently and other landfills in the state?”
Bill : “As a contractual matter we may; but right now we have a contract with Casella with this provision in it.”
Seth Goodall : “but under our Sovereign immunity, can’t we…ah, override that contract? (Pause.) and that’s one of the questions, that’s come up, time and time again, during see…conversations.”
Bill: “Well, after I’m done with this question, I’ll try to answer whether you can…(Chuckles.) whether that would impair this contract. I mean this is a commercial contract, the State just happens to be a party to it.”
Seth Goodall : “Sure, but wasn’t that answered decided though, in the ‘Car Test Case,’ of the 90’s? We have the ability to…”
(A female near a committee microphone laughs.)
Seth Goodall : “…Over…(quick pause.) ride contracts? I mean this is the heart of what sort of conversations we’ve had.”
Bill : “You have the ability, Yes, theoretically.”
Seth Goodall : “Well, (Pause.) I mean, under, (Pause.) the fact, I mean, Sovereign immunity with the State was specifically contemplated in the contract. Under one of the sections.”
Bill : “Well, (Pause.) yeah, you’re right. Sovereign Immunity, has been preserved, under this contract. But, in a ‘contract world,’ as of course looked at it, and they have recognized that in Maine, that you…Errr…, ah, of private vendors enters into an agreement with the State, at risk; ‘cuz the Legislature now at any point may withdrawal funding. Unless, of course, that a contingency is covered in a contract; and what they are going to, is this provision, we’ve addressed that issue, as to ‘additional fees.’ (Pause.) So you would actually be impairing this contract. Now this is just my ‘off the cuff,’ opinion.”
Seth Goodall : “Sure.”
Bill : “Yeah, Ummm…impairing that contract, if you suddenly…If there was a decision today, ‘we’re going to impose fee, on a State owned Landfill…’ that would influence, no doubt, any vendor who said, ‘Now wait a minute…if I’m going to do business with the State, I may have to look hard at that.’”
Seth Goodall : “No, of course. I mean…”
Bill : “Right.”
Seth Goodall : “…this is why you’re here, so.”
Bill : “But, I mean that be an admen…that would require an amendment to this contract. If you’re going to do that, I think.”
Seth Goodall : “So, since you, ah, pointed out to the amendment, (Pause.) the two of them that have been signed. The amendment that was signed, the second amendment, Ahmmm…the language in that differs from what, (pause.) that …how would you, the intent, of the underlining operating service agreement? Meaning, you articulated that the underlining Operating Service Agreement, talked about supplying the Mill with, ah, ‘C.N.D.,’ to burn. But that second amendment, actually specifically, talks about, Ummm…expanding ‘C.N.D.,’ processing facilities… (Note to readers: Obscured words here. It sounds like ‘In Hamden.’)…the mill doesn’t need it. Ummm…Casella can continue to, ah, process ‘C.N.D.’ in the state. Could you explain how the history behind the amendment; how they came about, and what the rationale is, similar to how you explained how…”
Bill : “ I, I, I don’t recall that offhand. No.”
Seth Goodall : “So, you weren’t part of that amendment?”
Bill : “Well, I saw the amendment, but I don’t recall the negotiations…or when…I wasn’t involved in the negotiations, or went into that one…no.”
Seth Goodall : “Alright.”
Senator Tom Saviello : “In the, ah, agreement, how was the amendment latter, the, Ummm…let me get this right…Red Shield was…were the energy was going to be provided to…My understanding is that, there was not…when they were going to burn, but the Boiler was the cost. The Boiler they got to burn the ‘C.N.D.’…”
Bill : “Right.”
Senator Tom Saviello : “…So there was an agreement to bring it in…to bring it to this boiler. Boiler never made ‘mustard.’ But, there still was the agreement, that says: ‘They were going to bring that fiber in to be burned there. And, when they thought it could be burned.’ Because my understanding, that there wasn’t enough ‘C.D.D.,’ material created in the State of Maine, that would meet the requirements of 100,000 tons that you described.”
Bill : “That’s my understanding; and that’s why there was a provision for an alternative fuel to be brought in. Alright.”
Senator Tom Saviello : “George, I think you know that the…”
Bill : “George knows all this.”
Senator Tom Saviello : “…If I may just have you…for this particular question. (Pause.) My understanding is, that there’s about 100,000 tons of , Ummm…material processed, ‘C.D.D.,’ that was going to be allotted to be burned, and we didn’t have enough of that currently generated in the state. Is that correct?”
George MacDonald : “Correct. Ah…George MacDonald, State Planning Office, in response to the question. There was enough raw ‘C.D.D., available in the State that Casella could access to produce the 100,000 tons of ‘C.D.D. fuel wood,’ anticipated through the agreement.”
Tom Saviello : “I’m sure we’re have more questions for your testimony. You’re very credible. I just wanted to be clear on that.”
(Either Bill or George chuckle.)
Tom Saviello : “And he’s perfect for that.”
George MacDonald : “Yes, thank you.”
Tom Saviello : “I just…Representative Duchesne.”
Representative Bob Duchesne : “Thank you, ah, Senator. Bring this back to the feed bill that’s in front of us. Which is the reason for the discussion. Ah, we heard from the truckers…They’re really concerned that if we pass fee’s, they’re going to get burned by this because they’re going to be, (pause,) unable to compete with Casella and it’s, Ummm…and it’s other, Ummm…entities. Ummm…because they would have a, a, market capacity, ah, to, ah, be able to offer, Ummm…cheaper disposal. So, they feel that they’ll be at a disadvantage. The contract says, that, Ummm…’Casella can’t price, or discriminate on price or entry.’ They don’t believe it. I’m trying to test it. (Laughs.) To see whether, this is really an enforceable part of the contract. So, let me ask you a couple of things about that. Ummm…page 13 of the contract, says, ‘No price of entry discrimination.’ That’s pretty clear. (Short Pause.) Also the contract and the amendments reference, a processing facility somewhere in the State. Where all the imported waste is going to come to this facility. It’s going to process fuel out of it and then the reside is going to go to Juniper Ridge. So, they’re intertwined. The question, I guess I have is, can…(short pause.) The operation of K.T.I., and CAs…and the landfill together, price discriminate of cause entry discrimination. Ummm…could you, raise your fees so high at Juniper Ridge, that it’s cheaper, normally to take it to K.T.I., but they can price discriminate, legally?”
(Pause, and then Bill laughs, then Bob Duchesne laughs.)
Bill : “Yeah, I’m not so sure I know where your…or, understand where you are going with that. I mean, we’re talking with the price…the price discrimination obviously, with Casella is the tipping fee itself.”
Bob Duchesne : “The tipping fee and the Landfill.”
Bill : “The tipping fee, not the Landfill.”
Bob Duchesne : “What I’m saying is, could these work together in such a way, that the truckers are right? There could be discrimination that would not, Ummm…be legally challenge-able?”
Bill : “I don’t know the answer to that, no.”
Bob Duchesne : “So that, perhaps if you had a reason to be nervous, I mean, I, I, I’m thinking of the different scenarios. Ummm…on how this could happen. Ummm…Casella says that, ah, because of these fee’s our costs have gone up, we’re going to have to pass this onto our customers than we normally would. So, the fee’s that they’re charging the truckers goes up. Ummm…goes up even more than what they are charging themselves. How would we know? How could you enforce that? Do we track price? Do you…Is there anything…It’s part of the contract.”
Bill : “It’s part of the contract. How the price is set.”
Bob Duchesne : “How would we know? (Chuckles.)”
Bill : “Right. With an escalator clause.”
Bob Duchesne : “Yeah.”
Bill : “That’s in the contract...”
Bob Duchesne : “Yeah. MM-Hun.”
Bill : “…with the tipping fee. That’s correct.”
Bob Duchesne : “So, ahmmm…the operation of K.T.I., and Juniper Ridge Landfill; is such that they are offering themselves a lower price, but it just doesn’t show up, in a way that’s legally enforceable, because part of that is involving K.T.I.. I’m not still making that clear, am I?”
Bill : “No, I don’t think so.”
Bob Duchesne : “No.” (Chuckles.)
Bill : (Chuckles.)
Tom Saviello : “Let’s try again.”
Bob Duchesne : “Let me back up and take another running start.”
Bill : (Deep chuckles.)
Bob Duchesne : “Ummm…the concern for the truckers is, these two entities work jointly. Ah, waste comes into either one of these facilities. The tipping price is about the same at K.T.I., as it is at Juniper Ridge. But, Ummm…Let’s say the price now goes up. Because Juniper Ridge has to make up thee, oh…what they were, ah…thee, Ummm…the additional…ah, revenue they are losing, because of the new solid waste fee’s we put in place, and they pass that onto the truckers. They can’t get a price break at K.T.I., the way Casella’s customers could. Ummm…so they do end up ‘swallowing it.’ Is that, discrimination, out of this contract? (Pause.) Oh, don’t make me try a third time.”
Bill : “No. I won’t make you try a third time.”
Bob Duchesne : “Maybe, I might…yup.”
Bill : “It’s…”
Tom Saviello : “Let me try.”
Bob Duchesne : “Try, yeah.”
Tom Saviello : “O.K., we’re, we’re talking about putting a dollar fee / tipping, ah, tipping fee on any ‘C.D.D.,’ that goes from processing residual that goes to a Landfill, period. Which would meet the contract obligation here, that’s for everybody. They have K.T.I., which is not the Landfill, so they have to eat the dollar up here. But, what they could do, is to make up the difference is, raise the price at K.T.I., a dollar…”
Bill : “Mm-Hun.”
Tom Saviello : “…To say, and so, it is…so, the question that I think Bob, was asking is, ‘Is that discrimination or is K.T.I., out, out of the picture,’ if I said that right.”
Bob Duchesne : “Almost, though, go the opposite direction. Actually, they raise the price at Juniper Ridge, but lower the price at K.T.I., where they can discriminate. They can say: ‘I’m sorry, your waste doesn’t, doesn’t have enough good stuff in it, we won’t take your waste. But, we’re take an identical load from Massachusetts and have them pay a lower price for it. They can discriminate there, in a way, that they can’t at Juniper Ridge, because of the way they support them together. And…”
Bill : “Well, it’s working together in your scenario, but contractually, it’s not working together as a separate entity down there.”
Bob Duchesne : “Mm-hun. So, even though, the contract that thee…the operating services agreement…”
Bill : “Right.”
Bob Duchesne : “…Contemplates that these facilities will exist and will operate in concert. They are not captured by the language in the ‘O.S.A.’” (Note to readers: O.S.A. could mean Operating Services Agreement.)
Bill : “I would say they are not captured.”
Bob Duchesne : “The price…”
Bill : “That’s right, they are not captured by it. No.”
Bob Duchesne : “O.K.. I’ll probably return to that after.”
Tom Saviello : “O.K.. I, I, I do want to go back to…a comfortable in…to put this…I want to go back to something, that I want to make sure I’m comfortable with, quickly…”
Unidentified Voice : “Right.”
Tom Saviello : “The agreement was for 30 years. Correct?
Bill : “ Yes.”
Tom S : “So, even though the landfill capacity at the time of the agreement was signed, did not pay for the 30 years.”
Bill : “I…yeah.”
Tom S. : “They had…”
Bill : “The license capacity at the time of the contractors had not get ‘em out to 30 years. That’s right.”
Tom S : “So, if they had some…there’s some…they took this agreement with the state with the idea of, they’re probably going to be licensed be able to get licensed eventually for 30 years.”
Bill : “Yes. And the contract does, errr…under….contemplated an application to expand the capacity.”
Tom S : “And it did, I think, soon after they did expand the capacity at the one time; and then, there’s a pending application that’s presently out these. Is that correct?”
George Mac Donald : “The landfill originally was permitted for somewhere around 30 million cubic yards, 3.3; and there was an amendment to increase that capacity, early on the process.”
Tom S : “I see. And there was another one that was out there, that is pending…that has been temporally turned down turned down…or turned down, or…”
George Mac Donald : “There is a public determination application, ah, waiting for the departments review.”
Tom S : “O.K.. And there was a…there’s also ‘host community payment,’ that takes place; as part of this agreement.”
Bill : “Yeah. There’s two host community benefits agreement. One with Old Town and one with Alton. That they’re…that…they’re fulfilling.”
Tom S : “Do you know what that amount to?”
Bill : “I do.” (Good size pause, while papers are being flipped right next to tape recorders microphone.)
well, since 2004, with the City of Old Town, they’ve paid 7.6 million dollars; and Alton they’ve paid, ah, roughly $488,000.”
Tom : “Is that on going?”
Bill : “Well, this is a total over the years. Thee…is a …fee imposed, on…based on disposed of amounts. (Long pause.) and in addition to that, they’ve, you know, they would, they’ve made land…property…they brought some property up there. For their neighbors of the landfill wanted to sell it. And they’ve bought some bottled water for people who wanted water.”
Tom : “Is that an agreement; or did they do that on their own?”
Bill : “I think it was a obligation of the State, that they picked up.”
George Mac Donald : “That’s outside the…”
Bill : “Yeah, it’s out. It’s outside the contract.”
Tom : “It’s outside the contract?”
Bill : “Yeah…So, over all those, those various expenses, well as a special waste that they’re paying on waste,; like everybody else. They’ve put in over the total of over 15 million dollars, in addition to the 26 they’ve already paid.”
Tom : “And are they putting money away in escrow now for closure and other potential liabilities? Is that, being charged to them now, or is that…”
Bill : “And that would be…That’s part of the license with D.E.P..”
(Long Pause.)
Tom : “Other questions? Representative Duchesne.”
Representative Bob Duchesne : “Thank you Senator. I’ll take another run down from a slightly different angle. If I could do any better than I did last time. ‘Amendment B,’ ah, page 2, Errr…section 6A. ‘Casella agrees to exercise commercial and reasonable efforts to use Maine C.D.D.’ It’s not happening. They, other waste that would end into Lewiston, ah, and 11% was from Maine, the rest was from out of State. Ah, when we, probed this last time, in our last work session. Casella says, ‘They would love to get more Maine waste.’ Then we asked the truckers, the truckers say. ‘they won’t take it, because we’ve already removed some of the recycled content…contents…ah, So we have to take it up to Juniper Ridge.’ When you, when ah, grill the truckers further, Ummm…the substitution is that the waste that’s coming across the border, is identical to what’s coming from the local Maine haulers. That some of the content has already been removed down in Massachusetts too. In essence, the two wastes are identical, but they’re telling Maine, they won’t take it; they’re telling Massachusetts they will. Is that discrimination? You know, they’re using their , (very short pause.) subsidiary to do, ah…what they can’t do at Juniper Ridge, discriminate.”
Bill : “Under the contract, no.”
Representative Bob Duchesne : “It’s not discrimination?”
Bill : “No.”
Representative Bob Duchesne : “Right.”
Bill : “I say..got…you get rid of…you’re going to try. (Note to readers: multiple people laugh distorting next set of words.) Yeah…Is there any way we can bring the other one in here, but I don’t think we can do that.”
Representative Bob Duchesne : “O.K.. So, what I’m trying to establish is, is it possible, for discrimination, and price discrimination to happen, within the construct of what we have in the state right now in the contract, and the answer appears to be…’yeap.’ And if it is possible, how does it happen?”
Tom : “Senator Goodall.”
Senator Seth Goodall : “One of the issues that have come up, from time and time again is, the issue of where the contract is silent; and since we own the landfill. –The State of Maine. What ability do we have to regulate it, ahhh…uniquely different from other landfills in the state? Since we are a market participant, you know, under the Commerce clause, since we’re the landlord in that aspect. What can we do to, ahh…require the operator of the landfill to do certain things?”
Bill : “Well, I guess the first thing you can do is to be able to look at the (Note to readers sounds like “Stationatory,” but I could be a real word that sounds similar.) authorization for the state to acquire the landfill, and then what parameters you put around that. Once you’ve put that in place, then that would be the subject of negotiation…and then any vender would have to comply with those. That would put contra…There’s two acts that would be legislation; plus thee contractual elements…(Pause.) that would put in place. And depending on what you propose, which I couldn’t…you know, there probably be some question about whether you were capable of doing something on the Legislative end.”
Senator Seth Goodall : “Ah, one of the issues that are contemplated is looking for, respectively in regards to, what Ummm…how the key structure of…(Note to readers: microphone interference here.) …in regards to, of accepting waste there. I mean, we have a not too…( Note to readers: next two words sounds like ‘Seave rate.’ or 'Succeed -rate,') … on some of the...Ahhh...one of the issues, that have come forward, time and time again is, (Note to readers, microphone does not pick up well her. cuts to:) And many argue on whether there, around this horseshoe…(Note to readers, Seth maybe referring to the configuration of the Committee charis are set up around their tables; and another note to readers: sneeze near microphone obscured next word.)…Industry,
the lack of (Note to readers, next word sounds like either ‘plore,’ ‘floor,’ or ‘poor,’) has altered the marketplace. Ummm…therefor we have the responsibility as Legislatures to try to address going forward, in some form or fashion. Some say, ‘That if you charge fee’s that that, (note to readers few words that follow were too fast to translate.)…across the board, we could change, or fix that market eventually.’ Others say that, ‘Why don’t we just address, Ummm… the issues specifically, at Juniper Ridge.’ How do you respond to that?”
Bill Armstrong: “So, those would be, because it’s a State owned Landfill? You’re going to set different…You’re going to set particular rules and apply for that, including some fee arrangement.”
(Pause.)
Seth Goodall: “Correct.”
Bill Armstrong: “Well, you may be able to do that. But the question would come: ‘Are you going to find an operator under those circumstances?’ I mean, you’re…When (Note to readers: next single word is inaudible.)…a commercial market, you’re going to be a player in the commercial market. Means, you have to get a proposal out there and some, ( Note to readers next single word is inaudible.)…is suppost to bid on. If it’s two owners, why would anyone want to operate the landfill?”
Seth Goodall: “Right, that’s…that’s obviously the original take.”
Bill Armstrong: “The other, (Note to readers, next word sounds like: ‘al to shure,’ or ‘off to sure.’)…Would be the State decide they would want to operate the landfill.”
Seth Goodall: “Very true.”
Bill Armstrong: “Right.”
Seth Goodall: “But, we as also, have a responsibility to try and regulate the solid waste deal, in the best interest of Maine. So, what’s the deal of that potentially, Ummm…the lack of consideration of certain components of the contract, have created, as I said, an excellent one comes to mind, at least, that they might want to try and slow down, that results…”
Bill Armstrong: “Right.”
Seth Goodall: “Filling up our air space, at a fast rate. Do you believe…that’s kinda, (Note to readers, next set of 2 or 3 words are inaudible.)…decision we follow.”
Bill Armstrong: “True, but that’s the policy of the decision. I can’t re-write any…how you want to…How you want to impact the market for waste…waste disposal in Maine. A decision was made a long time ago, that in one way to impact the market was not to permit any more commercial landfills. So, you put itself in this position that you’re describing, by describing that. If you want to alter that market that…that would be one change. That dynamic you’re…you’re have to live with I suppose.”
Seth Goodall: “What would happen in regards to the contract, if you went in and changed the definition of, ‘out-of-state’ waste?”
Bill Armstrong: “So that?...”
Seth Goodall: “So that it would have, some would argue, to have an material impact on the State.”
Bill Armstrong: “Because it would adversely affect their ability to operate the landfill successfully.”
Seth: “Alright.”
Bill Armstrong: “I expect we’ll get a phone call about re-negotiating a contract. (Pause.) I don’t mean to be cynical, but if I’m Casella, and the contract has certain divisions about, you know, State wide decisions that may impact…impact their operation, will be looked at, I can’t go on without looking, but that was something that was recognized when we were negotiating the contract. But it’s conceivable that the State could decide to do something that would adversely affect their ability to comply with the terms of the contract.”
Seth: “Or…a system complying, or a system in there, operational facilities in Maine as of June 2007 by changing those definitions about out of State waste. I mean it could go both ways, is my point.”
Bill Armstrong: “Right.”
Seth: “Yeah.”
Senator Tom Saviello: “In the agreement in 2007, also looks at their…Red Shield was in the picture…can…came in the picture, a deal agreement was in…had to be transferred. Is that two thousand and…”(Note to readers: Tape recorder microphone is right next to Bill Armstrong. Hence, when bill cuts off Tom Saviello, what Tom Saviello continues to say cannot be picked up on the recording.)
Bill Armstrong: “Theirs is separate. There’s…there is a few fuel supply agreements at the moment. One, was with Georgia Pacific and the second was with Red Shield when they came on.
Tom Saviello: “Didn’t they also create a sort of, then agreement that would automatically block…(Note to readers: Next word was either obstruction or destruction.)…to the new owners, the patriarch…I mean that, that agreement had to be transferred, isn’t that part of, one of those things, that…that recognizes that was a…a transferable item.”
Bill Armstrong: “Yeah, the…the Casella would, Yeah. I mean, no matter who the owner was, Casella is going to enter into a fuel supply agreement.”
Tom Saviello: “Currently, are they providing fuel to, ah part they care, under the agreement? What are they paying to the patriarch?”
Bill Armstrong: “I don’t know.”
Tom Saviello: “I think it’s a million dollars a year.”
Seth Goodall: (Note to readers. What was said was way too fast to translate up until) “to know a specific question…about that? Is that…and, I don’t know that answer. Is that an obligation under the contract? Do they pay that or no?”
Bill Armstrong: “No, the obligation…the obligation was to meet the fuel requirements of the…(Note to readers: last word in the sentence was too obscured to understand.)…Pegged at 100,000 tons a year.”
Seth: “So, (very short pause.) their agreement to pay, rather than supply the wood is something separate outside of the contract.”
Bill Armstrong: “Yes, but that, as I said, that contract is between Casella and…and Red Shield. And Red Shield had some rights. Obviously they were a third party beneficiary of the operating services agreement. But, they can decide, they don’t want to do that anymore and negotiate something different with Casella. I don’t think that defeats the purpose of the contract. As you know, the contract was to get low cost energy to Old Town; and if that hasn’t worked out, for whatever reason, the Parties have to, you know, make some other arrangement according to the, the facility.”
Seth: “Perhaps switching gears would be…” (Note to readers: next few words inaudible to ‘pick up.) “…this is going to be a valuable exercise whether it’s focusing on Juniper Ridge or whether or not moving forward are two different…or top compatibility if there is, Ummm… at this point it might surprise for compatibility as well Ummm…there’s an example: under the contract Casella is suppose to be using it’s best efforts depend itself to promoting the hierarchy we have in this state. Ummm…some would argue that…that may not be occurring, as a result of Ummm…the way waste maybe going in there. So at what point, do we have a responsibility to…” (Note to readers: next word was either literally, essentially or naturally.) “…step in and make sure that doesn’t occur?”
Bill Armstrong: “Well, I’d say we have the responsibility now. I’m not, obviously involved what kind of waste in going in there, so that would be something they can explain and to look at, yeah.”
Seth: “So, if we determine that, the way the waste stream is going in there, are not in the best interest of the hierarchy…what are our options to correct them? In your in your opinion.”
Bill Armstrong: “Well, my opinion is, we would have to talk to Casella and try to foresee how to enforce those obligation and alter the way they manage their waste…yeah.”
Seth: “Which would include…”
(Pause.)
Bill Armstrong: “Well, there’s no provision in the contract for sanctions, when say they are, in breach of the contract. That’s…way down the road before you, figure out, that in fact, they haven’t complied with that term.”
(Long pause.)
Tom Saviello: “Representative Duchesne.”
Bob Duchesne: “Thank you.”
(Note to readers: Bill Armstrong said something totally unrecognizable. It was as if he started to say something but stopped to let State Senator Tom Saviello talk.)
Tom Saviello: “”…and how you are going to address this committee on planning this...”
Bob Duchesne: “Yeah.”
Tom Saviello: “…is interesting of not. I don’t want to waste your time on this. But I’m trying to get you all on the same page. So, you know, everything that’s buried on the same page, I antipate that might come up.”
Bob Duchesne: “Yes, thank you Senator. You may read the contract that this is answering some questions, that I couldn’t get my arms around either. It’s entry some discrimination in price and stuff, but you know, according to Senator Goodall’s point: ‘Casella has agreed to support a hierarchy,’ yet there’s a lot of opponents who have concerns that a lot of, oversized bulky waste has got in there that, you know, (Pause) took up awful lot of landfill space and there’s opposition that says: ‘it came across the border already pretty dirty, got minimally processed. What I’m referring to happened at K.T.I. in 2010; because they’ve really improved their process at that center. They…there’s some focused on their facility, but essentially… a lot came across the border, not much fuel was made out of it and it went up to Juniper Ridge. Ummm…that doesn’t seem to support a hierarchy. Is there any structure in place for us to enforce that part of the contract? Is the Attorney General’s Office watching regularly, the State Planning Office… watching? If somebody raised their hand and said: ‘Wait a minute: Foul! –Heh!’ How does that happen?”
Bill Armstrong: “Well, it’s not the Attorney Generals Office.”
Bob Duchesne: “O.K. so…”
(Note to readers: Bill Armstrong chuckles covering some of Bob Dushesne words. Then Bob Dushesne chuckles himself, until here:)
Bob Duchesne: “So, is it George?” (Chuckles.)
(Note to readers: “George,” is George Mac Donald, from the Maine State Planning Office.)
Bill Armstrong: “Yes.” (Chuckles.)
Bob Duchesne: “Of course!” (Laughs.) Somebody said: ‘Jeez, we’re taking up a lot of air space. Ah, we’re not really seemlingly honoring our hierarchy. That’s in violation of page 24 of the contract.’ Ah, who does that?”
George MacDonald: “The Maine State Planning Office.”
Bob Duchesne: “We’re going to miss you when you’re gone.” (Chuckles.)
Tom Saviello: “He’s not going anywhere.”
Bob Duchesne: “He’s not going anywhere.”
Bill Armstrong: (Chuckles.)
Bob Duchesne: “It’s a life sentence.” (Laughs.)
Bill Armstrong: (Laughs, like he’s just heard something truly funny.)
Tom Saviello: “Other questions? Anything…(Note to readers: inaudible words spoken until here:) “…you’d do is too paranoid to understand.”
Bob Duchesne: “I, I got a…”
Tom Saviello: “No, you’re done. Go ahead.”
Bill Armstrong: (Chuckles.)
Seth Goodall: “Ah, I’m sorry. Regarding page 23…of the contract.”
(Pages shuffling.)
Bill Armstrong: “O.K.”
Seth Goodall: “This is under sub-section A. It talks about tipping fees for disposal of waste that’s not…” (Note to readers: on tape it sounds like “F-J waste.”)
Bill Armstrong: “Mm-Hunh.”
Seth Goodall: “So, fall under ah, waste that puts down specific, ahhhh…types, including ‘C & D.’ Now, this paragraph following the bullets of subject notices under the obligations under the sections of 2. 3. 00 or for tipping fees of not conceived fees, being under its Maine’s special term of ‘home fees,’ are exclusive that… (Note to readers: series of words were said way too fast to understand.) “…State or other laws enacted or regulated, or propagated accurate…” (Note to readers: next word was either “effectively” or “to affect.”) “…Maine, would salvage some annual adjustments according to the…”
(Note to readers: unidentified voice cuts in to override Seth’s voice until here:)
Seth Goodall: “…And such be changed law, which determined by…” (Note to readers: a few words were obscured here.) “…destruction of operator disclosure. How do you interpret that? Ah, to potential prohibit or allow us to change?”
(Really long pause here.)
Bill Armstrong: “I got to have a chance to look at it though. I think you could swipe through it. Like you said, you can change the fee structure but the…” (Note to readers: next word or words was either, “contemplate or “kind of place.”) “…you’re going to change the fee structure Statewide, -you go after certain waste. As I said earlier, if you start enacting laws that, in effect, address this kind of material, that affects their cost, they’re going to be able to come in and then try to negotiate that. So, that they can, you know, get a fair return on their investment.”
Seth Goodall: “And the risk is, just like it was with the ‘Car Test,’ course, ah, litigation, or re-negotiate of contracts. Ahhmmm…but, that’s a risk the Legislature always has to take, when we do work as a prime actor.”
Bill Armstrong: “Right.”
Seth Goodall: “Just as a prime actor has to assume the risks, when in negotiating with the State. That, the State, may change their laws. Or…or not fund the contract. As you mentioned…”
Bill Armstrong: “Yeah, and this provision seems to of, address, that issue, head on. If you’re going to start changing the laws, You’re cost…raise the cost of us, for that landfill, then we’re going to re-negotiate. –Key structure.”
Seth Goodall: “O.K...”
Bill Armstrong: “Yeah. In other words, that…that, that possibility was foreseen. That the Legislature may change the way you’re going, you know, want landfills to be managed.”
(Long Pause.)
Tom Saviello: “Senator Duchesne.”
Bob Duchesne: “Thank you Senator. These are for George. Ahmmm…On pricing, does the State Planning Office actually monitor what the price is being charged, so that you can prepare what, Ummm…Troy-on is being charged per ton, versus, Pine Tree Waste?”
George MacDonald: “We get regular updates as to what those fees are. Yes.”
Bob Duchesne: “So you would know. You would be able to compare to see if price discrimination is happening.”
George MacDonald: “On a broad base, yes.”
Bob Duchesne: “On a broad base.”
George MacDonald: “Not on a broad basis... (Note to readers next words sounds like, “Road by Road.”) “…broad base.”
Bob Duchesne: Would you happen to have any idea what the gross revenue is? For Casella at Juniper Ridge?”
George MacDonald: “No.”
Bob Duchesne: “Or do we have any idea what the…the market value for a landfill sale would be for an asset?”
George MacDonald: “there are people here who could assess a value for the landfills, so…”
Bob Duchesne: “Right.”
George MacDonald: “…We have a …”
Bob Duchesne: “We never actually. We don’t even know the value of our own asset at this point. And I’m not going to hear…I’m just saying I’ve been at this for 8 years, and I couldn’t even tell you how much it’s worth. (Bob almost chuckles here.) Thanks.”
Tom Saviello: “I got a question…”(Note to readers: a chair squeaked next to a microphone and blocked out a few words here until:) “…Can…can…(Note to readers: question was obscured and the only words understandable is:) “…Can take their stuff from Massachusetts.”
George MacDonald: “Yeah.”
Seth Goodall: “That’s why, so…they can bypass…right?”
George MacDonald: “Your definition of ‘by-pass,’ is, in statue. Our operating services agreement says: ‘Out of State generated waste is excluded waste.’”
Tom Saviello: “’By-pass’ is defined out.”
George MacDonald: “it was changed in 2007 to include, ‘by-pass, from out of State.’ Before it was...” (Note to readers: Last word was talked over by Tom Saviello.)
Tom Saviello: “I was just wondering, if there was a limit on taking the stuff from out of State.”
Bob Duchesne: “Amendment B…Amendment B: It allows 20 thousand tons of ‘by-pass.’”
George MacDonald: “When you’re talking about the…”
(Note to readers: End of side of recording tape. Next side of tape picks up at:)
Representative Ricky Long: “So presently, there’s excluding, do you know if there’s any of that going in, as a result of that?”
George MacDonald: “To my knowledge, I do not.”
Ricky Long: “There’s none? That’s taking advantage of that? Is that what you said?”
George MacDonald: “As far as I know.”
Ricky Long: “So there is no out-of-State waste going in?”
(Note to readers: Three words spoken by Tom Saviello could not be deciphered.)
Unidentified voice: “Representative Ayotte.”
Representative Bernard Ayotte: “I just wanted, I…I…I do respect what you’re trying to say.”
(Room breaks out in Laughter.)
Bernard Ayotte: “So, Ah, if you define some of these things. What is this hierarchy you’re talking about? Just quickly. And then I want to ask: Whether, did somebody change the rules, after this contract was negotiated? Is this what the…” (Note to readers: one single inaudible word here.) “…I’d just like to know, there’s a right flak in there. You understand what better this interstate is all about.”
(Room has murmured laugh, distinctively heard.)
George MacDonald: “The hierarchy is thee State’s policy for how solid waste should be managed. And it’s a series of steps. And it starts out with the preferred way for managing waste, which is reduce. Reduce the Waste, so we don’t have to deal with it, whether volume or toxicity.”
Bernard Ayotte: “O.K..”
George MacDonald: “And then re-use. Re-using the waste, so it doesn’t have to end up in the waste stream. Recycling, to recover the value. Composting the Organic fraction.”
Bernard Ayotte: “O.K..”
George MacDonald: “And anything that has waste to energy where you extract value, from the waste through combustion. And you have the landfilling of residues; or materials that shouldn’t or can’t be managed in any of the above steps.”
Bernard Ayotte: “Alright, to lead up on the discussion we’re having right now, in treating the resentment of change. Centered on…did somebody change these contracts more? Did somebody to decide, whomever was the contact, to re-negotiate this? What is the problem we are trying to solve here right now?”
Bill Armstrong: “Well, there’s been, there’s been…no changes to the contract.”
Bernard Ayotte: “O.K..”
Bill Armstrong: “Except the ones…except the ones that are mentioned already. One was, the first one, was simply to extend the window to make an application to expand it from 3 to 5 years. And the second one is, is…as Senator Goodall has pointed out, and addressed it: Handling the ‘C & D,’ matter. Other than that, no.”
Unidentified voice: “Senator.”
Seth Goodall: “When was the last time, Casella, or K.T.I., or whatever, supplied wood, or supplied fuel, to…”(Note to readers: next words were inaudible until:) “…as the original operating service agreement?”
George MacDonald: “I don’t know off the top of my head, Senator.”
Seth Goodall: “Was it pre…was it before or after the second amendment?”
George MacDonald: “They were supplying wood to the Mill, prior to the second amendment.”
Seth Goodall: “Were they after?”
George MacDonald: “There were some issues with thee bio-mass facility at the time, and I don’t know exactly when they stopped delivering the ‘C.D.D.’ fuel.”
Seth Goodall: “Alright, what would’ve happened, if the second amendment wasn’t in place then? What would, ahhh…what would be happening, alright, in practice?”
Bill Armstrong: “What do you mean, ‘What would be happening?’”
Seth Goodall: “Well, there’s a large concern that…” (Note to readers: next word was inaudible. It picks up at:) “…Out-of-State waste that originates out of State, is defined as ‘In-State waste,’ being ahhh… landfilled, the by-product…” ( Note to readers: Next four words sounded mumbled. It picks up at:) “…And some would argue, that…that’s a result as of the second amendment. I’ll just put it in quotes: ‘As well as a change in the Law in 2007.’ So, if we…if the second amendment were have never been executed, in practice what would be happening with the Landfill today?”
Bill Armstrong: “If it hadn’t been executed, in other words, they were confined to using ‘C. & D.,’ from the State?”
Seth Goodall: “Mm-hun.”
Bill Armstrong: “And there wasn’t sufficient…If there wasn’t sufficient available to make/reap 100,000 tons, they were going to be providing green wood chips.”
Seth Goodall: “But, they’re not supplying it, because obvious, they are operating on an insufficient account, correct? If there’s not a need for the supply.”
Bill Armstrong: “If there’s no need to supply, then they wouldn’t have, then there is…no need to be supplying.”
Tom Saviello: “O.K., assuming that no other markets are materializing.”
Bill Armstrong: “Right.”
Tom Saviello: “That there are no markets that are materializing.”
Seth Goodall: “True, that’s what the second and third topics are.”
Bill Armstrong: “Yeah.”
Seth Goodall: “Then obviously it would be different conversation.”
Bill Armstrong: “…that would be no different except for…some reason, Red Shield decided that they simply weren’t going to operate the Bio-Mass facility. We wouldn’t be…brought the ‘C. & D.,’ obviously.”
Seth Goodall: “True.”
Bill Armstrong: “Yeah.”
Seth Goodall: “Ahhh…(Very long pause.) what would be the process, ahhh…if the State and Casella went to re-negotiate the contract, under current law, what parties are obligated…What parties can execute an…”(Note to readers: next word was totally inaudible.) “…or re-negotiate the contract? To acquire a statutory…approval, of a law enacted by the Legislature?”
Bill Armstrong: “No, I don’t believe so. The figure to the original resolve gave the same, also to impose whatever terms and conditions that they wanted. That would to me, in my mind, would include making an amendment to.”
Seth Goodall: “What happens if, Ahhh…the amendment was so… if it materially impacted the entire agreement, to the contract message was entirely changed, would they have the authority to do that? I mean the original resolve, or was that required that it matched?”
Bill Armstrong: “Well, when you’re talking ‘amendment,’ you’re talking as agreement. So, if it’s so onerous, Casella probably would not agree to it.”
Seth Goodall: “But, if you wanted to sell a Landfill, that would require Legislative action.”
Bill: “If you want to sell a landfill, They you’re going to have to negotiate with Casella.”
Tom Saviello: “In which we would have to change the law that says…”
Bill: “Because I expect they’re gonna want some negotiations around their anticipated return on their $26 Million dollar investment.”
Seth Goodall: “Or the ability to…(pause) accept waste.”
Bill: “Well, get back to your suggestion, that maybe…(Note to readers, inaudible words here until:) and others take ‘out-of-State’ waste.”
Seth Goodall: “O.K..”
Tom Saviello: “I think you know the ramifications.”
Bill: “Right.”
Unidentified voice: “One more question.”
Tom Saviello: “Do you have anything you want to finish up with?”
Unidentified voice: “I guess I do have one more.”
Tom Saviello: “Go ahead.”
(Note to readers: inaudible conversation, up until this point:)
Seth Goodall: “So hopefully we won’t have to drag you back here.”
(Room chuckles lightly.)
Seth Goodall: “Ummm….say for example, in the future…Dolby wants to allow waste, in whatever form or substance, to landfill there; Agree, since we are the State owners. And the contract that’s stipulates is different, from the contract that, ah, the State…at what point, Ahhh…might be, that called ‘discrimination?’ or… (Note to readers: inaudible single word here.)…of other laws? If we had a materially different contract, between two different players?”
Bill: “Well, it could be…you don’t change…or stuck to any of the current laws. So, I’ll be completely free to negotiate with whatever we want to do with the operator of Dolby.”
Seth Goodall: “So would Dolby, for example, if the State wants to turn to a contractor, not an operator, As we said before, and seal it’s only one of its structure, of: ‘We had an arrangement,’ So…”
Bill: “Yes.”
Seth Goodall: “By contract.”
Bill: “Yeah, by contract. Yeah.”
Tom Saviello: “Other questions? This is your chance. I’m sure they’ll come back if we ask.”
(Bob Duchesne and Bill Armstrong chuckle.)
Tom Saviello: “Do you want to have any questions of anybody else or are we pretty much done for the day?”
Unidentified voice: “My guess is, that this is it.”
Tom Saviello: “Yeah.”
(Room laughs.)
Bill: “I don’t want to open the door or anything.”
(Bill Armstrong lightly chuckles with a few others.)
Tom Saviello: “Well, I do greatly appreciate you coming down. I hope this all gives the committee everything it needs for a base line for working together tomorrow, and we will do it. And I thank you both of you gentlemen for coming in today and for that…committee is adjourned.”
Interview with Hillary Lister
Q : “O.K., I’m talking speaking to Hillary Lister. We got some very important news here, that’s ground breaking. Ah, Hillary, do you want to tell me real quick what you were just saying about Representative Goodall, ah, from ah, Richmond?”
A : “Yeah, Representative Goodall. He has been pretty good on criticizing issues with Casella, and I would say, that’s primary due to the fact, that his P.A.C. is partially/ largely funded by Waste Management. Over the past few he’s really pushed through one piece of legislation that was crafted by Waste Management. To allow them to, amend State Law to expand their dump in Norridgewock. Even though when they got operating rights, they agreed that it wouldn’t expand beyond that footprint. He’s been the biggest promoter of that legislation. He was the original prime sponsor of that legislation. So, he can be raising some really relevant points about problems with Casella, but the flipside of it is he’s been trying to get Waste Management contracts and (chuckles.) laws in the state for a while here.”
Q : “And when you say pol…that, Political Action Committee, right for P.A.C.?”
A : “Yup, Political Action Committee.”
Q : “And that’s working on that, ah, interview I did with you and Diane Messer. When you said that, ah, if, ah, ah, ‘Casella can’t expand the Juniper Ridge Landfill, ah, that, they are probably going to expand it over it at the Dolby Landfill.’ I mean, yeah, the Waste Management Landfill.”
A : “Norridge…”
Q : “Norridgewock.”
A : “Well, there’s Norridgewock Landfill, which is owned by Waste Management. And they’re the only commercial landfill allowed in Maine though. Casella is operated effectively as a commercial landfill. Norridgewock is the only one that got really ‘Grandfathered,’ in. And
the whole reason that Waste Management got operating rights for that, was the previous company, was bringing in massive amounts of out-of-state waste. It collapsed the dump and they brought in Waste Management to basically, their expertise supposedly was dealing with problem dumps.”
Q : “Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, are you ready for this one? Are you ready for this one? Ah, I think I got it on tape, but my tape recorder did go off. Tom Saviello, was speaking to Sean Mahoney. Who Sean authored the Open letter to Pattie Aho. From the Conservation Law Foundation. Tom informed Mr. Ah, Mahoney, that the…you know why the reason why dumps, fall like 12 feet? Because fiber shrinks over time.”
A : “Or they build them on top of clay, that just let’s go.” (Laughs.)
Q : “But are you surprised about that?”
A : “That’s sounds like the sort of thing he’s said, as long as I’ve been coming here. He’s been chairing this committee and making whatever random claims. Which, are partially true, but ignore the serious truth of the reason the Norridgewock dump collapsed, and the reason the Dolby dump has sunk 9 feet, since they built it. Is they build them, basically in bogs. Norridgewock is built on clay. Dolby is built, pretty literally in a bog.” (Chuckles.)
Q : So that statement that he made, is probably…”
A : “It’s truth to a little degree. But the…”
Q : “But 12 feet would be, ah, adding.”
A : “Yeah, that’s much more to do with the ground itself shifting.”
Q : “And when you say, ‘a bog,’ is that more of a bog like what Juniper Ridge Landfill is on? Even though that George Mac Donald said that, ‘It’s not in a bog. But there’s a stream that runs under the far toe of it.’”
A : “Just next to a bog, and Dolby is even…Dolby is actually overlooking a Pond. So, it’s Dolby Pond…”
Q : “That’s right.”
A : “But the dump is built on the edge of.”
Q : “Yeap. Those were raised last year. That’s there’s all sorts of concerns about leachate in there. But there really hasn’t been much in the way of tests for quite a while since it’s not an active landfill anymore. So they haven’t maintained much in the way of monitoring, it seems like.”
Q : “And did you read that Open letter to Pattie Aho?
A : “I did, yeah.”
Q : “What, now, what did you think about that?”
A : “Ummm…”
Q : (Laughs.)
A : “I mean I think it’s very relevant. I think the more attention that can be drawn to her connections, very direct connections, to Pierce Atwood, one of the largest law and lobby firms in the state for the waste industry, really needs to get out there.”
Q : “What did you think about that meeting, that she conveniently had in her office, and then said she didn’t know any idea about?”
A : “Business as usual. I need to run back downstairs. I was just grabbing this.”
Q : “O.K.. Cool, cool, thanks.”
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Q : “O.K., I’m back here with Hillary. O.K., now what were you saying about Bob Duchesne?”
A : “That he’s definitely had conversations with Waste Management lobbyists and has consistently, sort of spoken in favor of policies that they’ve been promoting. And they, I think they approached him as someone whose in opposition to Casella. So, making very clear, that Waste Management is, in certain ways, a far better company than Casella. And even indicating that maybe they should be operating some of those things Casella is operating.”
Q : “Now what do you think about this, ah, even though it’s probably going to work in Casella’s favor, the, ah, proposed, ah, fees, they’re trying to pass through the Natural Resource Council?” (Note to readers: It should have been called the Natural Resource Committee.)
A : “I’m not sure is Casella is still going to be able to get around paying fees, or not. It it’s…”
Q : “They’re not going to get around it. They’re talking about, the way they described it, because I listened to the tape last night. If there’s fees imposed. Because, Casella is lined up with K.T.I. in Lewiston, they’ll have an in. And there’s even accusations made from drivers, according to Bob Duchesne, that, the drivers go to K.T.I…”
A : “Can you hold on for a second?”
Q : “Yes.”
Dual Interviews with Paul McCarrier and Hillary Lister
Q : “I got ground breaking news here, from Paul McCarrier. He just talked to, ah…”
Paul : “Bernard Ayotte.”
Q : “Bernard Ayotte.”
Paul : “Representative from Northern Maine.”
Q : “Representative from Northern Maine, o.k.. Can you try to remember what you were just telling him about the Patricia Aho deal, that went on?”
Paul : “Well, here’s the issue, is that, ah, the legislature was hearing, ah, review of the contract between the state and Casella, concerning the operation of Juniper Ridge Landfill, by Casella. Ummm…yesterday there was a representative from the Attorney Generals’ office, along with Patricia Aho there, from the, Ummm…the Commission of Department of Environmental Protections. Now that hearing got out, at about 4:20 in the afternoon and that same day at 6:00, there was an article in the Bangor Daily news, saying that how the Commissioner had approved a doubling of Dol…Ah, Juniper Ridge Landfill, as opposed to the tripling that Casella had asked for. And then also gave a link to the 35 page decision. And so it’s very surprising that you had the Commissioner of the Department of Environmental Protections along with the Attorney General who reviews this whole contract, both before a legislative committee. And in under 2 hours they seemly approved something without letting the legislative committee know that there was, ah, that this deal to expand the landfill. Which is the whole reason for the hearings about the operating contract between Casella and the State. The proposed additions of tipping fees brought by Bob Duchesne of Hudson. And the continuing discussion of where is most of Maine states’ waste coming from? Out-of-State or is it produced in state? And so I just find it very surprising. And I’m not a Legislature, so I can’t, you know, Ummm…I don’t feel personally slighted by this. But if I were a Legislature and I had the Commissioner of the Department of Environmental Protections and the Attorney for the , Ummm…you know, and the attorney for the Attorney General, who deals with those contracts in the same room. And would not let me know, that this contract, that this public benefit, Ummm…for expansion, had been approved; I’d feel pretty insulted.”
Q : “Right, and ah, I talked to a guy from , Paul. I forgot his last name. I think it’s Schroeder from Trash Trackers Network. Schroeder, Sherdier? O.K…he actually told me, ‘Watch out for the news tonight. Because they are going to announce, the, the, the, ah, the decision, for the ah, ah, ah.”
Paul : “Expansion.”
Q : “Expansion. Right, right, right.”
Paul : “Yup. That had been discussion in that committee meeting yesterday. Was where they going to announce it and among committee member they’d said: ‘Oh, there hasn’t been a decision yet. There hasn’t been a decision yet. So apparently that decision happened between 3-5 with the Commissioner sitting in the hearing room?” (Chuckles.)
Q : “Wow! Wow! O.K. so basically they’re gonna, expand the Landfill, and, ah, ah, everything else is just basically, ah, because the Pat. Did you? Did you see the Open letter to Patricia Aho? Did you show him that?”
Hillary : “I haven’t yet.”
Q : “O.K.. I’m actually gonna…I gave her a copy of it. I actually got a copy of a letter and we got permission to do: An open letter to Patricia Aho, from the Conservation Law Foundation.
Paul : “Un-Hun.”
Q : “Written by Sean Mahoney. What happened was…(pause.) Patricia Aho was, ah, the , ah, interim before she was fully appointed as the Department of Environmental Protection head. It seemed that she was informed of the, ah, Flagstaff Lake, ah, ah, Florida Power and Light, Flagstaff lake, ah, ah, something to do with Flagstaff Lake.”
Paul : “The dam.”
Q : “Yeah, possibly. Ah, I’m not real sure. But what happened was, she didn’t attend a meeting. Or she didn’t approve it, and now the state for the next 25 years has no say at what happens at Flagstaff Lake. Because Patricia Aho’s, ah, co-worker, Sam…Samantha, ah, Deploy, hyphen something. Ah, said that, ‘Patricia Aho didn’t know about this stuff.’ But low and behold, according to this letter, she did know about this. And now the state has no say. And isn’t it consequential that Flag Staff Lake, may or may not , be in the route between the ‘East-West highway,’? With the power lines that’s suppose to go from Calais Maine to Coleburns and so forth.”
Paul : “I, I, I, I, I haven’t heard about that yet. I’ve been following mostly trash issues. And from Patricia Aho’s record on the public benefit on the expansion for the Juniper Ridge Landfill, I would not be surprised. That’s up for interview right now Doug. If you don’t mind Doug.”
Q : “O.k., o.k., no problem.”
Paul : “Thanks man.”
Q : “Definitely.”
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Q : “So like, what we were saying before. What happened was, ah, ah, Bob Duchesne said that he hears complaints from truckers that brought recycled material to K.T.I.. And they said they wouldn’t accept it. But then, when they, ah, when they have trucks from Massachusetts coming in, with the same type of similar material, then they accept the material. Have you heard similar things?”
Hillary : “Yup. I’ve definitely heard similar things, and K.T.I. is getting most of its waste from out-of-state right now. The other states have the money to ship it up, because they’d have to pay to otherwise dispose of it in their states. So it’s more cost effective and at a good amount of cases, the trucks that are shipping it up from Massachusetts are subsidiaries of Casella. So it benefits them all around. They’re basically getting to pay themselves effectively.”
Q : “And were you surprised when no one’s keeping track of that, even though it would be a violation of their contract?”
Hillary : “Again that seems to be business as usual.” (Chuckles.) “that’s all, it’s just ‘Casella overseeing Casella.’” (Chuckles.)
Q : “now do you think that…do you think that there’s a way, that the States definitely going to, be able, to, ah, look into seeing if there’s a violation of contracts, so they’d shut it down. Of do you think they are just going to pretend to see if there’s any violations of contracts?”
Hillary : “Only if they are required to, or they’d go do it and that’s part of a push for an O.P.E.G.A. investigation of the State’s contracts with Casella.”
Q : “You said, O.P.E.G.A. ?”
Hillary : “O.P.E.G.A.. The Office of Program of Evaluation of Government Accountability. They’re putting in a letter to that office, with several legislatures whose signed onto it. To request an investigation as soon as possible.”
Q : “Do you know what the status of that is?”
Hillary : “Ummm…It will go before their next meeting. Which is in a couple of weeks from now.”
Q : “Is that going to be a public meeting?”
Hillary : “Yup.”
Q : “Right here at the State House?”
Hillary : “Yup.”
Q : “Do you know which Committee is going to be doing it?”
Hillary : “Ummm…the O.P.E.G.A.. It’s a Government oversight committee.”
Q : “So, they got their own committee?”
Hillary : “Yup.”
Q : “O.K.. Hopefully I can get this up before them. Ah, so, I know your packing up and stuff. Are you going to be here tomorrow by any chance?”
Hillary : “No, I…”
Q : “O.K., O.k.….Ah.”
Hillary : “But if you want to come up to Orono, there’s a whole discussion. I’m going to be on a panel on Environmental Justice up in Orono, at U. Maine Orono. So a lot of this is going to be discussed up there.”
The following was transcribed and reprinted by permission of Paul Schroeder from the following YouTube video: 20120118 Casella on Fuel Supply. (Note to readers: January 18th 2012 testimony presented to the Natural Resources Committee.)
Seth Goodall: “Thank you very much. Would Casella, or K.T.I., or both or separate, however been talk about.”
Don Meagher : “I’m Don Meagher from Casella Waste Systems. Ahmmm…And with me, and sitting with me is Dan Emerson, also from Casella Waste Systems. Ummm…I’ll talk more about Juniper Ridge. Dan’s expertise is K.T.I. Biofuel; he’s the manager of that facility. Ahhh…the first thing, I’d like to just, Ahhh…spend a few minutes, Ahhh…on…I’ve talked about this before. But, Ummm…I’d like to correct the, ah, assertion that has been made a number of times, that, Ahhh…somehow the State has derived no financial benefit from the Juniper Ridge Landfill. Ahhh…First in 2004, Casella, paid the State of Maine $26 Million Dollars for the privilege of operating that Landfill for 30 years. Ahhhmmm…There are a number of direct benefits, that Ahhhmmm…Ummm…Go both to Old Town Fuel and Fiber in Old Town and Lincoln Pulp and Paper, Ahhh…in Lincoln. And those are below market, Ahhh…disposal fees’ for residues from those Mills. Ahhh…Ahhh…Tipping fees’ at the Juniper Ridge Landfill at well below, Ahhh…what those Mills could operate their own Landfills for. And so, there is a direct, Ahhh…financial benefit to those two Mills which was…Ahhh…(Note to readers: minor feedback cuts out words here.) The State had in 2003. Ahhh…There is also, Ahhh…currently a $2 Million Dollar a year subsidiary, Ahhh…To Old Town Fuel and Fiber. Ummm…related to the ‘C & D,’ fuel obligation that was entered into as part that, Ahhh…going back to 2003.
Finally the form that I handed out to you, is one that, Ummm…I’ve handed out many times. We’ll go over again. Ahhh…The total aggregate direct financial payments that Juniper Ridge has made even to the city of Old Town, the town of Alton, the neighbors around the Landfill or the State of Maine, exceeds $15 Million dollars over the past 8 years. The city of Old Town has received directly, Ahhh… approaching $8 Million dollars. Ahhh…Over that period of time. The town of Alton, approaching half a Million dollars. Ahhh…the neighbors themselves, nearly $3 Million dollars. And the State of Maines’ Special Waste fee, over $4 Million dollars. Ahhh…So the impression, that somehow, the State, has gotten ‘no benefit,’ out of that facility, on a financial standpoint, is simply, factually, incorrect.
(Pause.) Ummm…I’m trying to think…Ahhh…the topic of…Ummm…of…Juniper Ridge charging…Ah…Lower fees’ to our company haulers, then we do to other haulers coming into the facility, Ahhh…Representative Duchesne correctly…Ahhh…noted that, that is prohibited…Ahhh…in a contract with the State. Ahhh…and understand regardless of whether we are a vertically integrated company, or not, Ahhh…a hauling operation is a ‘Clust Center,’ and it has expenses, Ahhh…that it has to offset against its revenues. Ahhh…and…and…our hauling companies have to do that, as do other hauling companies going into the facility…So, the fact that there is vertilee…vertical integration and somehow or another the Landfill can lose money, Ahhh…in order…Ahhh…for the hauling operation to not lose money, Ahhh…I think, is just, Ahhh…a simple misunderstanding in how a business works. Ahhh….Ummm…In terms of K.T.I., I’m not sure. Dan has the Authority on pacific things, That, you want to comment on.”
Dan Emerson : “I don’t know and yet with Juniper Ridge and Waste Management had brought it up. We have a hundred thousand tons, per year, of ‘C & D.’ in which we have a commitment of an inter-ratio. If we can’t supply them with a hundred thousand tons, or if they utilize that hundred thousand tons, we actually pay them over a Million dollars, Almost $ 1 ½ Million dollars per year. When we first entered that agreement, we were setting up K.T.I., and our customer base in order to supply that facility with those ships. Hence why, we’re bringing in the volume of, Ummm… wood ships, Ahhh…’C.D.D.’ into K.T.I. in order to prepare ourselves to do that. And, we’re still to this day, contractually obligated to do that. However, since we’re not shipping out material for the Red Shield, or Old Town Fuel and Fiber, Ah…that material now is going up to the Boralex and Sappi, divided between the two. And Old Town at this point, can’t burn that, so again, we’re…we’re just issuing a check every year to Old Town Fuel and Fiber.”
Don Meagher : “ I think finally I have to take exception to the assertion that, Ahhh…Somehow or another, Ahhh…Casella has not managed the Juniper Ridge Landfill in a manner that was…it was expected to do, Ahhh…back in 2003. Ahhh…I can go into the entire history, Ahhh…I…As I attempted to do, Ahhh…before. I realize that gets somehow tedious. But, if one follows the resolve that this committee pasted. To the request of proposals that the State Planning Office had put out to select an Operator for that facility. To Casella’s proposal in response to that ‘R.F.P.,’ to the States’ selecting us as the operator and…please note that we were thee only company that bid on that ‘R.F.P.,’ that might give you some idea of, Ahhh…of, Ahhh…How difficult it was and has been to meet the requirements in that ‘R.F.P..’ Nobody else thought they could make money adequately. Ummm…we took the risk, Ahhh…going from the ‘R.F.P.’, to our proposal to our contract with the State,…(Pause.) I would ask somebody to give us a specific instance in which that is not being followed, as it was expected to occur. Take the example of ‘C & D,’ processing into ‘wood-fuel,’ and Ahhh…that out of State waste would be a large component of that. That was fully understood in 2003. It was incorporated into our proposal to the State. It was incorporated into our contract with the State, to operate that Landfill. And so, now 8 years later, somehow say, ‘C and D.’…’C & D,’ being used to full…fulfill that obligation is a surprise; is simply a mischaracterization of understanding of what is in 2003.
The very definition of ‘Out of State waste,’ that waste coming into Maine and being processed, is then acceptable waste at Juniper Ridge. That topic was specifically addressed at the work session, when that bill was being debated. And two Representatives of this committee, past Representatives of State government: ‘If Waste is brought into Maine, and processed in Maine, is that residue then Maine waste, and is it acceptable to go up to Juniper Ridge?’ And the answer from three Representatives, from the Governors’ office, from the D.E.P., and from the State Planning Office, was ‘Yes.’ (Pause.) And that’s what’s going on today. It is entirely consistent with 2003, it is consistent with State Statue.
And again, we seem to be wanting to re-visit, a decision that the State made at that time. If that was unacceptable in 2003, then the decision should have been made then, not today. But re-visiting it today, I think was simply…(pause.)…Changing a decision that was made then and the State entered into a contract on the basis of that understanding.”
Seth Goodall: “Ah, I just want to correct…I…I think everyone around this ‘Horse shoe,’ knows and agrees and appreciates the fact that Casella has given quite a bit of enumeration to the State, and to different entities, the municipals as you weighed out here. I think, Ummm…for some of us, I’m not speaking for the Committee, but the concern is that, the value upon, you know, the entire contract, is not something, that some of our opinions that, show that, Ahhh…Such as other trade assets. And some of us have compared it to, the ‘Liquor Contract.’ (Note to readers: new word inaudible.) And these are all debatable issues, but, we are, Ahhh…acknowledgeable of the fact, that when we acknowledge the fact that you guys have paid a significant amount of money. We just feel, some of us, that the long term perspective, the value maybe not what it should have been.”
Don Meagher : “Yeah, let me comment on that specifically. If…If one goes back to ‘the resolve,’ Ahhh…there is a phrase that is used in, ‘the resolve,’ Ahhh…which refers to, Ahhh…the entire transaction that was handed off to, the State Planning Office, to bid out…to put out to bed, as ‘Revenue Neutral.’ The Legislature directed, that, that whole arrangement, between the State, Georgia Pacific and the operator of the Landfill, would be ‘Revenue Neutral.’ Now the State decided not to put any money into the transaction. If you put no money in, and it’s ‘Revenue Neutral,’ it means: ‘You get no money back.’ (Pause.) That was the basis of what the State Planning Office was directed to do: ‘Revenue Neutrality.’”
Seth Goodall : “Representative Ayotte.”
Representative Ayotte : “Mr. Meagher, I find it interesting, Don, when, when you talked about the various a numerations that you did…that are in the contract. Can I, can I ask you: ‘What…how much did the State had invested in this?”
Don Meagher : “Ah, Ah, Ah, again the, the State…”
Representative Ayotte : “It was ‘Revenue Neutral.’”
Don Meagher : “…had, had, had, had, no, no revenue to put into the purchase of the landfill, Ahhh…of the design and operation of the landfill, Ahhh…assuming any of the liabilities of the Landfill, -none of the costs associated with the Juniper Ridge facility, were borne.
I’m talking financial, Ahhh…were borne by the State of Maine. All of those obligations, and then in turn, all of the revenues, were placed on…(Note to readers: Woman clearing her throat, conveniently by an open microphone, blocked out the rest of the sentence.)
Representative Ayotte : “And yet these various towns, profit from it.”
Don Meagher : “Well, they…they…”
Representative Ayotte : “Even though the State, had, had not…”
Don Meagher : “Sure.”
Representative Ayotte : “…Put any of their own revenue.”
Don Meagher : “Yeah, O.K…. A ‘Revenue Neutrality,’ Ahhh…we pay the State fee, because those fees’ were being paid at other facilities, before Juniper Ridge became a State owned Landfill. So, to…to not pay these State fees’, would mean…would have meant, the State was losing revenue it previously had. So, yeah, we’re completely fine with that. We went into this arrangement, Ahhh…proposing that we would…we would have financial benefits to the city of Old Town. Now as it turned out, Ahhh….What we actually negotiated with Old Town is, far in access with what we proposed. Ahhh…in response to the ‘R.F.D..’ Ahhh…it’s also far in excess of what our obligation is, under the ‘operating services agreement.’ But, in the case of Old Town, Alton and the Neighbors, those are things we actually have done on a voluntary basis, because, it’s…it’s what we decided to do. And I’m now, you know, saying that we wouldn’t want to do them, but…but we should recognize, at least, or what I’m trying to say here is, is that, we are trying to provide these benefits.”
Representative Ayotte : “ And it costs the State nothing.”
Don Meagher : “That’s correct.”
(Pause)
Unidentified voice : “Representative Duchesne.”
Representative Duchesne : “Thank you Senator. A couple of expectations, I think, may have changed, since the contract, Ahhhmmm… And a lot of this has to do with 2010. Those, those reports, but then I realized the situation is changing from on the ground. But I’ve seen there are two expectations at that time. The first is, the assumption that: ‘What’s coming across the border for processing actually has value. Ahhh…and what we’re hearing from a lot of the haulers is, there is a lot of source separation that goes on, before it ever…either at the transfer station or before it even gets on a truck to come up here. Ahhhmmm…So, when we see a lot of oversized, bulky waste happening at K.T.I., for instance, we’re starting to make a leap of from, that: ‘hey wait a minute, what’s coming into the State, don’t mean that here, has a 7% of value that can be turned into widgets,’ in 2010. That’s basically; we didn’t get any value that was expected in the original expectations. 7% of fuel out of nearly 200,000 tons of waste, isn’t much benefit, according to the original expectations we had of what was going to be made into fuel. The second thing is, this came up in the Blue Ribbon Commission, I think I asked Don, Ahhh…is it your expectation to be able to help us meet our own recycling goals within the State? That is, will the K.T.I., or the Westbrook facility at that time, de-processing Maine waste…(Note to readers: Next word or words was said so rapidly, it could not be understood here.)…as possible? Will we be taking our own trash in there and try to do that? In reality, only…even though it’s sitting in Lewiston, it only took 11% of its waste, from ‘In-State,’ All of that ‘trucked-In,’ from elsewhere. I think it’s two expectations that didn’t really get met in the original deal, so…Can you comment on that?”
Don Meagher : Ahhh…I can comment on both and I’ll ask Dan to help me out. Ahhhhh…In, in terms of, Ahhh…In terms of, of, what can we recovered out of a ton of ‘C & D,’ in, in, 2003, there were no expectations. Because all of thee, Ahhh…Chapter, Ahhhh…418 rules which got into…that was one piece, the…wood…wood fuel quality and then the recycling standard, which was a, Ahhh…subsequently piece of Legislation, none of that had happened, at the time. So there…there were really no expectations, Ahhh…simply that, a 1000,000 tons of ‘C & D,’ wood fuel had to be provided, in whatever way you could do that. And there was no specificity, as to how that would be done. That was simply an obligation. You had to provide that product, at that price and you got to worry about, how you’re going to get it done. We made the observation at the time, that even under the wood yield percentages back of 2003, there was not enough ‘C & D,’ being generated in Maine, if Casella had control of all of it. Which it doesn’t then and it doesn’t now. You couldn’t produce 100,000 tons, You wouldn’t even come close.
Ummm…So, that’s, you know, I think, Ahhh…Ahhh…Ummm…A piece of that, Dan, I don’t know if you want to add anything particular about 2010. It was an adventitious year. Ummm…for specifically reasons why the yield was so low, Ahhh…at that time.”
Dan Emerson : “I would add, building up to 2010…In 2007 I believe it was, we actually got our permit in Westbrook. When we got our permit in Westbrook, we were geared up to build out Westbrook. That, ah, $14 Million dollar project, that we were going to process the ‘C & D,’ in order to provide the wood chips to Red Shield at the time. When the economy crashed, Ummm…(pause,) Capital is more expensive at the point. Legislation, Ummm…would have run up against some fines issues, but what they’re going to be considered at that time. We had made ah decision to stop Westbrook, not knowing what was going to happen there. It’s a large investment, to close it down after 2 or 3 years, with Legislative changes, for, for fines going up to Juniper Ridge. There are some issues with …(Note to readers: next set of words were said way too fast to transcribe properly.)…product.
That being said, we still have this commitment of wood chips going to Old Town. When Pine Tree Landfill closed, is when we needed to keep securing that volume, move it to K.T.I., come up with a plan at K.T.I., with the equipment and footprint that we have there, and try to figure out how to process more, and recover more. In 2010 was that transition year of, ‘o.k., we got material…it, it, kinda got forced down our throat, per se, when we closed Pine Tree, we didn’t have a facility to take it. We had customer obligations, now we had to find out how to recover it. It took us a year to get the permits, got the permits, made the changes, this year you’re going to see a huge improvements. And represent…Representative Duchesne has already seen that. As, as, as, Ahhhmm…Senator Saviello. So, we’re heading in the right direction. We’re recovering more, our wood yield has gone from a thousand tons a month to almost five hundred tons a month. The recovery at K.T.I., is substantially higher. It’s improved. Ahhh…But again, in order to pay for that $1.5 Million dollars, we still have to pay to Old Town Fuel and Fiber, we have to do what we are doing, in order to, to offset that. And to supply the wood chips to Boralex and Sappi, today continues to meet.”
Don Meagher : “Ah, can, can I just follow up? One other…one other observation. We, we, we, we always seem to be, discussing the incoming volume into K.T.I., ah, and having the question poised: ‘Why so much out of state ‘C & D,’ ? And the question that never seems to be asked, which I think is…the obvious and important question, ‘Why so little Maine ‘C & D’ ?”
Representative Duchesne : “That was my next question.” (Chuckles.)
Don Meagher : “Why…Why do so few generators of Maine ‘C & D,’ choose to bring their material to K.T.I.? We can’t force them to do that. That is a …That is a decision that is made in the marketplace, by the generator of material. And…And, you know, I, I can’t really answer the question, because, that can only truly be answered by them. But, I think we’ve gotten some insight into that, Ummm…”
Senator Tom Saviello : “Raise your hand.” (Note to readers: Senator Tom Saviello is talking to someone else in a lowered tone, while Don Meagher continues.)
Don Meagher : “… for, ah, some of the people in the room here today, that are, ahhh…ahhh…Extracting the useful material: wood, metal, aggregate and cardboard, ahhh…Out of the raw material that they’re handling at the facilities; it makes no sense for them to deliver that to K.T.I., because there’s not much there to recover. So, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s proper destination is a landfill. Ummm…In terms of thee, Ahhh…Ahhh…thee; Ahhh…Municipal…(Note to readers: next word was obscured, but the best estimate is that word was, ‘Land-line,’ as its identity.)…Landfills that we talked about, as, as, as part of fees’ and recognize…It’s probably not lots, but estimated at 5,000 tons a year. That seems awfully low. Errr…I don’t know how accurate those numbers are. How many of these Landfills actually have on site scales, Ahhh…that they can, Ahhhh…Actually preciously measure that, but, Ummm…(pause.) K.T.I. in terms of what it has to charge for ‘C & D,’ to run its’ operation, will never compete with an online Landfill. That, that’s simply not going to happen. And so, that material, Ahhh…is, is going to go, Ahhh…to that destination. Ahhh…”
Representative Duchesne : “It turns out there aren’t that many tons…”
Don Meagher : “…K.T.I.”
Representative Duchesne : “…Going to online landfills, so it was 5,000; I think, or something like that?”
Don Meagher : “Well…yeah, it said 5,000.”
Representative Duchesne : “So, that’s almost not even in the increased rounding error.” (Chuckles.)
Don Meagher : “Well, now I realize…now that, you know, that, that amounts to, less than, 300 tons per Landfill, when I think of the population in some of those municipalities. To me it sounds like , they’re well below dumping ash. Ummm…but, ah, we’re take it because apparently that’s why…”
Representative Duchesne : “One of them, One of them is in Greenbush. (Laughs.) Let me tell you how small this is.” (Pause.)
Don Meagher : “O.K..”
Representative Duchesne : “Those online landfills really are not items out of the equation. That’s not what’s throwing the market. And the question I’m trying to…Trying to figure out in my own head is: ‘Why is it, (Pause.) happening? That all these people are, are, have transfer stations, hauling companies, that could fore-go the expense of doing all the source separation at transfer station; Just take it to you, and do it there and save on all the transportation costs to get it all the way to Juniper Ridge? Something else is going on. Ah, one of the things that occurs to me that is going on is, it’s a benefit to Casella to be able to take as much out of state waste as possible, process it there and then take as much in-state waste as possible, take it directly up to Juniper Ridge. And that’s just a hypothesis, so far I haven’t found proof against it.”
(Pause.)
Don Meagher : (Clears throat.) “I, I…You know, I…I can’t answer it, because I’m not part of the operation of the operation of that facility. But, I would…I would expect, that we would…we would take all of the in-state waste we could take and…we take the out-of-state waste because we can’t get the in-state waste. Ahhhmmm…”
Representative Duchesne : “There’s something about the economics obviously that is cheaper for them to do the processing and take…go all those miles up the highway, when there are only 20 miles, 30 miles away from K.T.I.. So what’s going on?”
Don Meagher : “Well, well also remember…remember that, when…when they at their facility, in many ways, they’re doing the same thing, was driving their operation as being done at K.T.I., at their facility. When they pull material out that represents to them, both revenue and avoid of cost.”
Representative Duchesne : “Mm-hun.”
Don Meagher : “Because they are now selling it, and offsetting what would be a disposal fee.”
Representative Duchesne : “Let me ask you this then: How would we know that same thing isn’t happening in Massachusetts since that seems to be the intelligent thing to do? And the reason why we have a lot of oversized bulky waste crossing the border, is because , the same thing’s happening there?”
Don Meagher : “I think there’s two things we need to look at and consider. In-state you got the tranphers…transfer stations, you got Troy-on, you got B.B. I.. A lot of their work that comes in, isn’t from ‘trailer work,’ it’s from ‘roll-on work.’ Some of it’s from tear down jobs, Ummm…demolition projects, things of that nature. There’s not a lot of that happening in Maine. That being said, you’re going to get more bulky waste from clean-outs, ‘green models,’ things of that nature. You’re not going to get a lot of ‘finds,’ in there. You’re going to get more…(Note to readers: obscured words used here.)…less worry about what’s metal, some copper. There’s value in some of those containers. I think it makes sense from some for those smaller transfer stations, like Troy-on and B.B.I., to hand pick those items out, get some value out of it, and..(Note to readers: Next word sounds like ‘Egressed.’)…clearly is ‘Colby-W,’ that will go to Juniper Ridge. What we bring in from out of state, are more projects that are more ‘demoing jobs,’ that come up in trailers. They don’t have a lot of bulky-waste, practices out to…we had this discussion when we were out to K.T.I., a lot of the processed resid…residue that we sent out from K.T.I., doesn’t allow from out-of-state, doesn’t consist of mattresses and furniture. It’s…it’s material that has no value. Tarps, Ahhmmm…there’s shingles, a lot of dirty ‘C & D,’ that has no value.”
Representative Duchesne : “And I guess that’s the difference in the expectation from what was...made…made the deal originally. The expectation was: ‘What comes across the border to make fuel items that’s actually going to have fuel in it? And what we’re hearing is: ‘You know it really doesn’t have as much fuel in it, as we originally thought, when we cut the original deal.’”
Don Meagher
: “But, But, again, Ahhh…the, the, the, the, the quality of the material coming in to be processed, ah, how much of it was recycled, how much of it, Ahhh…resulted as wood fuel. Was…there was no expectation of that at all, as part of the discussion. (Note to readers: Next word was either ‘All,’ or ‘Only.’) the expectation and it was required. It was a…it was a prequalification bar, that any successful bearer had to get a hold of was, you have to be able to provide, however you can do it, a 100,000 tons of ‘C & D,’ wood fuel at $4.00 a ton…”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“So…when did the…”
Don Meagher
: “…That was the expectation.”
Senator Seth Goodall
: “…Since Old is, and you’re not sending any wood waste there.”
Don Meagher
: “Right.”
Senator Seth Goodall
: “O.K.. Wouldn’t your company be in a position to potentially want to revisit this contract…”
(Representative Duchesne
chuckles.)
Senator Seth Goodall
: “…Rather than shelling out $1.5 Million…(Note to readers: Someone coughed, but the word was either ‘every,’ or ‘per,’)…year?”
Don Meagher
: “Ahhh…we actually had the opportunity to do that in 2006. Ahhh…Our initially fuel supplier agreement with Georgia Pacific, Ahhh….Ahhh…Ahhh…expired at our sole discretion when Georgia Pacific was no longer the owner of …(Note to readers: Interference with recording microphone cut off rest of words for a second.)…Ahhh…we had…we had…we had the unilateral right to get out of that obligation, Ahhh…in 2006, and, and…(Note to readers: Another interference with microphone here. Next word or words was either: ‘subjugate,’ or ‘such as date.’)…and be done with it all. Ahhh…we were asked by the State of Maine, (pause,) to renew that agreement, with Red Shield and, and with Old Town Fuel and Fiber. So, that, Ummm…it was something we were asked to do, and we took on a lot at considerable expense here.”
Senator Seth Goodall
: “Sure. I mean the notion of…I need to confirm that 2003, I don’t wanna tie this whole long process…”
Don Meagher
: “Right.”
Senator Seth Goodall
: “When you went through hours and hours of…” (Note to readers: next set of words were said too fast to translate.)
Don Meagher
: “Sure.”
Senator Seth Goodall
: “The rational and history and so forth. But, the notion that, an asset that we own, and had contracted you to operate, that we may not, Ahhh…Contemplate making changes to, Ahhh…was defiantly something I would have to hope and Casella contemplated when you made the contract, you knew there was a risk there. So, I think it’s in our responsibility to propose these changes and ideas from time to time, so, you always kind of go back to that line of, of, of, of statements towards us; but I think it’s our responsibility. Especially in light of the fact that you guys are talking expanding…I mean you’re seeking, Ummm…the right to do that right now. I’m trying to figure out: ‘What is the public benefit of Maine,’ in light of current day circumstances to grant that expansion.”
Don Meagher
: “Well, remember also, Ahhh…That, Ahhh…explicit in, Ahhh…The State’s ‘R.F.P.,’ explicit in our proposal in response to it and explicit in our contract with the State, was the presumption, that an expansion application would be reviewed by the D.E.P.. And…and in 2003 and 2004, that was a foregoing conclusion. So…”
(Note to readers:
Unidentified person says: ‘Can I just?’ but Don Meagher continues.)
Don Meagher
: “…That…that assumption has been revisited by the State govern…by State Government, Ah, and really in direct contradiction to what the assumption was in 2003.”
Senator Seth Goodall
: “So, if we can just get back to, I guess the purpose of the film, of Ahhh…of you know, in regards to the fees’ and Ummm…Representative Duchesne knows, he’s studied this quite a bit.”
Don Meagher
: “Sure.”
Senator Seth Goodall
: “We’re looking at fees’ on ‘C& D,’ why a percentage of ‘C & D,’ coming from out of state. I think it’s 80-90% of your facility?”
Don Meagher
: “90%”
Senator Seth Goodall
: “90%. And, Ahhhmmm…this is although, so , based on policies in other states like Massachusetts, Ahhhmmm…many would argue we are inheriting some of the , as they saw as challenges, Errrr…now in the State of Maine based on the structure of that we have set up. A fee might, Ahhmmm…either compensate us of potentially change the market place. I mean, what’s our response to that?”
(Pause.)
Dan Emery
: “At the end of the day, these fees aren’t going to hit the tonnage going into K.T.I.. The fees’ are going to hit the Maine people that are going to go to online landfills. Because, we’re not putting a fee on material going into a processing facility.”
Senator Seth Goodall
: “We could do that.”
(Representative Robert Duchesne and others laugh.)
Dan Emerson
: “Can you?”
(Very long pause and no one is laughing now.)
Senator Seth Goodall :
“AAwwllleerrr…(Awkward response.) “I…I…”
Don Meagher
: “Well, to…to…to respond to your question, ah, Senator Goodall, We…we had said through this process, we said, and also during public hearing, ahhmmm…ahhhmmm…back when it was introduced, ahhh….that…that thee…’a reasonable fee,’ and we think in the $1. Range, Ummm…on, Ahhhmmm…raw unprocessed ‘C & D,’ into landfills as one would see it, is across the board, in every landfill, whoever’s taking it, so there is, ahhh…a level playing field, for everybody; Ahhh…was something we could accept. Ummm…but, that’s…that’s very different than what a (Note to readers: the next word was either ‘Mill,’ or ‘bill.’) was originally proposed as. Ahhmmm…we’ve also indicated, that thee, Ummm…Ahhh…I think it was 8 point ahhh…proposal that, ah Senator Saviello, ahhh…had put together, Ahhh…was…was generally acceptable. Ah, with the, you know few refinments that needs…needs some definitions of things. So we’re not, ah, opposing the fee altogether. Ah, we’re simply, ah, asking for…for really two things. One that it be, you know, kind of reasonable and workable. Ah, and…and two: that there be a level playing field. That: ‘A landfill is a landfill is a landfill.’ They’re all valuable resources and when you put material into a landfill; whether it’s ah, municipal landfill or a commercial landfill or a state owned landfill, whatever it is, you’re using up that resource.”
(Pause.)
(Note to readers:
Bob Duchesnes’ signature chuckles, chime in at this point.)
Don Meagher
: “And, a fee ought to apply if you’re going to decide that’s what you’re going to do, to manage that resource.”
(Laughing occurs from unidentified persons on committee.
Possibly one of them is Bob Duchesne who gives a laugh chuckle after he starts talking.)
Representative Bob Duchesne
: “Thank you. That exemption already exists now. If you own your own landfill, if you’re a community, -Augusta, Ummm…you’re exempt from the solid waste fee…management fee, right now, And the rational always was: ‘If you misspent under your own home rule authority, deal with your own stuff. You…we’re not managing it for you, A solid waste management program, no fee.’ Ummm…and that’s true for all thee, thee municipal landfills and also true, right now. Ahhh…on all fees for the ‘C & D,’ collectors and so, historically, this never was the case…”
Don Meagher :
“Sure.”
Representative Bob Duchesne
: “So, to suggest we have to do this across the board, would be to remove an exemption that always existed under the philosophy that these guys, are ‘home-rule,’ and they’re taking care of their own problem.”
Don Meagher
: “Well, when this committee dealt with the issue of the Lewiston landfill, you took a very different approach.”
Representative Bob Duchesne
: “Mm-hun, and for very good reason.” (Lightly chuckles.)
Don Meagher
: “And from this diverse committee, decided to insert itself as a magic matter of state interest to the business of municipal landfills.”
Representative Bob Duchesne:
“And for very good reasons, that I’ll love to take the committee’s time to go over again, but no one would like it. I’m done for now.”
Unidentified Committee member
: “I’m going off a tangent a little bit, but…but, but, I got…I really got to ask you, to clarity find something that you said ah, in Senator Goodalls’ comment on public benefits. You said, ‘under the 2003-‘4, or, 2003 or ‘4 contract, there’s an obligation under that, for the state to review an application.’ Was it an obligation on behalf of the state to approve an application?”
Don Meagher:
“No.”
Unidentified Committee member:
“I just want to make sure that we’re on the same wave length on that.”
Don Meagher:
“Very…very different. All thee environmental, Ahmmm…criteria had to be done straighter than that. We understood that. There was no guarantee on an expansion to be approved. Ahmmm…but it was, (Pause.) entirely beyond understanding in all those sequences that I went into, with that, that application would be submitted without the need for a public benefit determination, and a review by the committee.”
Unidentified Committee member:
“Without the need for a public benefit determination?”
Don Meagher:
“It was exempt from it.”
Unidentified Committee member:
“O.K., let me ask you another question.”
Don Meagher:
“O.K..”
Unidentified Committee member:
“Your spending a million dollars, a million and a half, whatever it is, you’re sending a check to Old Town, for fuel that’s not being provided.”
(Note to readers:
Someone coughing near a microphone obscured words here. It picks up at:)
Don Meagher:
“Well, fuel they decided not to utilize.”
Unidentified Committee member:
“Whatever.”
Don Meagher:
“Yeah.”
Unidentified Committee member:
“O.K., it’s a check you’re sending out.”
Don Meagher:
“Yes.”
Unidentified Committee member:
“If there was a revision made in the contract that negated that, would that give you a cause to reduce some of the imported waste you’re looking at? I, I understand that you have fixed contracts that you’re obligated to; but would you have a tendency to reduce that or would you…what would happen?”
Don Meagher:
“Well, the, the, the challenge for us, and I would have to leave it to, (chuckles.) frankly, people higher in thee organization than myself. But, we created a business model in order to fulfill an obligation that the state requires to take on in 2003, and then asks us again in 2006 to continue with when we had a ‘sold-off,’ and a way to get out of it. Once having created that business model, ah, we, we can’t…what is the mechanism for somehow, ahhh…unwinding it and keeping us, (Note to readers: last word was either ‘whole,’ or ‘home.’)
Unidentified Committee member:
“Well, I’m not…I’m not necessarily sure I agree with that because you have a business model and I understand how you developed it, and what became of it.”
Don Meagher:
“Yeah.”
Representative Ricky Long:
“But when you start talking a significant amount of money that’s being diverted off which is causing you to increase your revenues and increase your waste stream, whatever.”
Don Meagher:
“O.K..”
Representative
Ricky Long: “And I know you have contracts that are fixed, and I don’t expect that 30 year contract that is probably shorter than that.”
Don Meagher:
“I see.”
Representative Ricky Long: “There is an opportunity, to look at what your business plans from that point forward. Is that something worth considering?”
Don Meagher:
“Always, as in, I’m not going to make any specific commitments here. But, if we were relieved of our obligation, ah… under the fuel supply agreement, would…would that create the opportunity to make some changes? I would guess. That’s fine.”
Representative
Ricky Long: “that’s all I’m asking. I mean, there’s a lot more to it, than a simple answer. But, I understand very well.”
Don Meagher:
“Right. You know, can that go to the point of, you know, terminating the entire operation at K.T.I.? Probably not. Ahhh…ahhh… and if we can only get, you know, what minimal amount of, ahhh…Maine ‘C & D,’ that we get to operate that facility, is it viable based on just that? You know, but…but, you know, Certainty that, that would be a significant change, which would allow, ahhh…”
Representative Ricky Long:
“But the original…”
Don Meagher:
(Note to readers: a few words were obscured by Ricky Long’s words. It picks up at:) “…for some applications.”
Representative Ricky Long:
“But the original intent was to divert wood waste to the Old Town facility, for that use. But they don’t use it. In lure of that, you’re sending them a check. Right? That’s what’s really happening there.”
Don Meagher:
“Correct.”
Representative Ricky Long:
“O.K.. Thanks.”
Dan Emerson:
“And it would then send them a check, you know, if we…we terminated that contract, ahhh…you…you got to look at two things. Are they sustainable? Who’s going to make up that 1 ½ Million dollars on their…on their balance sheet? And number two, you’ve got Sappi and Borlex, who are looking for that material…now! K.T.I. doesn’t provide a 100,000 tons a year, ahhh…currently those facilities. Ahhh…we provide up to, probably 30-35,000 tons of material, based on the volume we bring into K.T.I.. That’s what we can provide out…out of that facility. So, that being said, I don’t think we could divert any more material out of K.T.I., only to provide…” (Note to readers: someone coughing had obscured the next word. It picks up at:) “…and State facilities with the Bio-Mass fuel that they’re requesting.”
Don Meagher:
“I think, and, and, and, and, you know, I I…we would all like to have…”(Note to readers: Same person coughing obscured next word. It picks up at:) “…Some higher possible wood yield content, ahhh…out of ‘C & D,’ comes into K.T.I.; Whether it’s Maine or out-of-state. Well…What I think what Dan is trying to say here is that, ahhh…you know, to wind that back and reduce that operation, that then has a financial impact on those facilities. Because, they’re relying on K.T.I. for, ahmmm…good quality fuel, highly B.T.U. content per pound, at a very favorable price.”
Representative Ricky Long:
“Did…did that enter into, and I know you’re not free to say a lot; but, did that enter into your contracts to negotiation out-of-state, to receive waste unused?”
Don Meagher: “Ummm…”
Representative Ricky Long:
“Did you protect that material, so that, that it did come to you to use? Or are they doing all the re-separation and recycling to remove it before it comes through? Or did your contract protect that, now is that an obligation that you had to have? Does your contract protect that? Or could it be done that way?”
Don Meagher:
“Ahhmmm…”
Representative Ricky Long:
“But we also have some other incinerators in this State that probably are gonna run shy on fuel. So, that’s an important resource, if it’s handled right. And I just want to know where the contracts go. If you control that or if you don’t control that?”
Don Meagher:
“I, I, I’m just not, Ummm…I’m, I’m not, I’m not out of a contract between the…”
(Note to readers:
Ricky Long and Don Meagher talk over each other, until this point:)
Representative Ricky Long:
“If I have a…”(Note to readers: next words sound like either, “Bio-Mass,” or “Governmental-Mass.”) “…And I have a contract with you for waste.”
Don Meagher:
“Un-Hun.”
Representative Ricky Long:
“O.k.? Can I totally segregate and salvage and dispose of everything that’s of value and save just what’s left; or do I , under contract with you, send you what I generate?”
Don Meagher:
“O.K., I…I don’t know what our arrangements are.”
Representative Ricky Long:
“O.K….alright.”
Dan Emerson:
“The arrangements we have with our…our Massachusetts facilities are: If they have been…’official used materials…’” in that, if they have material we can, Ummm…process and generate recoverable wood chips…”(Note to readers: someone coughed and next word was either: ‘Pines, Fines or Finds.’) “…Ah…any valuable metal, anything that we can recover,
That’s material that we’re looking for.”
Representative Ricky Long :
“O.K..”
Dan Emerson:
“If…If there’s…if there’s material. Coming out of facilities that is high volume or bulky waste, or…material that we can’t recover. Anything out of, we do seek that…” (Note to readers last word was either “far,” or “bar.”)
Representative Ricky Long:
“No, but I…so under your contra’s, you did seek to control that, so you do get the good stuff. Not just the…”
Dan Emery:
“Absolutely.”
Representative Ricky Long:
“O.K..”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“A couple of questions, Ahhh…Mr. Meagher in regards to you, I brought this up yesterday about by-pass, Ummm…I think…Ummm…please correct me if I’m wrong, because I don’t have a machine in front of me, Ahhhmmm…M.E.R.C. by-passes 30,000 tons a year…”
Don Meagher:
“Into Juniper Ridge.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Into Juniper Ridge, yeah.”
Don Meagher:
“That’s…that’s probably a close number. It might be a little less than that, but, ah…ahmmm…”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“20 or 30 thousand tons.”
Don Meagher:
“Yes! Ummm…”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“And P.E.R.C. I believe by-passes significantly less…”
Don Meagher:
“Very little.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Very little.”
Don Meagher:
“Yes.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“So, Ummm…(pause) why, since we, looking at the Hierarchy, why would we try to deter that, (note to readers the nest word was either “concurring,” or “occurring.”) especially when you are allowed to by-pass M.S.W., and…”
Don Meagher:
“Let me…let me…let me talk about that in a number of ways. Ahhh…first, you…you had posed the question; Ahhh…(pause) I think it was a week ago Tuesday. Ahhh…George MacDonald responded, ahhh…referring to the definition in state statue, that…by-passed, ahhh…waste that is by-passed from a facility in Maine, is Maine generated waste; regardless of the origin. And that is true, that is the defin…definition of statue. But in our permit at Juniper Ridge, which pre-dated the statutory definition, Ahhhmmm…we voluntarily agreed, that…any by-pass going to Juniper Ridge, when an incinerator did not have the capacity for handling, we’ve only come from Maine sources. So, even…even though the statue says: ‘It could come as by-pass, from out-of-state, directly to Juniper Ridge, it does not happen that way.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Sure.
Unidentified voice:
“No.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
(Note to readers: other voices obscure start of sentence until here:) “I understand to trust the yard, one is from out-of-state. You can by-pass the ‘In-state.’”
Don Meagher:
“What…what we actually do…”
Unidentified voice:
“You better file an engagement this thing.” (Laughs)
Don Meagher:
“No, what we actually do is, when the facility goes into ‘by-pass,’ mode, Maine Energy for example…It goes directly from a Maine transfer station, to Juniper Ridge. It doesn’t go…it doesn’t go to Maine Energy. (Pause) It by-passes ‘Maine Energy,’ and goes directly to Juniper Ridge.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“So…”
Don Meagher:
“But for the Waterville transfer station.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“So, you have an incentive to maximize your contracts at M.E.R.C., even when you can’t handle the capacity, (note to readers: a woman coughing what is picked up is:) when you need a relief valve…”
Don Meagher:
“Sure.”
(Note to readers:
Woman coughing near microphone and obscures conversation until here:)
Don Meagher:
“Sure…Ummm…there…there is also, Ahhh…the Juniper Ridge license that, thee total amount of what is…accepted at ‘Maine Energy,’ and processed and used as fuel, and what is ‘by-passed,’ from Maine Energy from whatever source, the total of those two cannot exceed 310,000 tons a year. Which is thee capacity of Maine Energy.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“But…”
Don Meagher:
“So, we…we don’t…we don’t…we don’t…have the ability to bring in all of this, Ahhh…additional…”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“My…my concern…my concern is…is the value of air space and the fill rate of landfills. And when you look at the ‘by-pass,’…I’m just saying, the way that your structure, from a business perspective, is to maximize your contracts at large; Knowing that if you over-exceed your capacity, you can then, relief valve, into Juniper Ridge. And we have no deterrent in the market place right now, to, Ahhh…(pause) encourage you to do something other than that and Landfill that solid waste.”
(Medium Pause)
Don Meagher:
“Well, there…there are a…a number…a number of things that are…that…that M.S.W. is being used for, Ahhhh…at Juniper Ridge. When, Ahhh…a new selp.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Can I just get a comment for that? Last…year.”
Don Meagher:
“It’s used as what’s called a soft layer.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“So, I guess…I’ll just cut to the chase. What would happen if we put five dollar fee on ‘by-pass,’ and we waive the fee, if that waste went to another incinerator, to encourage, the use of the hierarchy.”
Unidentified voice whispering:
“…Is there something about that?”
Another unidentified voice:
“I don’t know. (long pause.) I just wanted to give the opportunity to answer.”
Unidentified voice:
“Oh.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Representative Duchesne.”
Representative Bob Duchesne:
“Ah, thank you Senator. Ahhmmm…where’s the leaching from Juniper Ridge being processed now?”
Don Meagher:
“Goes to thee, Old Town Fuel and Fiber treatment plant.”
Representative Bob Duchesne:
“Have you had to pay for that, or is that…”
Don Meagher:
“No.”
Representative Bob Duchesne:
“So, that’s at…so, when…when, you were paying them…What? A million, a million and a half right now, for not supplying fuel, to some extent, that’s covering your leaching.”
Don Meagher:
“Ahhh…not…”
Representative Bob Duchesne:
“It’s…It’s…It’s not a ‘free-bee.’”
Don Meagher:
“That…that…that leachate arraignment was one of thee contractual agreements.”
Representative Bob Duchesne:
“As was, (Note to readers: Nest word was either ‘Part,’ or ‘Heart,’) of the provision of the word etc.. So, so in reality it’s not like you’re just sending them a check for nothing. You’re actually…It’s actually helping you pay for your Leachate.”
Don Meagher:
“No, because…”
Representative Bob Duchesne:
“O.K., So…”
Don Meagher:
“…Our arraignment with the Mills, since 2000…Errr…our…our contractual agreement with the State, and the States agreement with Georgia Pacific, the heart of all those obligations was: the Mill would treat Leachate from the landfill at no charge.”
Representative Bob Duchesne:
“Right. So, you’re sending the money for no charge and you’re treating you Leachate for no charge. (Long pause,) I think I got it.”
(People in room chuckle.)
Don Meagher:
“We’re…we’re…we’re…we’re…we’re sending them money to offset them not using the ‘C-N-D,’ wood fuel…one of the agreements, and their treating our Leachate at no charge.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“The last question I have, I promise, Ahhh…but you’re couple questions…on one topic, K.T.I.. What’s your capacity at K.T.I. right now?”
Dan Emery:
It’s between two hundred and two hundred and twenty thousand tons.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Thank you. And you said 90 percent of that is coming from out of state.”
Dan:
“Correct.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“What’s your…So, that’s your facility capacity, what’s your…Ahmmmmm…long term capacity… (pause) planning wise?”
Dan:
“I can’t answer that right now.”
(Representative Deshanie giggles.)
Dan:
“Obviously I wouldn’t want to go backwards, Ah…If anything, I’d rather be more efficient with (note to readers next word is either “wood,” or “what,” we’re processing now. So, I’d, oh, I’d go more than two hundred thousand…I’d say up to two hundred and fifty thousand is where we’d efficiently like to be for processing.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Do you need to see any…”
Dan:
“With our footprint.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Sure. So, if you…At what point are you going to trigger a new permit or (Note to readers: inaudible word here.) permit, or an (Note to readers: next word is inaudible. Sounds like: “under.” or “State.”) permit?”
Dan:
“Ah, we’re not currently…”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“No, no. Can you envision a point of capacity where you’ll have to go and revist your permits?”
Dan:
“In today’s economy, right now… no. (Medium pause.) Would I go after a permit for design changes? Absolutely, yeah.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“So, is your capacity a function of your site, or your equipment?”
Dan:
”Both.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“What’s your capacity at equipment?”
Dan:
(Note to readers: sounds like:) “Two hundred…twenty thousand eight hundred.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“So, they’re both? … O.K.. So, if you had a bigger site, based on the equipment you had you can’t really be increased in capacity? I see.”
Don Meagher:
“That was…That was one of the goals we had, Ahhh…that Dan deferred to, a facility in Westbrook, which we have had fully permitted and we’re really, Ahhh…literally, ahhhh…on…on the verge of breaking ground and simply decided, ahhh… that the regualroty environment was so uncertain, that we we’re going to go forth with the project. But the purpose there was, Ahhh…a facility with today’s equipment (pause) and more capacity.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“It wasn’t that. See…’Cuz, you were going to create some sort of ‘palletized trash,’ too…that was one of the …or was that?...”
Don Meagher:
“Ahhh…that was, that was, that was a separate project associated with ‘Maine Energy.’”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“I see, O.K.. Ummm…Any other questions? Representative Parkhurst?”
Representative James Parker:
“Old Town Fuel and Fiber. If you all of a sudden came up with a hundred thousand tons of wood; would they take it?”
Dan:
“No…Of C-N-D wood?”
Representative James Parker:
“…Or do they have a use for it?”
Dan:
“Of C-N-D wood?”
Representative James Parker:
“Yeah.”
Dan:
“No.”
Don Meagher:
“No…they…they…we…we…we were and are prepared to provide them with the ‘C-N-D,’ wood fuel, they have made the decision not to utilize that as a fuel.”
Representative James Parker:
“O.K… So they really don’t have a direct use for the fuel…right now.”
Don Meagher:
“Not with the equipment they have to use.”
Representative James Parker:
“Or what they’re using now.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Any other questions? Thank you. Thank you very much.”
(Room breaks out in laughter.)
Senator Seth Goodall:
“That’s the problem with contracting with the State. You have neogations in the open.”
(More laughter and giggling in the room.)
Senator Seth Goodall:
“Ahhh…D.E.P. …”
Susan Johannesman –Legislative Analyst for the Environmental Natural Resources Committee, on L.D. 693, L.D. 879, L.D. 1278 and L.D. 1458.
Susan Johannesman:
“Ahhmmm… What you have in front of you, from me at least, is a summary of thee four carry over bills that you have related to solid waste management. And, I…I…I know you have more going on here. More information that you’re going to be receiving, so…I’ll just…identify the four bills, so that you…all of you, are aware of what they are.
L.D. 693 is an Act concerning Solid Waste facilities, citizen advisory committees. That was a bill that was reported out of the committee. There was a form amendment to it. And it was then, Ummm…committed back to committee, and carried over. And that bill, deals with, Ummm…changes in Statue and thee, Ummm…resolve, dealing with solid waste facilities citizen advisory committees. Ummm…L.D. 879, is an act to ensure adequate Landfill capacity, in the State, for Solid Waste. And that is the bill that authorizes a commercial landfill facility, to expand; If the proposed expansion is continuous with the existing facility, and is located on property owned by the person holding the commercial Solid Waste disposal facility license. And it, Ummm…adds certain conduit…it includes certain conditions as well. When that can and cannot be accomplished.
L.D. 1278, an act to stabilize Solid Waste management funding. Again, this bill is carried over after public hearing and just an initial work session. And it creates a another account in the Maine Solid Waste: It imposes new fees. Ummm…on the disposal of ‘C.D.D.’ and ‘C.D.D. processing reside,’ As well as, imposing higher fees on waste water facility sludge, disposed at a Landfill, and, Ummm…other special waste, disposed of it, at Landfills.
L.D. 1458, is an act to transfer recycling technical assistance…( Note to readers: next single word was inaudible.)…policy and responsibilities from the State Planning Office, to the Department of Environmental Protection. And, well that proposes to do just what the title says. Ummm…and I think, as you all know, part ‘F.F.’ of the appropriations, ah…budget, or the budget for last year, also set up a working group, that has submitted to appropriations. Some language to, Ummm…disperse solid, ah…State Planning Office responsibilities and part of that includes the solid waste component.”
Tom Saviello:
“And what we’ll do is, we will, Ahhh…deal with all…Let Carlie speak on all the bills, and the Governors position. Because of one of the things we held these 4 bills for, the Central Committee, as I recall, they really wanted to know what…what the States’ policy is going to be on Landfills. So, they all kind of, tie into this, in some way or another. So that’s why we brought it back. That’s also why we brought 693 back to committee. So, it could be heard in this overall plan. Ummm…have Carlie go through all of them, and then I think my student, who’s student extraordinaire, George MacDonald…”
(Bob Duchesne laughs.)
Tom Saviello:
“…Will talk to us, a little bit about, some, Ummm…some of the issues and then be around for questioning. Then we will take each bill individually, ahhh…looking at the recommendations that the Governors’ made right now. And the two of them, that we may continue to work on. Ahhh…two of them, we may be able to move out of committee today. So, with that, is that O.K. with everybody? So, with that, I’m going to turn to Carlie and quick…” (Note to readers: last few words were inaudible.)
Carlisle McLean
Carlisle:
“Thank you Senator Saviello. (Note to readers: next salutation was inaudible.) Members of the Committee, Ummm…This is a testimony, I’m just going to walk you through, what we’ve done over the past 6 months or so: And where we are on some of the bills in front of you today. And also, offer an explanation as to why we want to hold off on two of those bills until a later date. Ummm…first, Ummm…the four bills that you held over, and doing so, as you had just indicated, Senator Saviello, you’d asked us to go back and just comprehensively look at policy. Meaning when there’s many of, Ummm…the impact of citizens, and regulated entities of the State. To get a fresh perspective on these issues.
Ahmmm…I think that, in the process, it’s been really interesting to see that people are very receptive to having an opportunity to share their thoughts and ideas, on this. I’ve also certainly learned a tremendous…”(Carlisle lightly chuckles and is complimented by Bob Duchesne’s signature giggle.)”…amount and appreciate the complexity of these issues, now; And every time I think I have it figured out…I don’t. So, I will do my best for you. Ummm…first I just wanna run through…I’ve submitted a letter to the committee, that articulates, Ummm…like where we are in the process, why we are taking this approach, four policy goals; and I’ve also attached a list of all of the entities that we’ve met with. The little bit of information about either each of those entities. A lot of that information is pulled from their websites, or from discussions that we’ve had with them. I’ve also attached, Ummm…and re-sented…”( Note to readers: like resent to you.)”…to, some proposed changes to one of the bills that’s before you. That I’ll get to a little bit later. But, I’ll just quickly, just for the record, Ummm…go through it and list all the folks that we’ve met with and spoke with. So, there’s four other windows. There currently four waste to energy facilities in the State, and we met with all four of them.
Ummm…Maine Energy Recovery Company, ‘-A MERC.’ Pennobscott Energy Recovery Company, ‘PERC.’ Eco-Maine and…” (Note to readers: sounds like, ‘M-LAC.’)”…Mid-Maine Waste Action Region. Ummm…we also, and just to clarify, Ummm…Our former Director of S.P.O….”(Note to readers: ‘S.P.O.’ translates into State Planning Office.)”…and I had been working on this. He did resign from that post; and since then I have been working, Ummm…with the Director of the Office of Energy Independence and Security, whose Ken Fletcher. Because a lot of these issues do relate to waste…to…to energy issues, which I’ll get back to a little bit later.
Ummm…in the landfill category, we’ve met with the CrossRoads facility in Norridgewock.
We’ve met with Juniper Ridge Landfill operators in Old Town.
We also met with the City of Bath Municipal Landfill. Ummm…And three of thee Aroostook facilities: The Saint John Valley region facility, The Tri-Community Landfill and the Presque Isle landfill. For compost facilities, we met with the Hoffberger compost facility, the Sandy River…River recycling association. Which is up in Farmington. And…and…and, kinda the other category, we’d met and visited with K.T.I., biofuels, Ummm…facility in Lewiston. Ummm…we did meet with the Juniper Ridge Landfill Advisory Committee, which is the consortium of towns as an ownership interest at P.E.R.C.. Ummm…We met with a handful of engineers…Including Sean Small, Jim Atwell, Randy Olm and also we’d met with Representative Jim Parker, as he has worked on these issues previously, in some capacity, in the private sector. Ummm…We also met with, Ummm…(Note to readers: next two words sounded like ‘Abutting crossroads.)”…Landfill, Gloria Fredrick. She also had an opportunity to sit with the Governor on these issues. Ummm…and we…we’re an ongoing discussion with the Department of Environmental Protection, and the State Planning Office; as well as the Office of Energy Independence and Security. We also had meetings with the impacted towns, so the town of Norridgewock, and the town of Old Town. And…when we were at Norridgewock, we did have the opportunity to meet with some of the town consols…councilors, as well as, the town manager…there. Ummm…So that…that…is quite….quite a road trip. As…but it was…”
Tom Saviello:
“Congratulations.”
(Bob Duchesne giggles.)
Carlisle:
“…Very, Ummm… enlightening. And as a way to get rid of some of the issues, As we normally try to do it. So, Ummm…I’m just going to walk through the Governors policies that we’ve, kinda worked through as we’ve talked to the individuals and researched on these issues. A lot of these policies are already in the State statue. Ummm…but, I think there’s a lot that just isn’t being done to achieve these policies. And so we’re hopeful that some proposed changes and the committee take some action, that we might be able to see some changes. For example, the recycling number that’s been stopped at around 38%, for years now, just as an example. So, the first…kin of way I’ve described this, is just to support and promote the existing waste hierarchy which is codified in statue already. But it is: ‘Reuse, reduce, recycle, incinerate, and landfill.’ Ummm…and we do want to put an emphasis on recycling and waste energy facilities. In that, Ummm…the Governor believes strongly that all waste should be put through a higher and better use. Ummm…it’s important to note that waste to energy facilities reduce, by 9 to 1, the amount of waste, that does get landfilled. But obviously the excess needs to go somewhere, so that does get landfilled. And these are the four…facilities, some middle…some that are actually get…” (Note to readers: Next two words were totally mumbled.)”…from the State. Ummm…we wanted…we want to support the hierarchy in Maine for Waste, and I think our position on one of the bills…today, as we will address, you’ll see that, we’re trying to do that.
We want to take a fresh look at the recycling program. Part ‘F.F.,’ as you’ve heard from the Commissioner of D.E.P., and just now from…”(Note to readers: next three words were said in an inaudible format.)”…in part F…Part ‘F.F.’ does transfer the recycling functions from S.P.O. to D.E.P.. We think this is an opportunity to take a fresh look at recycling and I did…I will get…we’ll…we’ll get to that a little bit more in a moment.
Ummm…the other comment on this on, I want to raise, is that your committee maybe where…that at, the Energy and Utilities Commission, L.D. 425 ‘An Act to stimulate demand for renewable resources,’ was carried over by that committee. And that is a…a bill that would impose an ‘R.P.S.,’ on Ummm…Ummm…waste to energy. And…what we think you should consider doing, is holding a joint meeting with that committee. To look at whether there might be something you could do with…the $1 fee that’s currently placed on ‘front-end,’ processed residue, and ash waste; that goes to landfills, that comes from waste-energy facilities.”
Tom Saviello:
“Yeah, no, that one’s is ah, we like to ah…talk to you about that. We’ve actually talked about that, between ‘Chairs,’ to have a sit down with you for a couple of minutes, to decide what the best way is to go is. And ah…so that…that we were on the same page and probably have a joint hearing on…”(Note to readers: rest of the sentence was said in an inaudible mannor.)
Carlisle McLean:
“We’re not proposing that and suggestions to L.D. 1278.”
Tom Saviello:
“Right…right.”
Carlisle McLean:
“that would be something both your committees would take up, and presumably to achieve multiple purposes. Ummm…the second policy goal, is to rigorously regulate landfill disposal…expansion. Emphasizing the significant value of each and every cubic yard, of every space that we have in this State.
We have met with the Attorney Generals, on several occasions, as well as, Read previous memo’s that have been provided to your committee, from the Attorney General’s Office…and it’s very clear that we have very little latitude under this constitution. The Congress clause, in terms how we regulate, or impose restrictions on out-of-state waste. Your committee has been through this issue. I know over the years, I’ve read through a lot of committee reports from the past 5 or 6 years. Ummm…but…we do think there are ways of controlling the waste stream. And assuring that we have…ahhh…responsible landfill capacity for…Mainers. Ummm…(pause.) It’s important to note that, you know, the administration does recognize that landfills host liabilities and maintenance cost. They’re also a key component of the waste stream. Ummm…And, they can produce energy as well. (Pause.) But we want to assure that we have adequate landfill space, Ummm…now and into the future; but that we closely monitor…”(Note to readers: next single word was inaudible.) “…that space. We also…it’s very important to note here, that we want to avoid, as…as already codified in Statue, monop…monopolistic outcomes.
Ummm…(Pause.) we want to assure a public…a robust public process, at all of these facilities in terms of how they are regulated. And Ummm…potentially look at, as we move forward, with some of the bills that we’re not willing to take up today, on whether there might be ways of taking a fresh look at the public benefit determination. And looking at D.E.P., on how we might be able to…(pause,) potentially tighten that up a little bit.
Ummmm…the fourth policy…or the third policy consideration is, to meet the States’ obligations at municipal landfills and state owned facilities. As you know, your committee passed and the Governor signed L.D. 2…Ummm…62, an act to extend eligibility for certain municipal landfills, to purchase…”(Note to readers: next word was either ‘re-a-mission,’ or ‘re-admission.’) over…quota…quadra program. But, description of the bill, says that when monies are available. And so, we think that some of the support we’re offering to one of the bills here today, could potentially help this State meeting some of those obligations. And in addition to that, Ummm…we are actively engaged in the Dolby issues, and I’m not prepared today to talk about details on that. But we do continue to look at that and work on how we can address the issues that, you are all very aware of at Dolby, Ummm…and that relates as well to assuring that we’ve met our obligations at these facilities. Ummm…and in related to this is finding existing refuge (Note to readers: next word was either : ‘industries,’ or ‘indescrepencies,’ was next word.)”…which is related to L.D. 1278, I’ll get into a moment. The last policy consideration is: whether to cease State ownership of landfills. This is, Ummm…certainly…ahhh…significant policy consideration, and we’re not proposing anything specifically right now. But, as we have worked with, Ummm…Folks around the State, and listen to people and observed some of the situations that have developed in these different locations. It’s clear that, Ummm…folks around the State and listen to people and observed some of the situations that have developed in these different locations. It’s clear that, Ummm…there are issues to be addressed at…for example: Ummm…the Juniper Ridge Landfill and the public input there. But, it…it doesn’t prevent our need to look at this, because…the Governor does re…remain concerned about…(pause.) the entity of the State being both the owner and regulator of that facility. Ummm…but we…we need to continue to look at that. Ummm…but we’re not proposing anything at this time, with regard to that. And honestly we care a lot about concerns, regarding importation of waste. So that would need to be considered, before we even move forward with that. (Pause.)
So, those are the four policy positions that we’ve reached and again a lot of this isn’t new. However, I think we’re ready to take them…some significant steps to try, ah…Ummm…promote some of these policy goals.
And if you’d like me to do so, Chair Saviello, I can go through our positions on three of the bills now. Or…”
Tom Saviello:
“Lets…do this…”
Carlisle McLean:
“…you could hear from George on this…”
Tom Saviello:
“We’re talk to George…”
Carlisle McLean:
“Yup.”
Tom Saviello:
“…and then we’re come back when this is all done.”
(Long Pause.)
Tom Saviello:
“You know if it helps you, you could put that right on the desk.”
(Note to readers:
“That,” being the tape recorder that is recording this entire public comment period taking place.)
Doug Papa:
“Really?”
Tom Saviello:
“Yeah.”
Doug Papa:
“Thank you, I appreciate that.”
(Bob Duchesne giggles.)
Tom Saviello:
“Although I had fun watching you stretching out and you’re doing gymnastics.”
(Room breaks out in laughter.)
Doug Papa:
“I’ll send you a copy when it gets published.”
Tom Saviello:
“Thank you.”
Doug Papa:
“You’re welcome.”
(Note to readers:
The laughter shifts indicating what I said really wasn’t funny, but more a response of hearing something ‘Geeky.’ Then suddenly uncomfortable silence sets in.)
(Medium pause.)
(Note to readers:
Doug Papa say’s “Hi,” to George Mac Donald, whom was interviewed a week prior.)
George MacDonald
George MacDonald:
“Good afternoon Senator Saviello…Representative Hamper, members of the Environment Natural Resources Committee. I’m George MacDonald. I currently manage the waste management and recycling program located at the State Planning Office. What is being passed out to you is the 2010 Waste Generation Disposing Capacity report; and my intent today is, just to walk quickly through it. I know a number of you will read it intently. (Note to readers: Bob Duchesne giggles here.) And will have questions at a later date. But again, given the hour and what is before you, I just like to walk through it. I’ll try to answer any questions you may have. (Pause.)
When you look at the cover…sheet, Ummm…what you’ll see is, just a pictorial display of how the waste, that was generated in the State of Maine, was managed in 2010. Exported 2.4%, landfilled 25.7. Sorry to make you yawn Senator.”
Senator Tom Saviello:
“That’s alright.” (Note to readers: Light giggles heard, along with Bob Duchesne’s signature giggle also heard here.)
George MacDonald:
“Waste to energy 33.2 and recycling…”
Senator Tom Saviello:
“I’ve had to put up with it for years though.” (Note to readers: Bob Duchesne laughs.)
George MacDonald:
“We used to do it to you!”
(George and other heartily laugh.)
George MacDonald:
“There were corners in that laboratory.”
(Note to readers:
Bob Duchesne and a few others laugh.)
George MacDonald:
“Ummm…This is very similar to prior waste generation’s disposal capacity reports. However, this year we focused more on the data, and we don’t go into discussions and possibilities as much as we had in the past. But, what I’d like to do is focus on the key findings; we’re start on page 4. In 2010, like the year before, and the year before that, we saw a decrease in the amount of solid waste generated, by the residents and businesses in the State, about a 3% decline.
The recycling tonnage. The efforts of municipalities and businesses in the State remain strong. But that dipped 1/10th of 1%. And when you look at what recycling really is, is a movement of product. It could be that many tons were actually collected for recycling in 2010 as in 2009; but just weren’t marketed because a low time to shipped yet.
And it could be, you know, the reverse of 2009, you’re able to get more off 2008, so…but when you look at the long range in the last several years, the recycling rate has been around 39% consistent.”
Tom Saviello:
“George can I ask you about that?”
George MacDonald:
“Yes.”
Tom Saviello:
“If you don’t mind. WE, Bob and I, went down to K.T.I., and saw a significant change in their recycling program. Which is outstanding. Talking about, sharing that with the other members of the Committee, does that calculate, into what’s been recycled?”
George MacDonald:
“We are not including in our tonnage, thee, Ummm…residue form K.T.I. that’s going to Juniper Ridge, as “alternative daily cover.” That’s hasn’t been something that’s been historically included. So, at any landfill, where a waste is being used instead of natural product, we haven’t been including that in the recycling.
The tradition has been, to use the traditionally recycled materials…as the tonnage of us being recycling. We don’t include, for example, the grass that’s mowed beside the road…and left.
1 pm at the transportation committee on 2/14/12
According to
125th Maine Legislatue
Second regular session -2012
Legislative Document No.1671 S.P. 570 In Senate, Decembert 21,2011
An Act to Provide Funding to the Departmnent of Transportation for a Feasibility Study of an East-West Highway.
(Emergency.) Approved for introduction by a majority of the Legislarive Council pursuant to Joint Riule 203.
Reveived by the Secretary of the Senate on December 19, 2011. Referred to the committee on Appropriations and Financial Affairs pursuant to Joint Rule 308.2 and ordered printed pursuant to Joint rule 218.
Joseph G. Carleton, Jr. Secretary of the Senate.
Presented by Senator Thomas of Somerset.
Cosponsored by Representive Turner of Burlington and
Senators: KATZ of Kennebec, LANGLEY of Hancock, MARTIN of Kennebec, PLOWMAN of Penobscot, Prresident RAYE of Washington, SHERMAN of Aroostook, SNOWE-MELLO of Androscoggine, Representives: CLARK of Millinocker, CUSHING of Hampden, HAYES of Buckfield, WALLACE of Dexter.
1 Emergency preamble. Whereas, acts and resolves of the Legislature do not
2 become effective until 90 days after adjournment unless enacted as emergencies; and
3 Whereas, this legislation provides funds in fiscal year 2011-12 to cover the costs
4 associated with an independent feasibility study if an east-west highway; and
5 Whereas, in the judgement of the Legislature, these facts create an emergency within
6 the meaning of the Constitution of Maine and require the following legislation as
7 immediatley necessary for the preservation of the public peace, health and safety; now,
8 therefore,
9 be it enacted by the People of the State of Maine as follows:
10 Sec. 1. Approproiations and allocations. The following appropriations and
11 allocations are made.
12 TRANSPORTATION, DEPARTMENT OF
13 Highway and Bridge Capital 0406
14 Initiative: Provides a one-time General Fund Appropriation of $300,000 in fiscal year
15 2011-12 to the Department of Transportation to cover the costs assoiciated with an
15 independent feasibility study of an east-west highway.
17
18 GENERAL FUND 2011-12 2012-13
19 All Other $300,000 $0
20 __________ ________
21 GENERAL FUND TOTAL $300,000 $0
22 Emergency clause. In view of the emergency cited in the preamble, this
23 legislation takes effect when approved.
24 SUMMARY
25 This bill includes a one-time General Fund appropriation of $300,000 in fiscal year
26 2011-12 to the Department of Transportation to cover the costs associated with an
27 independent feasibility study of an east-west highway.
Page 1- 125LR2358(01)-1
End of reproduction of Document obtained at the Maine State House.
Chris Buchanan Defending Water for Life, in middle of a press conference.
Chris : “…Water from being privatized or co-modified. So one of the…”
Don Carrigan : “Meaning your water being sold?”
Chris : “Mined for profit, out of local communities. That’s what Defending Water for Life is about.”
Don Carrigan : “O.K..”
Chris : “Water for Life, not for profit. Ummm…and the reason why we decided to organize the rally is because we’re really concerned that with this ‘East-West Highway proposal. Ummm…it would open the North Woods of Maine for further exploitation of water, wood and gravel resources, and a raw material context. So, we’re concerned that, Ummm…the materials are going to be leaving this state, not even in a value added…as a value added product. Ummm…which means, that Maine is being used as a through way and not being for local economic vitality. One of the…”
Don Carrigan : “Excuse me.”
Chris : “Sure.”
Don Carrigan : “And you said, you’re concerned about water, but also gravel?”
Chris : “Yeah, we’re also concerned about gravel and woods. But, the primary purpose of Defending Water for Life is to focus on water. Because it is needed for life and therefore putting a value on it, automatically inhibiting access to people. A necessary thing like air.”
Norm Karkos : “So is the point of the whole thing, that the ‘East-West Highway,’ Ummm…accommodates more rapid, more, ah, easier transportation of these commodities? Is that what you’re saying?”
Chris : “That’s one of our main points. Yes. Ummm…That the “east-West Highway,’ would be…its primary a corridor for industry. The number that we’ve heard, from a reliable source is, that they are going to charge $75, for a toll. So folks that are talking that this being economic, ah, stimulus for Maine, Ummm…that’s actually not what the purpose is going to serve. As a private toll road, we do think it’s going to be economically viable for the owner of the toll road. Whose going to be a private corporation. Probably the Cianbro corporation. They’re the ones who have been working on this project for many, many years.”
Glen Adam, from the Associated Press : “Do you plan on offering testimony this afternoon?”
Chris : “Yes, and actually I do have copies of that in my vehicle that I can bring out for you guys.”
Don Carrigan : “And you’re working as a coalition with several other groups?”
Chris : “There are a number of other groups. Ummm…that we’ve contacted, and that stand in solidarity. Ummm…Friends of the Boundary Mountains, Code Pink. We talked to people from ‘Bring our War Money Home,’ Earth First, the N.R.C.M.. They’ve got their hands full with some other stuff today. But they’re also in solidarity with this. I’ve been working against it for a long time.”
Don Carrigan : “So, excuse me, ‘Bring our War Dollars Home,’ is involved with you too?”
Chris : “Yeah. Because, we’re looking at what money is being spent on and what the priorities of the state are. And when we look at this highway, it’s really a demonstration of where we want to focus our efforts on in Maine. Ummm…building another highway, where we’re going to be burning more fossil fuels, when we’re facing increased fuel costs. Ummm…and possibly the, you know, a day when we’re not going to be having oil, Umm…seems like a really poor choice for directing Maine citizens and any sort of infrastructure that’s going to permanently damage the environment.”
Q : “Can I get your name?”
A : “I’m Glen Adam from ‘A.P.’”
Q : “From where?”
A : “A.P..”
Q : “O.K., O.K., I got to get this guys’ name. Excuse me sir, can I get your name?”
Don Carrigan : “Why don’t I…what’s your name?”
Q : “Doug Papa.”
Don Carrigan : “And what do you do Doug?”
Q : “ I write for an online magazine. This is…”
Don Carrigan : “Say it again.”
Q : “I write for an online magazine. This is from an ongoing series.”
Don Carrigan : “I see, O.K..”
Q : “I just want to get your name for the transcription.”
Don Carrigan : “My name is Don Carrigan.”
Q : “Thank you Don. I appreciate that. And that’s, errr…NewsCenter, ah…”
Don Carrigan : “We’re WCHS Television.”
A : “Thanks I appreciate that.”
(At this point Chris Buchanan is heard talking in the background.)
Chris : “…A private project…Ummm…$300,000 that initially fund this. The Federal government of by private funders is what Senator Thomas proposed. And that’s how it made it into Emergency Legislation. Ummm…but now they are asking money from the General Fund. And the General Fund comes from Maine Tax Payers. Ummm…When we’re facing cuts in Social Security, Ummm…and, ah, Education, and other social services, it doesn’t seem to me, to make a lot of sense to use taxpayer money to fund a private toll road. Ummm…again the toll will cost $75. Ummm…and it will be used primarily for Canadian transport trucks. It will run from Calais to Colburn Gore, And not even connected in with Maine Ports. We’re talking about, Ummm…Canadian ports. Ummm…where resources from…Imports and Exports from Canada will be using this road to go straight across Maine. It will still be…make sense for them to not have to go around the State. Ummm…but for Mainers, we will just be getting a huge road. Ummm…pollution. Ummm…Infrastructure development through some land that we believe needs to be, Ummm…for Maine people to live on.”
Norm Karkos : “so it’s a combination of the economics and conservation. Of your perspective, of the conservation, what are you most concerned about?”
Chris : “Ummm…we’re really concerned about…Ummm…first of all, opening up that…Ummm…area for more exploitation of raw materials. Ummm…Including bulk water, ah, timber, and gravel, primarily. Ummm…We’re also concerned that, Ummm…in order to fund the highway, that they would be considering it as a ‘super corridor.’ So that they might run something like a pipeline along it, or transmission lines to further industrial wind projects. Ummm… ah, which would also just again be using Maine for, Ummm…resources that are leaving the state, and Maine not getting any money out of that.”
Don Carrigan : “Are you and your other organizations, are you opposed to all expanded commercial use of, ah, that part of Maine?”
Chris : “Absolutely not. Ummm…I think, that when we talk about commercial use, Ummm…we want to look at what is going to support people long term. And we’re about supporting people long term. And we’re about supporting local community development and local economic viability. And you do that, by supporting small businesses. Ummm…revitalizing businesses in towns. Ummm…and…ummm…self employment initiatives. You certainly don’t do it by opening up a corridor that will increase access for multinational corporations to take our raw materials out and and leave us with very little to do those activities on.”
Don Carrigan : “Yeah, supporters as you know, of this concept, have said for years that, it would give, ah, northern and rural parts of the state more access to Canadian, but particular U.S. markets and therefore would help those kinds of businesses grow.”
Chris : “Right. Ummm…I know that is what has been said. Ummm…I think if they’re looking at paying $75 to hop on the toll road, Ummm…to go see their neighbor, that’s probably not who it’s for.”
Norm Karkos : “Is there some sort of compromise, you’re going to reach between the two; between your side and their side here? Is there something you’re looking for a ‘happy medium,’ here? Of is this just something on one extreme to the other here?”
Chris : “Ummm…I think for us, Ummm…when we’re talking about building the highway, we’re opposed to it, through and through. Ummm…the idea, again of, you know, creating a large highway. Which is just going to be encouraging the burning of more fossil fuels, when we are facing, ‘peak oil,’ is not the direction that we think that is good for Maine, or Maine’s people. And we think it would really harm Maine’s identity, and the heart of people live here for.”
Don Carrigan : “And can you expand on your issue about water and such?”
Chris : “Absolutely. Ah, Defending Water for Life in Maine is an Organization that works to protect water from privatization and co- modification. Ummm…water is for life. Water is not something that should be sold for profit. Just like air should not be sold for profit. Ummm…it was a number of years ago, people started pushing bottled water, saying that drinking water was dirty. Here in Maine we do have some of the best water in the world. And it’s been liked to. You know, a Texas of oil. Ummm… like a Saudi Arabia in oil, Maine is like that with water. Their next ‘Blue Gold’s.’ We want to make sure it’s here for people and not sold to companies like Nestle, who definitely have a lot of straws in Maine already, Ummm…for profit.”
Don Carrigan : “You have no doubt that this would allow for more water to be taken out?”
Chris : “Absolutely.”
Jim Freeman : “Don, I’m with this group. It’s yeah. In Grand Lake stream, you got all this area. There’s tons and tons of fresh water in this area.”
Don Carrigan : “But they could go after it now. Obviously.”
Jim : “No. They put a pipe…They want to put in a pipeline.”
Don Carrigan : “How do you know?”
Jim : “Well that’s part of the original plan. There’s five things in this corridor.”
Don Carrigan : “O.K..”
Jim : “O.K.. Interstate highway. An L.N.G. pipeline.”
Don Carrigan : “MM-Hun.”
Jim : “A water line. A rail line and a utility grid. A utility corridor, which will ‘T’ off in Costigan, or at the interstate and go south.”
Don Carrigan : “Do you oppose all five of those?”
Jim : “Ah, no. I don’t oppose the rail line.”
Don Carrigan : “Mm-Hun.”
Jim : “The rail line of course. But I do oppose the water line, and I do oppose L.N.G., which is going to go across the state. It’s not going to go to any entities in state. So, it’s a resource extraction. That’s what it’s all about. Gravel will go to Europe to repave roads. Wood pellets will go to Europe to be mixed with coal, for the, ah, to stay within the coal plants in Europe to stay in the Kyoto agreement. And water is going to be the next oil. And just water, by the boatload literally.”
Don Carrigan : “Alright, thank you.”
Jim : “You’re welcome.”
Q : “Excuse me sir, can I get your name for the transcription?”
Norm Karkos : “My name is Norm Karkos from News 8.”
Q : “Thanks I appreciate that Norm.”
Norm Karkos : “Where are you from?”
Q : “Ah, I work for an online magazine and, ah, I’m just doing transcriptions. Just part of the, ah…”
Norm Karkos : “O.K..”
Q : “Thanks. I appreciate that.”
Norm Karkos : “O.K..”
Interview with Jim Freeman
Q : “Ah, I’m talking to Jim Freeman. Now Jim…”
A : “MM-Hun.”
Q : “This is…Is this going to be a private toll road?”
A : “Private toll-road, my understanding, and it’s going to be a $75 toll. And when people say, ‘Oh-oh, all that money.’ But right now trucks are coming down from Canada on Route 9. They’re going onto the interstate in Bangor. They go down through Maine, New Hampshire, onto the Mass Turnpike. Go across Massachusetts, to the New York Through-way, and go up to Montréal and Chicago that way. So this will save them tons and tons of miles. And tons and tons of Diesel fuel.”
Q : “Only like two hours through it’s going to save them, right?”
A : “Oh-no, it will save them more than that. You look at the route.”
Q : “O.K..”
A : “It’s going to go right across Maine, upper Vermont, New Hampshire, New York State, right onto Chicago.”
Q : “Oh.”
A : “And they’re going to bring…The primary thing they’re going to bring there would be containers, Ummm…with Target and Wal-Mart. You know, they’ll bring containers there to send to the Mid-West.”
Q : “Oh, I’m sorry. I meant it’s going to save the Canadian Maritime Providences two hours to go onto Montreal.”
A : “Oh yeah, for sure. For sure, yeah. You’re right there, exactly.”
Q : “O.K.. Now is the State Police going to be able to patrol this, or since this is a private road, is there going to be no police presence?”
A : “No, they’re probably have State Police presence in there. But they’re probably get a private thing. But they’re probably contract out with the State Police, you know. But it’s mostly going to be truck traffic. It won’t be like ’95.’” (Chuckles.)
Q : “Right, well about that…Do you remember the issue I brought up about the Bath Salts?”
A : “Yeap.”
Q : “And so forth?”
A : “Yeap.”
Q : “You know, Maine Maritime Providences going straight to Montreal.”
A : “Oh yeah, oh yeah.”
Q : “You know, it’s the same insinuation I made.”
A : “They’re love it. They’re love it. And you are probably correct with that. They’re love it. So, (chuckles.) I think your instincts are right on.”
Q : “So it will probably be non-stop, you know, illegal substances going from one end of Canada…”
A : “Right.”
Q : “…Cutting through Canada, so they’re bypassing…”
A : “Yup. Yup. Yup.”
Q : “So they won’t have to deal with the Mounties.”
A : “Right.”
Q : “And they will just deal with the State Police who…”
A : “Right. And it’s going to be used, you know, they’ll have that under the guise of resources and trucking and…you know, but, it’s mostly for trucks. They’re be cars, but how many people go that route? How many people drive from Calais to Colburns Gore? (Chuckles.) You know, they don’t. they come from Calais down to Bangor, shop and do whatever. But it’s not designed to do that, at all. So, it’s definitely an industrial corridor.”
Q : “So do you think it is kinda, ironic, they say it’s a total private way to do this, but they are asking the State for $300,000? And once again, after they…”
A : “I think that’s another scam. (Chuckles.) Another scam. I bet you the feasibility study is already done. So they are just going to get reimburse.”
Q : “So do you think they are taking money out of the scenic by pass/ scenic highway money fund to fund this?”
A : “I don’t know where they are going to get it, but I hope they don’t try that. Because that brings tourists into the state, you know, from other states, for the scenic bypass. People look at those routes come here specially to drive those ways. And they’re trying to cut that, slash, just axe that whole budget. It’s ridiculous for that.”
Q : “What do you think of the pollution through? Like the run off the oil and gas, and all that, going into the Kennebec and Penobscot river?”
A : “Yeah, that’s an issue, but I don’t think it’s much of an issue, once they take all the resources. They’re polluting the hell out of that already. You know, they’re pumping out all the gravel. Taking all the trees , and taking all the water. It’s all polluting, you know, everything.”
Q : “Oh yeah, just incidentally, I still haven’t heard from Ken Fletcher, from the Department of Energy, about the, ah…”
A : “Surprising. And the other thing about the ‘East-West Highway,’ is that it will expedite many, many more windmills. Because it will give windmills an easy ‘tie-in,’ into the grid. Which they don’t always have now.”
Q : “Now did you read that ‘open letter to Pattie Aho,’? About the Florida Power and Light? How she messed up on the Flagship Lake project?”
A : “I did not read that.”
Q : “O.K.. Sean Mahoney, form the Conservative Law Foundation.”
A : “Conservation Law Foundation. Yup, Yup.”
Q : “Ah, Conservation Law. He sent an open letter to Pattie Aho, because she had intentionally or not intentionally messed up. And now Florida Power and Light has…is not going to have any, ah, interference from the state for the next 25 years.”
A : “Right.”
Q : “Because of a Licenses agreement, and that’s what Sean was complaining about.”
A : “Right. Right. He had a good point. He had a real good point.”
Q : “Now is it kinda consequential that the ‘East-West Highway,’ might be going near that, ah…”
A : “Landfill?”
Q : “Nope, nope. Ah, the Hydro Dam from Flagship Lake.”
A : “Yeah. They’ll just tie that into the grid. It’s also consequential it’s going by the Juniper Ridge Landfill. They’ll be able to bring stuff right into Juniper Ridge, on the Highway.”
Q : “Aaaahhhhh…”
(Note to readers. I’m catching on at this point to the Juniper Ridge Landfill Connection.)
A : “No secondary roads, which is a problem right now. You know, the secondary roads. There was just an accident on Bennoch road. (Note to readers. I Doug Papa messed up royalty in part 4 by printing Bennett Road, during the Jim Freeman Interview. It is actually the Bennoch Road.) There’s been different things happening on Bennoch Road. They want to get it all of the secondary Roads and put it on the highways. So it’s all tied. It’s all tied.”
Q : “O.K..”
A : “Thanks.”
Q : “Thanks.”
Interview with Diane Messer
Q : “O.K..I actually posted the interviews, online for free, at Big Time Music Trade .com.”
A : “Un-Hun.”
Q : “You click on articles and you click on…(Note to readers this part has been omitted, due to the changing of ArchEnemys 6,7,8 and 9. To the Occupy Augusta Interviews 1, 2,3, and 4.) I actually did the interview we did, for the Governor of Maine’s Press, ah, ah, it’s actually consequential. But three people retired since these interviews began. We had, ah…”
A : “Which three?”
Q : “Don, ah, Don, ah, Darryl Brown from the State Planning Office.”
A : “Yeah, Yeah.”
Q : “I contacted Edie Smith over at the Maine Fish and Wildlife. I called them again…”
A : “You know who we need to retire? Patricia Aho.”
Q : (Chuckles.) “Yeah. But ah, ah, but last week, ah, ah, Peter Rodgers from the Governors Press, ah, the Governors Communications Director put in his two weeks’ notice.”
A : “Seriously?”
Q : “Yes.”
A : “And what was his reason?”
Q : “Ah, I didn’t get it from him. But I did get it from another individual. I’m not going to say his name, but he’s got, I guess he’s got two little ones at home and this job’s taking like 80/90 hours from his work week and so forth.”
A : “Ah-Yeah.”
Q : “So, he wants to spend more time and stuff like, like. He’s actually help me get a real interview with ah, when she gets off of vacation, Samantha De Pom, hyphen, I forget what the other half of her name is, of the Maine Department of Environmental Protection. To grant an email response about everything about the Occupy Augusta Interviews and so forth.”
A : “Ah-Ha! Interesting. Well you’ve been busy.”
Q : “Yeah. I’ve been kinda, hypothetically twisting some arms. Because I’ve been threatening to…”
A : “Good, twist some more.”
Q : (Chuckles.) “Yes. Yes.”
A : “Well, metaphorically speaking.”
Q : “Right. Right. Right, so, do you want to talk about what’s going on here today?”
A : “Ah, well, there is a proposal that they’ve turned into an Emergency for an ‘East-West Highway.’ Why is a study, a proposal for a study, an Emergency? Very good question. They said, ‘Well, it’s just a study.’ Then it should not have an emergency note on it. Ah, we suspect there are other Ulterior motives. Possibly a pipeline that’s going to be a right of way for the, ah, toll-road. It’s going to benefit the users. It’s going to be a Canadian conduit to carrying cargo. It’s not going to benefit the state of Maine. Somebody’s going to be Making Plenty of money off the tolls and the construction, but it’s not going to be Mainers.”
Q : “Well I read online, that ah, a million trucks might be going through that a year. If you times that by $75 each truck, that’s probably going to surpass the billion dollars, that’s going to cost Cianbro to manufacture this, ‘East-West Highway.’”
A : “Huh. Well whose going to get the money?”
Q : “It’s toll road, private, so it’s going to be Cianbro.”
A : “Yeah. So, ah, why’s it an ‘emergency,’?”
Q : “And why do they need public funds, on another study since the last one was done back in 1998?”
A : “Yeap. Well you know more about it than I do. Sorry. Ha-Ha! You need to find somebody else to interview. Sorry about that. I…I can only spread myself so thin. I’m on a number of other issues. And very busy working on the ‘Foreclosure bill,’ ah L.D. 145.”
Q : “Do you want to go into detail about that?”
A : (Signs.) “I’m tired. I got 4…3 hours sleep last night. I’m burning on fumes. No, I…I finished when the sky was starting to getting a little bit light. And I said, ‘I got to at least get a 3 hour nap, before I go out there today.’”
Q : “Well how about an email response latter on like, ah, when you get a chance and some more sleep in the future?”
A : “O.K. sure.”
Q : “O.K. Diane. Thanks, I appreciate that.”
A : “You’re welcome. Take care.”
Q : “You too.”
Doug Talking into tape recorder
Doug : “O.K.. I’m going to read off a couple of signs here, that the people are saying. It’s says, ah: ‘Kiss your stupid mountains good-bye. Bulk money for private roads.’ Next sign says: ‘Jobs, Jobs, Jobs, Jobs, Jobs, Jobs, (All six of them.)’ That’s a good one. Ah, ‘Money for the road, robs our homes.’ Next sign says: ‘Yes public service. No East-West Highway.’ Next sign says: ‘No East-West, while Maine Care goes South?’ Next Sign says: ‘Environmental devastation is not feasible.’ Next sign, Paul Schroeder sign: ‘No more roads, ever.’ Ah next sign says: ‘No public money for private projects.’ Next sign says: ‘No taxpayer money for private East-West Highway.’ The big sign – two people, saying: ‘No East-West Highway.’ It shows, ah, Maine being squished by an ‘East-West Highway.’ And we got three bowls. One shows pipes. Next one shows water and the next one shows money. And then we got the last sign, is a Maine illustration with a yellow strip going across for the ‘East-West Highway.’ Can I get your name for the transcription?”
Interview with Chris Buchanan.
A : “This is…I’m Chris Buchanan, and I organize with, ‘Defending Water for Life,’ for in Maine.”
Q : “O.K.. And , ah, Chris do you mind if I ask you a couple of questions or are you? O.K.. O.K.. Ah, my name is Doug Papa, and I’ve been writing an online series for an online magazine called: ‘The Occupy Augusta Interviews.’ I’ve been interviewing Diane, Will, ah, Jim Freeman and also Hillary Lister and Paul McCarrier.”
A : “Great.”
Q : “And this has been going on since October, and so forth. And it’s probably going to be going on for a long-time and, so forth. The “East-West Highway.’ Now are you surprised that Cianbro is boasting, that this is all private; yet they are asking the state for $300,000; even through in 1998 they got $400,000 for a similar study?”
A : “Ummm…I am surprised that they are boasting about that. Ummm…I’m surprised they’re boasting about it being a private project. And that Senator Doug Thomas is going around, Ummm…actively lying about to communities about whose going to pay for it/ where the money is coming from. So, just on January23rd, he made a presentation to the Dover-Foxcroft select board. Ummm…and told them the money would not be coming from taxpayers. Ummm…when he has…he knows…he knew at the time the money would be coming from the General Fund, and that is coming from taxpayers. So anyway…”
Q : “So it’s not coming from the, ah, The money ‘Scenic Highways fund?’”
A : “No, it’s not.”
Q : “O.K….O.K..O.K.. Yeah, so I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to interrupt you there. I just had to clarify that.”
A : “That’s alright. No it’s not. It’s coming from the General Fund. Ummm…which is…which…you know, when Senator Doug Thomas originally tried to put this through, Ummm…the committee, so it would be considered as an emergency bill. He said, ‘It would be either funded by Federal money or private money; And that it would it would only be an emergency situation that they have to look at the General Fund.’ Well, now we are looking at the General Fund. Ummm…and it seems like an absurd time to spend taxpayer money on a private project. Especially when that private project will not only be good for Maine, it’s going to be devastating to Maine. Ummm…”
Q : “Now on that same note, before we move forward.”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “Ah, do you think the study, already been…not official, but in your opinion, do you think that the study has already been done from Cianbro and their other partner? I forget, the…it was online. I guess they teamed up with someone to do a study on their own staff time. Do you think the study is already done and they’re just trying to get the money so they can pocket it and so forth?”
A : “The problem with the study that already exists is, it isn’t an ‘investor grade,’ study. And to be honest, I’m not sure what the distinction is.”
Q : “Well, do you think they did their own study on top of the 1998 study and they are just trying to get the money for themselves so they can pocket it?”
A : “I know…”
Q : “Unofficially through.”
A : “I know, that they are trying to get the money so they can pocket it.”
Q : “O.K.. O.K..”
A : “I’m not sure about what the status is of them having a study. And I actually try not to speculate too much about things I haven’t seen, because I feel the facts speak for themselves.”
Q : “Right. Well I just…because I went online yesterday. And it like, ah…I think it was tollroads.com or tollroads.net.”
A : “Yeah, the toll…Yeap.”
Q : “And they did like a huge article about that. And they said, that Cianbro was using own staff time to do the study. And it’s like, well if they are using their own staff time, and they are using their money, How come they need a hundred…$300,000 from the state to do another study, on top of the studies that are already out there?”
A : “Right. So my guess is that they would be…Ummm…I need…I have to look at that article. I’m not sure if I’ve seen that one. Ummm…but, my guess is that the study they are doing isn’t quote / unquote, ‘good enough, for the extent of the project.’ But that they’re investing some time if it makes sense for them as an investment. So, what it looks like to me now, from what you said, is that, Ummm…they did enough of a study to figure out that it’s an investment worth making. And so now they know they need an investment grade study, so they are asking taxpayers to pay for it.”
Q : “Do you think Mainers will even profit from this, ‘East-West Highway’?”
A : “No. I actually think that it’s going to take a lot” of money, Ummm…out of the state and impact Maine in a way that’s going to be irrecoverable. So some reason…one of the big reasons that people live in Maine is because it’s beautiful and it has amazing resources. And that’s a big part of the identity of the state. So, when we talk about this highway, that’s going to extract raw materials mostly from multi-national corporations…we’re talking about Irving, Trans-Canada, Plum Creek…Ummm…Cianbro is a Maine based company and they are going to own the toll road. And that’s a whole separate matter. But the people who are going to be exporting resources, from it, are also Nestle. That money doesn’t stay here. That money isn’t going to Maine people. They don’t spend their profits here and they don’t pay taxes here. Ummm…so in the meantime, for all of” that goodness, that makes ‘Maine,’ Maine, leaving the state, Ummm…we’re actually taking away the local economic viability for people, that might do value added products on the land, of might be able to have a homestead there. Or might want to have a community there, with like, a downtown district that attracts tourism. Ummm…I think it’s really going to harm tourism. Ummm…which is a huge boost to the Maine economy every year. Ummm…to have the…”
Q : “So instead of having people coming from out-of-state to get away from that, they are going to” be like: ‘Why should I leave my state, because Maine is turning into the environment, as in the state I’m in right now? Why should I spend the gas money’?”
A : “Yeah, exactly. It’s just, if it’s another state that’s just stripped of resources, and Ummm…full of business friendly infrastructure. And when I say, ‘business,’ I mean like multi-national corporation business. Ummm…I don’t mean local business. Because it’s local business that does attract tourism. Ummm…and it does attract more people to live here. That want to spend money here and be here and” invest in the beauty of our state. Ummm…this is just clearly, clearly not that.”
Q : “Now do you think…what…I heard that there might not be any on ramps or off-ramps on this. Have you heard the same thing?”
A : “I have heard the same thing. Ummm…I do” know they’ll be having an on and off on ramp at Brownville Junction. So, they can connect with the rail yard there, because that’s the one of the main rail yards in central Maine. Ummm…which again, is just very obvious how pro-industry it is. Ummm…but other than that they might have a couple just for gas refueling stations. Ummm…which we expect to be owned by Irving / run by Irving.”
Q : “So you don’t think they’re going to just have them too roads, the gas stations right on the highway so they won’t even have the on ramps and off ramps?”
A : “Yeah, that’s what we expect.”
Q : “O.K.. O.K..”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “So do you think ah…what do you think about the police presence is going to be on the highway, if this actually goes through?”
A : “Well, if there…if there was a police presence, that would again be taxpayer money going to fund a private project that doesn’t benefit us. They’d be monitoring Canadian transport trucks, going, you know, in and out of Maine, with their goods. It doesn’t serve any protection for people of Maine or ‘serve us,’ in any way. Other than taking our money.”
Q : “Right. Well, the reason why I brought that up, because , is, I’m not insinuating anything. But it’s just a coincidence how A) You know, dealing with a different highway. Ah, are you familiar with the Juniper Ridge Landfill?”
A : “Ah, yes!”
Q : “O.K.. Now we got Bath Salts have been banned. We got all these out of state container trucks coming in. And all of a sudden, Bam! Bangor’s been hit with a Bath Salt problem, that’s beyond belief.”
A : “Mm-hun. Mm-hun.”
Q : “And now, we’re going to have an ‘East-West Highway,’ going from the Maine maritime providences, and it’s going to go straight through Maine. To save truckers two hours. It’s going to bypass the Canadian Mounted Police, and otherwise they would have to go through the Saint Lawrence Valley Highway, ah, then go straight to Montreal. Which is going to be straight to Detroit and so forth. And it’s like, well, if there’s not going to be that big of a police presence, or if there is a police presence on that ‘East-West Highway,’ how many trucks are they going to pull over and how much illegal stuff could actually go through. And, is this …Yeah! What do you think about that?”
A : Well, I think that’s an interesting consideration that I had not thought about. I would have to think about that more.”
Q : “What do you think about it right now?”
A : “Ummm…I think that, ah, in that way, of it being a through way also, Ummm…it’s highly possible that you’d be increasing trafficking of illegal substances across the state. I don’t know if it would increase distribution in the State. Again, because there’s not going to be much access to the local people or the local economies.”
Q : “But there has to be one.”
A : “But there only has to be one. So…”
Q : “And if it’s Bath Salts. Which probably might not be illegal in the Maritimes. I’m not sure of the Maritime laws. Then we might fac3e even a bigger problem with Bath Salts. Thanks to the new ’East-West Highway,’ that people really aren’t supporting.”
A : “Right, yeah. That’s absolutely true. Ummm…I think that it could definitely create that as an issue, and I appreciate you bringing that up.”
Q : “No you mentioned Nestle. They’re ah…when I worked for the Maine Marijuana Initiative Policy in Lewiston. It was way back in, I think it was like 2006 or 2007. Ah, Nestle was a big thing about exporting water out of state. Are they the big pushers with the water pipe line, for the water going to Europe?”
A : “You know, they’ve been really quiet. So, I’m not sure if Nestle is specially at the table for that. Ummm…I don’t have those resources to say that one way or another. But I know it’s Nestle that wants to export Bulk water around the world, so that they can profit it. They are already the largest water bottler in the world. They already have, I can’t remember, I don’t know if it’s 8 or 11 sites in Maine where they are mining water and selling it under the guise of ‘Poland Spring.’ Ummm…so, you know, just furthering…right now it’s very cost prohibited to be trucking water. It’s, you know, it’s heavy, it takes a lot of gas. Even to truck water to the existing bottling plants they have, is one of their only expenses. But if they had a super corridor, where they could be extracting water and moving it in Bulk, onto ships, and just get it right out of Maine and into their global markets. I think they would be” very pleased with that.”
Q : “And when you say, ‘bulk,’ you’re talking the pipeline?”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “And when they extract water, do the community wells have a decrease in their water as well?””
A : “Absolutely. The way that ground water works, is when water is extracted from an aquifer, it lowers the ground water table in that spot. So, if it’s at all close to, any sort of, you know, stream, pond, it will lower. It all lowers. So a company like Nestle which is pumping, you know, usually a few hundred thousand gallons a day. I think about 250,000 to four hundred some thousand is average. That’s massively reducing the water table in an area. So, in Fryeburg actually, their pumping has made Lovewell Pond get much warmer.”
Q : “What Pond?”
A : “Lovewell Pond in Fryeburg. So, they’re pumping a lot of the spring water out. Which is increasing the temperature of the water. The water is getting warmer.”
Q : “So that’s going to affect the fish.”
A : “Oh yeah, absolutely. It affects the fish and it has affected the pond. There has been allergy blooms, and the water has changed dramatically since this…”
Q : “So with the Allergy blooms, that means it’s not very drinkable after that.”
A : “Well, they’re still pulling the springs water out. What they are doing is, is pulling the spring water out that keeps the lake colder and cleaner. So, the lake its’ self is not where they are getting drinking water from. But they are pulling from the springs that feed the lake. If that makes sense.”
Q : “O.K., O.K.. This…I’m sorry. I’m a little shocked here.”
A : (Laughs.)
Q : “Now how about other companies , like ah, you think like, ‘Coca-Cola or Pepsi’ that use water and so forth?”
A : “Coca-Cola and Pepsi both use water, but primary they get their water from, actually, like New York drinking water. (Chuckles.) they just take public drinking water, tap water, and run it through a pure filtration system and sell it for one thousand to two thousand above the cost of tap water.”
Q : “Now, do you think, ah, this also might be a corridor to export energy, ah, outside the state of Maine for the Canadian Providences as well?”
A : “Absolutely. You know there’s someone else here that can…”
Q : “I already talked to Jim about this.”
A : “Oh, O.K. great. But yeah, I think they are eyeing the Liquid Natural Gas pipeline. That’s a fuel that would just go straight through the State of Maine. They’ve been talking about…they really badly want to get the tar sands out of Alberta. So, you know it’s possible that they may push that. They’re been talking about the ‘Enbridge pipeline,’ for that. Which currently runs tight by Sebago Lake.”
Q : “Is that the one that was mentioned in the Portland Phoenix last week?”
A : “Yes, yes, yes. That’s highly, highly controversial. Obviously bringing extremely dirty fuel, down through Maine and over one of the significant aquifers in Maine and over one of the significant aquifers in Maine. That provides drinking for, I think it was 1/6th of the population of the state. It was a huge number.”
Q : “And that’s a World War II pipeline. So it can’t exactly be all that, ‘up to snuff.’ Wouldn’t you agree?”
A : “I would agree.”
Q : “So, it’s not an exact science, but it’s like an Environmental Catastrophe just waiting to happen, for a profit, and it’s really a gamble.”
A : “We think so, yeap, absolutely.”
Q : “O.K., and do you have anything else to say about this ‘East-West Highway,’ proposal? You can say as much as you want by the way.”
A : “Ummm…I think that my closing point on it is going to be: Think about the future we want for Maine. Why are we here? What do we want? Do we want to burn more fossil fuels, or do we want to be looking at creative ways to support our people and our environment? We’re here because we love it here, and if we permanently…”
Q : “Whoa! I got to stop you there.”
A : “O.K..”
Q : “What do you think about that, the spin, o.k.? Because I read this thing online about Cianbro, the C.E.O. and President is like: ‘Oh, this is going to save fossil fuels, because, it’s going to save truckers 2 hours from going around Maine.’ And do you think that’s a bunch of ah…you know, ‘spin,’ and so forth? Where it’s not really environmental friendly? Because of the, let’s say, the run-offs, that’s going to go onto the Kennebec and the, ah, Penobscot, from the oils and the anti-freeze.”
A : “Yeah, that and the diesel fuel consumption. They’re looking at it, in a very short term context. And what I’m asking right now is to look at it in a long term context. Yes, right now, we are using a large deal of truck transport to move goods across the country and around the world. And it’s not good. We’re facing climate change and we’re facing huge issues with our planet changing. And so, for Peter Vigue to say, you know, ‘Well, it’s happening, so we’re just continue the same and will actually be more efficient.’ That’s crazy.” (Chuckles.)
Q : “It is, it is. And the other point I wanted to bring up too is, ah…oh, It was just on the tip of my tongue too. Ah, Ah, you were talking about the, ah, ah, OH! It was in the newspaper, the Kennebec Journal. Ah, that your group talked about the ‘wet-land,’ issue, This, this is going…can you go more into detail about that?”
A : “I’ll try to. This is actually something I need to look more into, and work with like a hydro-geologist on more closely. And I haven’t done that yet. But I do know that, you know, it’s going to go by, Grand Lake Stream. Ummm…that there’s one of the largest aquifers in the state up there. Ummm… wetlands are some of the most, Ummm, economically. Economically. (Chuckles.) I did mean economically.”
Q : “Right, right, right. right.”
A : “I didn’t mean economically.”
Q : “Environmental.”
A : “Environmentally divers eco-systems.”
Q : “And it’s like an aqua fill by itself.”
A : “Yeah, it’s an aqua fill by itself. It attracts so many animals. There’s so much wildlife that needs a wet area to live. Bears need to raise their cubs around them. You know, they support fish. They support otters, beavers, birds.”
Q : “Things that eat mosquitoes, that we don’t want.”
A : “Absolutely, that’s right, and black flies. And so, for us to, you know, maintain as much of that as possible, is also a way for us to maintaining the wealth of the state. Our animals, our diversity of our animals and our plant life and our trees, are certainly all…consider them a wealth of Maine. Things that we co-exist with and we all need to survive together.”
Q : “Do you know if this is going to go near Flagship Lake, by any chance?”
A : “I don’t.”
Q : “O.K.. Are you familiar with the ‘Open Letter to Pattie Aho,’ that the Conservation Law Foundations Sean Mahoney made?”
A : “I am not. I know that Pattie Aho is the new…I know she’s been doing some stuff. But I don’t.”
Q : “Are you…”
A : “Can you tell me more about it?”
Q : “Yup. Yup. Because we’re actually going to do a re-print of that. Ah, it’s not word for word, but pretty much, from what my understanding is: When Pattie Aho was not the official Department of Maine Commissar. She was known about the Flagship Lake and Florida Light and Power Company. Now the person who was retiring.”
A : “Did you say the Four Power?”
Q : “Florida.”
A : “Florida Power.”
Q : “And Light Company.”
A : “Florida Light, O.K.. Sorry, O.K..”
Q : “I guess they got a hydro dam up in, ah, Flagship Lake and so forth.”
A : “O.K..”
Q : “Well, she kinda dropped the ball. So, now the state has no say about the environmental impact at Flagship Lake for the next 25 years.”
A : “Wow! O.K..”
Q : “Yeah.”
A : “No, I wasn’t aware of that.”
Q : “So, and I looking at a map, and I was like, ‘Wow! That looks like it’s going to go right near the ‘East-West Highway.’ ‘Cuz it’s pretty near Colburns Gore.”
A : “Right.”
Q : “What a consequence! You know? I know about the huge export of electricity.”
A : “Right.”
Q : “to the out of state, because I’m having a hard time, even though he’s been seemingly co-operative, Ken Fletcher. I’ve been working with the Governors’ Press Secretary’s office, to get a statement about these power lines being upgraded and all the power being shipped out of state.”
A : “Right.”
Q : “And the statement Jim Freeman made about, ah, about the, ah, this ‘East-West Highway.’ About how’s it’s going to ‘T,’ off at Costigan, or Old Town area.”
A : “Right.”
Q : “To ship the power south and then it’s going to go to the other places too. That’s why they want to build all, ah, these windmills.”
A : “Right.”
Q : “And I was at the Environmental Resource Committee meeting, and they were talking like: ‘Why are we?’ You know, ‘we’re talking about wind Mills here and we got dams that are not working at full capacity. We got an oil plant down in Portland that could provide Maine with 18% of its power. But it’s only used as a back-up. It’s only providing 1% of Maine’s power.’ And all this electricity has just been shipped out of State. We’re using taxpayer dollars to ship the power out of state. And all of a sudden this, ‘East-West Highway,’ comes up and it’s like: What a consequence here. And it’s going right by Flagship Lake which is, what Pattie Aho ‘dropped the ball on,’ and she was a ,ah, former lobbyist for Pierce Atwood.”
A : “Mm-hun.”
Q : “And she had a meeting. According to the letter, she had a meeting with another Pierce Atwood Attorney, in her office with Florida Power and Light. And it’s like, how convenient, that she would be able to have that meeting, right in her office, yet, ‘dropped the ball,’ and say: ‘I didn’t know anything about this.”
A : “Wow! Yeah, that is convenient. Ummm…Well I think that is real demonstrative, how Ummm…we’re really under corporate control, in this environment right now.”
Q : “Do you think it’s a consequence ?”
A : “I think that’s why the Occupy Movement is here so strongly and able to unify as many people as it does. Because everybody is feeling like, the not only the state, but the United States and also Globally that we are really under corporate control. And we have lack of access to true democratic process, and our rights.”
Q : “Do you think it’s a consequence, that, ah, our Governor in the past, worked for two corporations that got shut down because of the Department of Environmental Protection, and now, ‘low and behold!’ We got a former lobbyist, who used to work for ‘the dumps,’ ah, a.k.a. Pattie Aho. When 22 years ago, according to Nancy Oden, ‘She was on the wrong side of a dump fight in Washington County, for Township 30 that took 3 years…Pattie Aho’s side spent 3 ½ million dollars. Nancy Oden and her crew spent $75,000 to beat back the dumps…and all of a sudden, there she is! Pattie Aho, head of Maine Department of Environmental Protection!’ And all of these things are getting passed through like it’s a joke.”
A : “I don’t think it’s a consequence. Uh, it’s defiantly not a consequence. I think it’s a big part of the, ah, ah, plain to maintain power and Ummm…keep people confused and divided. And you know, you see it in the appointments President Obama is making too. It’s all the way down.”
Q : “Now are you surprised that we, this is the second, ah, person from the Pierce Atwood, ah, lobbyist firm that we have? Because the one before , well I’m not counting Darryl Brown, because he didn’t exactly get the appointment, but the, ah, Dave Litell was also form Pierce Atwood?”
A : “I’m not sure about that.”
Q : “O.K..O.K..”
A : “I should probably actually go, because I think we are going to head inside for the hearing.”
Q : “O.K.. Well I’ll be interviewing there too. I want to thank you very much and, ah, thank you for your time.”
State Senator Douglas Thomas public comment to D.O.T. committee.
Senator Collins : “This sponsor is our own, ah, Senator Thomas. Please sign the sheet.”
Unidentified voice : “Oh, we don’t use that anymore.”
Senator Thomas : “Oh, we don’t? O.K..”
Senator Collins : “Nope, go ahead.”
Senator Douglas Thomas : “ Good afternoon. Senator Collins, Representative Cebra, members of the Transportation Committee. I’m Doug Thomas, and I still represe4nt State Senate District 27, one of the poorest Senate Districts in Maine. And I’m here today to talk about an opportunity we have to improve the economy of that District and all of Maine. I’m here to talk about the ‘East-West Highway.” And it’s L.D. 1671 and the Deputy Commissar, when he gets up will explain the…When this bill is going to be changed from an Act to a Resolved. So, it just saves a lot of time and ah, effort on all of our parts and he’ll explain it. First of all. Let me thank Peter Vigue and Cianbro, for keeping this idea alive and doing all the work it’s taken and get us this far. Knowing full well, that once State Government becomes involved, the opportunities opened up by this project are opened to everyone and no longer in their private demand. This bill provides the money to do a bankable study of the feasibility of a private toll highway running East to West, across Maine, from New Brunswick to Quebec. This is a study that will determine if this is a good investment or not. If it turns out the way we think it will, this study will be presented to investors, to prove that the business model is sound. That they have a high likely hood of getting a good return on that investment. This is a necessary first step to make this project, we’ve talked about for decades a reality. We’ve studied this idea before, but before it was always going to be a public project. And if we wait for public funding for this road, and the last cost estimate I saw was $12 Billion dollars, we’re going to be awfully old waiting for this to happen. And it will never happen. This time the project would be a private toll road and in many ways similar to the Turnpike. Which is a concept this committee deals with all the time. ‘Why should public money be used to fund the study to build a private road?’ you wonder. For many reasons. First, Investors need to know if a project of this size has public support. Like it or not, government will need to be involved in the permitting, and the law enforcement processes on this road. We’ll need to be involved in many ways that we can’t even think of at this stage. It needs to be done first, not last. We need to get the public first and we need their support first. We don’t need until the last thing. And the amount of public investment is very small when you look at the potential this has to improve a part of Maine, that so disparately needs it. We spent a lot more before and gotten a lot less back.
This idea is important to Maine and the area where I live. I’m not going to try and cover everything. There are people behind me to speak and I don’t want to steal any of their thunder. So, I’d like to finish with one business in my district, that I think this road will be a gereat benefit to. Hardwood Products in Gilford, has recaptured a big part of the small, wooden products business, that we thought was lost to Chinas forever. They are now in the process of expanding to fill the demand for those products. That expansion will create 75 new jobs in an area that has lost most of the jobs we had 40 years ago. That area of Maine used to be a place where you could find all kinds of jobs 40 years ago. Today, people have a real hard time and we need every job that we can get. It’s the best news Piscataquis County had in a long, long time. Hardwood Products needs to buy quality white birch logs in a quantity that’s always been hard to find. This road will lower the transportation costs, so that company can reach out further to be able to get those logs; and without them, they can’t provide these jobs. So, we need to be able to secure those better jobs, and, ah, with that, I’ll thank you, try to answer any questions you have.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions on Senator Thomas?”
Senator Thomas : “You’re going to let me off easy?”
Senator Collins : “Senator, you have a question.”
Unidentified Senator : “Thank you Mr. Chairman. Good Afternoon. Ummm…we can get into this more latter but, (clears throat.) excuse me. It looks like with the resolve…”
Senator Thomas : “Yes.”
Unidentified Senator : “In the resolve, it appears that the $300,000 was the estimate in cost, if the General funding would pay for it. Is that still the cost?”
Senator Thomas: “As far as I know, that’s the cost.”
Unidentified Senator : “And so, Ummm…Do you have an (inaudible) with you, in the Department of Transportation, where that $300,000 is going to come from?”
Senator Thomas : “My understanding is, that it’s in the planning budget now. And, ah, we have a hundred million dollars in the highway projects of last year, to spend. And this will be a small 300,000 would be a small portion of that money that we saved last year, that we have for next year.”
Unidentified Senator : “Ah, the year to date, Ummm…or at least this last month, I think the highway fund was done a million dollars. Is that your understanding?”
Senator Thomas : “I haven’t looked recently.”
Unidentified Senator : “O.K.. Ummm…So, that’s one of the things I think we need to have cleared up real quick, in terms of where that money’s going to come from within the Department. Because in spite of a hundred million dollars, that we can’t use any of this. It’s still a budget that has belongings and money in it. So, we just need to be able to find out where this money is coming from.”
Senator Thomas : “Sure, I understand that.”
Senator Collins : “Any further questions for Senator Thomas? Representative Oberman, you have a question?”
Representative Oberman : “Thank you. Uh, Senator, would this be considered one of these projects, ah, ‘build it and they will come?’”
Senator Thomas : “That’s what the study is for, Representative Oberman. The study is to see if in fact there is a demand for it. It needs to be a bankable study. People aren’t going to invest a billion dollars, if they don’t think this is going to be successful.”
Representative Oberman : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Any further questions on Senator Thomas? Seeing none, thank you.”
Senator Thomas : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “When we proceed with this public hearing…”
Senator Roger Sherman
Senator Collins : “…With anything else. Is there anyone here to speak in favor of L.D. 1671? Senator.”
Senator Roger Sherman : “Ah, Senator Collins, Representative Cebra, Ah, I have a letter that I’m not going to read. I think, Representative Thomas kind of laid it out, ah, where we’re trying to go. But this is, I’ll read a couple of paragraphs out of this, and maybe a paragraph that indicates why we think this is important.”
Unidentified voice : “Can you introduce yourself?”
Senator Roger Sherman : “Senator Roger Sherman. The Senate District 34, Southern half Aroostook County.”
Unidentified voice : “There you go, We would have been a miss and not, ask you to introduce yourself.”
Senator Sherman : “Well maybe I wanted to be anonymous here.”
(Room breaks out in laughter.)
Senator Sherman : “You never know. Errr… I’m just going, on the second full paragraph on the first page. This is from the members of the Maine Canadian Legislative advisory commission. By right to date, support the L.D….Well it’s not L.D. anymore. I guess it’s resolve to provide funds for the study. And on the, on the, last page, second page, you, if you haven’t, of the Maine-Canadian Advisory Commission it used to an existence, and we started up again this year to talk with Quebec, or Quebec friends and our New Brunswick friends. Ahhh…I’ll read that to you: The Maine Canadian Legislative Advisory Commission consists of members of the Senate, the House of Representatives, along with members of the public interest of Maine-Canadian trade and relationship issues. Ah, we encourage and support, Ummm…resolve 1671 to provide funding to the Department of Transportation to conduct a feasibility study. Members there and myself, ah, along with Troy Jackson, ah, the chair is Representative Ken (Sounds like Cordet.) and, ah, Representative Jeff Gilfords out of the House. Ah, Danny (Sounds like Devough.) is a private member. There’s a couple of others, that ah, Errr…we didn’t list here. Ah, the paragraph I’d really like to focus on, and other folks I’m sure will indicate why this is important when I think, think this is important. Ah, and it’s the last on the front page, there’s a…the full paragraph. And this has to do with, ‘All things of the Panama Canal.’ Most Mainers do not know the Panama Canal will complete a renovation by, in 2014, that will double the amount goods that can pass through that region. This, ah, will increase shipping capacity up to the East Coast. The International Marine Terminal in Portland, has just began a $5 million dollar upgrade. When they created an area, where more containers could be moved off of ships. Ahhh…and located in a place where they can be successful to road…by road, for Maine companies. The Penobscot Bay region, along with the major ports in Halifax, are also poised to create an expanded capacity, and in return gain economic activity. The ‘East-West Highway,’ and transportation corridor, ah, will cre…we hope will create opportunities for trade from land and sea. The Canadian Maritimes are an important partner in, in…for Maine and trade, transportation, employment and tourism. Montreal Quebec, through the Maritimes, ah, where important…are important enough to build a road all the way around Maine. To have access, to that part of the country. Maine should also recognize the importance of this partnership, invest in the study on this, ah, project.
We’re going to meet the, the, the trade…we kind of resurrected our self. I think we’re going to, Ummm….set up to talk to our friends in Quebec, ah, and set up to do some cross-border stuff, with, with, New Brunswick. Ah, living on the Boarder. The…if you travel New Brunswick, as I do, up and down the Saint John River, rather pretty. That you go over, and see these high speed trains, doubling decking, hauling stuff out of Halifax, out of Saint John, right around the top of us. If you do the mileage around the top of us, ah, versus the mileage across Maine, you’re going save yourself several hours of, of, of travel time. It also, I think would give us, access to markets, Errr… East and West in the State of Maine. I know there’s ah…I don’t remember the name of the attorney. But an attorney from Bangor, whose been advocating an ‘East-West Highway,’ for years, thinking that you could have terminal points, ah, in Bangor, as a half-way point. I think it’s well worth taking a look at. Ah, as I agree with, ah, Representative, Errr… Senator Thomas. If, ah, if it’s worth, if, if it comes out, so it’s bankable if you use the term. Ah, I think it’s well worth doing. We…we’re in some ways the New Brunswick, P.E.I., Nova Scotia, ah, their population in New Brunswick is decreasing. They’re going out west. And in some ways, the state of Maine is in the way. My, my joke is: Webster Ashburn did a poor job at drawing the lines there. They really should have gone the Saint Lawrence River, or given us over to Maine…Errr….given us over to New Brunswick or Canadian at the time. We’re part of Nova Scotia, but that’s probably another history lesson you don’t need to hear about. So, thank you and ask any, answer any questions that I know the answer to. If I don’t, I’ll say, ‘I don’t know,’ and tell you latter. I see a hand up from a good Senator.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions of Senator Sherman from Hosh in? Representative Lime.”
Unidentified person : “Thank you Senator Collins, Ah, Senator Sherman.”
Senator Sherman : “What’s that?”
Unidentified person : “You had. You guys…you said there were names left off. Is that because they didn’t support it, or is that just…”
Senator Sherman : “Ah…I can talk to you privately about that.”
Unidentified person : “Was…has there been any votes, or talk about the…”
Senator Sherman : “Yes, yes. We voted to support this.”
Unidentified person : “So, but this is officially a letter of support from the a…”
Senator Sherman : “Yes. Exactly.”
Senator Collins : “Any additional questions for Senator Sherman? Seeing none. (Gavel comes down.) Thank you.”
Senator Sherman : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Is there any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671? Representative Turner Welcome.”
Representative Beth Turner
Representative Turner : “Thank you. Good afternoon, Senator Collins and Representative Cebra and distinguished members of joint standing committee on Transportation. I am State Representative Beth Turner and I have the honor of Representing 59 communities in, ah, parts of Washington County, Hancock County, and Penobscot County. Which, I would also say is the most beautiful part of the state of Maine. Ah, it is House District 11 and it is a privilege to appear before you today, to speak in support of L.D. 1671. As we look to continually improve Maine’s economic and jobs situation, it is important that we look at many different options, in all regions of the state. Rural Maine has been hit hard by the most recent Recession, and has lagged behind in economic development for years. Providing an effective means of transportation for travelers and goods in those parts of the state, that are more isolated, is one way to encourage this development. Discussion about putting an, ‘East-West Highway,’ in Maine has been happening for decades, and it is time we do something about it. The feasibility study this bill funds, is the first of its kind to be done: An independent investment grade study. The study will determine the need for an exact location for an ‘East-West Highway,’ following from the feasibility study the construction of an ‘East-West Highway,’ done right, would bring construction jobs, maintenance jobs, as well as easing the transport of goods, and the ability of trans…ah, tourists to visit these beautiful parts; but hard to reach areas of our state. With the construction of an, ‘East-West Highway,’ Maine could become a ‘North-East trade gateway,’ which would create jobs, expand the tax base and provide economic opportunity and vitality to Maine, the Maritimes and Quebec.
As envisioned this would be a privately owned and privately funded toll highway, using existing right of ways. The corridor could also accommodate utilities and communications. A concept study that has already been undertaken by a General Contractors Association, uses the Calais to Coleburn Gore route and shows the road linking to Sherbrook and then going onto Montréal. Should this become a reality, think of the expanded economic opportunities for the people of Maine. In particularly, the people of rural Maine, who so need this economic development and are often shunted aside, when economic matters are considered within the state. If this feasibility study had been done, and this highway had been built, when the conversation first emerged decades ago, imagine where the economy of rural Maine and the economy of the state as a whole would be right now. I encourage you ought to vote…ought to vote…ought to pass on L.D. 1671, to improve Maine’s economy and job situation. Thank you for the opportunity to speak in front of the committee today and I’d be happy to answer any questions you may have.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions for Representative Turner? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony.”
Representative Turner : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671? Yes.”
Jonathan Nass
Jonathan Nass : “Chairman Collins, Chairman Cebra, my name is Jonathan Nass, I’m senior policy advisor to Governor Paul LePage. Governor LePage asked me to come down here this morning and express his strong support, ah, for this resolve. First of all, I really need to thank Senator Thomas, Senator Sherman, Representative Turner, and others…other sponsors of this bill, of putting forward, what, what truly is a, ah, innovative and, ah, ah, pressing need for, for the state of Maine. Ah, what this resolve would, would, would propose to study, would be a new way of financing our highways. As you are all painfully aware, ah, dollars are tight, and transportation dollars are tight. And we need to be looking for, for new ways to finance, ah, our infrastructure. What this study would propse is indeed a new way to, to, to study, or, Errr… or a new way to build infrastructure in the state of Maine. It’s been elsewhere in the country. Ah, we think that this is a right project to, to try this, here in Maine and the Governor would welcome this bill coming to this desk, ah, and , and would sign it. I welcome any questions.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions for Jon Nass? Seeing none.”
Jonathan Nass : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Thank you. Any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671?”
Bruce Van Note
Bruce Van Note : “Thank you Chairman Collins, Chairman Cebra, members of the committee. My name is Bruce Van Note, I’m Bruce Van Note, I’m Deputy Commissioner of, ah, Maine Department of Transportation. Obviously the Administration, ah, supports this concept. I wanted to stand up and answer some technical questions. Some, ah…ah…that, ah…I anticipate and actually have heard since I’ve been here I’ll try to answer them. Ummm…at the go. Ummm…first, ah, the resolve which is in purple here. Ah, the reason, ah, for the resolve, Ummm…is that, that, the Department, Ummm…is able to re-allocate, ah, existing funds, to find this study, Ummm…through planning funding. Ummm…to answer your question, Senator Diamond, the, Ummm…Highway fund as of the end of January, I believe was up 1.5. December it was up one, Ummm…roughly. That’s not where this particular funding is coming from. There was some existing studies, ah, that you, ah, probably are aware of, if you read the papers. Ummm…we ah, pulled the plug on Wiscasset after 20 plus years of study. Ah, Skowhegan, Ummm…was ongoing study that didn’t garner, ah, local support, and those are the planning funds that are allowing this to be funded at this time. Ummm…we support it, ah, simply because I think it puts the cart before the horse, in the order. Ah, we spent, ah, well over 20 years down Wiscasset all kinds of people with maps, showing all kinds of alignments, all over the place. Scarring them, about ‘something maybe coming through my property,’ or just worrying about noise and those kinds of things. Only to conclude later that, it, it wasn’t fiscally viable. And the reason for that, this committee’s is all too well aware of.
The current funding model, where you do big transformational things like this, through largely Federal funding, is just not the model we’re operating under now. Ummm…we need new innovative ways, to do, ah, funding of transformational projects like this. Ah, this committee was at the forefront of that. I think just a session or two ago, ah, when it shepherd it through and, Ummm… eventually passed by the Legislature a Private – Public partnership, ah, concept. Which, Ummm…calls for projects, such as this, anything over 25 million, that once a proposal is made to do something like that, they will be coming back to you, to, get a determined, Ummm…whether it’s a good project for Maine. In the mean time, I’ve been given that’s there’s no realistic chance of, ah, the approximately, we don’t know exactly, that’s part of the study, but say, a Billion or two Billion dollars required to, build, ah, to build this. Ummm… It’s going to have, Ummm…It’s going to have to be a new way to ‘skin the cat.’ And this is a feasibility study, to find out whether that kind of financing is possible. Ummm…and again , I think we need new ways of going about it. So, it’s a financial feasibility study, that you’d have, before you start going through all the details. I’m anticipating ah, with good reason, that, that there be several people that want to jump to the final conclusion: ‘should we be putting a road from here to there and exactly there, and what does it cost and is that good for Maine?’ Ummm…I would submit that some of those questions are legitimate, but premature. That’s the purpose of this, ah, this study, ah, it’s to find out, Ummm…whether it is financially, ah, feasible. Another question I could anticipate would be someone saying, ‘Well, just increase rail, and you don’t need a road.’ You know, ‘Mobile choice,’ is going to be part of the, ah, the study’s purpose. Ah, it’s a revenue study. You actually seek people who will use this and, Ummm…’mobile choice,’ is part of that. Obviously the rail companies are, ah, private entities and if they saw the opportunity right now, they’d be free to partner up and do it. Ah, this is just another way, ah, to, ah, determine whether that freight movement can occur. But, ah, just like other privately held transportation assets, it won’t be done in a vacuum. It will be done within the environment of a, ah, the existing rail system.
So, for all those reasons, ah, the Department supports this bill. We think it’s good to have a, a, a viable, Ummm…financial mechanisms, before you start, ah, talking, ah, Ummm…about details, of exactly where it goes. That’s what this gill does. Therefore we support it as a new way of doing business. I think we all know we have to look for new ways of doing business, to do transformational things in Maine. So, for all those reasons, ah, the Department and Obviously the Administration support the bill.”
Senator Collins : “Questions of Mr. Van Note? Representative Peoples”
Representative Peoples : “Thank you Mr. Chair, and to you Mr. Van Note. Has the State ever done anything like this before, this kind of study?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Not exactly like this. We’ve done lot’s of feasibility studies, but it was under a traditional model. Which is like, ‘O.K., we’re figure out where it goes, how much it’s going to cost, the environmental impacts, ah, Ummm…all those kinds of factors and then do a cost benefit based on, Errr…Federal funding.’”
Representative Peoples : “Basically, what, what you’re trying to accomplish to create a feasibility study that can be taken to Wall-Street, and sold as a viability business opportunity. Correct?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “That’s exactly right, and that…yes.”
Representative Peoples : “So, can…for work session, can you get…give us a little more, a little bit more detail about how exactly that would happen? Because it is the first time the states every done anything like this. Although we do have a…(Next word was cut off by someone clearing their throat over a microphone.)…my experience with the Turnpike.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Exactly, and, ah, it’s…it is, Ummm…the concept is simpler…similar, the implementation will be different. Ahmm…the concept there is, you know, it, it, it’s (Sounds like ‘Through-Port,’ that he said.)…and toll levels. How many people would use it? What’s the revenue stream? What bond would that support?”
Representative Peoples : “Just a follow up. Can you give us some kind of idea of how you would go about asking, ah, putting in an ‘R.P.’ or asking for ah, (Another clearing of the throat into a live microphone obscuring the next word.)…depending on how… who would do this feasibility study. It would not be us, ourselves, we assume.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Certainly not. This is a real speciality, and Ummm…”
Representative Peoples : “Yeah.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Ummm…We’ll be glad to.”
Representative Peoples : “Thank you.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “We’ll be glad to.”
Senator Collins : “Any further questions of Mr. Van Note? Rep…Senator Diamond.”
Senator Diamond : “Thank you very much Mr. Chair. Good afternoon Bruce. Bruce Van Note.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Thank you.”
Senator Diamond : “Ummm…Just, December was down 600,000 left for the year, that I’m familiar with and so that, just wanted to make that clear.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “O.K.. Thank you.”
Senator Diamond : “Ummm…The, the resolve asks for D.O.T., to conduct an independent, ah feasibility, and I’m interested in the word: ‘Independent.’ Ummm…and really I have three questions. That’s the first. How do you perceive with that definition, to be conducting this, or having this conducted , that’s feasible?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Well I think, ah, what you, what you want to make sure you’re doing is, you’re not, ah, doing a study, ah…where there would be, Ummm…kind of a (Sounds like cune-a-rily, but most likely it was cumulative.) in the results of the study. Let’s say for example, Ummm…you were a trucking company, you’re, you, you had a very specific business that would benefitted by this. Or, Ummm….a construction company or something like that. And if you went out and did the study, ah, and paid for it, the question would be; ‘Well can you rely on those results, or were that kind of driven to come to a result that, would, would support it?’ And that’s one of the reasons I think that the Department is the right place to be doing this. Because we’re under your oversight. We work for the public interest. And we go out to R.F.P. and we have someone, ah, propose, just, just as, ah, Representative Peoples, Ummm…surmised and, ah, give us all the work. Say what it is. Make sure the public interest is identified. Those kinds of things. So, that’s why I think they’re independent. It’s independent of a, ah, particularly a ( Again, sounds like cune-a-rily, but most likely it was cumulative.) interest in the optimum study.”
Senator Diamond : “O.K.. Ah, thank you. And, ah, because I suspect like anything of this size, it will be controversy going on both sides of the issue and, and how well it is perceived to be independent, will be very important.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “I agree.”
Senator Diamond : “Ah, secondly, $300,000 that doesn’t strike me…Is, Is that, does that strike you as being an unreasonable amount of money, Ahmm…for a cost for a study of this size? If you are truly independent, you’re not written on other resources. Is that, that an unreasonable amount of money?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Well, if you’re starting on square one, and had no existing data, about the ‘East-West Highway,’ ah, various studies for the last 15 years have been conducted, and it, and…so a lot of it is reviewing and updating, Ummm…existing data, that had been done, ah, through the Department. So, if it was from square one, and brand new and ah, ah, not anything that, ah, had been looked at in general…and what, what, I’m talking about is the kind of traff…ah, traffic study, the, the ‘origin and destination,’ types studies, some of that has already been done. So, Ummm…the. The short answer to your is, ah, we’ve never done one exactly like this before. Ahhh…300,000 is our working estimate. We have not gone out to R.F.D. and received bids yet. We’ll find out then.”
Senator Diamond : “So do you have the flexibility, do you feel that, even a R.F.P., that they are all, significantly over 300,000 or …Do you…do you have the flexibility, do you feel to, ah, be able to fund this, or even bank it?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Yes. I’m, I’m…”
Senator Diamond : “You’re being, granted, you’re asking for $300,000, is what I’m guessing my point is.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Well, actually, the resolve tell us that, (clears throat.) do the study.”
Senator Diamond : “Right.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : And Ummm…Ummm…that would be something just like, ah, every project that we do. We have so much money budgeted for it. And when the bids come in, you know, 20, 30, 50 percent over in some cases, we have to make a decision whether to proceed with that. We allocated other resources and we that all the time. This particular study, so yes, I believe we have the flexibility to do that. Although, if it comes in, you know, significantly different than 300,000, ah, historically we’ve shown the, ah, ah…the institutional respect, if you will. To let everyone know, and, and, decide whether that should be a course worth proceeding.”
Senator Diamond : “Would that be a decision, you would make at the Departments?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “We would have that authority to do it; but how we exercise that authority, would be, ah,…” ( Note to readers: he said the last word too fast to understand.)
Senator Diamond : “Thank you. And the last question is : Ummm…could a study of this nature, not withstanding that some previous work has been done, but, the study of this nature, and this size, and this course, could this be done by January of next year? I mean, we’re talking about, ah, less than a full year.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Yes, we know. We, Ummm…yes, is the short answer to your question. Ah, again, this isn’t a study to determine exactly where on the face of the Earth, we can get every permit and determine every environmental impact. It’s a study to determine whether the basic traffic demand is there, and, ah, tolling and traffic is a, a, sufficient revenue stream to support the level of funding necessary to build an ‘East-West Highway.’ Not a particular, ‘East-West Highway.’ Those concerns are vey legitimate, come later in the process.”
Senator Diamond : “But what…would it include, that study, an environmental impact, generally speaking?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “It would have broad perimeters, but it wouldn’t be the kind specific permitting that, Ummm…ah, that a regulatory agencies, or stake, or various stake holders would expect. You know, detailed, down to the acre kind of thing. It’s not, that kind of study.”
Senator Diamond : “So, some of that, then we really need to be watching is, is $300,000 and up or is it significantly more than that, Ummm…and also, just keep, just keep a handle on the date piece. I’m wondering if you want to leave that end date open. As opposed to saying: reporting to January, January 15th ’13. Ummm…why not give yourself a little time and report to the next Legislature, to make it a little bit later than that?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Well, when I Ummm…I, I was actually consulted as to that particular date and perhaps the, ah, the, ah, production orientated, ah, engineer part of me said, ah: ‘You got to have a deadline in order to get something done.’ Ummm…ah, I’d be more than willing to work with the committee on what that end date should be in work session.”
Senator Diamond : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “I think Representative Curry wanted the next one.”
Representative Curry : “Thank you Mr. Chair. Welcome Deputy Commissar.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Thank you.”
Representative Curry : “My question has to do with…just the top of your head here, so how many, how many of these feasibility studies that we, that’s, that, that’s been conducted lately, that have, Ummm…been in the positive nature; but nothing gets materialized?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Ummm…Again, I don’t have set numbers. ‘Not many,’ is the answer to your question. Ahhh…ah, we haven’t done one of this nature before. This is a new way of getting work done with, ah, private financing, with privately owned and operated road. It’s an entirely new kind of system, that was kind of fore-told by the (Note to readers: he may have said R.F.P., P.P.T., P.B.T., P.T.T. of something similar. Since R.F.D. has been used, it might have be the last example.) statue that the committee and the Legislature, Ummm…ah, passed a couple of sessions ago. In general through without a big transformational studies, bypasses, you know, new, new corridors. Ummm…those largely have not been success of late, for two very simple reasons. Ah, one, ah, the people, ah, don’t want them in their back yard, for obvious reasons; and two cost. And, Ummm…this particular one, is again, focusing on the financial pieces. It’s really financial feasibility study, as opposed to a pacific, on the ground, where exactly it goes.”
Senator Collins : “Representative Madden, something. (Note to readers: Words following was said way to fast to comprehend.)
Representative Madden : “Thank you Mr. Chairman. Ah, Deputy Commissar Van Note, this study that you’re talking about, this feasibility study. Would it just include highway transportation, or does it…would it include all methods of transportation to find which would be the best method to get goods and services East and West?”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “I would be, ah, it, it’s focused on the highway, there’s no question. But one of the things, ah, that you have to do, when you ask shippers…when you’re talking to businesses, is, you have to talk about, ‘Mobile choice.’ I mean, they, ah, shippers are very pragmatic people. I mean, they want get from ‘point A to point B,’ for the least cost per ton. And, ah, if there’s a viable option to that, they will tell you. And so, yes, they, Errr…the rail discussion will be inherent in discussing, ah, the traffic demand modeling.”
Senator Collins : “Representative Wheeler, you have a question.”
Representative Wheeler : “Yeah, Thank you, ah, Senator Collins. Ah, Mr. Van Note, ah, considering that, we border two Providences…Canadian Providences, ah, can we expect any kind of financial aid from these Canadian Providences, for this, ah, feasibility study? What’s…where is that headed? Are we going to be talking with the Canadians? How much they’re going to be using this, this, this road? I’d, I would assume they are probably to be using it a lot so.”
Deputy Commissar Van Note : “Ah…that…that, (Pause.) The short answer is, that’s kinda above pay grade. Errr….”(Chuckles break out in room.) “…You know, talking to the Canadian Governments. Ummm…e haven’t done that. Ah, given that the, ah, estimate of the study, ah, is that we could relative…relatively modest sounds like it could be done, by re-allocating existing resources. It was something we wanted to move forward on, ah, I, I think it’s…imagine if we’ve had a kind of a financial liability ‘gut-check,’ earlier on some of these other studies, and we just turned: you know what? We’re not going to have the money and we could have put a whole bunch of people. Errr…not put them through a whole bunch of (Note to readers: Last word in sentence was hard to make out.) Ummm…so for that reason, we were very supportive of it. If and when…if the study were to balloon in cost…And I have no indication that it’s going to at all; but I think that would be a valuable conversation to have at that point.”
Senator Collins : “Any additional questions of Deputy Commissar Bruce Van Note? Seeing none. Thank you for your questions.”
Deputy Commissar Bruce Van Note : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Do you have a question?”
Representative Cebra : “No.” (Note to readers: A few mumbled words here from two different people. Their microphones may have been covered up by their hands.)
Senator Collins : “O.K., go ahead.”
Representative Cebra : “Thank you since we’ve heard from, Errr…Sponsors and Co-sponsors, and the administration and no members of the public het…I’d like to take this opportunity to, to read the official announcement that I need to read…” (Note to readers: Remainder of sentence was said too soft and fast to understand.)
Senator Collins : “Alright.”
Representative Cebra : “This is a notice. All persons testifying at this public hearing today, are advised that his hearing is being broadcasted throughout the building and on the internet; And maybe heard or recorded by persons listening online.
In addition, written testimony provided at the public hearing, will be distributed to each member of the committee and beginning February 6th, will be posted on the Legislatures website for viewing by all interested persons. Persons testifying should be mindful that their testimony is public, and will be made available to all interested members of the public, once it is presented. Thank you Mr. Chair.”
Jennifer Mills
Senator Collins : “Alright! Any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671? Could you announce your name please; for the audience as well as the audio?”
Jennifer : “Jennifer Mills. (Long pause.) Good Afternoon Transportation Committee. As I’ve said, my name is Jennifer Mills. My husband and I own Historic Pittston Farm. Formally known as Pittston Farm and locally in Maine we are Maine natives, retired from one profession already; In Maine and now working on another chapter. Our year round recreational business is what we own. And it consists of a restaurant, a hotel, small (time or town,) units, cabins, a campground and truly unique outpost facility 20 miles above Rockwood Maine. We are listed on the National Historic Registrar, and are a certified green facility. Our access is the Northern road from Rockwood. Which is a 20 mile dirt road heading north, connecting to Route 6 and route 15 heading East and West. We own 44 acres on West end of Seboomook Lake. Which is a quarter mile above the North end of Moosehead lake. And the 44 acres is encompassed by 44,000 acres owned by the citizens of Maine and managed by the Bureau of Parks and Lands. Called the ‘Seboomook Unit.’ Beyond that is 200,092 acres of conservative easement. Which is used for recreation year round, called the ‘West Land Achievement.’ (Note to readers: or something that sounds like ‘the West Grant Achievement.’) A total of 336,044 acres of recreational, forested wilderness available for everyone, to enjoy. Now the northern road access, services the majority of the users of this land. About 4,000 small land owners and 27 large ones. Plus thousands of recreationists every day. However, it is still very, very much, (Next word was blocked out by Doug Papa checking tape in recorder nearing its end.) The problem? The problem is attracting people to this part of our state. Because of the misconception, of no services available. And nothing but wilderness. When in fact…
(End of tape. Here is the start of the next one:)
…and any activity there. And they include year round, winter time : snowmobiling, ice fishing, natural, natural cross country skiing, snow shoeing, hiking, etc.. In the springtime, Brook trout fish, at the South and North branches of the Penobscot River, camping, R.V. lots, Lake fishing at Moosehead, moose and other new born wildlife there. They do it all, by any chance, that we have more moose than people. Moose out number us 3 to 1. Is that not correct Senator?”
Unidentified Senator : “It sure is.” (Chuckles heard from the committee’s side of the room.)
Jennifer : “We also are right in the middle of the ‘Eastern fly-way.’ Now you can talk to Bob Duchesne about that. He has ‘the birding trail.’ He does retreats out of Pittston Farm. It’s a beautiful part of our state. And people come from all over the world. Nationally/ internationally. Summertime, canoeing and Kayaking, and swimming and camping and white water rafting, picnicking, moose and wildlife outdoors, campfirers and A.T.V.’n. We are the Northernmost destination is Somerset County, 50 miles of trail. For our A.T.V. trails. And in the Fall, beautiful Fall foliage. Sugarshackers to see Fall fishing, photography, hunting of all types. The proposed, ‘East-West Highway,’ has been talked about since, I can remember, and I was a little girl, and I’m no longer a little girl and young anymore. It’s been around a long time. It…we need it, in this state. We need it desperately. It would assist in increasing our known presence here at Historic Pittston Farm. The business that we own and it’s financial stability, as well as, all of the other businesses in the area. With appropriately assigned routes, tourism orientated messages, explaining the area, and educating drivers on this highway about the largest area, in the United States East of the Mississippi. The history of our business alone goes back 4,000 years, when the Native Americans traded in the Summer there at the, (Note to readers: couldn’t even make out first word because it was said way too fast.) at the two rivers. And secondly, the logging history, is the cornerstone in our area, and of our state I might say. We have a 501-c-3 museum at Pittston Farm, celebrating the logging history, and the Native American history. Little, little, people know about that. The travelers in and outside our state, and country should be aware of our incredible history of their ancestors. There isn’t a week, that goes by, that someone asks me about the history. They tell me about relatives that worked here for Great Northern Paper. Who owned this vast wilderness; for 73 years and owned our facility. One of five, and the only one left, and was so proud and honored to own. The transformation however, taken place here. From logging company operations to tourism, year-round, to a certified green facility, with a hybrid renewable energy system, and 21st century technology; is truly amazing. Every business in the upper portions, of Somerset and Piscataquis County, truly need some visibility assistance.
I have worked, and am a member of our Moosehead area Chamber of Commerce, being a board of Director there for 5 years. I traveled to Eastern States exposition, in Massachusetts in Springfield; and I’ve had the pleasure of advertising our area. One question I always ask, of people stopping by that booth, is this: ‘Have you ever traveled to Maine?’ The response I get, 99% of the time is this: ‘Yes. I’ve been to the coast.’ They are not in most cases, aware the is such a vast area of the natural tourism in our central part of the state. When I give them a follow up question, like ‘Have you ever thought about traveling into the Moosehead Lake area and visiting the three important sites? -Baxter State Park, Moosehead Lake, The Great North Woods?’ They look at me real strange. Real strange. And they ask, ‘Oh that’s so far away and there’s no easy way to get there. There’s no easy highway system. You got to go North, and…they…then East, and then West; and the roads are terrible. Nothing but dirt and Moose in the area.’ That is the response I get; And I have talked to over a thousand people, directly, at just that one show. Multiply that , times at least 4 to 5 shows a year, from New York to Massachusetts and here in this state; and I get the same response, ladies and gentlemen.
This proposed ‘East-West Highway,’ would be an excellent, ‘shot in the arm,’ to end our lack of tourism business. There’s a very big division here, ladies and gentlemen; between Southern Maine and Northern Maine. In my former career as a law enforcement officer, I traveled the entire state. I worked down South most of the time; and I can tell you first hand, it’s nothing like where I live at the… (Note to readers: place was said with no spacing between words to comprehend.) We lived there 6 years. People are, (Note to readers: speaker said word so fast, there is difficulty telling if she said, ’suffering,’ or ‘separate.’) the businesses are struggling all over the place like we are ourselves. Just to take care of business and stay alive. The energy costs, distance from a major highway systems, and lack of awareness of our natural resources and history; all add up to a very much, depressed environment. And people…businesses are dropping off one, by one, by one. And if the things don’t change, this business of ours will be one of them.
I ask this Committee, to pass this bill of a feasibility study, or resolve and explore this much needed ‘East-West Highway.’ And attempts to truly, make us feel, Historic Pittston Farm, and guests there, that we are actually part of the State of Maine; and not just in the middle of ‘no- where.’ If properly promoted, the tourism possibilities are endless; and will result in bringing much needed income for our state and our struggling businesses. I thank you very much for your time. I’ll answer any questions if you have any.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions of Ms. Mills? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony. Any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671? Please announce your name please.”
(Note to readers: End of this tape.)
Partial Peter Vigue presentation to the Department of Transportation Committee.
Senator Collins : “Is there any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671? Please state your name please.”
Peter Vigue : “My name is Peter Vigue. Thank you Senator Collins, Representative Cebra, who ah just left the room and to the respective committee members.
(Note to readers: I gave Mr. Vigue a note apologizing for not catching pages 1-4 of his power point presentation. In a hand written note, I explained how I mistakenly thought his hand out to the committee members had his entire power point presentation. I told him where he could view the Occupy Augusta Interviews online for free. I asked if he could send me an e-mail on pages 1-4 of his power point presentation I missed. After his assistant used a hand held device to go online, Mr. Vigue shook his head indicating I probably would not get an e-mail. Hence, I will start to the part I started to record the rest of his public comment. I also caught a quick smile from his assistant and a look of concern from Mr. Vigue. His assistant must have looked at ArchEnemys homepage, or saw how my website Big time Music Trade .com looked or another reason for this body language interaction I witnessed.)
Peter Vigue : “Look at the map. All of the highways, whether they are located in Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont and even New York are North-South highways. They’re North-South. And again, those same states, have the same economic challenges, and in many cases that we do in the state of Maine. I ask you to simply look, from Sherbrook Quebec, more than 61 miles from our boarder. Look at that and look at the highway that exists from Sherbrook to Montreal and all the way down to Toronto and Chicago, Detroit area. And look at the mileage that’s required that the businesses and companies and multiple businesses and companies in the state of Maine, have to follow today. They come down Interstate 95 into Massachusetts and they go West to Albany and across and then all the way to Chicago, Detroit. One might ask: ‘Well, how many Maine businesses go to Chicago, Detroit?’ And I can tell you, now if you go as far North, as Aroostook County, and you talk to Robert Humphrey, whose the president of Maine Packaging, and recognizing that 30% of his business is in the Chicago, Detroit area. He sends and ships out bags now, 4 to 5 truck loads every week. Look at the added expense associated with his ability to do that. We’re not talking hours of difference here. In some cases, days of difference. Because of the log-book requirement of ten hours. It is a very, very significant cost for that company. Lincoln Pulp and Tissue, ships the far majority of everything they manufacture to Appleton Wisconsin. Look at what they have to endure, for transportation expense having to go South on 95 all the way across and back up. And so, it is about connectivity and those issues. And it’s also about future investments and how we can move companies here that will create jobs and employ the people of this state going forward. It is a significant challenge and it’s very complicated. If you study any of the challenges and concerns that the people have about our state, it has everything to do with cost. Cost of operation and transportation is one of those significant costs, to the business of the state and to people who want to export and even import from other parts of the country. So the concept, is linking what we call ‘trade gate-ways.’ In that blue line, from Calais over to Sherbrook, it’s actually Coleburn Gore on our boarder. And so essentually what it does, is to provides economic opportunity and vitality to Maine, the Maritimes and Quebec. It develops a long term transportation and Utility and Communications corridor. And I want to stop right there for a moment.
If you look at all of the maps of this state, that identifies all of the transportation routes. If you look at this state and look at all of the utility routers, whether it’s the gas, electricity, communication. In many cases a majority of them, going back to the 1930’s, those companies that developed those needs, did it independently of one another. And so, it created havoc with our landscape. Whether it’s electrical transmission, road-way systems, and it was very limited collaboration. If we fast forward 50 or 100 years from now, (Long Pause.) what would it take to get a right of way for utilities and for the future of this state? And if at the end of the day, when I speak to these right issues, and the effect that they have on the environment, and the effect that they have on the rate payer. Ask yourself, ‘Whose going to pay for this?’ It’s the future generations that come after us that will pay for this. Isn’t it important, that we, in our generation plan for the future? Well into the future? So that these issues will not have to be encountered over and over again, going forward. Isn’t it encumbered by us, to identify solutions for the future? So that we provide access for these purposes? Instead of having them be developed independently.
And so, when we peak of economic strategy for the state, part of that requires connectivity for every single one of these activities. And so what we’re suggesting here is that: Maine has every potential to become the North East Trade gateway. And so, why is this corridor important to Maine? Well, first of all, it improves connectivity. To the Central U.S., Canada, the Maritimes, Europe and Asia. Our connectivity. It fills Maine’s ‘Hollow Middle.’ East, West and North. And let me take a moment to explain what, ‘Hollow Middle,’ is. If you look at what’s happened over the last 20 years in the State, because of the economic situation that we are faced with now. We’ve had tremendous amounts of migration to southern Maine. And in some cases, outside of Maine. And as a result of that, that has put a huge impact on the demand for infrastructure in the southern half of the state. Roads, sewer, water, schools, all of it. If you look at the Northern half of the state and look at the communities, where all of that infrastructure exists. Brownville, Milo, Washin…areas of Washington County. The schools are there. The infrastructure in there. But I can promise you one thing, that, that infrastructure is underutilized today.
So ask yourself, looking forward, how long will it be, if we don’t get a hold of this? If we don’t develop a strategy? Will it be before the southern half of the state has to support the Northern half? Ask the people that have migrated out of these communities, ‘where they would prefer to work and live?’ And they will tell you simply. And so, what is our economic strategy? How do we lessen the desire for people to be on Social programs? And I would suggest we put ‘em back to work. And this is part of a long term economic strategy for this state.
It will attract additional investment, reduce travel time, improve utility transmission and communications and it will re-vitalize Maine’s ports and rail systems. And create long term jobs and will expand our tax base. This highway, that we’re proposing, is taxable. And if we’re to deal with all these challenges, that you folks have today; in your everyday jobs of all the committees that you serve on, it is a lack of revenue and income. How do we expand it?
The corridor is 230 miles long. It avoids communities, but is connected to communities. It will be connected to communities, so they have access to this highway system. It utilizes existing rights of way, Stud Mill road, Shirley Mills road, Enchanted road. These are private roadway systems. Our focus is to limit the amount of impact that we have on our Environment in this state. It’s not to cut a ‘swath,’ through the center of this state that hasn’t…in courses that haven’t been charted before. It will be privately owned, and developed. Utilizing Canadian weight limits, Tandem trailers, and again it improves the connectivity to rural areas. Just do the math on the carbon footprint. When you start to a let…eliminate the trucking. When you have one truck towing two trailers. The effect it has on cost and the impact it has on the Environment going forward. I’m more than happy to answer any questions that…”
Senator Collins : “Any questions on Mr. Vigue on…”
Unidentified Voice : “Thank you Mr. Chairman. You too Mr. Vigue. You mentioned revitalizing the rails and ports. Can you expand on that a little bit on how that’s going to work? Particularly the rail piece.”
Peter Vigue : “The rail piece in my opinion, is a gem. That’s way too costly inefficient and not well managed. If this state moves forward, we will need our rail systems and our highway systems. Depending on what the demand is, in terms of immediate transport and long term transport. Ummm…tourism is a major part of our industry. It’s a primary industry her in the state of Maine. It’s very doubtful that the rail service will satisfy that need. Just imagine someone coming down, Route 201 from the Providence of Quebec, or Canada that wants to access Bar harbor, Mt. Katahdin, Baxter State park, any of those areas, look at what it takes. Look at what it takes for people who are in Western Maine, the Western Part of Maine, and what it takes from them to get to the air port in Bangor if that’s where they want to go. All the way down Route 201, All the way across and then back yup to Bangor and on Interstate 95. This road has the promise. If someone in Caratunk, or ‘The Forks,’ wants to come to Bangor, they can get there in half the time. The same thing holds true for the people in Dover-Foxcroft and area’s like that. It is about connectivity. It is about improving the environment and in terms our economy and it helps us to be robust. And give people the courage to invest and live here. Does that answer your question?”
Unidentified voice : “Well, just to follow up. I was particularly curious about how this is going to increase, Ummm…and revitalize rail. I mean our rail obviously is not going to do something we are going to use for tourism in all likelihood. But when you’re talking about moving very, very heavy loads of commodities from one point to another, there is a rail that already exists. Cutting across where you are talking about. And I’m just curious as to where… how you see them fitting in.”
Peter Vigue : “Well I believe, I believe in time as the service improves, as the demand for transportation improves, that we will need both the rail and the truck. I’m very confident of that.”
Senator Collins : “Representative Perry, You have a question.”
Representative Perry : “Thank you Mr. Chair. Ah, Mr. Vigue you mentioned about the new big container ships. Are they going to be able to get all the way up to Calais for where this road would start?”
Peter Vigue : “The, the, the issue isn’t just the water depth, or the size of the pier. The real issue is, is a trans-shipment port. And that’s why they’re so focused on, ah, the area, ah, at Melford Nova Scotia. You see, that site, was used, ah, during World War II. It’s owned by the Canadian Government. It’s about…between 1,5000 and 2,000 acre. So it’s not just the unloading and loading of containers. It’s breaking down those loads into these large warehouses. Where a lot of this material is handed or re-handed and directed either into the ‘Heart-Land,’ or down our coast, with mixed, ah, containers. And so, they need a lot of space and a lot of activity. To be able to unload quickly, spread the material out and then also to store. Again remember the capacity, 20,000 (Note to readers: Peter Vigue did say twenty thousand this time.) to store outgoing containers as well. That space does not exist in Halifax, and it doesn’t exist necessary in Eastport or Searsport. Which will be, ah, ‘feeders,’ to the chan…ummm…trans-shipment facility in Melford or Sidney.”
Rep. Perry : “So they will fit. You can pretty much…”
Peter Vigue : “Absolutely, Yup.”
Senator Collins : “Representative Mensbrook, I think you’re next.”
Rep. Mensbrook : “Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Vigue, you mentioned that, ah, there is no deep water ports along the East Coast. I thought Sears Island had an 80 foot…tide.”
Peter Vigue : “No. It’s 35 feet.”
Rep. Mensbrook: “35?”
Peter Vigue : “35 feet.”
Rep. Mensbrook : “O.K.. Thank you. I…’cuz, somewhere along the line, 80…numbers.”
Peter Vigue : “The deepest hole in Penobscot Bay, in any proximity, to, ah, Searsport, and it’s miles out. Not, not, not, a lot of miles, but like 3 miles or more, there’s a, a 70 foot deep hole, that’s it. The rest of it is 35 feet all the way into Searsport.”
Rep. Mensbrook: “The reason I mentioned that, as…so you would know that, a couple of years ago they were talking about trying to develop Searsport Island, into a deep water port. And they kept throwing out the number ’80 foot.’ And it was a mile from the railroad connection and, you know, they kept speaking that. And now all of a sudden, I find it’s only 35 feet…so what’s the average?”
Peter Vigue : “25 feet. 35 foot to the pier, and it’s…”
Rep. Mensbrook : “Right. Good.”
Senator Collins : “Representative Re’al, you have a question.”
Rep. Re’al : “yeah. Thank you Senator Collins. Ummm…Thank you Mr. Vigue for your presentation. Ummm…I have a question. You talk about, ah, avoiding communities that this proposed road will go through. But, also offering accessibility. Can you elaborate on that? What is your vision? Are you going to have one or two interchanges? We know interchanges are going to cost a lot of money, or, are you going to be make it accessible to a lot of communities?”
Peter Vigue : “Well, the routing…the routing does not, ah, interfere with a lot of communities. Ah, I think it’s, it’s ah, important to know that, that first of all, Ummm…Let’s take Dover-Foxcroft. And understand the routing that we’re looking at. Again, many private roads, and, and rights of way that have already been interrupted. Like, we’re not gonna…we’re not going to knock down the North Maine woods. That’s not the intent. However, there’s a key desire and interest on part of a community. I’ll use ‘Dover,’ to have access to that road. And it would be our intent, to install access egrets, for that highway system, so that they can access the highway.”
Rep. Real: “Do you have a vision on how many towns that you would accommodate in that respect, or if you’re in Milo, are you going to have to drive to Dover?”
Peter Vigue : “The, the, the, you, you, you know, you can’t run it up, right, and but, again it wouldn’t go to Milo. It will go to ‘Dover.’ And access people in Brownville and, and Milo and most communities have a relatively short distance to drive to the highway.”
Rep. Real : “MM-Hun. Right.”
Peter Vigue : “So this is a East-West Route system. Right?”
Rep. Real : “MM-Hun.”
Peter Vigue : “And, and it also, ah, crosses route 201, North of Caratunk. Well North at ‘The Forks.’ And again, Ummm…people in that community will have access to this. As well, Ummm…people coming down or going up on Route 201 will have access to this, as well.”
Rep. Real : “Alright.” (Note to readers inaudible comment followed.)
Peter Vigue : “And again, please understand that we live here. I’m not from away. I’m super sensitive to this state and its people and the communities that we live in. And, we will have strong interaction with community. Understands their needs, their concerns, and we will build it into our plan.”
Senator Collins : “Representative Gilman, you have a question.”
Rep. Gilman : “Thank you Chair. Ummm…this is probably one of the ‘no brainer,’ questions, but I’ll ask it anyway. Ummm….Why a toll highway?”
Peter Vigue : “I think it’s been stated a little earlier that number one, that the initial proposed routing, that has been studied now since the 1960’s, and a most recent study, that was completed about three years ago or less. Indicated in a routing through Bangor, down off Skowhegan, that way, would cost in access, between $12 and $15 Billion dollars, and take 25 years to complete. When you look at the funding, that’s provided by the Federal Government right now, we know it’s sustainably less than it’s been in the past, and that is expectantly continued for quite some time. And so, the model for delivering this, is to get the people who use the highway to pay for it. And, and , and that’s essentially the concept. And we believe that there’s enough traffic and activity, and demand for that highway to in fact pay for the highway. And please understand, we don’t build roads at Cianbro. That’s not what we do. And we will not own this highway. Investors will own the highway and I’m very confident that there’s significant interest in doing that.”
Rep. Gilbson : “Thank you, yes sir.”
Senator Collins : “Senator Diamond you have a question.”
Sen. Diamond : “Thank you, ah, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon Mr. Vigue, Welcome. Ummm…You’ve been at this a long time, this, this issue and I’ve heard you speak about it for years, and years and years, Ummm…and well above it. In your line of what all we’ve done, what is, what you consider to be the biggest challenge. Ummm…to getting this job done?”
Peter Vigue : “To get the people of this state to believe in themselves and their ability to compete. And that we can do these things if we want and turn this state around economically. That’s the biggest challenge I have, I , I believe, and again, Ummm…there are kinds of stakeholders groups involved, Ummm…in this state. We all live here, we all co-exist, and we all have different needs. And, and as a result of that, it’s wining the hearts and minds of people. And getting them, to understand the benefit that this can have, in revitalizing this state’s economy, and getting us moving in the right direction. That’s the biggest hurdle.”
Sen. Diamond : “Are you confident that $300,000 is going to be a sufficient amount of money to do this feasibility study and in its time frame, logic, ummm…realistic?”
Peter Vigue : “I believe it is, because there’s a lot of data that has been created in recent years, umm…that could be utilized, to ummm…help this study along and provide information that would have to go out and, and , and , ah, be developed ah, if it wasn’t there. That would cost, ah, ah, monies and time. Recognize that our friends to the East in New Brunswick, have twined their highway to Calais Maine. That was a commitment that Premier Ram (or Rand.) made some years ago. And the data that they collected, in terms of the traffic count coming into the state of Maine, or going…leaving the state of Maine, at Holton, at Calais and the traffic count going up over the top of Maine, is very significant amount of activity. They have all the data, all of the information, and I know that, that, ah, Deputy Commissioner Van Note is very well aware of that and on top of that. And they interact to our neighbors to the East and also to the West. As does, the folks in the Providence of Quebec as well. There’s a significant amount of economic activity that by-passes us, frequently. It drives their cost up. It drives our cost up. And why is this transportation so important? It’s because, ‘who pays for it?’The people who pay for it, are the people that buy the goods and the services. And, and how do we reduce our cost? And how do we improve our connectivity? And, and so the data, the information is out there is very, significant and needs to be ‘tabbed,’ and these studies updated. And, and, and so I think that, that is reasonable, it’s fair. The last study I believe that was done, three years ago, ah, funded thanks to the leadership of Senator Collins, I believe, ah, and I’m sure that you folks are aware of it, was called, the ‘Can-Am study.’ Cost about, in excess of a million dollars. There’s a lot of information data, ah, relating to all of the needs of this study. The only exception was the routing. The routing is what I originally described. This routing is different. So, it needs to define the cost of this routing, as, well as, ‘Is it reasonable and will it be used by a number of the stakeholders and businesses in Maine and outside of Maine?”
Senator Collins : “Any additional questions for Mr. Vigue? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony.”
Peter Vigue : “Thank you.”
John Melrose
Senator Collins : “Is there any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671? Please step forward and announce your name please.”
John : “Senator Collins, Representative Cebra and members of the Transportation Committee, my name is John Melrose. I’m speaking on behalf of the Maine Better Transportation Association. In support of L.D. 1671. I’ll be brief. Ahmmm…we believe that the, ah, resolve as its evolved here and what’s in front of you, answers, ah, or goes at, if you will tow questions, that have been a constant in the discussion about an ‘East-West Highway.’ Ah, the first is: ‘Is it needed in the marketplace of transportation alternatives?’ And the second is: ‘How can it be affordable?’ Ah, we’ve had a good discussion here today, about the ‘bigger idea,’ if you will; but the resolve, ah, ah, is really focused on those two issues. And those two issues had been a stumbling point, in a conversation that’s gone back to the 1960’s. Ah, so we think that this is a god investment to make, to answer those two questions. Ah, we also think, ah, that the idea, that’s been presented here, ah, takes advantage of assets that we already have. Ah, and puts them to better advantage to support the Maine economy. And I would just close, with, ah, and I suspect it would be true, with pretty much everyone in this room, is that, ah…our gaze, ah, in terms of where our economy comes from and where it’s fixed, has been singularity set on the Boston-New York, ah…economy if you will. Ah, there has been very little, of our effort that has gazed off the Halifax. That’s gazed off to Montréal, Toronto and it is time that we do that. Ah, it is, ah, very odd circumstance of our economy, and how we have set ourselves up, that we’ve almost closed our self off to all of those other opportunities, and we only look South. Ah, And with this, we see a prospect of looking at other directions of that would be very beneficial to us. Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions of Mr. Melrose? Seeing none, thank you. Any additional testimony in favor or L.D. 1671? Please announce your name.”
John Williams
John : “Senator Collins, ah, Representative Cebra, I’m John Williams; I’m the President of Maine Pulp and Paper Association, members of the Committee. I’m here to speak in favor of this L.D. 1671. Ah, our Association represents the pulp and paper mills, operating in the State of Maine. These mills provide over 7,000 jobs directly in the mills; and probably 30-40 thousand jobs indirectly across the state. One of our issues has been transportation. Getting our product to the markets that we sell to. It should be an advantage; because we’re in the North Eastern part of the country and a lot of our markets are in the North East. But, many of them, and ah, Peter Vigue mentioned this, are also in the Mid-West. Ah, Lincoln Pulp and Tissue, sells much of their product to the Mid-West. Many of our mills make coated paper that goes into magazines; and many of the magazine producers are in the Mid-Western states. If they could get access to a highway like this, ah, with proposed, and ah, not only reduce their transportation costs, but, but, ah…likely, also reduce the amount of time it takes to get the material there; that would be a great advantage for our, errr…for our mills. It also would be an advantage for getting wood in. It may surprise you, with as much wood as we have, but, Maine is a net importer of wood. We, ah, we bring wood in from our neighboring states and bring a lot of it in from Canada. So, for many , of our mills to be able to use this, ah, highway, and get logs into their mills, would ultimately become, or made into pulp and then paper; would also be a great advantage. For sa…ah, this really just being in support of a feasibility study, to see if this would work. But, Ummm…we would urge you to pass this bill, or res…resolve, whatever. (Note to readers next couple of words were mumbled.)…Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions of Mr. Williams? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony.”
John : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 16781? (Long pause.) Please announce your name please.”
James Cody
James : “Sure. Senator Collins, Representative Cebra, my name is James Cody. I’m the President and C.E.O. of the Associated Public Contractors of Maine. I reside in Farmington, and I am please to…”
(Note to Readers : Recorder was shut off to save space on tape. The same goes for Jim Handly, who lives in Gray Maine and also spoke in favor of L.D. 1671. Jim Spoke right after James Cody and also on behalf of Associate General Contractors Guild of Maine.)
Ben Yeoman
Ben : “Senator Collins, Representative Cebra, My name is Ben Yeoman, I am from Gorham. I represent the Maine State Chamber of Commerce. A state wide business organization made up of a network of 5,000 businesses, all across this state. I’m here to deliver our testimony in support of L.D. 1671. I’d just like to take a quick side note and say, that, ah, David Connors the President and C.E.O., of the Maine State Chambers sends his regrets. He wanted to be here himself, as this is an issue very important to us, and, ah, as a former D.O.T. Commissioner, he’s…very familiar with this. And he does send his regrets, he wanted to be here himself this afternoon. But, as, I heard, (clears throat.) stood…ah, sat back in the audience, and, ah, listened to the testimony being delivered, that this has been a concept, ah, since the 60’s as it’s been delivered; ah, it reminded me…back when I was a college student at the university of Maine back in 1995, I started to getting involved in the political process. I, ah, interned for Senator Olympia Snowe in Bangor. And as an intern the first meeting that I attended was a feasibility of an ‘East-West Highway.’ So it doesn’t go back to the 60’s, but to the 90’s, ah, was the first issue I was involved in and so I’m here to deliver our testimony in support of this.
We’d like to start out by thanking, ah, Senator Thomas for submitting this Legislation, and also for the timing of this feasibility study. We think the timing of this is, ah, ah, very well received. As we position our, our state, ah, coming out of the recession, in this economy, ah; and it’s important, that we get the facts and the information in moving forward the possibility of an, ‘East-West Highway.’ I think, ah, it’s very important as we saw earlier, that the benefits, ah, we sit in the middle of a large population here in the North Eastern United States. Plus, there’s statistics I think, there’s a population of 55 million in the North East. We’re in the center of that commerce. A lot of commerce can go on, if we establish this ‘East-West Highway,’ and the big business community is very supportive of it. So, we encourage you to support the feasibility study, and it moves forward. Thank you for your time and I’ll be happy to answer any questions.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions of Mr. Yeoman? Seeing none, thank you.”
Ben : “Thank you Senator.”
Tim Doyle
Senator Collins : “Any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671? Please step forward and announce your name please. (Long pause.) Before we go any further...I’d like to acknowledge in the audience, former House Chairs Committee: The Honorable Representative Fisher. Welcome.”
Mr. Fisher : “Thank you Senator.”
Tim : “Senator Collins, members of the committee, Ummm...my name is Time Doyle and I’m the Vice President of Maine Motor Transport Association. Our Association is comprised of approximately twelve hundred member companies; whose employees comprise a large portion of the 33,000 people, that make their living in the trucking industry in Maine. I’m here today to testify in favor of this resolve. The concept of an ‘East-West Highway,’ is not new as you’ve heard; and the benefits to Maine’s economy have been well documented over time. Many others before me have discussed those benefits and are marked for more familiar with the project, than I. I am here today to simply add the associations supports...to a project that will not only bring an efficient way to transport goods from New Brunswick to Quebec on Ontario; but would also open a more efficient delivery corridor from the coast of Maine and Canada, to markets in Michigan, Illinois, and beyond. The potential of utilizing the corridor for other purposes, such as the delivery of energy, only serves to make the project a more valuable asset; and will help Maine compete in the global market place.
In past Legislative sessions, the Association has testified in opposition of privatizing existing state capacity, until the tolling of existing capacity as a mechanism to fund current in, infrastructure. We have been and continue to be, however open to the idea of tolling new capacity where industry can do a cost benefit analyst of utilizing that capacity. One caveat to paying tolls on new capacity, would be that we would con...we continue to believe that industry should not pay additional state and Federal road use taxes for miles traveled on such private roads.
The proposed private road is laid out by those advocating the ‘East-West Highway,’ Would give trucking companies the opportunity to save hundreds of miles of travel , utilizing the planned alternative route; as opposed to taking current routes of travel. The ability to haul on the private road, at weight limits and configurations not authorized in Maine, or on other U.S. highways, adds another factor in the equation, that would be attractive to those companies; looking to move goods in a safe, efficient and cost effective manner.
In addition this project as proposed, would be entirely funded by private dollars, another point that we see as important. Investing state dollars in an investment grade study would demonstrate state support for this private project; and would return many times the investment to the state’s economy. The association understands the difficult budget, ah, the state finds itself in; but believers on balance, this is a very wise investment. Thank you and I’ll be happy to answer any questions the committee may have.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions of Mr. Doyle? Representative Perry, you have a question.”
Representative Perry : “Thank you Mr. Chair. Ummm....(Short pause.) If this road was built how much time does that save; with the products down east going to Detroit, Chicago? Do you have any idea, roughly how much?”
Tim : “Ahhh...I don’t have an, an exact time; but it certainly would be hours if not days. Ah, as you know, trucking companies are regulated by the hours of service. They’re limited to driving no more than 11 hours a day; and so the ability to save any time, certainly makes the industry much more productive.”
Senator Collins : “Any other questions? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony.”
Tim : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671? Please announce your name for the audience, as well as the listening audience.”
Steve Perry
Steve : “Senator Collins, members of the Transportation Committee, my name is Steve Perry and I’m a resident of Lincoln Maine. I’m also, ah, Chief estimator in Marketing for Sargent Corporation. A family owned company, located in Stillwater Maine. And for the last 80 years, ah, we have been a construction company with about 400 employees. And our main focus has been in construction. Highway markets have been one of those major sectors. And over the years, what we’ve experienced, is that, the highways of the system, in, the State of Maine, is our lifeblood. And you’ve heard very good testimony today; I’m not going to reiterate that. But it is the lifeblood; and given the opportunity the State of Maine, given...with all the people and businesses, to compete...with there’s no limits, to what we can do and bring the state back. And thank you very much for your comments. Ah, thank you very much for your time and , I’ll welcome any questions.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions? Seeing none, thank you. Any additional testimony in favor of L.D. 1671? Please step forward. Does that close the testimony in favor of? (Pause.) Any testimony (Hesitant.) in opposition to L.D. 1671? Please step forward and announce your name. Is this in opposition to L.D. 1671?
Anthony Dunn
Anthony Dunn : “…I’d like to present the committee…”
Senator Collins : “Sir, ah, I manage this committee room.”
Anthony Dunn : “O.K.”
Senator Collins : “…And, ah…”
Anthony Dunn : “O.K. Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Can you give your testimony please?”
Anthony Dunn : “Ummm…(pause.) Yeah, I got a couple of parts. First I was prepared, I’ve, some prepared notes, but, ah, based on what I heard today, maybe I got a couple of responses too. Yeah, my name is Anthony Dunn, and I’m here to speak in opposition to L.D. 1671: $300,000 feasibility study for a proposed highway across the middle of the state of Maine, ought not to pass for many reasons. I’m a resident of Portland and a founding member of a state wide Maine rail-trans coalition. Coalition of transportation, housing, energy and environmental professionals and businesses that seek the balance funding in transportation. In a manner that provides for sustainable jobs, increase land values and of course environmental protection. Our Organization advocates for intergraded system of transportation and considers all modes of moving goods and services. With an emphasis on the efficacies of railway transportation systems. And specifically state and Federal policies that encourage and in many cases require that alternative to road building be considered in all analysis of road construction projects. I, Ummm…and, Ummm…I don’t have it right here in my hand, but the state of Maine recently, ah, completed, just so it might be able to maybe how much it cost and how long it takes, to do a feasibility analyst. The state of Maine recently complete3d, ah, a Portland (Note to readers: speaker jumbled his words too fast to decipher here.)…finance study looking for alternative modes for the Portland corridor North. It cost $1.3 million. It took 5-6 years to complete, and it was being based on all the former studies that were done, In other words, all the data was there, it took 5 years and $1.3 million to complete the Portland North, (Note to readers: Again, words are said so fast and scrambled, it is impossible to decipher here.)…study, and they did not do an environmental analyst. Just an idea of what it takes, and what it costs to do the studies.
I’m also a Realtor. I practice commercial real estate. I have been since 1982 in Maine. I also practice in New Hampshire. Ummm…I discovered many years ago the value of transportation to commercial real estate. And in fact, have found great success in practicing the theory that when a rail way crosses the center of a town or city, that the property surrounding that location is value often not recognized by planners, policy makers or to my advantage, realtors. Ummm…but there’s great value in rail. In fact my findings are now are showing up in hundreds of millions of dollars in new jobs being created along the Down East Amtrak corridor. But, also my findings are supported by National surveys and findings by a variety of interests, including, ah, the National Association of Realtors. Somewhere here, I have this study. I tell you, I have all these 1990’s studies with me, if anybody wants a reference with them. Ah, the N.A.R. smart growth transportation, ah, work book…great book for realtors and transportation planners, ah, explains that the importance of transportation to real wealth, to creation of wealth. Ummm…it’s important to note, and this is true to more studies than the N.A.R., that most findings show that, new road building is not attracting economic development. And in fact, we are finding that road construction, maintenance and repairs are more of a burden on municipal and state budgets, than equal or lower investments in passenger rail and multi-modal transit systems. With of course a greater investment.
If our goal is to move goods, ah, please there’s a map I gave all of you, that shows the railways of Maine. We got a railway that follows the same corridor. It’s there. It hasn’t been used as much as it use to be. Not that long ago though. So if, if the goal is to move goods, we already have a rail road. And so…what are we asking for? I heard a lot of this today, but still didn’t get where the jobs are coming from, besides the construction jobs. What are we shipping that is so important that requires a Billion dollar plus, strip of pavement across the center of Maine? And why is it so important to do it now? On with that note, I really, really would look/ ask for a explanation for the difference between a resolve and an L.D.. I don’t think we were given that earlier. Ummm…and why are we doing it right now? You are going to appropriations with a $250 Million shortfall. We’re slashing Health and Human Services. We’re threatening to close schools. And we are, last I heard, seven hundred million, but at least hundreds of millions of dollars short of paying to maintain the very expensive roads and bridges we have right now. I liked hearing that we saved a million dollars in transportation, the other day. And I enjoy knowing that, that they can find $300,000 for planning when we need it. But, that’s not the story that I got sitting in these transportation committee, over the past couple of years. It’s actually, we got great shortfall in our transportation budget.
Hey, your, you have your notes. I’m not going to spend too much time on the idea of the individuals working behind the scenes. But, I would like to say, that right now, the process in Maine State Law requires full public participation. Not behind the scenes. Before you move into spending big bucks or any bucks, on another consultant to write a plan for what appears to me, to be a predetermined outcome.
In addition, Federal Transportation funding requirements since at least 2005, have required that all alternative modes be considered, in order to be viable requests for transportation funding. I did hear today, that we’re going to be looking at all modes. Not quite how I think it will be done, but…(pause,) that was one, ah, bright spot.
We have great issues before us. Jumping on a bandwagon for building a new paved highway, is not the solution. We need a system attic evaluation, of all our needs, all the resources. Before you begin to use new resources on a project, that will just perpetuate our problems.
I heard someone ask, ‘If we built this 20 years ago, how much different would our economy be now?’ Well, considering that we have to rebuild a road every ten years, at cost of about a million dollars a mile; I think that billion dollar ‘Boon-doggle’…(Woman in audience chuckles.) Will, would cause our economy to be all poorer. So…(Exhales deeply.) at great risk of rate…or the wraith, of, I mean, what…I just heard that every lobbyist in the state of Maine, representing construction companies across the state of Maine…”
Senator Collins : “Mr. Sullivan, I got to interrupt you for one second. Ummm…we’re here to conduct a public hearing on the resolve to appropriate $300,000 to do a feasibility study. So, if you’re going to address your comments to that, I appreciate it.”
Anthony : “ I was…I thank you sir. I look for public support, of even a $300,000 expenditure and I did not see it here today at this public hearing. And I guess I’ll close with just a quick final remark, is that, Ummm…(Long pause.) That power point presentation was incorrect. It was misleading. And again, at risk of making enemies, or although like I said to Senator Thomas earlier, ‘I look forward to speaking with critics, and showing them the light.’ But that was wrong and misleading ad, Ummm…I would suggest that we do not pass this bill.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions…”
Anthony : “Any questions?”
Senator Collins : “” For Mr. Sullivan? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony.”
Anthony : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Any additional testimony in opposition to L.D. 1671? Please step forward. (Pause.) And for the record, for those in the audience, as well as the listening audience, announce your name please.”
Bob Weingarten
Bob Weingarten : “My name is Bob Weingarten, from, ah, Vienna Maine.” (Pause. Then whispering.) “Testimony I have.” (Another pause, then back to normal voice volume.) “I am here today to speak on behalf of ‘Friends of the Boundary Mountains,’ and urge you to vote, ‘ought not to pass,’ on L.D. 1671. This mission of the ‘Friends of the Boundary Mountains,’ is to safe guard the Boundary Mountains, from development and to conserve the area for traditional uses of recreation, forestry and wildlife habitat. The Boundary Mountains of North Western Maine, offer to the sauntering eye, an invitation of wonder and joy. Here in a tiny corner of, ah, New England, there is precious ground. Throbbing with the inexhaustible, ah, rhythm of nature and providing the tonic of wildness. The Boundary Mountains are well appreciated, by those that visit and enjoy it’s spender. This is remote country. It’s wild and unique. As you drive from Stratton Maine to Canada, you will note some of the natural and historic features, of this special region. Many points of interest are beckon your further exploration, as you pass through the Boundary Mountains. Yet, threats to the Boundary Mountains, include the ‘East-West Highway.’ Which proponents envision blasting through the mountains, carrying four lanes of truck traffic, with the attendant of noise and pollution.
Once again, the Boundary Moun…Ah, ah, oh,….Once again the “East-West Highway,’ is, ‘raising its ugly head.’ This time as a private toll-road. We don’t know the exact proposed route. But, from the map that I’ve seen from the presentation, it’s looks like it will be slicing through the heart of the Boundary Mountains. Since 1999, our group, ‘Friends of the Boundary Mountains,’ has been against any ‘East-West Highway,’ and we continue our steadfast opposition today. This proposal is a terribly destructive environmental ‘Boon-Doggle.’ Such development, ah, would be contrary to economic interest of Northern and Western Maine. And to the detriment to the environment on the communities in those regions. It would be especially, ah, destructive to the tourism industry. I’d just like to add that, in 1999 when we opposed the, ‘East-West Highway,’ the, ah, Maine Sporting Camps association joined with us in our opposition. I don’t know what their…distance today, but there are many tourist, Ummm…organizations, and, and, and individuals in my area, who would oppose this. Because it would not bring what people…rather it, would just ah, it would bypass the communities and the, and the places where they go.
Now furthermore, it is utterly outrageous to even contemplate a general fund appropriation of $300,000 for a feasibility study, in this time of severe, ah, budget cutting of Human Services, Maine Care and Education. It is unethical to use taxpayer, ah, money to fund a private project. And you know, I heard these associated commissioners say that there was, Ummm…’extra planning funds kicking around.’ While there’s extra planning around, they should be going back to the general fund, to, to help the 99% of Maine people who really are struggling in this economy. Not, the 1% Bob Cianbro. So I’ll just conclude saying that, there will be lots of opposition, environmentally, and socially and economically against even a fifth, a, ah, feasibility study. This was a bad idea to begin with, 20 years ago and it’s still a very bad idea. Thank you very much.”
Senator Collins : “Alright, just a moment. Any questions of Mr. Weingarten? Seeing none. Thank you for your testimony.”
Bob Weingarten : “Thank you.”
Chris Buchanans’ public comment opposing L.D. 1671:
Senator Collins : “Any additional testimony in opposition to L.D. 1671? Please step forward, announce your name.”
Chris Buchanan : “Ummm…My name is Chris Buchanan. Ummm…I’m a …”
Senator Collins : “Excuse me?”
Chris Buchanan : “Sorry. My name is Chris Buchanan. I am an organizer with Defending Water for Life in Maine. Ummm…and we are opposed to L.D. 1671. Ummm…There are very many reasons why we’re opposed to this Bill. Ummm…the feasibility study and the highway in general. I know that you’ve heard a lot today, Ummm…and I’ll try to go through it as quick as I can.
Ummm…first and foremost, we believe that it’s extremely unethical for the state to be looking at, Ummm…public funding for a private project. Ummm…especially in the face of cuts, to Health Care and Social Services. Ummm…as the committee is aware, from, Ummm…Senator Thomas’s Ummm…sponsorship, Ummm…of the Bill and testimony. Ummm…the ‘East-West Highway,’ is obviously proposed to be a private toll road. Ummm…I’ve heard Senator Thomas saying many times, in his initial sponsorship, that, ‘this study wouldn’t be funded by taxpayers, but rather by private of Federal funds.’ And he was going to try very hard to make sure that, that happened. Ummm… But that didn’t work out. So, now we’re looking at $300,000 of taxpayer money and Ummm…we don’t think that, that’s honest. Ummm…especially with what people are facing today.
Ummm…I’ve heard a lot of people speak today, that we’re ‘looking for innovative and creative solutions to problems that we have in Maine.’ Ummm…with the economy, needs for jobs, Ummm…people really need something. And I don’t think that the center of Maine is hollow. Ummm…I really ask this committee, to look into the future and ask what people want in Maine, for the long term. We’re looking right now at rising fuel costs associated with less supply of fossil fuels. More demand of fossil fuels. We’re facing ‘Peak Oil.’ We’re not always going to have access to fossil fuels. Ummm…and we feel like it’s incredible unwise, and irresponsible to support any project that would increase infrastructure for fossil fuel use. Ummm…primarily, because it’s a project that you can’t take down. Ummm…you’re creating this, infrastructure that would impact Maine irreversibly, Ummm… for ah…we believe very little benefit to Maine, So, I go on with that. Ummm…what we, I like to focus on the positive, so, Ummm…what we really urge you to focus on, are alternatives that will benefit Maine people and our local economy. Ummm…although it may be beyond the scope of this committee in a broader sense. As a voice for the people and leaders in your communities, Ummm…really urge you to support initiatives that would spur local growth. Ummm…like assisting Mainers in creating value added products,As a promotion our first 100 advertisements will be free with the option of being permanent. (To be permanent, a working phone number and the business must still be in operation.) You can make inquiries to:
Music Trade Magazine @ hotmail.com Ummm…revitalizing smaller communities. Ummm…we feel like the ‘East-West Highway,’ would reduce the health and accessibility of Maine’s Environment. By burning more fossil fuels, Ummm…and investing in an infrastructure that will become more and more obsolete over time. Ummm…In addition to supporting the fossil fuel consumption in a world that is realistically running out of fossil fuels and facing climate change. Ummm…there’s lots of reasons, in addition that it wouldn’t benefit Maine. Ummm…its primary use, as we’ve heard from a lot of the proponents, was that it would be a ‘thru-way,’ for Canadian transport trucks. Ummm…the number that we’ve proposed for this toll would be $75 to cross Maine. Ummm…there will be few on and off ramps, as we’ve heard. Ummm…other than to refueling station or rail yards. I don’t see, Ummm…tourists spending an exorbitant amount of toll to travel on this road. Ummm…I don’t see tourists wanting to use, possibly you know, between two and four on and off points, Ummm…to access Maine. And that’s one of, Maine’s primary economic, Ummm…sectors.
Ummm…in addition when we talk about local business, Ummm…and local economic viability, Ummm…you also want a lot of access, in that way. And again, you know, I question, who this road is really for. Is it for companies that have a lot of money, Ummm…or is it for Mainers? Ummm…(exhales to sign deeply.) One thing that I heard mentioned, Ummm…by Mr. Vigue, was that Oxford food, Ummm…and McCain are already here, as the world’s largest producers of blueberries and potatoes. Ummm…so if we’re seeing such significant businesses already operating in the northern part of Maine, then what is it about? They’re already connected in, and Maine’s still struggling. So, I think again, back to the creative, more local economy, Ummm…I highly encourage you to look at that route. Ummm…We’re concerned that, with increased diesel traffic, that brings increased pollution, run off, a lot of negative environmental impact and ongoing decrease of land values surrounding the highway. Ummm…you are effectively splitting the highway, Errr…or splitting the state between southern and northern, by having this corridor. Ummm…and we think it would vastly reduce Maine’s tourist appeal. Ummm…which is a significant source of income, as I’ve said, I’m sorry. Ummm…I’m not going to get into the environmental impacts too heavily. We know it’s going to run over three major rivers, numerous water sheds, Ummm…three unbroken forest lands. We believe it will cause irrefutable damage, Ummm…that is the heart of Maine’s identity and why people live here. People live here because they love Maine. They don’t live in Pennsylvania where they’ve taken out most of the coal. They don’t…there, there, there’s a big difference between Maine and a lot of other places. And I hear people talking about, how it would be important to, Ummm…make Maine more like those places. Where people have more economic opportunity. Well, there’s a reason why people live here. Ummm…and if they wanted to live in a place that had a ‘thru-way,’ for transport trucks and increased trade, then, them, that’s where they would live. Ummm…but people enjoy our environmental here and the way that life is.
Ummm…we think that the project will actually create few jobs. Contrary to what a lot of folks have said, lobbying. Ummm…especially in comparison to jobs in social services, that are facing cuts. Ummm…we know that it’s a private project. We know that it’s been something that Cianbro has been talking about for many years. Ummm…I don’t know who is going to work on the project. But we do know that, Ummm…if Cianbro is a contractor, they, they move their workforce. When a project ends, they’ll move their workforce to the next project. So, I do know how much ‘new jobs,’ will be created by contractors, that regularly do large infrastructural projects. Ah, they have a workforce. Ummm…in addition if there’s some gas station service jobs, that would be more jobs. Toll worker jobs are created, but Ummm…we expect those to become obsolete over the next three years with automation. Ummm…So.
Finally and critically, Ummm…and actually the reason why Defending Water for Life got involved, Ummm…is because, this project exposes Maine’s exploitation of raw resources and materials, by multi-national corporations, that do not provide many jobs. Do not spend their profits in Maine and do not pay taxes here. Raw material extraction is, is not a way that we are going to subvert the Maine economy. Ummm…it’s just a way that, some of the most valuable wealth in Maine and the core of Maine’s identity,
will get taken away out of the state, and not be accessible for local people. Or people that want to make a living off on it, over the long term. Ummm…we think that exporting lumber, bulk water and gravel is very short sighted, and devastate the future of our home. Ummm…in regards to a potential ‘super corridor,’ for future L.N.G. pipelines, high voltage transmission lines, Ummm…from Industrial Wind projects. Ummm…we just feel like this project is critical in terms of the fate of Maine. It could irresistibly damage it and we are not seeing any benefits. So, that’s why, Ummm…Defending Water for Life in Maine, is opposed. Ummm…I’ve heard a lot today that’s makes me excited about spending time in work sessin with you folks. Ummm…I would like to do more research that could be helpful. Ummm…I am dedicated to trying to find objective, Ummm…facts and I appreciate your time very much. Thank you for having me.”
Rep. Cebra : “Is there any other questions from members of the Committee? Representative Bowdoinham.”
Chris : “you have a question? Oh, I’m sorry.”
Rep. Cebra : “Representative Bowinham.”
Rep. Bowinham : “Thank you.”
Chris : “I’m sorry, thanks.”
Rep. Bowdinham : “Ummm…good job, I’m appreciating where you’re coming from. But when you had a statement in there that derogating an ‘East-West Highway,’ into dividing the State. Just looking at it, I see it completely opposite.”
Chris : “Mmph.”
Senator Bowdinham : “As bringing…kind of tying the state in together. What would you say about that?”
Chris : “Well, I, I, I guess I see…I don’t see how a road that primarily used to, to connect one part of Canada to another part of Canada, Ummm…links people together in Maine. Ummm…People that want to visit each other in Maine do have smaller roads that they travel on regularly.”
Senator Bowdinham : “I just felt I’d ask that. Thank you.”
Rep. Cerbra : “Are there any other questions from members of the Committee? Seeing none, thank you.”
Chris : “Thanks very much.”
Jody Spear
Representative Cebra : “Is there anyone else present, who would like to testify in opposition to L.D. 1671? Seeing none. Is there anyone…”
Jody : “Oh!” (Chuckles, then room breaks out in small laughter.)
Representative Cebra : “We all know that there is an answer to that question.” (More laughter from room.)
Jody : “I thought that there would be more.”
Representative Cebra : “Good afternoon.”
Jody : “Good afternoon Senator Collins and Representative Cebra, and members of the Committee. I sent some testimony to you yesterday by email. And I may include some extemporary comments as I go through it. The. The route that…”
Representative Cebra : “Could, could you, ah, just state your name and your, ah…”
Jody : “Oh, sorry. I’m Jody Spear. I live in Brooksville. Ummm…I’m not from ‘away.’ By the way. I grew up in Maine. The route proposed for peter Vigue’s industrial highway goes very close to a number of landmarks that draw, ah, people from all over the World. Ah, Moosehead lake, is only one example. Ummm…destroying priceless wetlands and growth forests in the process. Three major rivers would have to be bridged. And the environmental harm the project would cause, along with vanish to wildlife habitat are reasons enough to deny permits.
The last of Maine’s wilderness needs permanent protection from Developers, and taxpayers should not be burden with any costs of funding a project. Including the $300,000 being demanded for a feasibility study. Who stands to profit from this scheme? Cianbro Construction and it’s investors. Canadian truckers moving imported goods from the Port of Halifax to Quebec; Any number of extractive industries taking Maine water and wood chips to East Coast shippers for export. The selectmen of Searsport who are promoting a container Port on Sears Island, One of whom serves on this committee, (Note to readers: nervous coughing in background blocked our possible name.) filed a request with Senator Collins for, ‘East-West Highway,’ funding. Obviously with a plan in mind to bring more commercial activity to their town. Unfortunately what it would bring is disaster. Compromising the quality of life for the entire state. Like the container port, in Searsport, this highway through Maine’s North woods is a bad idea.
I object also to the scheduling of L.D. 1671 as an emergency bill. It benefits only multi-national corporations, not the citizens of Maine and we say: ‘No.’ We ask you to not to pass the resolve. Ummm…I can’t really resist, ah, in view of some of the comments I heard about this being environmentally, Ummm…supportive. Ummm…the fact that this…(pause.) It goes against everything that Maine stands for. It’s ‘killing the golden goose.’ We don’t have ‘a hollow to be filled.’ We have something priceless. That people who, live there care about. People who, who think of Maine as a place for, for rest and relaxation, care about, and we shouldn’t destroy it. Thank you very much.”
Representative Cebra : “Thank you. Are there any questions from members of the committee? Seeing none, we thank you for your testimony. Is there anyone else present who wishes to testify in opposition to L.D. 1671? Step forward.”
Jenny Gray
Jenny : “Hi.”
Representative Cebra : “Good Afternoon.”
Jenny : “Good Afternoon.”
Representative Cebra : “State your name and residence.”
Jenny : “O.K.. Jenny Gray. Ah, I live in Wiscasset. I wasn’t planning on doing this. I was at a different protest. But, I decided to come to this one, ‘cuz…ah, O.K.! So, anyway, ‘What’s your point?’ I, I did work construction. I was probably…well that doesn’t matter. I loved working construction. Ummm…I understand it. Ummm…I don’t anymore. But, I think we’re at a juncture. Globally, locally, state, where we’re being at, to transition our energies. And I would ask that A.G. Sargent, Ummm…who taught me how to drive dump trucks, Cianbro, Ummm…and the big corporations, to think about transitioning our workforce. Ummm…(pause.) They could re-train them. We need farms. They could become…they could go into the farming industry. They could train their people to, ah, build train engines. They could train their people to, ah, lay track and do maintenance.
Ah, the oil, in the World’s going to go down. I don’t know how much oil it takes to, ah, do a mile of road. I know that there’s 7 gallons in every tire, on every car. I don’t think that the ‘tar-sands,’ is going to go through. It’s dirty, Ummm…it’s corrosive, it’s a last straw that we’re grasping at. I think a lot of what we’re doing now is grasping at the old ways. To continue doing things the old ways, when we should be looking at transitioning. Ummm…I believe rail can haul a hell of a lot more freight than the trucking industry. A lot of my friends are, ‘Red-Necks.’ They’re truckers, they’re ’18 wheelers.’ I used to live with them down in Jersey. I am from ‘away.’ Ummm…I understand…(pause,)…but it’s a time when all of us are going to have to stop doing what we’ve been doing and do something different. And I think the big companies have the resources to do that. If they put their mind to it. Ummm…the oil’s going away. Trains are a lot more efficient. Oh, and P.S. I love the woods. Yeah, Ummm…the wild things. I think that the farming…I think that they can transition into different kinds of businesses. We can’t keep doing things, the way we’ve been doing them. The highway’s not going to help a dammed thing. Ummm…rail, water, and local. And the big companies should be in on the transition, and not, trying to keep doing things, ‘the same ol’, same old.’ Thank you for your time, Good Day.”
Representative Cebra : “Thank you. Are there any, ah, questions from members of the committee? Seeing none. Is there anyone else present who wishes to speak in opposition to L.D. 1671? Good afternoon.”
Dave Wood
Dave : “Good afternoon. My name is Dave Wood. I live in Hallowell. I just have one question for you people. How does this bill qualify as an ‘Emergency bill?’”
Representative Cebra : “Oh! That’s right. The work session for this bill is Thursday February 16th at 1 p.m.. That’s when we, ah…”
Diane Messer in audience : “Oh, come on!”
Dave : “Why is it an ‘Emergency bill?’ I want…I think these people would like to know.”
Diane Messer and an unidentified woman in the audience at the same time…
Unidentified woman : “We would like to know.”
Diane Messer : “We have a right to know.”
Unidentified woman : “We would like to know.”
Diane Messer : “Let us know. We came all the way out here.”
Representative Cebra : (Hits gavel at block and then drops is on table.) Ummm…At the work session. I, I, I don’t answer your questions here. I’m sorry. I don’t have an answer to this.”
Diane Messer in audience : “We don’t need a work session to answer this.”
Dave : “I think, there’s like a 90 day delay or something, if it’s an Emergency bill. So, you’re buying…are you trying to buy 90 days to get this approved? Is that, is that the answer? I don’t…I just wondered why it’s an emergency bill.”
Representative Cebra : “Any bill…That’s right, any bill can be an emergency bill. Emergency is a, ah…”
Dave : “Well, why is that this stuff seems to meet the, ah, definition that I saw it online…of Emergency bills? Well, it’s for health, safety…”
Representative Cebra : “The…”
Dave : “…Public Safety, or Health or something like that.”
(Pause.)
Representative Cebra : “No, I think he’s correct, on these points. So…(Pause.) No I don’t see an Emergency on this on its own. But the Original bill was an emergency, but the resolve that they…no….I don’t think it is. No, I don’t believe the resolve…”
Dave : “It’s not an emergency bill?”
Unidentified voice : “It’s not an Emergency bill.”
Unidentified woman : “No.”
Dave : “So, you have 90 days to make this?”
Representative Cebra : “The, ah, the way that the process works is, is that a emergency bill with an emergency , enacted when signed by the Governor, ah, becomes law immediately. That’s why they, they call it an ‘Emergency bill.’ A, ah, bill that’s not an Emergency, or doesn’t have the Emergency language in it, Ummm…once signed by the Governor, ah, becomes law 90 days after the Legislature is done. That’s the difference between an Emergency bill.”
Dave : “So, this is not, as far as Emergency under the bill it’s not…O.K…”
Representative Cebra : “Alright?”
Dave : “Thank you.”
Representative Cebra : “Are there any questions from members of the Committee? Seeing none. Are there any other members of the public wishing to speak in opposition to L.D. 1671? Step forward please.”
Will Neils Public Comment
Rep. Cebra : “…Are there any other members of the public wishing to testify in opposition to L.D. 1671? Step forward please.”
Will : “Hello Representative Cebra and, ah, our absent other committee chair Collins and all. My name is Will Neils. I’m a lifetime resident of Appleton, Knox County. Northern Knox County. And as many have stated, so enthusiastically where the area they are from, I’d like to consider it the most beautiful area of Maine. But unfortunately there’s all those people from ‘away,’ who remind us that it isn’t anymore. And that’s, you see, part of the problem of course, with what happens when you open up gateways and things. It’s all very exciting here, as we’re talking about this. Ummm…I know it seems really, really, valuable to all the business people who think it’s a good idea. Ummm…but unfortunately, none of the less, we still need to deal with some very, very basic cold hard facts about this proposal. I think, first cold hard fact is this, if, if we’re diluting ourselves into believing that this highway, which they’re been floating, I believe since sporadically in different forms, since the Great Depression. I mean, it dates from the Roosevelt Administration, originally. It’s in the original suggestions about this. So if we had 80 years to do this in the State of Maine, with Federal Money and they still haven’t figured out a way to get the public to fund it. It seems relatively delusional, to believe that the private sectors’ going to step up and do it immediately, if they haven’t already. I mean, you would think they would run into it. I wonder why thy’re holding back. Ummm…but none of the less, Ummm…we have to recognize that this will have a very, very hard affect on Northern Maine. There will be cultural repercussions. Anytime a community is ‘blown up,’ and I think anybody who has a large four lane highway put to their community, if they grew up there, would consider it be sort of ‘blown up.’ You know, it sort of changes differently, culturally and everything. Ummm…and if you don’t agree with me, go to Belgrade. It’s not there, but it’s awful close. Isn’t it? Gosh, and there’s a lot of people in there from ‘away,’ with their money. Because it’s so conveniently easy to access in the ‘beamer.’ And that’s the thing, you see about access. The access here…I don’t know. But I’m not sure a lot about the folks who live up and around Dover-Foxcroft, Sangerville, where I hang out, some of those places. I don’t know if they’re going to have 50, 75, 100. We don’t exactly know how many dollars it’s going to be to participate in this nifty private highway. But I doubt very much that any local Mainers are going to be able to (Note to readers: coughing in audience blocked out a word.) on it. So that means, what you got is, what you have when you travel through Central America. Some of those really nifty privately funded highways down in Mexico. Which I think, are favored by all sorts of different business. You know how many different kinds of businesses are in Mexico. Ummm…but the reality is, it’s cost prohibited to the communities that they run through. You don’t get to participate in it. So that’s one cold hard fact we should begin to start to get in our heads. Because that of course is going to be one of the things your constitutes will hold you accountable for latter, if you presented to them, that this is going to be some sort of positive thing for them. And then they find out they can’t even participate economy. I have a sneaking suspicion they may hold you accountable for that, in fact, and that’s one of the things we have to recognize.
So, A) is cost. It’s going to be cost prohibited to us, the Mainers. Then at that point and time we must get into, ‘Why would it be happening?’ Well, I guess then it’s got to be beneficial to those Canadian companies. Which, thank you so much Pete,
for being so truthful about everything. We do appreciate you listing ‘Irving,’ twice. They are quite powerful here in this part of the region. Ummm…It’s important for us to remember, it’s the Canadian companies who are driving this discussion. Ummm…The only people you’d find in this state, who will stand up for it, right now, are a few representatives of some trade organizations who signed on. Besides Pete of course, he’s going to make a lot of money on this, so if he wants it, but; but none-of-the-less, I point out, we didn’t see one citizen who didn’t have a ‘nifty,’ title. (Note to readers: Next sentence was spoken too fast to transcribe.) …speak for this. Not one citizen. There are title. Titles, everybody had titles. O.K.? And I think that, that’s, that’s a really good interesting sign. We did have the lady right here, who runs the Heritage Farm, which I think is really important. Ummm…but none-of-the-less, that’s the point. Is this is not about us having some symbolic token celebration of by gone Maine History and era and past. The reality is, there isn’t a, ‘hollow section,’ of Northern Maine, that ‘encompasses the east, west and north,’ apparently as some people believe. That actually is the last living active culture we have in this state, that hasn’t been destroyed yet.
I went to high school in Camden. Appleton you get routed to Camden for high school. So we had the great joyous benefit of associating with all those annoying children from ‘away,’
and cultural repercussions of that. We lost most of the coast. O.K., that culture that we’re all so proud of. Good luck being fishermen in Camden Harbor now. O.K.? So, that’s the whole point, you, know, is, is, if we don’t draw lines in the sand, and start talking about our communities, our real communities, the heart of Maine, not the ‘Hallow part.’ The heart of Maine, is our heritage and our culture. And it’s the traditions which have kept at least a huge portion of this state, somehow rational, in the face of the insane culture, which America has attempted to drive down our throats. And we have to acknowledge that, because our elders, the ‘old-timers,’ in the Heart of Maine, they always knew, it was a scam. It was just the folks who got ‘conned,’ into coming down here to Augusta, and moving to Bangor or going to Portland who didn’t realize it was a scam.”
A State Representative with no name given : “Point of order.”
(Sound of gavel coming down.)
Rep. Cebra : “Representative, excuse me.”
Unidentified State Representative : “I’m not sure…”
Rep. Cebra : “Representative…”
Unidentified State Representative : “I’m not sure this discussion is germane to the bill. It’s a resolve that we’re talking about. It’s not a done deal.”
Will Neils : “I point out Pete Vigue got to pontificate for 35 minutes here.”
(Audience starts clapping a little.)
Unidentified State Representative : “About the bill.”
(Room breaks out into louder applause. Gavel comes down.)
Rep. Cebra : “There will be order in the room.”
Will Neils : (Chuckles.) “There will be order, as long as it’s fair sir.”
( Two beat pause.)
Rep. Cebra : “I just want to, I just want to say one thing.”
Will Neils : “Yes sir.”
Rep. Cebra : “O.K.? Because the Chairman…the Senate Chair, didn’t read this at the beginning of the hearing, but: ‘The purpose of this hearing is to invite testimony from members of the public regarding the proposed legislation, that is pending before this committee. The committee will hear the testimony from persons, ah, to be heard today with lead of a chair. Committee members may ask questions of any person testifying today. Other questions are not permitted. Whether or not you testify, you may submit written testimony to the committee and it will be distributed to committee members. Please keep your comments, to the bill, the resolve at hand, L.D. 1671. That’s all. That’s it. It’s done.’”
Will Neils : “Thank you, Rich.”
Rep. Cebra : “No, it’s Chairman Cebra. Thank you.”
Will Neils : “Yes sir.” (Clears throat.) “In returning to the resolve, ah, with the suggestive expenditure of $300,000. I believe it is not necessarily exclusively accessed to global markets, as suggested by some. Which hinder our ability to value add our products in this state. The simple reality is, if we had more ways to value add blueberries, instead of selling them raw to other companies which process them. Other ways to value add a variety of the things we do produce in this state, that would change the economic dynamics at hand. The problem is a lack of vision. And so therefore when people step up here and claim of course that is the challenge, you have to address it. Ah, I apologize Representative Cebra, if I got off topic. But, none-of-the-less, it is concerning to me, because we have to deal with the facts. When you sell stuff, raw, with almost no refinement, you’re not getting your dollar value added. It’s that simple. And so I don’t believe, that exclusively trucks routes (Inaudible word.) hampering certain value adding Maine products. And I think that’s relatively…(Inhales deeply.) It’s just inefficient and it’s disingenuous to claim it is.
Let’s get back to a couple of very specific points here. Representative Thomas claimed that the good folks who were providing hard-wood products, up there in his general area, and to reach out further for their white birch. Ummm…perhaps they’re be reaching out to Canada. So that way, we’ll be importing tree’s from outside the state of Maine. That concerns me. Ummm…Senator Sherman with the Maine Canadian advisory commission, (clears throat.) explained in depth about, ah, how supportive the Canadians are of this. I’m not surprised. Ummm…I would consider them to be ignorant, if they weren’t supporting us expending this money to their benefit. Ummm…I’m sure they would be supportive of this. Ummm…I’m sure they would be supportive of this. Ummm…I just don’t think we should be supportive of this, and I don’t think you should be.
Deputy Commissar Van Note, who pointed out that the study has symbolically attached a $300,000 total. But, it’s not really clear, it may exceed that. That’s been called up to question by a variety of different people. Including people supporting, who support the (inaudible word.) study. Ummm…(exhales into a sign.) The ‘hallow middle,’ Mr. Vigue stated that this, ‘fulfills Maine’s hollow middle. The east, west and north.’ I guess it’s going to fill it with…what? Ummm…Canadian legal road trucks that have double trailers? Ummm…I doubt there’s a ‘hallow middle,’ in this state. I think there is a lack of respect for our cultural heritage and tradition. I think that, that disconnect does not begin when you get to Augusta. It begins farther north than that. And I think that idea that if we put a road, that totally bi-sects this state, through it, it’s going to make it better for the people above that road, is truly delusional. We have got to recognize that, what we need in this state, is visioning that comes not, exclusively from the giant business sector.
Who can figure out how to be able to scam more hard earned taxpayer dollars out of the government’s coffers. We need a vision that incorporates in the small communities, which are most affected, and that is crucial. The reason this highway has never been built, is because you still cannot get those citizens to step up, and I would ask you; ‘Where are they today?’ It was trade association representatives, who were here and people who will benefit from this. They’re all paid to be here. We are not and never will be. I urge you strongly to vote against this and I urge you to be sensible. Sensible…Think about it. It’s a long hard fight and it’s going to be a big campaign. And it will stay for the duration.”
(Will Neils taps a pen onto the podium three times.)
Rep Cebra : “Ah, thank you for your testimony. Are there questions from members of the committee?”
Will Neils : (Into tape recorder microphone.) “I’m sure there won’t be.”
Rep Cebra : “Seeing none. Is there anyone else who wishes to speak in opposition to L.D. 1671?”
Diane Messer Public Comment on L.D. 1671
Diane Messer : “Is it? The lights on.” (Note to readers: The microphone at the Statehouse committee rooms, light up when they are on.)
Rep Cebra : “Good afternoon.”
Diane Messer : “Good afternoon members of the committee and ah, members of the public. Thank you for being here and being so considerate…”
(Note to readers: This is the end of one tape. The next tape starts here.)
Diane Messer : “…Diane Messer, I reside in the town of Liberty Maine. I don’t think it should matter whether you’re from here of from somewhere else. Those of us who have chosen to be here, choose it for a good reason. We chose Maine for the quality of life that it affords. For the care of the environment. For the pristine quality of the wood. For the wild places. I’m also…because so many others, ah, spoke to the other topics I was going to address, I will, ah, focus my remarks, ah, elsewhere. Ah, I’ve been, ah, very concerned about energy and the, ah, future of transportation in general. (Exhales.) Roads are a dinosaur. They are a dying item that is, ah, should not be promoted. Should not be proliferated any further. The ah, toxic chemicals, the oil all of the different, ah, aspects of our Ummm…production system, that have to go into them. It, It, It’s just…(signs.) It’s not long sighted. What we are doing now, should be for the future betterment of this state. For future generations, to come. Not just for our selfish needs today, not just for our business and for our profit. But should be protecting our way of life.
Oil is going to get more expensive. It’s going to be more and more problematic to provide, all aspects of oil. We’re talking about the refine fuel. The, ah, materials that chemicals are made from it, that go into the roads. We are cutting off our nose to spite our face, If we dontinue to build like this.
We should be focusing on rail and on public transportation. We have wonderful rail system, that is slowly and surly being dismantled in this state. I think it’s a travesty. Not only should we be protecting and supporting the road…the rail systems, but we should be increasing them. And making them more available for business and shipping and commerce. All aspects of transportation. I am offended that we are talking about this ‘East-West Highway,’ as being essential for the betterment of the people of this state…and for the environment. It is neither. We have pasted ‘peak-oil,’ already. This atmosphere is at (coughs,) excuse me. (Coughs.) 392 parts per million of carbon, because of the level that we continue to burn fossil fuels at. Even if we stopped burning fossil fuels today, we would not approach the safe level which scientists have assessed at 350 parts per million, for close to a hundred years, it’s estimated.
Do we want to care for our, our future? For the future for our, our…not only our protragy, but our species. Do we not care, that we are soiling our nests? That we are destroying that which protects our life and sustains us? I think it’s a travesty. I think all of you need to look inside yourselves and think about, it’s not business as usual. It is not a matter of making a dollar of supporting the next project of moving goods from one port to the other. It should be with a great scheme in mind for the long-term future. I am trained to be a long-range planner. That’s what I got my, ah, academic training in. That is what I’ve applied myself to, in community betterment. 20 to 50 year plans. We are violating what we need to do, to ensure our health and well-being. And I urge you to think of this carefully. Very carefully, before you approve this. This is not simply a resolve. This is leading to a very specific project, and we keep that in mind when we deliberate. Thank you very much for your attention.”
Rep Cebra : “Thank you. Are there any questions from members of the committee? Seeing none…”
Sonia Acevedo Public comment opposing L.D. 1671
Rep Cebra: “Is there anyone else who wishes to testify in opposition to L.D. 1671?”
Sonia Acevedo : “Hello Senator Collins and members of the committee. My name is Sonia Acevedo. Ummm…I live in Thorndike Maine. Ummm…I’m a farmer there. Ummm…I have a lot of concerns about private/ public money being used to fund a private road that many of us may not afford to travel on, or use. It seems to be serving out-of-state, Ummm…and international business. Ummm…I think particularly in some of the sh…The budget shortfalls, Ummm…around the Department of Human Services, and public education. I’m a disabled single mother. I depend on Maine Care. Ummm…If I don’t have my medication, I will get sick. My child depends on public education. So, when I speak to this, I’m not speaking of some theoretical, economic equation. I’m talking about the reality of my own life. And there’s a lot of people like me, in Maine who are affected by these kinds of decisions and the way that public money is used.
I also would like to speak to, the way that public money could be used to subsidize studies on how to do cottage… you know, economies. So that, farmers don’t have to struggle as much to get their products on the market. Ummm…I’ve heard a lot of talk about ‘value added products,’ and there’s a lot of barriers. Ummm…legally for people to make their own money in Maine. There’s a lot of barriers to revitalizing local economies here. And if public money is going to be used for something, it should be used for local communities and developing micro economies. Instead of moving into the same, same business proposals that have gotten us into this mace, mess in the first place. Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions for Ms. Acevedo? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony. Any additional testimony in opposition to L.D. 1671? Please step forward and announce your name.”
Benjamin Marriner Pratt
Senator Collins “Any testimony neither for nor against?”
Benjamin : “Oouuiihh! I’m still…I’m against!”
Senator Collins : “Just step up to the mic please.”
Benjamin : “I know I jumped. I…”
Senator Collins : (Chuckles.)
Benjamin : “I wanted to make sure I was. I wasn’t bumping anyone who was still …”
Senator Collins : “Are you in opposition in fact?”
Benjamin : “I’m in opposition, sir.”
Senator Collins : “O.K.. Give me your name please.”
Benjamin : “My name is Benjamin Marriner Pratt and I live in the town of Eddington. And it’s, it’s a pleasure to be back here in Augusta. It’s good to see some old faces and some new ones. Ummm…And I appreciate your time, it’s been a long day. This is obviously a contentious and in theory, Ummm…compassionate debate. And, ah, ah, I, I appreciate everyone’s, ah, respect and everyone’s ah, ah, willingness to be here and listen. Because we aren’t going to solve the problems of the state of Maine, ah, by yelling at each other. And we aren’t going to solve the problems of the state of Maine, ah, by not having these discussions. Sometimes, they’re difficult, sometimes they are hard; but I thank you for listening, and I appreciate your being here. Ummm…and I will try to do, ah, err…(very short pause.) Most of my testimony to focus mostly on, on, what your all job is. Because, for a little while I, I had that one for a little bit, and I, and I think I can, I can say I understand what it’s like to being on, on that side of the horseshoe. And, and I…my question is, is, and I made this argument numerous times, when I was here on a number of other issues; but it’s all, it’s all about an allocation of resources. Right? And I’m talking at this point about, and in your all cases, the Transportation committee in particular,, (Laughter in voice.) it’s about allocating resources. And those are monetary issues. You know, I wish I could talk about all the other resources we have. Human resources and Natural resources, and all those thing. But right now you have a resolve. Now in front of you, that’s been stripped of its emergency. Which, which I question a little bit interestingly, in that now it doesn’t need, Errr, 2/3’s. Now, now it can go, with a simple majority. And now this $300,000 gets decided upon by a simple majority instead of 2/3’s, and, and, and that, that concerns me. Ummm…it, it, it’s a lot of money. You know? And, and, you’ve heard a lot of people talk about it, who can talk about it more passionately, than I am about…making these decisions and where those things are coming from. The fact is $300,000, right now, even if we’re talking about pacific/ specifically in transportation issues, I, I, I think there’s a heck a lot of other places we could be putting that right now, that would make a heck of a lot more sense. And, you know, it’s been said: ‘This idea of, of, of, of public money for private interest, particularly, this time,’ it’s concern…It’s absolutely a concern for me. It’s, It’s hard for me to think, If I was back on that side, going back to my constituents, and saying: ‘I realize your roads are full of potholes. I realize you’re beating the heck out of your cars. I realize we’re requiring you to, ah, to, you know, to, to keep up your inspection and all this and we’re making it harder and harder: because we can’t keep up the roads we have. But we’re going to spend $300,000, so that private companies can, can send big giant trucks across the state. With few, few, if any on and off ramps.’ It just…maybe has it’s time. Maybe it does. I’m not going to tell you, it, it, it, it, it, never does. I don’t think it ‘Jives,’ with my personal, (Inhales and chuckled.) opinions of things. But, but the fact is…if there is a time, it’s certainly not now and, and I, and I question, and urge you folks here, that have a very hard and difficult job to do; and it’s a thankless job and I know that. And I, I appreciate your being her, but you know, the fact is, I don’t know how anybody can go from this table right now, and go back to their folks and say: ‘Hey, we spent $300,000 on, on, on this, on this proposal with everything else that’s going on.’ And even in transportation, even if your focus is solely on transportation, I, I, I don’t know how that goes. So, Ummm…you know, I, I live in the town of Eddington. We have East-West highway issues right now. We’ll talk about 395 and route 9 extensions, that’s been going on forever, and ever and ever. It’s, it’s a whole other mess. You know, we’ve had study groups on that for time and time and time again. We’ve had public input and then all of a sudden, D.O.T. comes out, and does a brand new total route out of nowhere; that we thought, was ‘off the table,’ for years. So, I can appreciate studies. I’ve voted for studies when I was here. I don’t not…I’m not this, ‘anti-study,’ person…(Short pause.) But, I…It’s questionable. And I think, you know, the people out there, in, in the state; the people out there in your communities, you know. They’re having a hard time buying ‘the straight face test,’ on this one, at this point. And, you know, I appreciate the job makers, the job creators, like you know, people, people need jobs. You know? Ummm…how, how they do that and how they maintain their business and how they do that, you know, a lot of that is up to them; and I can’t make judgment decisions for them. O.K.? I might not make the same one. I’m not here, to, to, to give anybody grief about that. Ummm…but, it…when you’re talking about taxpayer dollars, our dollars, and they’re limited, and I know that. They’re getting even more and more limited. And, you know, you’ve heard it talked about, this whole idea, of, or, ‘Peak oil.’ And I, you know, I don’t believe, I’m some crazy here…conspiracy theorist. You know what I mean? I don’t!
But the fact is, I have a hard time investing more and more money , into what I eventually see…and we can talk about how long that takes. Maybe it takes 100 years? Maybe it takes 200 years? Maybe it takes 300 years? I don’t care! The fact is, at some point, that stuff’s gone. And, you know, there was somebody who spoke earlier about, you know…we got to, we got to look at it a new way. Paradigms shift, you know, in time. And unfortunately, maybe good for me, that’s you guys now. You know what I mean? You got, you guys have the policy of committee. You get to make policy. The decisions you make right here say, ‘We as the transportation committee, make policy.’ If your policy is, ‘We’re going t spend $300,000 of your money, to pay, ah, to pay for a feasibility study on this,’ that’s not the policy decision I would make. I appreciate your time. Thank you very much. If you have any questions…”
Senator Collins : “Any questions of Mr. Pratt? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony.”
Benjamin : “Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “Any additional testimony in opposition? Seeing none. Any testimony.”
Christine (Inaudible Last Name.)
Senator Collins : “Any additional testimony in opposition? Seeing none, Any testimony…Welcome.”
Christine : “Hello.”
Senator Collins : “State your name please.”
Christine : “Ummm…my name is Christine…” (Inaudible on the last name. It was not said clearly enough.)
Senator Collins : “And you testimony is in opposition?”
Christine : “Yes.”
Senator Collins : “O.K.. I didn’t catch your last name.”
Christine : “Christine…(Note to readers, sounds like Bagleary, or Bag O’Leary, but couldn’t catch it. Not even sure if her name is spelled Christine or Kristine to be honest.)
Senator Collins : “O.K..”
Christine : “Ummm…so I did not come here prepared to give any kind of testimony; but I’ve been very inspired. So, Ummm…given enthusiasm and other particularizes, that can be, I’m nervous, Ummm…and feeling pretty much…(Last word said too fast to translate.) Ummm…so, I’m from Southern Maine. Umm…and for, Ummm…a very long time, most of my adult life, Ummm…(pause.) the only thing that had made sense to me is farming. I’ve wanted to do that for a very long time. And Ummm…I have been a…(pause.) I had to figure out, how, how, how, to actually, get to the more rural parts of Maine and, and make that happen. Ummm…because of money issues/ transportation issues. Ummm…and what I really feel the need to tell you all, right now, is that: If there was a big huge, ‘East-West Highway,’ going through Somerset County…which is not where I want to farm, but let’s say, let’s say it was, that would not have helped me get there. It would not provide me, any more of an opportunity to be a small farmer in Somerset County! And so this, ‘East-West Highway,’ may provide certain kinds of jobs. It may provide jobs in construction. It may provide jobs in the, Ummm…in the Ummm…gas stations, that are now going to, have to be built, to accommodate this, and maybe jobs for Canadian truckers. Ummm…but for me, or someone who wants to be a small farmer, it does not create that opportunity for me. And so, I believe that this, ‘East-West Highway,’ is, is pushing an…(Hiccup.) Only a certain kind of (Hiccup.) economic opportunity; Ummm…for folks in the area, that it would be going through.
Ummm…(Pause.) furthermore, at a time when social services are being pretty devastated in this state, Ummm…it seems ridiculous to spend this amount of money, Ummm…to do a feasibility project. Ummm…and this is something that, like Sonia, Ummm…has real affect in my life. Ummm…I’m someone who, because of the Federal work that I’ve done, for my adult life, have not had health care for ten years. Ummm…I have a father who is disabled, And Ummm…because he has a house, he’s not able to be on Maine Care. He’s only able to have $17. a month on food stamps. Ummm…he’s supporting my brother. They, Ummm…have to go to the food bank. They often run out of food. Ummm…they often run out of oil, Ummm…and wood, for their wood stove. And, Ummm…my brother, Ummm…gets two meals a day for free at school, and if he did not get (Taps podium three times.) those meals. Ummm…my Dad would be in trouble.
So to, (Short pause.) to think about $300,000. at this time going to…to fund a project, Ummm…such as this; that only provides a certain type of economic opportunity, for Ummm…people who are living rurally, Ummm…I think is outlandish. And Ummm….lastly, I would just like to say that, the community…I now live in Unity, and, Ummm…even though I’m, ah, just beginning to build relationships in this community; I can safely say that, Ummm…the community that…of small farmers and, and, Ummm…people participating in rural life in my community have no interest in having these kinds of, Ummm…. This kind of highway and, and Ummm…these kinds of economic opportunities in the area. If they were to, to go through the area.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions? ( Drums both hands on table.) Seeing none, thank you for your testimony. Any additional testimony in opposition to L.D. 1671? Seeing none, any testimony neither for nor against L.D. 1671?”
Doug Papa
Senator Collins: “…Is there any additional testimony in opposition to L.D. 1671? Seeing none. Any testimony neither for nor against L.D. 1671? Sir, step forward and announce you name please.”
Doug Papa : “My name is Doug Papa and, ah, the reason why I’m recording all of this for all of you wondering is, I , I write…I’ve been writing an online series for an online magazine, about the Occupy Augusta Interviews. And the reason why I’m here at this meeting is, ah, this issue has been brought up a couple of times, by one of the people, I’ve been following. I’ve been following five people. If you want to view the interviews online, you can go to Big Time Music Trade . com. Click on articles…(Note to readers, directions said, dealt with when I posted the Occupy Interviews originally on ArchEnemys online magazine, before re-posting them on Big Time Music Trade .com.)
The reason why I’m in front of this meeting is: there was an issue that’s related to a current highway. It’s probably going to be related to this proposed highway, highway bill. Now, ah, right now, Bath Salts are illegal in Maine. And we have a lot of out-of-state container trucks going up the Juniper Ridge Landfill. And now all of a sudden, Bangor has an explosion of Bath Salts. Two pounds of Bath Salt/ Two and a half pounds of Bath Salts is worth like $170,000. My concern with this ‘East-West Highway,’ is, - I’m not for it. I’m not against it. I just have one concern. And that concern is: If this highway is going to link the Maine Maritime Providences, in which we’re going have a lot of out-of-country international trans-ships coming into Canada. Going into, ah, the highway system into” Canada, and it’s going to be going through Maine.
So, it’s going to bypass a lot of Canadian Highways. I guess about 2 hours worth. How is going to be law enforcement on this proposed highway going to be enforced on the Canadian trucks? I know that online, there’s been a lot of issues, about electronically sealed containers. So, if it enters the Port of Maine at Calais, they don’t have to be re-opened until it leaves Maine. Until it reaches Montreal. My concern is illegal drugs being shipped into those containers, and one of those points of entry along the highway. Or those on/off ramps and one of those communities, all of a sudden, miraculously being overrun by illegal substances; such as Bath Salts or other things. If” we’re going to have this study, I strongly urge the committee to put a stipulation on the points that I’m bringing up today.
Now, I don’t mean to bore you. I really know that you folks are busy. But, ah, I know Senator Douglas Thomas seems like he’s a little bored. But I’m not going to…”
(People in room chuckle.)
“I’m not going to focus on it. What I’m going to focus on is, how illegal drugs or illegal substances are going to come through Maine. Possibly get dropped off in Maine, and how that’s going to affect the residents of Maine. Beyond the economic ‘up-bring,’ or, ah, ‘down-wind,’ that this, ‘East-West Highway,’ could bring to the residents of Maine. Now, ah, I see Senator Collins is a little concern with Senator Bill Diamond; so I’ll just end it here and say: Is there any questions from the committee?”
Senator Collins : “Any questions?”
(People in room start laughing.)
Senator Collins : “Seeing none, thank you for your testimony.”
Doug : “Sure.”
Senator Collins : “Any additional testimony? Is this not in opposition? Neither for nor against?”
(Laughing stops for the next speaker.)
Bob Net
Senator Collins : “Any additional testimony? Sir. Is this in opposition or neither for nor against?”
(Note to readers : Laughter in room finally dies down.)
Bob : “Neither for no against anything. Well…”
Senator Collins : “Announce your name please.”
Bob : “Bob Net. You can figure out whether it’s for or against, after I’m done, I guess.”
(Chuckles break out on audience side.)
Senator Collins : “O.K., seeing to this.”
Bob : “Uh, yeah. Uh. First of all, I would like to say, I think there’s one Representative here from the Valley. (Pause.) And most of what I have to say, I exempt the Valley from it. Which…
(Will Neils chuckles, distinctly in audience.)
Ummm…I’m, I’m against this, because it’s a total waste of money. I’m for it, because, it’s a symptom of : for 30 years trying to solve the ‘two Maine problem.’ And so is aid to schools and aid to town and all the rest of it. And, that was begun, by private Liberal Republicans; we use to have those, and ah, Democrats, probably 30 years ago, as I recall. I don’t know. Senator Katz’s Dad. Before that, there really wasn’t state aid to education. All the money being funneled from Southern Maine into Northern Maine, we call this a Central Maine, ‘East-West highway.’ Well Central Maine economically is probably 20 feet north of Portland.
(Light laughter in audience, by one person.)
Central, Central Maine demographically, I’m not sure, but I bet it’s around Bowdoinham. O.K.? So…without any doubt, any thinks, south of Augusta is in a different kind of Maine. Anyway, we ship…We have shipped Billions of dollars, of taxpayers’ money, including low income people, North and East; and to Lyman, but that’s another story.
(Chuckles in audience.)
Ah, and what we’ve gotten back for 30 years is, things really haven’t gotten better up there; And also what we’ve gotten back is…folks up there, have elected a bunch of people, that go like this, to all the rest of us. And that mean, and that mean, ah, and let me, ah.”
Senator Collins : “What, what, what your testimony, and ah.”
Bob : “yeah, all I’m saying is, I’m asking you to look ahead.”
Senator Collins : “I’m going to address you sir.”
Bob : “O.K., yeah.”
Senator Collins : “And the hearing from you , right now is.”
Bob : “Yeah.”
Senator Collins : “You seem to be rambling, and not staying to the point. Either you are for or against this particular Legislation. So, get to the point and let’s hear your testimony.”
Bob : “I’m against shipping more money North. And I think if you keep doing it, you’re going to wind up with an initiative referendum, that regionalizes county wise, set’s the gas tax. Instead of a state gas tax. (Pause.) And everybody will look at me and say, ‘He’s nuts.’ But, gas tax is maybe 30 cents. I see 5 cents for the interstate and then it would be up to each county what they want they want to do on top of that. And I think people in Southern Maine are going to love it. So, you can pass this, but I think your reinforcing…(Long pause.) the impression of people in Southern Maine, and people in Central Maine that…you’re just taking more and more from them and shipping it out. And you can do that, if you want to. I’m just trying to give you. ‘heads up.’ Same thing is going to happen to school aid. Thank you very much.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions? Seeing none. Thank you. Any additional testimony neither for nor against L.D. 1671? Please announce your name before the ‘Mic’, please.”
Denise Pantella
Denise : “My name is Denise Pantella, I live in Kennebunk Maine. I propose that the 12 people who testified in favor of this study, that they get together and for it themselves. I would caution them and I suspect it would cost a lot more than $300,000.”
Senator Collins : “Can you put the ‘Mic,’ down just a little bit closer to your…ther you go.”
Denise : “I propose that the 12 people who testified.”
Senator Collins : (Says something way too fast to translate.)
Denise : (Laughs.) “That they get together and pay for it themselves. I would caution them that I suspect it will cost more than $300,000. And I think the state has no right squandering away $300,000 for corporate profit…Profiteers. Thank you.”
Senator Collins : “That’s your, that’s your testimony?”
Denise : “That’s right.”
Senator Collins : “Any questions? Seeing none, Thank you. Any additional testimony, neither for nor against L.D. 1671? Seeing none. (Gavel hit’s high pitched base.) That concludes the public hearing on L.D. 1671.”
Will Neils Interview
Q : “I’m speaking to Will Neils. He’s going to make a statement about what just took place at the Committee, the public hearing committee.”
A : “Yeah, I think we just heard very clearly, there were approximately 12 people that spoke in support. They were all representatives of business groups, trade organizations, Ummm…specifically lobby groups for big business. Ummm…some of them stand directly, because their companies, ah, like Peter Vigue, stand directly to benefit from it. Ummm…some just spoke for industry wide Lobbyist groups. Like construction as such. But, ah, you know, we didn’t hear from one citizen, who wasn’t being paid to be there to speak today in favor of this. And clearly, we didn’t have one representative who spoke against it. And we didn’t have one citizen who spoke for this proposal, and there were a lot, there were more people who spoke against it, than spoke for it, this resolution. We didn’t have one of the citizens, stand up and point out, that they were being paid to be there. So, I think we had a pretty clear contrast today, in between the circumstances. Between a citizen lobbying force, that was here and trying hard to articulate our voices, and then a business lobby force, that was clearly, obviously being paid and clearly articulating their needs as they saw them. And so, you know, I mean, it’s the classic contrast we have here in Augusta. The difference between the people , with ‘big money,’ who can hire other members of the working community in Maine to fight against the people in their communities. It’s that simple.”
Q : “Now you stated that this has been floated around since the Roosevelt Administration. Do you think there’s any consequence between the, ah, the power grids getting upgraded to export energy outside the state of Maine, and the timing of the proposed ‘East-West Highway’?”
A : “I think it’s, I think, you know, there are a lot of different suggestions they’re having now to working in conjunction. I think one of the challenges that we face, right now, is trying to put this, ah, you know, in a real approach. I wonder, why it is, we in Maine are being asked to fund something, which is clearly only internationally beneficial. It’s going to be Canadian companies. Ah, you know, potentially trans-national shipping companies which will benefit from this. I don’t see how it’s going to affect our state in a positive way, or our citizens in a positive way. So, therefore I question, really the value of those people being able to influence our Legislature, Ummm…towards these ends. I think it’s totally reprehensible and, ah, I really hope that the people who are responsible for it are held accountable.”
A : “And those people, being held account…ah, responsible, would be?”
A : “Well, clearly in business Pete Vigue. But I think, you know, obviously Representative Thomas, Ummm…is, you know, is sponsoring legislation and I have high hopes his constitute base will be concerned and appalled by his support of this. And will hold him accountable, Ummm…possibly in the next election, so.”
Q : “Now how did you feel about being cut off in middle of your speech there, by the Chairman of the committee?”
A : “I…I felt like the Senator actions were, ah, just reflective of a general culture of fear and siege. Which, ah, apparently the politicians and the staff which work here in the Statehouse, are currently suffering under. Ah, we’ve seen the, ah, allocation of a half a million dollars in taxpayer funds to, ah, to fund a, ah, metal detector/searching machine. Which is here to the entrance of the Capital. Which is only sporadically functional. Ah, today it misfired when the metal hit on me. I walked back through and it didn’t hit. I hadn’t moved anything out of my pockets. It just was, ah…it was just, ah, it was just, ah, ah, ah, a malfunction of the machinery. To me, ahmm, the recent, it’s all in the last few weeks, development of the metal detectors. Ummm…the general culture of rear. Hiring former Homeland security officers to work s metal detector associates, former Federal employees. It’s just an example of the basic, ‘siege mentality.’ Which we see manifest itself in the political community, within the State house. I think it’s very sad, and I think it really speaks more than anything to the mentality of the people who actually work within this building. It’s really unfortunate. I as a citizen have always felt it was one of the important parts of my responsibility, as being born and raised in Maine to participate in the process, the democratic process here. And of course it’s just ah…(clears throat.) it’s just, it’s just sad to see politicians and security forces, which are operating in a state of fear, and apparently, clearly are in a state of ‘siege mentality.’ I believe it’s an example of a lack of maturity and lack of insight which will likely be politically painful for them in the long term.”
Q : “Now speaking of a ‘lack of maturity.’ Did you see how some of the, ah, committee members were smirking, when the people were speaking against this? Did you think that was some sort of ‘Psych-Ops,’ Psychological Operations, to try discourage people to continue on with their comments against/oppose to this?”
A : “ I don’t know if it was…I don’t know if the Representatives and Senators smirking was specifically intended to ‘quash,’ discussion. I…I think probably more than anything was, ah, just them letting out their personal feelings. You know, I mean, they’re heavily dependent on the transportation situation. All members of the transportation committee, Ummm… they all get ‘wined and dined,’ buy Pete Vigue and all the rest of these Lobbyist on a consistent basis. Of course because they’re constantly in bed with these companies. Sergeant, Cianbro, all of them. And so, to me it’s not a surprise. It was just more of a reflection of their own personal attitude. Seeing how that they already have vested interest. They already have specific opinion developed about this bill. And the public hearing, was really just a means to an end, so that they would have the opportunity to vote on this initiative, this, ah, resolution and move forward. I think it…I don’t necessarily think it was intended to stifle the discussion. I don’t think that the discussion mattered in their eyes. So it was just, the smirking was probably reflective of their general contempt for the citizens voice.”
Q : “So, in other words, because of this ‘wining/dining Lobbyist, and no end ‘smooshing,’ that this bill will probably get pass…this emergency pat will get passed. And the state will be out $300,000, once again for an ‘East-West,’ proposed highway?”
A : “Well, traditionally, this type of a ‘boon doggal,’ is what receives exclusive support from the transportation committee and the whole situation. It always seems like it’s exactly what they want. So it would be totally in keeping with ah…it would be totally in keeping with, ah, the traditional behavior of the committee members if that’s what we have here. So I have no reason to believe it wouldn’t pass. Ahmm, exclusively it would be the voice of the citizens, ‘piping up,’ and bringing reality into the discussion. Which I would end up bollixing up the successful works that Mr. Vigue has set up…to…”
Q : “What was that word you said? Valexing?”
A : “’Bollixing up the works.’ You know, the works which Mr. Vigue has set up. I’m sure he’s optimistic about passing this burden onto the tax payer. But of course, you know, really his whole company is based in tax payer profiteering. You know I mean, if Vigue didn’t have public works projects for his company, there’s no way it would be as large as it is today. It’s that simple, so.”
Q : “Now are you surprised, even though his company is not involved with road building, that he’s trying to get investors and back this project up?”
A : “Ah, Vigue…Vigues’ is involved in everything, that involves construction in the State of Maine. So it’s sort of disingenuous form him to claim he’s not involved in some kind of road building. I mean, you know?”
Q : “So, that statement he made about not…”
A : “I think, that, ‘we don’t build roads,’ I mean, I don’t know how that’s possible. They do projects everywhere. They do all kinds of different projects. I mean, that’s what they do, is that they build stuff. So, I…I find it disingenuous for him to claim that they don’t build roads. You know, that’s like…yeah. I mean they build a lot of things, including roads, so. But who knows? That’s…”
Q : “So, do you think this “East-West Highway,’ is going to be going through?”
A : “There’s no way in hell.”
Q : “What do you think is going to stop it?”
A : “Oh, that’s simple. The same thing that’s always stopped this kind of alleged progress: The people of the State of Maine.”
Q : “Well, I mean…I mean years ago, I mean, not to play ‘Devil’s advocate,’ but you know, years ago people were more politically active. But now-a-days, they’re distracted between like, ‘Face book,’ and online games, and the ‘Farmville,’ and everything else. That they seem like little children. And not like even responsible adults trying to take a stand on issues that are important. That’s why, you know, they might be a little hypnotized, to ah, not take a stand. I mean, wouldn’t you agree with that?”
A : “I think usually traditionally in this state, people don’t take stands, because they either A) Don’t know what’s going on, or they don’t believe their voice matters. I think that’s one of the biggest uphill struggles we have right now. As a community in Maine, is we need to change the way that this culture and this community thinks about itself. We have to restore to the citizens of this state, the recognition that their voices, their opinions and their perspective do matter. And are actually critically necessary for a legitimate democracy to function. And, so, where we’re at right now, I think is, the simple fact that Vigue and the rest of the people from, you know, The Department of Transportation, their old school planners. –Like John Melrose and some of the other people, we’ve already defeated on more than on different project before. Melrose was, the prevailer of Sears Island too, and that got kicked down. So you know, you have to remember it’s not like the first time those people have seen some of us, and it’s not that this is the first time we’ve seen some of them. We know what’s starting. They know what’s starting. That’s why I told them, ‘Get ready, you’re going to be in it for the long haul and it’s going to be an endurance. So you better get ready.’ And that’s the point. That’s what happened. We did this with Plum Creek. We did it with Sears Island. Right up against the D.O.T., and we’re do it with this. It just, that this time, instead of it being a small community in one place of the state, well, we’ve probably got a whole swath right across the middle to organize. So, I guess that’s the best chance I’ve had yet, to get Mainers together.”
Q : “So do you think that, like use of the Internet is probably going to work in your favor, because you got more access to more people that’s going to be affected by this?”
A : “I personally don’t use the internet, but I assume at least some of the people here in the coalition will be. Yeah, one would suspect. I think that’s how they got a lot of the word out about the rally today.”
Q : “Right. Well, like, the ah, I got a business card right here, because it was announced in the paper. The ah, the first time I’ve heard about it was the ‘Defending Water for Life.’”
A : “Yeap, yeap.”
Q : “That, I guess, according what I’ve heard from people, was started totally on the Internet and they had a huge amount of people just join their group.”
A : “Well, it’s a big, it’s a big thing. That group has been fighting the privatization of the water sources in the State of Maine for years. And we’ve been fighting the opportunity for companies to come if from Europe, from outside of our country, purchase water bottling plants, which are here in Maine. Which are established Maine companies, and then proceed to take that either bottle or in raw form. Because the simple reality is, people have this illusion that water processing is, ‘everything gets put into a bottle.’ It’s not true. With the way that they move things now in this world, you can pull a Tanker up to the edge of a freaking, you know, a water pipeline. I mean, people think that all the pipelines that get built in the State of Maine are going to be for Oil. People need to get in tune with the fact, that there’s going to be water pipelines, if we let these ‘scum bags,’ succeed. And they ain’t going to be bringing us water. They are going to be taking our water and taking it to places like Europe and other places around the world. Where they haven’t been able to actually be good stewards of their environment. Where they destroyed their natural resource base, or possibly they’re exceeded the population base capacity of their land. And so now, they’re in the process of becoming ‘profiteers,’ and going around the world, and taking things that others need. Like our water. So, that’s when you get down to it, Defending Water for Life, has an organization which develops specifically because of that.”
Q : “ So in other words, hypothetically speaking, if this, ‘East-West Highway,’ cuts a swath through the forest, then they can ‘piggy-back,’ on that and say, ‘Well we don’t have to cut the forest.’”
A : “It’s also a communications and energy corridor. And a resource corridor. Well, water is a resource…in their eyes. It’s that simple.”
Q : “And the gravel too, for the ah, coal plants? (Note to readers: wood pellets for their coal plants. Gravel to repave their roads. See the Jim Freeman interview before the Department of Transportation public hearing.)
A : “And gravel, sure of course. But that they’ll put on the trucks. But the point is it’s the division: communications, energy and resource corridor. And what that means, is they want pipelines with it. You get me?”
Q : “Yup, Yup.”
A : “There we go baby!”
Q : “What do you mean by communications through? I mean, they going to have like telephone lines going through this too?”
A : “You’d have to ask Pete Vigue. He’s the one that keeps claiming communication.”
Q : “I can’t even get Pete Vigue’s as…get pass Pete Vigue’s assistant. Because I missed part one through four of his power point presentation, and I just want to get this record straight.”
A : “That’s…you know it’s tough with Vigue. I can’t get him to stand still long enough to spit in his face. But you know, we’ve all got dreams Doug. So what can you do?” (Laughs.)
Q : “O.K.. Well I know you got to rush. Because you got to meet your friends.”
A : “Thank you very much. I appreciate that.”
E mail from Hillary Lister
> Hi Doug,
>
> LD 879, the bill to lift the ban on commercial dump expansions and
> allow expansion of the Norridgewock Waste Management dump, is going to
> vote on the Floor of the House of Representatives THIS Thursday.
>
> Please contact representatives and media and inform them how this will
> overturn over 20 years of policy, set precedent to open Maine up to
> more commercial dumps and out of state waste, and benefit one company
> at the expense of Maine communities.
>
> Democratic legislators Representative Bob Duschesne of Old Town and
> Senator Seth Goodall (along with Republican
> Chair Saviello) are really pushing this bill, and many Dems who might
> otherwise oppose this bill are looking to them for guidance.
> The mantra of supporters seems to be that, following the recent DEP
> Public Benefit determination for Casella dump expansion, this will
> "Level the Playing Field" and "Prevent Monopoly."
>
> Let them know that two wrongs don't make a right, the Casella
> expansion is being challenged, and rushing approval for this will set
> very bad policy, threatens the Kennebec and Sandy River watersheds,
> and opens Maine up to more out-of-state waste.
>
> Please pass this on to anyone who might be interested.
>
> An info sheet is attached.
>
> Please don't hesitate to contact me with any questions.
>
> - Hillary Lister
> 314-4692
> ---
>
> A more complete history of how LD 879 came to be:
>
>
> A History of LD 879, The Norridgewock Dump, and Out of State Waste
>
> August 15, 1989
> Morning Sentinel reports “Earth Opens, stench rises”
> Norridgewock dump, at the time owned by CWS, collapses under weight of
> out-of-state waste,
> doubles size of dump from 12 to 25 acreas.
> Neighboring farms close down following contamination of streams and groundwater.
>
> The location of the Norridgewock dump is very problematic, being
> located on clay in a river valley surrounded by streams and wetlands.
> The collapse of the dump covered 1400 feet of a tributary and the
> drainageway of Mill stream, leading to the Kennebec River.
>
> The landfill currently contains municipal solid waste, sewage,
> municipal incinerator ash, oil waste, asbestos, pulp and paper sludge,
> metal hydroxide sludge, coal, oil and biomass ash, and biomedical
> waste. Currently, the DEP does not conduct any regular testing at the
> Norridgewock landfill (just random sampling), and relies on Waste
> Management to provide all water quality and other pollution data.
>
> Following this dumpslide, and responding to concerns over increasing
> amounts of out-of-state waste being dumped in Maine, the legislature
> passed a series of changes to Maine's Solid Waste laws in 1989.
>
> The State was told that it couldn't place limits on how much
> out-of-state waste commercial landfills import, due to the Federal
> Interstate Commerce Clause, which considers commercial waste to be an
> item of commerce, and does not allow states to place restrictions on
> trade across state lines.
> Instead, attorneys advised the state to operate landfills itself, and
> then it could restrict trash to only Maine generated waste. This later
> led to the 2003 creation of the state-owned, Casella-operated dump in
> Old Town.
>
> At the same time as the 1989 law changes, a buyer was being sought to
> take over the collapsed CWS dump in Norridgewock. In 1990 the State of
> Maine authorized the sale of the dump to Waste Management Inc, the
> largest waste corporation in the country. Waste Management purchased
> the dump under the agreement that it would not expand beyond the
> permitted footprint at the time, as part of an effort to control out
> of state waste.
>
> Ten years later, Waste Management lobbyists succeeded in introducing
> an amendment to waste legislation, LD 760, to lift the 1989 ban on
> commercial dump expansions, so that the WM dump (and only that dump)
> in Norridgewock could expand. Incidentally, the land they are looking
> to expand onto is owned by the brother-in-law of the manager of the
> dump.
>
> That legislation went through several hearings, a special session was
> even held in the summer at tax payer expense, and legislators
> concluded that expansion was not necessary to meet Maine waste needs,
> it would prioritize landfilling over reduction, reuse, recycling, or
> composting, and would benefit only one company.
>
> The WM expansion came back in the form of its own bill, LD 879, the
> next year. It was again concluded that the expansion was not a wise
> idea.
>
> In February 15, 2012, the Committee on Environment and Natural
> Resources introduced amendments to Waste Management's LD 879. The
> changes provided promises of potential community benefits but did
> nothing to address the problems created by promoting this dump
> expansion. At the hearing, neighbors to the WM dump argued that the
> amendments were being used to hide the real purpose of the bill, the
> dump expansion.
>
> The amended bill passed out of committee that day, with no Public
> Hearing on the new changes, after almost 4 years of being rejected,
> and with many legislators who had opposed it in the past voting in
> favor, with a split vote.
>
> The justification for the change of heart? On January 31st, the DEP
> had given a Public Benefit approval for expansion of the State-owned,
> Casella-operated JRL dump in Old Town. While that dump had originally
> been limited to only Maine generated waste, after getting the
> operating contract, Casella lobbyists succeeded in changing the
> definition of Maine generated waste to include any waste “processed”
> in Maine. As a result, massive amounts of out of state waste have been
> able to be “processed” at incinerators and sorting facilities, with
> some materials removed to be recycled or incinerated, and major
> amounts of waste being sent as “bypass” to the State-owned JRL dump.
>
> As a result, Casella has been able to effectively operate JRL as a
> commercial landfill and import significant amounts of out of state
> waste. Instead of addressing the problem of out-of-state waste being
> defined as Maine waste, legislators decided it would “level the
> playing field” with Casella to grant Waste Management its change in
> the law to allow dump expansion in Norridgewock.
>
> Instead of leveling the playing field, LD 879 would simply open up
> more of Maine to another out-of-state waste corporation.
> The real effect will be to open up two dumps to more out of state
> waste, and not deal with the problem that waste is being landfilled
> that could otherwise be reused, recycled, and composted, and a create
> a profit incentive to import more out of state waste to Maine.
>
> There is a minority report by Rep Walsh-Innes that adopts the new
> language to protect
> communities hosting dumps, without promoting dump expansion.
> That amendment can be viewed at:
> http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/bills/bills_125th/billtexts/HP064603.asp
>
> LD 879 goes to a vote on the floor of the House of Representatives
> this Thursday, March 15, sometime after 10am.
>
> Please contact representatives and media and inform them how this will
> overturn over 20 years of policy, set precedent to open Maine up to
> more commercial dumps and out of state waste, and benefit one company
> at the expense of Maine communities.
Richard C. Roy (Or Sounds like that name on the tape recording.)
Senator Tom Saviello : “Next…(Pause.) Don’t be shy. Because I’ll just move onto work session.”
(Members of the Committee laugh.)
Richard : “Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen…Chairmen Saviello and Mr. Duchesne. I’m Richard C. Roy. I have the advantage of most of you folks. I can see, smell and hear the brush roads and landfill from my back porch; and I’ve been opposed to it since the beginning, in 1975. I remain that way. If you can appreciate that. I have (Long Pause.) revisions, and to these revisions I have apprehensions. If this is going to continue to allow Waste Management…If these amendments are going to allow Waste Management, to expand, beyond the footprint that it…that was present in 1989, it, it should not happen. Waste Manager came her in order to correct the collapse of the C.W.S. Landfill. They have done that. To what advantage to everyone remains to be seen. Now,…(Long Pause.) If you cannot understand what the impact, in over 30 years of Landfill activity; is to us, who are adjacent to it…(Pause.) then you can’t understand what it means…(Pause.) to be ‘sucker punched.’ If you ever have been. I don’t know what. Believe me, if you can’t conduct the State’s business, without ‘sucker punching,’ a pair of 80 year old…80 year olds, as my folks were…(pause.) then you don’t understand anything.”
Senator Tom Saviello : “You, you have some suggested amendments, that you, or are you basically saying, your against any future expansions?”
Richard : “I’m saying: ‘If these amendments, (taps podium twice.) allow Waste Management to continue expanding, beyond the 1989 footprint, then it should not be allowed.”
Senator Tom Saviello : “O.K.. That’s what I need to clarify. Do you have any questions?”
Richard : (Cutting in just in time.) “The one other…”
Senator Tom Saviello : “O.K., good.”
Richard : “One other little. Years ago I worked for a contractor out of Bingham. If your familiar with the area. He lived on the Goodridge road, and his wife had lived there; and their family had lived there since, ‘The Exodus,’ I guess. But at any rate…the fellow I worked for died; and I went to visit the lady. I introduced myself she did hardly remember me, as a member of ‘Harrys’ crew.’ But nevertheless, had a little conversation. (Pause.) I told her that my father had worked, on Construction of Wyman Dam. Here’s this lady, past 90 years old. I mentioned the Dam. (Pause.) the fire in her eyes, after 80 years, told me, that resentment cannot die.”
Senator Tom Saviello : “Questions? Wait a minute. O.K…. Representative Ayotte. Wait, wait, wait sir. Excuse me, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait…”
Doug Papa : (Sitting next to podium and microphone.) “He’s got a question for you.”
Senator Tom Saviello : “We got a question. Representative Ayotte has a question for you. Go right back up to the ‘Mic,’ open.”
Richard : “Yeah?”
Representative Ayotte : “Good Lord, I’ve been through a lot of cross roads in my life, but I’ve never been to that one. Can you give us some examples, of what you’re getting at? It’s been a little Nebulas for me.”
Richard : “Well, I’ve been telling it for 30 years; to these various Boards and Panels.”
Representative Ayotte : “Well could you tell…”
Richard : “O.K..”
Representative Ayotte : “…me?”
Richard : “I will. (Shuffles papers near microphone.) In 1984, on investigation of the groundwater beneath the landfill.” (Note to readers: it sounds like he said something like: “Cross Woods, Landfill.” Possible name before Waste Management took it over.) “They discovered, or suspected, a hydraulic connection; between the groundwater beneath the landfill and our farm. We did not know, e were not notified for three years that the possibility, (Pause.) of that. They had no proof. Just a suspicion: That our well was interfering with their tests procedures.”
Representative Ayotte : “Then their well was interfering with your well. They’re leaching within the…”
Richard : “No. Our well was influencing their testing.”
Representative Ayotte : “O.K., what else?”
Senator Tom Saviello : (Clears throat.) “Let me remind you guys, that we’re dealing with is the amendment.”
Richard : “O.K..”
Senator Tom Saviello : “Not, not, the history of the landfill.”
Richard : “He asked the questions.”
Senator Tom Saviello : I know. You, you’re doing fine, but I’m just reminding Representative Ayotte, that we’re dealing with amendments. So the question around the amendment…”
Representative Ayotte: “O.K.. Well, I figured you’re frustrated, I just want to know why you’re frustrating. That’s, that’s O.K..”
Richard : “After 30 years of dealing with the thing, you, you might be able to understand. I don’t know. (Long pause.) Any other questions?”
Senator Tom Saviello : “Thank you very much.”
Richard : “O.K..”
Senator Tom Saviello : “Anybody else who would like to comment?”
Unidentified Woman
Unidentified Woman : “Thank you Mr. Chairman, Vice Chairman, members of this Committee, for the opportunity to speak to you today. Regarding the amendments to. (Clears throat.) that were produced regarding supposedly L.D. 879. 23 years have gone by, since the 1989 law was passed. Nothing has been done. Other than bring forth the L.D. 879, to allow one corporation to expand. And then, the smoke screen comes, with the amendments. I’m not saying the amendments are bad. There are some good things in there. But, to use them as a smokescreen, and to be devious; in order to get L.D. 879 passed, is (Slaps the table.) wrong. This committee needs to look at the issue of the solid waste problem, and they need to do something about it. And not use the lowest thing on the Higher Archy list, and hide behind these amendments. I can spend here at almost every meeting…I don’t have to walk into any meeting in this Statehouse and start to introduce myself, but people say: ‘Oh! We know who you are!’ Yes, because I’ve been here, and I’ve been here, and I’ve told my story over and over again. I don’t want sympathy. I just want you people to be, (Hits table this time.) upfront, and (Note to readers: increased volume indicates she leaned forward to look the Committee in the eyes. Then the sound of both hands resting at the table at same time.) to be honest. And, (Finger hitting table.) not (Again with the finger.) to use these amendments. Which again, I’m not saying, ‘are not good,’ because there are some good things in here. But, do not use them be ( Note to readers: Next word sounds like it is pronounced: Gavy-ant.) to get the 19…the 8 mile, L.D. 879 passed. You should not be passing it for person…One corporation.
The other thing I would like to see, if you asked at that point, is: ‘Where, are those of us…’ I’m not talking every abutter. But, I’ve asked over and over and over again, that, ‘those of us who live with this 24/7 who had it imposed upon us, let’s put an amendment in there that we are taken care of.’ That we are compensated, such as the state and such as the town. You people can pass this bill tonight, and go home and forget about it. The only thing you do is, you go home, take your garbage, you put it out and it comes to Norridgewock. Those of us who live with it, my husband and I, every piece of our property abuts it’s facility, if this is passed. We lived on the premise for…ever…for since 1989, this would not happen. But, please, my point is, do not use these amendments, which anybody could tell you, by looking at them…And I look around this room and see people who are far more educated than I am. But, to look at these amendments they’re totally a separate bill, from 1989. Make it such and pass them, and do what you want to, with L.D. 879. But, please if you’re going to put amendments on, take into consideration, those who are affected the most. Thank you.”
Senator Tom Saviello : “Questions if any? Thank you very much. Next.”
Kevin Roche
Kevin Roche:
“Senator Saviello, Representative Hamper and distinguished members, Ahhh… of this fine committee. I come before you today to address, Ahhhmmm…and thank you for the opportunity to, Ah…address the proposed amendment to the public benefit determination statue as part of L.D. 879. And I do support mister Lounders amendment to that admendment.
Ahhhmmm…my name is Kevin Roche and I’m the General Manager of Eco-Maine. If…if you’re not familiar with Eco-Maine, we are a quazi municipal, non-for-profit organization. Ah, most of our facilities are located in Portland. Ummm…we have three facilities, ah…a waste to energy plant. Ah, a single sort recycling plant and a, ahhh…Ummm…a, an ash landfill. Ummm…we…we landfill both trash and ash, at our landfill. However all of thee, Ahhh…raw and (Note to readers: “astebu,” is what the next word sounds like.) that we take to our landfill, we remove, bring it back to the waste energy facility and…and process it, Ahhhmmm, so that, ah, no waste is no raw waste is left in the landfill. We have 72 full time employees and we have a budget of about 25 million dollars. Last year I testified on L.D. 879, or as I said then, I continued to be very concerned about our expansion of landfills. Ummm…the landfill in…the…theee…Ummm…thee…the problem with landfills isn’t that it’s a storage strategy for managing waste. And I don’t think any of us want to see Ummm… Ah… more and more waste, Ahhh… stored in…in our… in our state. If we continue to expand our landfills, we will degredate the importance of the waste hierarchy. And Ummm… the state of Maine has…has a good hierarchy in place. And that hierarchy is the same hierarchy that thee E.P.A. has adopted. It is also the same hierarchy that many other states have adopted and the reason why everyone has adopted the same hierarchy is because it’s working. And guess what’s at the bottom…very bottom…of that hierarchy. And guess what we’re spending so much time on, is expanding landfills in the state of Maine and that really disturbs me, and I think it disturbs me, and I think it disturbs many of us.
There is a place for landfills. We own and we operate a landfill. But only waste that is necessary, that can’t be composted, that can’t be combusted should end up in a landfill; stored in a landfill in the state of Maine. If we continue to expand the landfills in our state we will start to degredate our recycling efforts that we’ve worked so hard to improve over the last 20 years. In…in…in our communities, last year, we recycled 36,000 tons of materials; that were taken out of the waste stream and put into the recycling stream. If we continue to expand our landfills we will degredate the initial investments that were beginning to see made in composting. All across the country, many states are looking at pulling waste out of…pulling certain organic waste out of the waste stream and composting it or deriving energy from it, (Pause) As opposed to landfilling it.
If we continue to expand our landfills we will draw waste away from our waste to energy facilities. We have 4 waste to energy facilities in the state of Maine. The state of Maine has made a huge investment in waste to energy, and rightly so. The state of Maryland, recently put waste to energy as a Top tier renewable. Just as high as, Uhhh…as,,, as wind as…as some of the more fancy, Ummm…renewables that are out there today. We will also, if we continue to expand our landfills and this is probably most important and dear to most of us: invite the importation of waste into our state. And I know that there are ways to control that. But, if you contin…if we have the capacity, I assure you, the waste will come. It will find its way into our landfills. If it’s there it’ll…it will find its way there. And I don’t think any of us want to increase the amount of waste coming into the state of Maine.
I saw this when I was, Ah, in New York. I saw this in Pennsylvania, where the states that were boarding there high populated areas, became the dumping grounds (short pause) for those densely populated areas. And I don’t think any of us would want to…to see that here in the state of Maine. It was funny, when I came in today, there was a number of us in the industry that began to assemble outside, Ummm… the doors here…O.K.? We all started talking about: ‘Hey do you have any extra waste?’ I asked my good friend, ‘Do you have any extra waste? We’re out.’ I asked my other good friend: We’re…we’re going to be short this month. O.K.? Everybody is desperate for waste, particularly this time of year. There isn’t a shortage…alright? This is a shortage of waste out there. We all at the waste/Energy pla…plants we… I have a designated amount of…of material that we need to process each and every year. For…for Eco-Maine it’s a 170,000 tones. Ummm…Greg’s is…mentioned at 10 percent reduction in…in their waste stream. WE have seen 25 percent reduction over the last 5 years, in our waste stream, from our own communities. Now some of that is good recycling habits, Ahhmmm… but most of it really is the recession. Ahhhmmm…and…and so, we have to replace that waste; and how are we replacing it? We’re reaching out to other communities, because we’re still operating it at full capacity. But, we have to reach out to other communities to draw their waste into our facility. Help regionli… grow our region and our approach to solid waste management. And that’s working so far.
But we admit, there’s no way, that we can compete ton for ton, with landfills. Because if our member communities came to me and said: ‘Hey look, we want to reduce our rates. How could we do it tomorrow?’
The first thing I’d probably say is, ‘shut down the waste energy facility and start landfilling our landfill.’
Of course they’re not going to do that, because we are one of the few communities, our size, that has a landfill, that’s still within two and a half miles, from the most densely pop…populated area of our state. The only reason why we still have that landfill is simply because we’ve conserved that space, we’ve employed our waste to energy facility and we get a 90 percent reduction in our waste mass. There’s … there’s no organic’s in our waste. There’s no material in our…in our…in our… in our…Ummm… in our landfill, Ummm… that hasn’t been processed or least…or at the very least, we’ve made a good push for recycling. And I would hate to see that go the other direction, and also future liabilities. The good thing about waste to energy facilities is that it stabilizes the waste today, to make it suitable for landfilling. Landfilling raw waste becomes a liability. Why? Because everything’s still alive, it’s all still there, it doesn’t go away. And I’ve mentioned at this committee before, we’ve done some studies, where we’ve gone back 20 years and dug up their waste and I can still see, Ahhh…the newspaper…I can still read the newspapers. I can still or…Ummm…I can still identify leaves and grass clippings, because it’s been so well prepared…Uhhh…preserved in a…in a solid waste landfill. So, what we’re doing, is we’re doing, is we’re preserving our waste, for … for our future generations. Again, we have to have landfills; but let’s make sure we save that space for someday in the future. I appreciate the administration’s decision to amend the public benefit determination statue; however I do not think their proposal goes far enough and I strongly support the amendment that was offered by Mr. Lounder. Again, I don’t agree with the landfill expansion, but in this day and in our age, I think we have to come to some level of compromise; and that’s where I am today.
Mr. Lounders’ amendment, I think will … will provide the goals, Ahhh… will … will … will … support the goals that were set out some years ago, to preserve the waste hierarchy. However though, the waste hierarchy has for … for, far too long been sitting on a shelf collecting dust, and we need to advance it. And what this amendment will advance the waste hierarchy and be sure that any expansion only takes place after careful review, and no other alternative is available to our, our, Ummm…our…our communities in the State of Mane. And that’s what’s so important, because we need to look at reduce, re-use, recycle. We need to look at composting recycle…Ah…composting waste to energy, before we consider landfilling. And I just wish that we could be talking about composting facilities and expanding our recycling facilities here in this committee before we start talking about the last rung of the hierarchy. And that’s thee expansion of our landfills. If you know of anybody who has some extra waste, we would be glad to take it. As on public record we … we are not full and I think many of the other waste to energy facilities would state … would … would … would … ahhh … support me on … on that message thank you and I’ll be happy to answer any questions you may have.”
Note to readers:
Bob Duchesne is heard crumping up a piece of paper.
Bob Duchesne :
“You can have this.”
(Mild laugher is heard in room.)
Senator Tom Saviello:
“That’s recyclable.”
Kevin Roache:
“We got that too.”
Bob Duchesne:
“Part of the issue I’m always grappling with is geographic. Ummm … the waste energy facilities are all, ( Note to readers: Next words were either: ‘are truly,’ or ‘Quad truly.’ It picks up at : ) near the population of Southern Maine and all to that area. Western Maine is a little distant and has the extra trucking costs. If crossroads were a waste energy facility, I’m not sure if we’d be having the same discussion, but it’s a landfill. How would you, sitting in our position, view that geographic challenge in the western (Note to readers: inaudible word her. It picks up at : ) things?”
Kevin Roache:
“there’s Massachusetts waste that’s going up to (Quick light chuckle here.) you know, oh, far north into…into the state of Maine. Ummm… transportation is…is obviously something that we don’t like to see and … and in fact usually landfills are now located … they’re regional landfills are now located … they’re regional landfills and they’re located in faraway places. That’s only going to increase the truck traffic to, ahhh … On our highways, of … of … of hauling solid waste. Ummm … but, Ummm… I don’t think the waste to energy facilities are that far away from those generation points that… that couldn’t be satisfied. Because, I’m seeing waste being transported
from Boston Massachusetts, ahhhmmm…almost to Rochester New York, Ahhhmmm…that’s a long way to haul trash and Ummm…And right now with…with Diesel prices the way they are, Ummm…that’s… that’s only going to become more and more challenging.
Ahhhmmm…One of the things that we’re very fortunate, you’re right, is that we have a home for our waste right in our community. We process all of the materials right in our communities, so we have that benefit. However, we’re seeing, as we are being to regionalize, and we have more capacity available, we’re seeing more and more communities show some interest in our long term contracts that’s …that are available, Ummm…Simply because we have the capacity. Both due to the recession and both due to thee, ahhhmmm…thee…thee…positive recycling programs that our communities are offering.
Note to readers :
inaudible comments from committee members here. It picks up here.
Senator
Tom Saviello : “Senator Goodall.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“Thank you Mr. Chairman. Ah, What’s, Ah… your price per ton, right now, average for ‘S.W.’?”
Kevin Roach :
“Ahhh…Our communities, Ahhh… we have different rates for different, ahhmmm…different communities, simply because, whether it’s long term – short term; but I…our…our member communities right now pay $88 a ton plus an assessment. Ahhmmm…spot right now is…is about $40 a ton.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“What’s the assessment?”
Kevin Roach :
“On…thee…thee… assessment equals, ahhh…right now it’s four million…I’m sorry, Ah…yeah, four million dollars a year. Mostly that’s due to, Ummm…debt service. I will tell you that, you know, our debt service is…is on thee decline. Our communities decided to take an aggressive… Ah, take an aggressive schedule on our debt service. Last year we paid 11 million. This year we’re paying 7 million. Next year 4 million and the year after 300,000.
Senator Seth Goodall :
“So what happens…What’s the price per ton? Ummm…right now when you calculate the assessment at Juniper Ridge?”
Kevin Roach :
“Ummm…it…if…if…if… you ….if you divide it by the tons, you probably working at about $75 a ton.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“So you’re at about $155 a ton.”
Kevin Roach :
“If…If you added both together.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“But, that’s going to ‘sunset,’ when you said in a few years.”
Kevin Roach :
“That’s going to ‘sunset,’ our communities decided to take, you know, a ‘fast road,’ on…in…on debt.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“I’m not second guessing…”
Kevin Roach :
“Yeap.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“…any of your communities.”
Kevin Roach
: “Yup.”
Note to readers:
Both Senator Seth Goodall and Kevin Roach are talking at the same time, obscuring the conversation until it picks up here:
Kevin Roach :
“I don’t, just…I’m defending why it’s high right now and it’s high because they wanted relief on the back end.”
Senator Seth
Goodall : “Yup…you know, it’s going to help you get there.”
Kevin Roach :
“O.K..”
(Laughter
from someone else.)
Senator Seth Goodall :
“So, my point is…is that, so, in a few years…your community made a decision to be aggressive about paying capitalization cost for your facility and in those few years ahead, once those capitalization costs and financing is paid for, and you going to be at approximately $88 a ton… In that neighborhood?”
Kevin Roach :
“Ahhmmm…we…we will…we still feel that we’re and going to, ahhmmm…probably have to… have some level of an assessment. Simply because the plant is now 23 old…23 years old and we’re going to have to make some improvements to it. Ahhhmmm…we have been making improvements all along. It’s a good shape. Ahhhmmm…but, Ummm…we feel that the plant has a long life ahead of it and Ummm…we will continue to make those improvements; But we’ve got some big ones coming up.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“So…I guess my question would…now is , at what cost (short pause) should we, Ummm… in essence, protect through the public benefit determination, Ahhhmmm… waste to energy facilities; because we…we’ve heard comments earlier that the tonnage is approximately on the market at $50. So, Ah, at what…what point, is the breaking point…”
Kevin Roach :
“Right.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“…for the customer?”
Kevin Roach :
“And you have to realize that, Ummm…you can’t clearly establish that here, because own and operate a waste energy plant, a landfill and a recycling plant. And…and those…those costs reflect all three facilities. Some of all the other waste energy facilities only have a waste energy plant and they don’t have the other facilities, Ah, to help support it.”
Senator Seth Goodall:
“That’s a general question for all waste to energy facilities…”
Kevin Roach :
“Yeap.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“…I mean, in the State of Maine.”
Kevin Roach :
“Right. Ahhmmm… So, I can only, I… you know, right now I’m only prepared to answer for ourselves and…and…and…we hope to get closer to the $88 a ton. That’s… that’s kinda where we’re shooting for. Ahhhmmm… with the recognition that, Ummm… we want to move into a … a aggressive, ah, composting, ahhh… system. Where we would…we would remove all the organic’s including…including food waste and, Ummm…collect that separately and not combust it.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“Well, to question your argument based on ‘M.S.W.’ as it relates to the expansion, or potential expansion at Norridgewock …correct?”
Kevin Roach :
“Ah, could you repeat that?”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“Your concern, is as it relates to ‘M.S.W., (short pause) in reguards to a potential expansion, at Norridgewock. Could he…talking about recycling…”
Note to readers:
Rest was cut off due to Kevin interrupting.)
Kevin Roach :
“Yes! I…I can’t… we can’t compete with putting trash in the ground. (short pause) We can’t. That’s…that’s a known ent… you know, there’s 88 plants across the country… waste energy plants across the country. Ahhhmmm… and we all recognize that, wwe…our communities made this invest…investment; but we recognize we can’t… the cheapest way to do it is put it in the ground and let our…and let our, errr…children deal with it, someday in the future. And… and, you know, our… our liner systems are going to be there for us, but they’re not, going to be there forever.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“Well, I… I would definitely disagree with you there. I was just trying to horn in on specific tactical issues here that we’ve had 2 or 3 years on some of these debates. And my concern is, is that, Ummm…potentially we have impacted the, marketplace so much by our own actions around this horse shoe, that we’re trying to strike the right balance. And some of us, Ahhh… giving Norridgewock the opportunity (Note to readers: next one or two words were spoken too soft for the recording. It picks up at:) In the future, they, Ummm… (Note to readers next few words are inaudible) position.
So, if we’re going to do that, you’re saying that we need to have public benefit determination as quote “an amendment,” in line.”
Kevin Roach :
“Thee amendment to thee amendment. Yes.”
Senator
Seth Goodall : “As well, as Mr. Lounders would.”
Kevin Roach :
“Yes…errr…yes…I’m referencing…my support….”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“O.K..”
Kevin Roach :
“…is for Mr. Lounders admendment.”
Senator Seth Goodall :
“So, under thee proposed amendment by the Department. (short pause) you feel that, their language addressing local and regional leads and other capacity issues, doesn’t protect Waste Management facilities.”
Kevin Roach :
“Look, we’ve done nothing with the waste hierarchy. If that’s any example. Ummm… yeah, that’s my concern. Because the waste hierarchy was put in place for a purpose and it… we all talk about it, every year, come and talk about the waste hierarchy. And we…we…we haven’t advanced it. We haven’t done much about the recycling rates. Ahhhmmm…And so the waste hierarchy has no teeth. And Ummm… And so, yeah, that…I think that is a real concern, Ahhmmm… that ah, you know, that amendment does… does not go far enough, Ahhhmmm… to control, Ahhmmm… what we’re going to store, Ahhh…as waste in our state.”
Representative James Hamper :
“And Representative Long.”
Representative Ricky Long:
“I see a lot of competition storing all the waste that’s out there; but, I’m really confused. In order to make your process successful, You’re reaching outside of your normal communities to gather waste. Except you’re supporting Mr. Lounders amendment, which basically would prohibit that now is it fair for your, ah, facility to be able to reach out and draw waste, in order to store it in communities, where another facility cannot? It just doesn’t seem right. I don’t see how you can, do what you’re doing, and support an amendment at the same time.”
Kevin Roach :
“Right, Ummm…it really is for me it’s compromise. Ahhhmmm… but, you know, I…I feel that, you know, I…I guess there…there’s…there…we’ve already seen one expansion approved. Ahhmmmm… my understanding is that, this expansion may very well be approved. Ahhmmm… I guess, I was… I was looking for ways, ah, to compromise. And your right, you know, in order for us to survive, over the last few years, we have had to reach outside of our service area. And…and that has… has only… that was the only reason we had been able to and keep our facility running at capacity.”
Representative Ricky Long :
“Would you expect to advance outside of your area (note to readers: Next words are inaudible, until it picks up at : ) Mr. Lounders?”
Kevin Roach :
“We compete now. (Long Pause) all… all of the waste energy facilities com… compete for the same waste now.”
Cindy Sullivan
Doug Papa : “Alright, this is Doug Papa. The date is January 31st. I’m at the Maine Ethics Commission, on, ah, the rotary here in Augusta Maine. And what’s your name again Ma’am?”
Cindy : “Cindy.”
Q : “Cindy?”
Cindy : “Sullivan.”
Q : “Sullivan. I’m speaking to Cindy Sullivan. And Cindy, could you just please repeat, ah, what you just told me about that phone call Patricia Aho made?”
Cindy : “Ah, she did call me, when she was appointed to find out how to step down from being a lobbyist. And we had to work, because it’s never been done before, to figure out how to change it over, to a different principal lobbyist. Because the clients hired their firm, not the particular lobbyist that was assigned to it.”
Q : “O.K., and what’s this information our readers can find online?”
Cindy : “All the Lobbyist registrations are online. There are Maine . gov /ethics.-The website.”
Q : “O.K., so if they want to look up Patricia Aho, when she registered, ah, you said it was December 2010, because that’s when the year begins.”
Cindy : “Right. The registration will be in there.”
Q : “O.K., and she stopped in, ah, you said March of 2011.”
Cindy : “That’s when we officially switched her over. Because we were working on how to actually, do that. But, she had called, earlier than that.”
Q : “O.K., and are you aware, are you aware she was suppose to acusalate herself, if she has a conflict of interest. IF she sat in any hearings, ah, that was related to…”
Cindy : “That has nothing to do with us.”
Q : “O.K.. So, ah, I probably have to go to the, ah, ‘Overseers of the Bar,’ or something like that?”
Cindy : “Ummm…I don’t know where you’d go; but that is not our…”
Q : “It doesn’t have anything to do with Ethics?”
Cindy : “Not that particular type. We oversee the registrations and the reporting.”
Q : “Oh, of the Lobbyist, not of the people that work in government.”
Cindy : “MM-Hun.”
Q : “Is that a ‘yes,’?
Cindy : “Yes!”
Q : “ O.K.. Well, O.K.. Thank you very much and have a great day.”
Dual interview with Mike Belliveau –Executive Director Environmental Health Strategy Center” and Tracy Gregoire – Maine Healthy Children’s Project.
Q : “The reason why you’re here is the B.P.A. that’s going into the childrens’ food and so forth. Is that correct?”
Mike : “yeah. There’s a toxic chemical known as B.P.A.. Which, ah, disrupts hormones in our bodies, and disposes a baby latter in life to develop breast cancer or prostate cancer. It can also trigger learning disabilities. And this chemical, ah, everyone knew about it in, ah, plastic baby bottles and the manufactures got it out of the baby bottles, and sippy cups. But now our lab tests reveal that B.P.A. use is widespread, in baby food jars and canned foods, And that is a significant source of B.P.A.. We’re saying: ‘It’s time to get B.P.A. out of the food supply completely.”
Q : “So, is it, pretty much, that they use it because it’s cheaper for them to use, and they’re to cut corners, or are they using it because they have to use it?””
Mike : “Well, ah, ah, when canned foods and, and, jar lids came into being, ah, they coated the metal. So that wouldn’t impair a metal taste to the food, and for 50 years, they’ve been using this epoxy resin, that’s full of B.P.A.. And so the science has caught up and said that: ‘No, this poses a serious health risk. You need to develop and switch to safer alternatives.”
Q : “Do you have anything to add to that?”
Tracy : “Yeah, and there are safer alternatives, Ummm…available and some of the companies are willingly getting B.P.A. out of their products. So, we know it’s possible to do. I represent a lot of Mom’s with kids with learning and developmental disabilities. You know, my son was able to talk in full sentences at 18 months. But a lot of Mom’s I work with, they may have an artistic child that can’t speak to them or tell them their basic needs. And they’re asking me: ‘How do I protect my child from toxic chemicals?’ And the truth is, most chemicals are never tested for health and safety. And even ones, like B.P.A., that have been extensively tested, and are shown to be of the ‘worst of the worst,’ chemicals are still being used in products. So, Maine families demand that these chemicals are taken out of the products, so we can protect their children. And we can also lower health care costs, and, and protect all the kids and all the families in the state of Maine. So it’s…it doesn’t make any sense to continue using B.P.A., when there are safer affordable alternatives out there. So, we’re asking companies to get this product, this chemical out of their product. And, you know, when we can’t do that, Ummm…by talking to them, it’s time that we pass laws that protect our children.”
Q : “Now, how do you folks feel about the Governors’ response, when he said, ah…when he was asked about B.P.A.?”
Mike : “Well, last year, ah, about a year ago, the Governor, ah, you know, insulted Maine women and ridiculed childrens protection; when he called the worst caste of B.P.A. exposure of being a case of little beards growing on women. It was, ah, displaying his scientific ignorance and callous regard for childrens health. Fortunately the Legislature stood up to the Governor. They upheld the B.P.A. rule, to phase out the chemical in sippy cups, and baby bottles by an overwhelming margin. And now, we’re, ah, you know, our test have revealed that, B.P.A. is widespread in baby food and canned food. So that’s the next step, to get it out of that supply. And, ah, a couple of companies are being responsive. Gerber’s and Earth’s Best are transitioning away from B.P.A.. But two companies are in violation of Maine’s ‘Kid-Safe Products Act.’ Beech-Nut and Wild Harvest have failed to report their use of B.P.A., as required by the law and have made no public commitments to stop using this dangerous chemical.”
Q : “And how do you feel about that?”
Tracy : “Maine families want B.P.A. out of our food.”
Q : “Well, I meant about the Governors’ response.”
Tracy : “Yeah. Ah, we want the Governor to base things on science. And the science overwhelmingly shows that B.P.A. is a toxic hormone disrupting chemical, that needs to be taken out of food.”
Q : “And, ah, how, ah, Beech-Nut and you said Wild nut is that is that correct? O.K., Now again those companies aren’t complying. How much resistance have you found?”
Mike : “I’m sorry. The question again was?”
Q : “How much resistance have you found with Beech-Nut and that Harvest, to comply Maine State law, have you gotten?”
Mike : “Well, ah, Beech-Nut has been totally evasive so far. They have submitted documents to the State that ‘Duck and Weave,’ and, ah, deny the fact. Which is, ah, B.P.A. is in their baby food. So, ah, you know, I find their response to be dishonest and evasive. Ummm…Wild Harvest, which is sold by Shaw’s, and the parent company of Shaw’s. They’ve just not reported it at all. They’ve just…They’ve just…(pause.) You know, here’s a Mega food giant, Ummm…ignoring state law. And so, ah, it’s time for them, Ummm…really the Wild Harvest and Beech-Nut baby food products should be taken off the shelves in Maine groceries until those companies pledge to eliminate B.P.A.. They’re selling products in violation of Maine Law right now.
(Reprint of papers handed out during the BPA Statehouse Protest.)
Protect Your Family’s Health:
Join the Maine Campaign for BPA-Free Food
To protect the healthy development of babies and children, we must end exposure to BPA in our food supply. Our campaign will:
1. Celebrate the success of ending use of BPA in plastic baby bottles, sippy cups, and infant formula cans;
2. Ask Maine state agencies to phrase out BPA in baby food and toddler food containers under the Kid Safe Products Act; and
3. Ask all candidates running for the Maine Legislature in 2012 to support closing a loophole that allows BPA use in most canned foods.
Learning disabilities, prostate cancer, breast cancer. These are just a few of the concerns with BPA (also known as bisphenol A), a widely used, man-made chemical that wreaks hormone havoc early in life.(1) Over five billion pounds of BPA are produced every year by Dow Chemical, Bayer, Sunoco and other toxic chemical makers.(2)
Concern about the health threats of BPA has grown ever since BPA was discovered polluting the bodies of 93% of all Americans.(3) Most people are exposed to BPA by eating canned foods.(4) BPA leaks out of the can linings, contaminating the food or beverage inside. Metal lids on glass jars also leach BPA into our food.
BPA exposure could be slashed by two-thirds if food packaging were BPA free.(5)
Let’s follow the pathway to health that gets BPA out of our food supply!
2010 Baby Bottles & Sippy Cups. BPA use ended after moms demanded safety and nine states banned it. In 2011, Governor LePage tried to repeal Maine’s BPA ban, saying that all women had to worry about was “little beards.” Maine lawmakers upheld the ban by a 145-3 vote!
2011 Infant Formula. Manufactures switched to BPA-free containers in response to concerned mothers. Health scientists, Congress and state regulation. Maine required BPA use reporting, which confirmed complete success!
2012 Baby Food. Maine agencies must now end the use of BPA in baby food jar lids. Gerber eliminated BPA and Earth’s Best pledged to be BPA-free by October 2012. But laggards like Beech-Nut and Shaw’s Wild Harvest violated Maine law by failing to report their continued BPA use!
2013 Toddler Food. Maine agencies must stop the use of BPA in canned foods that are marketed to preschoolers. The food giant Campbell’s, for example, uses Dora the Explorer to sell canned foods containing BPA to young kids!
2014 All Foods. The Maine Legislature must close the loophole that allows BPA use in most canned foods. When pregnant women eat canned foods, their babies are exposed. Everybody deserves BPA-free food!
Help Get BPA Out of Our Food Supply!
What You Can Do
1. Collect signatures for a voter-initiated rulemaking to force the LePage Administration to end BPA use in baby food and toddler food.
2. Write a letter to the editor.
3. Testify at the public hearing (this summer).
4. Ask your candidates for State Representative and Senator to support legislation to end all use of BPA in the food supply.
5. Share this with your friends.
BPA and the Kid Safe Products Act.
In 2008, the Maine Legislature passed a landmark law to ensure that the products we purchase and use are free from toxic chemicals. The Kid Safe Products Act requires manufacturers to tell us what priority chemicals of high concern are in their products. The State can require safer substitutes when they’re available and affordable.
In 2010, BPA was named the first priority chemical under the Kid Safe Products Act. By October 2011, mandatory reporting revealed that 8 toy makers use BPA in plastic parts (including many PlayMobil figures and Chicco rattles). Infant formula companies confirm their successful phase-out of BPA. Most baby food manufacturers reported BPA use late or not at all, in violation of Maine law. (See http://www.preventharm.org/Content/491.php for more info).
The ban on BPA use in plastic baby bottles, sippy cups and reusable food and beverage containers took formal effect on January 2012.
Sources
1. Rationale for Concurrence by Maine Center for Disease Control and Prevention on the Designation of Bisphenol A as a Priority Chemical (April 23, 2010); National Toxicology Program – Center for the Evaluation of Risks to Human Reproduction, NTP-CERHR Monograph on the Potential Human Reproductive and Developmental Effects of Bisphenol A (Sept. 2008).
2. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Chemical Information: Bisphenol A, http://www.cdc.gov/exposurereport/data_tables/BisphenolA_ChemicalInformation.html; U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, TSCA Inventory Use Reports (2006, updated).
3. Calafat AM, Ye X, Wong L-Y, Reidy JA, Needham LL (2008). Exposure of the U.S. Population to Bisphenol A and 4-tertiary-Octylphenol: 2003-2004. Environmental Health Perspectives. 116(1): 39-44.
4. Schecter A, Malik N, Haffner D, Smith S, Harrid TR, Paepke O & Birnbaum L (2010). Bisphenol A (BPA) in U.S. Food. Environmental Science & Technology. 44(24):9425-9430.
5. Rudel RA, Gray JM, Engel CL, Rawsthorne TW, Dodson RE, Ackerman AM, Rizzo J, Nudelman J & Brody JG (2011). Food Packaging and Bisphenol A and Bis(2-Ethylhexyl) Phthalate Exposure: Findings from a Dietary Intervention. Environmental Health Perspectives. 119(7):914-920.
CONSUMER TIPS:
How can I protect my family from BPA?
GET involved in the Maine Campaign for BPA-Free Food!
LOOK for the words “BPA-free” on labels of food containers.
SELECT locally grown fresh and frozen foods, rather than canned or jarred foods, when practical.
AVOID products made from polycarbonate plastic, sometimes labeled ‘PC’, when practical.
MINIMIZE handling of cash register receipts (many use BPA for thermal printing).
REDUCE use or contact with epoxy resins (most are made with BPA)”
Maine’s BPA-Free Foods Campaign is a project of the
Alliance for a Clean & Healthy Maine
A collaboration of
Environmental Health Strategy Center
Environment Maine”
Learning Disabilities Association of Maine
Maine Labor Group on Health
Maine Council of Churches
Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association
Maine People’s Resource Center
Maine Women’s Policy Center
Natural Resources Council of Maine
Physicians for Social Responsibility/ Maine Chapter
Planned Parenthood of Northern New England”
Toxics Action Center
*Second News package Paper
Alliance for a Clean and Healthy Maine
Environmental Health Strategy Center * Learning Disabilities Association of Maine – Healthy Children’s Project * Maine Council of Churches * Maine Labor Group on Health * Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association * Maine People’s Alliance * Maine Women’s Policy Center * Natural Resources Council of Maine * Physicians for Social Responsibility-Maine Chapter * Planned Parenthood of Northern New England * Toxixs Action Center Campaigns
www.cleanandhealthyme.org
PRESS RELEASE
MMD Mainely Moms & Dads
www.mainelymomsdads.com
For Immediate Release: February 14, 2012
Contact Carol Kelly (207) 210-0789
New Test Results Reveal BPA in Baby Food, Canned Foods
Maine Moms Petition State to Ban Toxic BPA from Food Supply
Call for Enforcement on Baby Food makers Violating BPA Reporting
(Augusta) Bisphenol-A was found in all but one of the containers of baby and toddler food tested in a new study released today by the Alliance for a Clean and Healthy Maine. Parents and grandparents rallied at the State House and called for action to get BPA out of the food supply. Concern about BPA as a toxic threat to children’s health has been growing in recent years as it has been linked to cancer, obesity, learning disabilities, male infertility, and early puberty in girls.
“Would any parent knowingly feed our child meals containing BPA? Of course not,” stated Megan rice, a mother of town from the town of China and spokesperson for Mainely Moms and Dads, a local parents group. “But the shocking truth is that BPA is in foods made specifically for babies and toddlers. To protect our kids it’s time to get this dangerous and unnecessary chemical out of the foods our children eat.”
Studies show that one of the most common ways people are exposed to BPA is through food. BPA is used as an epoxy liner inside metal food cans and inside the metal lids of glass jars. The Alliance for a Clean and Healthy Maine sent fifteen containers of food to Anresco Laboratories for analysis in January and released the results today. BPA was found in 11 of the 12 sampled containers of baby food manufactured by Beech-Nut, Berber, Earth’s Best Organic and Shaw’s Wild Harvest brand. It was also found in all three of the canned foods sampled including Campbell’s Disney Princess SpaghettiOs, Dora the Explorer soup, and Chef Boyardee macaroni and cheese.
Moms at the rally announced the kickoff of a signature collection drive to require Maine’s Board of Environmental Protection (BEP) to consider a new rule eliminating BPA from containers of infant formula, baby and toddler foods. Under Maine’s Kid-Safe Products Act the BEP has the authority to regulate use of BPA in foods intentionally marketed to children under three years of age, but the Board hasn’t acted on that authority yet.
“The science on BPA is crystal clear – now Maine kids need action,” stated Lalla Carothers, a mother of two from Cumberland. “Let’s face it, the Kid-Safe Products Act will work if unleashed. As parents, we’re not going to stand by and wait while our children continue to be exposed to this dangerous chemical when safer alternatives are out there.”
Two companies, Beech-Nut and Wild Harvest, are currently in violation of the law for not reporting or submitting assessments of safer alternatives as required by the Kid-Safe Products Act. Manufacturers of infant formula and baby food were required by the Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) to report on use of BPA in their products by last October and those using BPA were required to submit analyses of the availability of safer alternatives to replace the BPA epoxy lining in formula cans. Gerber reported that they no longer use BPA in baby food containers and Earth’s Best Organic reported that they are in the process of phasing out BPA use and will no longer use it as of October, 2012. Beech-Nut and Wild Harvest failed to report their use of BPA and, according to the product testing results released today, both are using BPA in the lids of their baby food containers.
“We need to hold all manufacturers evenly accountable and take action to uphold the law when necessary,” said Mike Belliveau, Executive Director of the Environmental Health Strategy Center, a Maine based public health organization. “Beech-Nut and Wild harvest have violated the law by failing to report their use of BPA. The LePage Administration should take action now to enforce Maine law.”
In a letter sent January 13th, the Environmental Health Strategy Center requested the DEP take enforcement action against the companies violating the Kid-Safe Products Act. They have not yet received a response. Parents at today’s rally were looking for more than just reporting – they said they want to get BPA out of the food supply.
“Every time I use the can opener or pop open a jar of baby food or pasta sauce I’m serving up a dose of BPA to my family. We need to get BPA out of all food packaging to keep our food from being contaminated with this unwanted poison,” said Erica Harris, a mother of two from Gray. “All year long candidates will be looking for our votes to send them to Augusta to join the next legislature. I think Maine parents and grandparents should ask each of these candidates ‘are you going to support getting BPA out of our food supply?’”
The moms and dads who kicked off the BPA-Free Foods campaign said their efforts will roll-out in two phases. First, they will petition the BEP to use their existing authority under the Kid-Safe Products Act to phase out the use of BPA in foods intentionally marketed top children under the age of three. This will include infant formula, baby foods, and foods like Campbell’s Disney Princess SpaghettiOs, and other similar canned foods branded with images of cartoon characters to market to preschoolers. Next, they will educate candidates running for the Maine Legislature and ask them to pledge their support for new legislation that would authorize a phrase-out of BPA in all foods.
BPA was named Maine’s first “priority chemical” under Maine’s Kid-Safe Products Act of 2008 and as a result BPA was banned for use in baby bottles, sippy cups and other reusable food and beverage containers. Last year Governor LePage ridiculed concern over BPA, saying the worst it could do is give women “little beards”. He tried to repeal the law but the Maine Legislature upheld it by a nearly unanimous vote. The ban on BPA in reusable containers went into effect on January 1st of this year.
Megan Rice told the crowd, “no child should be exposed to the hormone havoc of BPA when they eat their favorite meal. We love Maine, we love our kids, and we want BPA out of our food.”
###########
The Alliance for a Clean and Healthy Maine is a coalition of more than 50 organizations dedicated to protecting public health and the environment by replacing unnecessary dangerous chemicals with safer alternatives. www.cleanandhealthyme.org
Reprint of:
Third hand out from Alliance for a Clean and Healthy Maine.
Chemical Analysis for BPA in Baby Food Jar Lids and Toddler Food Cans. February 2012.
We purchased twelve glass jars of baby food with metal lids at four Maine retail stores on January 16 and 17, 2012. The twelve samples include three jars each from the four major baby food brands widely sold in Maine: Beech-Nut, Earth’s Best Organic, Gerber, and Wild harvest. We also purchased three cans of Chef Boyardee and Campbell’s food eaten by toddlers. The samples were shipped to Anresco Laboratories, an independent laboratory in San Francisco, for chemical analysis.
The laboratory analyzed the metal jar lids and metal cans using Gas Chromatography-Mass Spectrometry (GCMS). Each glass-jar lid or food can was analyzed according to a proven methodology: Czech J. Food Sci. Vol. 21, No. 3:85-90 via GCMS. Standard quality control measures (including extraction of duplicate samples, and analysis of blanks) were followed.
Brand : Beech-Nut
Baby Food Product : Homestyle Green Giant Sweet Corn & Rice, 6 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Beech-Nut
Baby Food Product : Homestyle Turkey Rice Dinner, 6 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Beech-Nut
Baby Food Product : Homestyle Macaroni & Beef, 6 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Earth’s Best Organic
Baby Food Product : Tender Chicken & Stars, 6 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Earth’s Best Organic
Baby Food Product : Apple Cinnamon Oatmeal, 6 oz.
Was BPA found? : Not Detected
Brand : Earth’s Best Organic
Baby Food Product : Spring Vegetables & Pasta, 6 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Gerber
Baby Food Product : NatureSelect Fruit Medley, 6oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Gerber
Baby Food Product : NatureSelect Pasta Primavera, 6oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Gerber
Baby Food Product : NatureSelect Chicken Noodle, 6oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Wild Harvest
Baby Food Product : Organic Chicken & Stars Dinner, 6 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Wild Harvest
Baby Food Product : Organic Applesauce, 4 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Wild Harvest
Baby Food Product : Organic Sweet Potato & Chicken Dinner, 4 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Chef Boyardee
Canned Food for Toddler : Mac & Cheese, 15 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Campbell’s
Canned Food for Toddler : SpaghettiOs Original Disney Princess, 15 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Brand : Campbell’s
Canned Food for Toddler : Condensed Soup – Dora the Explorer – Shaped Pasta with Chicken in Chicken Broth, 10-1/2 oz.
Was BPA found? : Yes
Alliance for a Clean and Healthy Maine
565 Congress Street, Suite 204, Portland, ME, 04101
Reprint of
Forth handout:
Alliance for a Clean & Healthy Maine
A diverse coalition of Maine-based organizations has embarked upon a multi-year public health campaign to phase out the long-lived toxic chemicals that build up in the food web and our bodies. Through a series of strategic issue campaigns, the Alliance for a Clean & Healthy Maine will target sources of persistent toxic chemicals to be replaced with safer alternatives. Over time, we will seek government and business commitments to phase out the entire class of persistent toxics in favor of clean production.
The organizations committed to the campaign represent health-affected children, workers, doctors, public health professionals, environmentalists and impacted communities. Together we are committed to protecting human health from toxic chemical exposure and building organizational capacity to sustain environmental health improvements. Working collectively in Maine, we can set the pace nationally for best practices that end the dangerous use of persistent toxic chemicals.
Campaign Partners
Environmental Health Strategy Center
Environment Maine
Learning Disabilities Association of Maine’s Healthy Children’s Project
Maine Council of Churches
Maine Labor Group on Health
Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association
Maine People’s Alliance
Maine Women’s Policy Center
Natural Resources Council of Maine
Physicians for Social Responsibility/Maine
Planned Parenthood of Northern New England
Toxic Action Center Campaigns
Endorsers of the Alliance Principles
AFSCME Council 93
American Academy of Pediatrics – Maine Chapter
American Cancer Society of Maine
American Lung Association of Maine
American Nurses Association – Maine
American Postal Workers Union Local 458
Androscoggin Lake Association (ALIC)
Autism Society of Maine
Belfast Co-operative, Inc.
Central Maine Labor Council
Disability Rights Center
Downeast Health Services – Family Planning
Family Planning Association of Maine
GEAR/Parent Network
Eastern Maine Labor Council
IBEW Local 1837
Katahdin Center for Education and Research
Laborers’ union Local 327
Maine Academy of Family Physicians
Maine AFL-CIO
Maine Assoc. of Interdependent Neighborhoods
Maine Cardiovascular Health Council
Maine Conservation Voters Education Fund
MCC Environmental Justice Program
Maine Developmental Disabilities Council
Maine Equal Justice Partners
Maine League of Young Voters
Maine Medical Association
Maine Nurse Practitioner Association
Maine Parent Federation
Maine Parent Teacher Association
Maine Public Health Association
Maine State Employees Assoc., SEIU Local 1989
Maine State Nurses Association
Maine Rivers
Maine Women’s Lobby
Midwives of Maine
National Association of Social Workers – Maine
Northwest Atlantic Marine Alliance
Portland Tenants Union
Southern Maine Labor Council
Student Environmental Action Coalition – Orono
The Breastfeeding Center of Maine
The Naked Truth Project
United Assoc. of Plumbers & Pipefitters Local 716
United Steelworkers Local 1188
Western Maine Labor Council
We the People
Augusta State House Hall of Flags. Occupy Augusta at the, presentation tables. Along with them is another table presentation. Here is the interview:
Interview with Tammy Trask
A: “Hi! My name is Tammy Trask and I’m a M.A.I.N.E. leader. M.A.I.N.E. stands for: The Maine Association for Interdependent Neighborhoods. And we give voice to low income concerns. People who are out in the communities working a service sector jobs, for instance, and not getting benefits. Now getting health care. Not get sick days/sick paid days. Unable to take days off. So, what’s happening is that now the rug is being pulled out from under these people. They’re going to have to either make that choice of going to work sick and thereby giving possibly that illness to other people…consumers. Or they’re going to have to take a day off and risk losing their jobs. At which puts their family at heighten risk, and very possibly needing to take the advantage of the safety net programs if, any safety net programs are left. Maine Care is a needed and necessary insurance for low income people.
Q : “Alright. Do you have anything else to say?”
A : “Well, I mean. I just…I just think it’s so important that ummm….this administration, that this legislature take into consideration, how the community as a whole is going to be impacted. It’s not just somebody else’s problem. It’s going to be all of our problems.”
Q : “Now do you have any statics or data, you’d like to go over with our readers?”
A : “Well, you know, I have pulled together some things. But off the top of my head, I don’t want to just ramble off things. I think there are 5,000 people who are at risk, and they’re low income working parents in the community who are at risk of losing their health insurance. So that’s huge.”
Q : “It is. It is. It is, and is there anything else you’d like to say?”
A : “No. I mean, for right now that’s it. And I really appreciate your allowing people to give voice to low income. Because we really need to get the message out. So thank you so much.”
Q : “You’re welcome. Thanks.”
Doug Papa talking into tape recorder.
“O.K.. We got some more signs here. We got: ‘Pulls Preti Flaherty Le Puppett strings for smart A.L.E.C..’ the second sign says: ‘Legislatures smart A.L.E.C. writes your Bill. Can A.L.E.C. collect on it? Sure Americans can care.”
The next one is from Bhamberry blog. It’s says: ‘According to M.R.S. Maine’s wealthiest 1% now pays on average effective state and local tax rate, at 14% of lower, than the statewide average accounting for federal off sets. The gap grows to 22%. The wealthiest 1% includes only 6,700. Each making an annual average of $750,786 dollars. A.G.I.’
And this piece of paper says: American Legislation Exchange Council, far right wing lobby whose lobby efforts impact every state. Donors include: American Petroleum Institute, Exxon/Mobil, Charles and David Koch, Wal-Mart, Peabody Energy, Pfizer, Bayer Reynolds America and many other major corporations. The U.S. Justice Department is being pressured to investigate ALEC’s non-profit status. Preti Flaherty Beliveau & Pachios lobbyist Ann Robinson is head of the Maine chapter of ALEC and is close advisor to Gov. Paul LePage.
The ALEC national organization has developed model bills promoting their agenda. Some have been turned into Maine applicable bills, many developed by PFB&P, and submitted in the legislature by ALEC supported legislators. One such bill eliminating same day voter registration was enacted into law them overturned by citizen’s initiative by a large margin.
ALEC’s agenda in Maine includes voter suppression tactics, voter ID requirements, eliminate same day voter registration, favorable redistricting, union busting, right to work, weakened unemployment and workman comp benefits, buts to Mainecare and other social programs, tax breaks for the rich, weakened environmental and safety regulations, weakened business regulations etc..
David and Charles Koch, major ALEC supports, own mineral and pipeline shipping rights for a portion of the tar sands oil coming out of Alberta Canada. Plans are underway to ship tar sands oil through the Montreal to Portland pipeline (236 miles) for shipment to East and Gulf coast refineries. This 70 year old pipeline was built with materials susceptible to the corrosive nature of the tar sands oil. An existing pipeline built of the same materials located in Michigan failed spilling 884,000 gallons of tar sands oil into the Kalamazoo River. Future plans include an incredibly polluting tar sands oil refinery at the BNAS.
The Koch brothers donated a million dollars to the Republican Governors Association which in turn donated nearly a million dollars to the Maine RGA Pac. Former Waldo county senator Carol Weston is a former ALEC chairperson and now heads another ALEC funded Maine organization, ‘Americans for Prosperity.’”
Interview with John McKibben
Q : “Way Back Machine Archive. Net.”
A : “And Google Catch.”
Q : “Google Catch.”
A : “If you go to Google and to will say pages. On that Google search card. That’s older pages of the same thing.”
Q : “Before we go any further. Can I get your name real quick?”
A : “Yeah, It’s John McKibben.”
Q : “How do you spell that?”
A : M-c-K-i-b-b-e-n.”
Q : “O.K.. We were talking about the, ah, data that was removed from the Department of Environmental protections Website. Because when I interviewed Hillary Lister, and Diane Messer, they state that: ‘Hydrogen Sulfide Gas bubbles were being recorded at a Maine Department of Environmental Protection Website. And when I ran into them yesterday, which was February 15th at the …outside of the Natural Resource Committee meeting. Ah, they said that data was dumped. But we can still quote it because they have a screen shot it’s on hard disc, and e-mails as well. Have you been following that at all? The Juniper Ridge Landfill.”
A : “Ah, not that. I’ve been following it basically on a preview, but I haven’t been involved in any co-ordination with anything like that.”
Q : “How about the ‘East-West Highway’?
A : “No. Not at all.”
Q : “Ah, ah, what were some of the other issues going on? Well, let me ask you, why you’re here today? How’s that?”
A : “I’m here to support the people of Maine having the right to say what they want to say. To their Legislators and to the people as a whole. And to try to get around the media’s monopoly on the message.”
Q : “You mean, like the corporate media?”
A : “Yes. Main Stream Media.”
Q : “O.K.. And ummm… well we…let me give you an example of what I was about to say. I was at the Department of Transportations’ Committee meeting about the ‘East-West.’ And what happened was all the camera’s were lined up filming the people who were supporting the proposed study for the East-West Highway. But, miraculously when the people who spoke in opposition was there, the camera’s either thinned out and right towards the end, there was no more T.V. camera’s. Is that what you’re talking about? The, you know, ‘We’re pretending to film news, but we’re not going to really show everything’?”
A : “Ah, it’s not just that. It’s they can even take video of everybody and choose to ignore it. Ah, video is cheap, and you can…as long as you’re streaming video, you can hope someone messes up. Then you can use it against them . So it’s still worthwhile to record people they don’t agree with , just so they can catch them.”
Q : “And how do you think about the media coverage for the , ah, ah, Occupy Augusta, ah, that has been taking place since October?”
A : “Ammm….Ever since …well, when we first started and all the Occupies, we had very good relations with all the media. Except for a couple of news channels. That took our…this story, and put it out of message. And, ah…”
Q : “Can you give me an example of that?”
A : “Ah, I believe Channel 8 and Channel 13, specifically were instances. Errr….We had, errr….one of….a very prominent member, Ed, Ummm…Bonenfant, who was…had a …his knife confiscated, during something that had happened. And he got a new knife, and they just showed it. And during his entire interview, they just showed a little picture of him with the knife, and demonized it.”
Q : “You mean, they only showed his knife. They didn’t show his face.”
A : “Right. Right. Right.”
Q : “Because I saw the one you’re talking…”
A : “It’s a common tool for encampments. For ropes and for everything else. And they just showed the, Ummm….the violent aspects of it, and tried to make him look like a bad person.”
Q : “now the difference between the Occupy Augusta movement, because you folks focused on Environmental issues. As well as economic issues, that didn’t exactly say, it was like the Occupy Maine movement. Which is focused on the 99%. You guys focused on the Juniper Ridge Landfill expansion.”
A : “Our goal was to give a forum for everybody to talk about their own issues. And then everybody to act in solidarity with everybody else on those issues. And once we actually gave a forum for people to come together , we realized we all agreed on a number of issues, and that’s what we focused on.”
Q : “O.K., o.k.. Ummm….And that’s what made you guys more unique. Because, you guys, really weren’t…how should I say it? Influenced more about, say, ah, the, George Soros aspect that took place in the actual Wall Street in New York City.”
A : “Right. Ah, The one that was actually was down in Wall Street, was, they didn’t even know what they were going to talk about at first. And there was some message of: ‘99% versus 1%.’ And it wasn’t until the smaller encampments appeared across the country that message started to get more defined. And you can define that per region. ‘Cuz, the same economic issues that us in Northern New England, are not the exact same issues that affect California. Ummm…we have great natural resources. We have a number of things. But our State advantage of by our neighbors and a number of other State have issues of: ‘Where do they get rid of their trash?’ That they’ve built up because of their Suburban sprawl. And give it to Maine, and that creates problems for us. So we know, these systems that are used. And it’s just identifying them to change them.”’
Q : “Now when you say ‘neighbors,’ were you talking the Canadian neighbors with the ‘East-West highway,’ and the possible pipeline corridor? Or were you talking about the Energy going down south. Because they are upgrading the Power lines? Or Both?”
A : “I’m talking about that. I’m also talking about the tree’s that just go up and down the border. Every day, based on the price of the market. So you’re releasing an immense amount of fossil fuels. Just moving Maine’s natural resources around, without actually using them. And this is a travesty. And we allowed our trees and natural resources to be used by every other State, except for ours. While we impart everybody’s trash.”
Q : “Now are you aware that some companies in Maine actually import trees from Canada?”
A : “Ah, yes they do import trees. But that’s also purely based on the market. And they we’ll sell/ send out those trees to Canada, if the price change enough in the commodities market. Just sending them up and down , across the border. It doesn’t matter whose trees they are. It’s all a commodities based system. Based on which country has the better price right now.”
Q : “And also what the currency of each country is, correct?”
A : “Right. As with the currency with each country as you’re seeing it’s going up and down. We’re what? A penny off a (Sounds like ‘Parody.’) maybe 4 cents is the latest I saw a week ago.”
Q : “I haven’t been following it. Because you know…”
A : “It was just a little side note on N.P.R. a week ago.”
Q : “And N.P.R. stands for?”
A : “National Public Radio.”
Q : “O.K.. I…because, I just got to break it down, you know. O.K., and Ah, I’m losing track here. O.K., O.K.. Ah, have you…so…have you…Ah, when it comes to…it sounds like in tune with the wood aspect in Maine. Can you go more into detail about that?”
A : “Ummm…well, Maine was already completley deforrested once by Massachusetts more or less, when we were just their resource colony. And other count…Errr…they still want to keep doing it. The reason why we build houses out of frames now, instead of big pieces of wood, is because we already destroyed Maine’s great trees. And all we got left are these little dinky things that thy’re going to over harvest, and just completely destroy the soil.
And so those resources never get back to Maine. It goes to everybody else. To their Home Depot’s to their Lowes. So they can put together flimsy structures in ‘Suburbia.” Instead of heating homes here in Maine, when our oil keeps getting cut.”
Q : “O.K., and is there anything else you’d like to add to that?”
A : “Ummm…I’m completely against the ‘East-West Highway.’ I’m actually completely against ’95.’ I think ’95,’ was built purely to extract Maine’s capital and to bring in foreign goods in order to strip more capital away and take a…and get rid of our local businesses. Every time you spend a dollar at say Wal-Mart, maybe ten cents of that goes back to that community in the form of wages and small charity events. But 90% of that money is going to leave the state, and how else do you…that’s why the state is becoming so improvised now. It’s because of all these roads that they are using to extract our resources, for…cash. And then we spend that cash to buy plastic crap from China. I mean essentially, all we are doing is we are using a byproduct …the oil, to move a byproduct of oil all around the country to end up in a landfill in Maine right now.”
Q : “Now were you here at the ‘East-West Highway,’ Ah, ah, public message/public session?”
A : “No I was not.”
Q : “O.K.. Let me tell you…this is what I spoke about. O.K., ‘cuz, because, I’m doing an online series, I can’t…I have to be neutral, about this. But I was pretty much saying: ‘Listen, when I was doing some interviews for part four, I asked Jim Freeman a question. Because, I couldn’t exactly get an answer from the Maine State Police commissioner. I said, isn’t it a coincidence, isn’t it a parallel of a reality, how bath salts are illegal in Maine. Like 2 ½ pounds is a $170,000 and we got all these out of state container trucks going up to Juniper Ridge Landfill and, low and behold, Bangor has now got a huge problem with Bath Salts.”’
A : “Um-hun.”
Q : “O.K.? ‘So they can go from one end of Maine to the other end of Maine, and not worry about having their doors opened up and so forth.”’
A : “Right. Because there is …How else are they going to enforce the laws on the ‘East-West Highway’? We are already trying to shut down the amount of roads that we have to have to have cops on because we can’t afford to pay them. And it’s…that’s completely ridiculous, and it’s probably a very good point. Are they going to put weight-stations on the ‘East-West Highway,’ and whose going to pay that? Are the citizens of Maine going to pay for these weight stations?”
Q : “No, ‘cuz it’s a private highway.”
A : “O.K., so it’s…”
Q : “My issue was the police, if they have a few rest-stops…are those rest stops going to see a sudden explosion of illegal drugs and other illegal substances?”
A : “That…That’s…That sounds like it could be the case. Ummm…but it’s not just…is this going to be running along that pipeline? Is…errr…and uh…well first off, the number of east-west roads across Maine is really lacking. But that’s in order, to keep Maine from just becoming, you know, a place for people to ‘breeze through,’ on their way around, hopefully. Umm…but yeah, I mean, I don’t know.”
Q : “What I think is what they’re going to do, O.K.? It’s not official, but from my synopsis, the ‘East-West Highway,’ is going to run across existing roads. Like Stud Mill road.”
A : “Is it going to use Golden to Golden Road?”
Q : “I have no idea about that.”
A : “Alright. Alright.”
Q : “But my concern was: ‘Well if they are going to be using private roads, for this toll road, what’s going to happen to those residential roads?”
A : “Well this is, what happened with the ‘I.C.C.,’ connector down in Maryland. When I was down there, it was called the ‘Inter County Connector.’ And the idea was: You’re going to link up 270 to 95 without having to go on the beltway.’ And so they built this road, and then they decided to make it a private road. And then they realized, that not enough people were going to use it, so they had to raise the toll rates. And now it costs about $10 a day to use this Highway,
And nobody can afford to use it except for the absolute richest amongst us. And then, before you know it, on 95, they’re probably start here putting in ‘Lexus lanes,’ like they did down in Maryland. And these are, ah…”
Q : “Lexus lanes?”
A : “Lexus lanes. This is like an extra lane on the side of the road, that is a toll. So you can pay three bucks, to get in a faster land onto around rush-hour. But they could probably do that around Portland.”
Q : “O.K..”
A : “They call them ‘high occupant, hot lanes.’ High occupant..not high occupancy travel…it’s ummm…”
Q : “High Occupants.”
A : “No, it’s not high occupants. It’s something else. It’s a different ‘O,’ word.”
Q : “Occupation?”
A : “I don’t know. E call them ‘Lexus lanes.”
Q : “O.K.. O.K.. So, yeah, getting back to the ‘East and West Highway.’ My main concern was if they’re going to use existing roads, because I know Stud Mill road was one of the roads they named off and so forth. What’s going to happen those other little roads that are off that as well? And if there is going to be a police presence, are they going to pull over the Canadian trucks? Because how many of those Juniper Ridge trucks are they pulling over now coming in from Massachusetts?”
A : “Right.”
Q : “And the other concern is if it’s private, you know, that’s o.k.. but these, these, seals, electronically sealed, what are they going to say to the police force/law enforcement office? ‘Oh, do you have one of those things to open up an electronic sealed truck? You don’t? Oh sorry, I guess you can’t open it up.” And then the next thing you know, you know, we could be facing highly illegal substances coming through Maine. And because it’s going to pass two hours of the Mounted Police in Canada, in the St. Lawrence River valley and so forth. They were shocked, except for the guy who sponsored the bill. I think his last name was Douglas. He just looked like he was bored out of his mind, like it was some sort of ‘Psych-Ops,’ thing of course. And that was the main point I brought up and stuff. Because Will did touch upon it. Will Neils. He didn’t go into much detail as I did, because I actually went online and did the research and so forth.”
A : “Right.”
Q : “Do you have anything else you want to say about the ‘East-West Highway’?”
A : “I…no. No, I don’t.”
Q : “Do you…”
A : “I have to go look it up more now. I really have to go look to see where they are going to lay it out in Maine.”
Q : “Well it’s going to be from Calais to Colburn’s Gore. O.K.? And from Calais side, you got the, ah, the, the Stud Mill road. That’s going all the way across. It’s going to go about Flagship Lake. Now the thing with Flagship Lake is, is in my series, I went online, and I did a search engine on: Pattie Aho, ‘attack dog lawyer,’ for Maine dumps. Because 22 years ago, according to ah, Nancy Oden, Pattie Aho was on the wrong side of a dump fight in Township 30. Pattie Ahos’ side spent 3 ½ million dollars. Ah…”
A : “It’s a way of getting trash in en mass too. I mean you could get trash in so quickly with an ‘East-West Highway.’ And especially if you go through that area. Who can regulate that? Nobody lives out… well, there are very few people that live out there, and especially no law enforcement regulation. Errr…or enough to make a difference. That wasn’t even…”
Q : “Well ah, that…the…they do the weight. They do weight stations where they head into Juniper Ridge Landfill and so forth. But the point I was making was, ah, ah, Nancy Odens’ side spent $75,000 and beat back the dumps, in Township 30.”
A : “Un-hun.”
Q : “There was a lot of talk how toxic chemicals are being put in the back of 55 gallon drums. Then put back of containers, doors opened up a little bit, the stuff dribbles out, hits the road. Allegedly, it happened in Township 30. Ah, it might of happened in Athens, and it might be going on with Juniper Ridge. Where the stuff hardens up and goes into the streams and so forth. Ah, A couple of times, supposedly possibly, the Maine Department of Environmental Protections Spill Response team was called, nothing was done and so forth. So with the ‘East-West Highway,’ getting back to Patricia Aho, the Conservation Law Foundations’, Sean Mahoney, gave me permission to reprint a letter.”
A : “Have they done an Environmental Impact Study yet? An ‘E.S.I. report. It would be interesting to see that.”
Q : “Well, on what? The ‘East-West Highway?””
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “All I know is a lot of studies have been done so far. It was back in 1998. I think one in ’08. The Canadian side they’ve been spending a lot money on studies. I guess this one last study is for the investors.”
A : “MM-hun.”
Q : “But the point I was making about Flagship Lake was, ah, Pattie Aho, ‘dropped the ball.’”
A : “Right.”
Q : “O.K.? And he pointed out it might have been intently. So now the Department of Environmental Protection has gots no say, what happens with Florida Power and Light, for Flagship Lake for the next 25 years. And this ‘East-West Highway,’ goes right about Flagship Lake. So, all these Windmills, Dams, these other, ‘power things,’ are going to be able to hook into that grid. And according to Jim Freeman, it’s going to ‘T-off,’ at Costigan, so it can go south. So it’s not just a highway, but you got the pipeline for the electricity. Not a pipeline. Well the electricity. You also got other things you can do too. Like you can build a pipeline for water. So you got all this natural water being drained from aqua fills, being…that can be shipped out to Nova Scotia, and going to Europe and so forth. So…”
A : “I would not be surprised about that in the slightest. Maine has the best water left in this damn country and so, of course they want it. It’s the only thing unpolluted left.”
Q : “So you see how it’s all…”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “…being connected between the gravel, the water, the electricity. Ah, Peter, Vigue did say, ‘communications,’ but I got no idea how he;s working…thinking about communications, and the road and so forth. And it’s also they say it’s a billion dollars, but according to other studies it’s suppose to be $16-$17 billion dollars. So there’s a huge discrepancy there, and forth. So I got no idea why, you know, we’re hearing one price from a private corporation using existing roads versus the $16-$17 billion dollars that they say, was floated around since the Roosevelt Administration about this. So basically, it seems like the wool is being pulled over the Maine people’s eyes and so forth.”
A : “Absolutely.”
Q : “Now do you know anything else about the ‘East-West Highway’?”
A : “No, I have to go look it up. I didn’t know much about it, before I heard about it. Errr…especially in relation to Casella’s and a whole bunch of other places.”
Q : “Because it’s going through Juniper Ridge Landfill?”
A : “Right.”
Q : “O.K.. Do you have anything else you would like to say?”
A : “No, that’s it man. You got me.”
Q : “O.K., O.K..”
A : “Have a good one.”
Q : “Thanks. I appreciate it.”
Interview with Jim Freeman
Q : “Oh, read that that off already.”
A : “O.K., Alright. But we’re here today to explain to people what the American Legislature Exchange Council, or A.L.E.C., is up to. It’s a right wing heritage foundation group that sets an agenda, ah, writes legislation and fives it to Republican Governors around the Country. Particularly, this has been the case in Wisconsin, Ohio, Florida, and Maine. Where the Governors are less than qualified. So they easily grab onto this legislation and try to be the biggest show in their state and it’s just a macho thing: ‘We’re going to cut this. We’re going to cut this. We’re going to cut this.’ It’s all part of the corporate takeover. Ah, A.L.E.C. is funded by the Koch Brothers. Ummm….who are the fourth and fifth richest individuals in the Country. Ummm….and it’s just again as I said, a corporate takeover. So we just want to explain to people why we’re here and this needs to stop.”
Q : “And your sign is the one that says: ‘Preti Flaherty. Koch a doodle-doo, should be a wakeup call for you.”
A : “Ummm…And Preti Flaherty has a woman named Ann Robinson who directly works for A.L.E.C., she works under Preti Flaherty banner, and Severin Beliveau, who are the largest lobbying firm in the State. And she works directly through them and gets paid by A.L.E.C., Ah, to Lobby for her/ their agenda. And we, think this is despicable. Because it’s certain citizens, particular low income citizens in the State of Maine.”
Q : “Now speaking of Lobbyists, I did an, errr…I was…I did…errr…an interview with George MacDonald.”
A : “MM-hun.”
Q : “And he mentioned, ah…I forget her name but, the Governors advisor for the , ah, the landfills. She spoke a lot at committee meetings and so forth. And I did a background check. I …Car…Ah…Carlie, ah, McLean.”
A : “MM-hun.”
Q : “And in her profile, online, she is a former lobbyist, (Note to readers online it says attorney-Doug.) for Preti Flaherty.”
A : “Right. They’re all connected. I mean, they are a law firm, but they are the largest Environ. I mean they are the largest lobbying firm in the country. And anybody who comes into this state, usually they have a thing called, ‘one stop shopping. You come in here, we’ll get your permits, we’re do this, we’ll do that,’ and they are totally connected. They ah, pretty much ran the Baldacci Administration. They are pretty much running the LePage Administration. So it’s just despicable.”
Q : “Now is it, do you also think there is a connection when the Portland Phoenix, did the article, in the ah, ‘the making of Paul LePage.’ They pointed out that, two companies, that Paul LePage worked for in the past, went out of business because of the Department of Environmental Protection. And now all of a sudden, we have Patti Aho, whose head of the Department of Environmental Protection, who used to be a lobbyist for, ah, Pierce Atwood.”
A : “Correct. Yeah. I think they are all connected. I think that people come directly out of industry into the state government with an agenda already in hand, and dismantle anything that’s working in the state. So I think there is a strong, connection to that.”
Q : “And what do you think about the sudden switch of ah, Peter Rodgers going from being, ah, resigning Communications Director for the Governor’s Office and all of a sudden gong over to the State Planning Office after the other, ah, gentleman, who was the acting Director guy got arrested for drunk driving?”
A : “’Good Old Boy Network,’ in action. You were in the Department of Transportation meting the other day. It’s the good old boy network. You know, they bring in people from industry are allowed to speak at nauseam. And people who are, the public, you know, get limited to 3 or 4 minutes. Ummm… it’s just, that’s part of the system. We’re not, this isn’t really a democracy anymore.”
Q : “It’s more of a…I don’t want to use ‘Technocracy.’ But more like the large bankers and whoever, having the money, to put people in the office and then the favors have to be done.”
A : “Corporate control. Total Corporate corruption.”
Q : “O.K.”
A : “Thanks.”
Interview Diane Messer
Q : “O.K., and Diane do you want to talk about what you’re doing here today, at the Rotary in Augusta?”
A : “Sure, we’re standing here at the rotary, right next to the Preti Flaherty building/ Vera Dana building, because they are part of the Corporate Empire. They use their influence with lobbyists to get big business support and control in our Legislature, and our House and Senate. Which we just marched over here from. And we’re speaking to the people and telling them…there, do you hear good honks there? There are people supporting us. We’re telling people to speak out. To act out and to tell our Legislatures we will not tolerate them being influenced and bought by lobbyists and big money.”
Q : “And just as an example, I interviewed George MacDonald, and Caslisle McLean the Governor’s advisor for things like the Juniper Ridge issue, online, her resume/past resume, is lobbyist …Attorney for Preti Flaherty. ( Note to readers online it says Attorney.) so is that the sort of thing you’re talking about? Is how they infiltrated government?”
A : “Yes, Yes, Absolutely. We see, ah, the lobbyist get, ah, specialized treatment. Get special access. Closed door. And, ah, we see amendments. Unfavorable amendments being put on good bills. We see good bills being defeated, because lobbyist throw their weight around. Because they are representing the corporate interests, that, ah, have, ah, the deep pockets now. There is no control over the amount of money, that, ah, corporations can spend. Thanks to, ah, bills like Citizens United, well the Supreme Court case that is, Citizens United. And they feel that’s, ah, a seal of approval for them. They can do whatever they please. Whose going to stop them? Whose going to tell them, ‘no,’? the people are. We’re going to demand ‘no,’ and our voice is going to be louder because we are the bottom line. If they think they can survive, without people to buy, watch their bottom line shrink. When massive general strikes take place. When we refuse to buy their products. We stay local. That’s what we’re working on. Focusing on a local economy. On, ah, people helping each other out. Errr…We can even use a local currency. We don’t need the big corporations. We need to start showing people that they can stand up. Thant they have a voice.”
Q : “Now when I usually…I use the word ‘General Strike.’ People look at me and ask me: ‘what the heck am I talking about?’ Can you go more into detail for our readers?”
A : “Well, it just means , an organized effort to show people not to support those businesses. Not to buy their products. For instance, I’ll use an example. Ummm…in Ummm… ‘Occupy Oakland,’ they, Ummm… when their camp got broken up, and the police were very brutal with them, unreasonably so, not just enforcing law. They were actually violent for no just cause. And, ah, the people in ‘Occupy,’ said: ‘We’re not going to lay down for this.’ Errr…They organized themselves. They, ah, struck first. The, ah, Port of, Ummm…ah, now I forgot the name of it, sorry.”
Q : “ Umm…Port of Entry at Los Angeles?”
A : “Ah, was it Long Beach?”
Q : “Long Beach, yes.”
A : “Long Beach? I believe it was. I may be wrong on that. Check the facts. Ah, they struck a Port, Ah, they got co-operation from the Long Shore men. They got Unions, were supporting it. They virtually shut that harbor down. And then a month or so later, they got a massive effort, on the whole, Ummm….Western seaboard. I forgot exactly which Ports, 3 or 4 Major Ports. Simultaneously shut down, and it put a huge dent in shipping and in business. We need to do more of that on a larger scale and show them that if all they count is their bottom line, if they don’t care about the benefit of the people, we are what keeps their corporation running. We, our buying power, is what in large numbers is what supports their bottom line, and what gives them the big salaries. And we show them, under no uncertain terms, we can cut off the flow of dollars and they will come to realize just how much they do need us. And that they’re going to have to…(signs.) How do you reform a corporation? Ummm…I’ve been thinking about that. Ah, there are some good ones out there. Believe it or not, there are some good corporations that, ah, use ah, Errr….a large percentage of their profits to do public good, and we’re just going to start supporting those. And hopefully the guys that are on the fence, are going to see that, and they are going to jump on board, and say: ‘Ah, we are going to go with the green corporations that support the needs of the people.’ And pretty soon, the, ah, the, ah, large ranks of the, ah, corporate empire are going to begin shrinking. They need our buying power. People think they are powerless against the big corporations, because they are so huge. Because they have so much power now. But they didn’t get anywhere, without us buying their products, and we have to do a lot of different things too. We need to reform our trade policy. We need to eliminate all these free trade agreements. What they are doing is giving, the, ah, corporations, ah, the ability to go off-shore, to avoid taxes. To avoid paying tariffs. They, ah, pay pennies on the dollar to foreign workers, in horrible ‘sweat shop,’ conditions, and don’t have to pay benefits. And then they get a free-pass, a waiver on paying tariffs and bringing the stuff back into the country. Because they are paying under the table, to the Legislatures, who supported these free trade agreements. So, it’s this wonderful symbiotic, vicious, dirty, symbiotic, Errr...relationship. they give the money under the table to the politicians that are willing to continue supporting the, ah, free trade agreements, and sending these corporations offshore. And giving them huge tax loop holes. And then, they just let them back into the Country. Their goods into the country. With, ah, very, ah, minimal, ah, fees of any kind, ah, tariffs, trade tariffs. And they’re reaping huge profits. And then in turn, with all this, ah, huge growth and income, and errr….ummm….they pay more money to the politicians to keep the, ummm…the, Errr….dirty machine, the oily dirty machine working.”
Q : “Now when you said symbiotic, that more of a parasitic thing?”
A : “It is. It is. It is a parasitic, but it’s, you know, the…(signs.) Who do they thing, ummm…is going to come out on top? See the politicians feel like, ah, they can stay in power indefinitely with the corporate money. But when the people rise up against these corporations the politicians are going to, -The ones that have turned their back on the people. They are going to have no one to support them. That’s the idea.”
Q : “Now when you were talking about a ‘general strike,’ wouldn’t that take some preparations? I mean, wouldn’t people have to stock pile on food and goods? So they wouldn’t actually have to buy for, like a month?”
A : “Well, there’s certain, Ummm…you can target certain corporations. You don’t have to strike everything at once. That would be ideal, but it’s going to be hard to organize something like that. You start on a…you could start with a certain category. You could, ah, big box stores, you know. They are hurting tremendous harm to our local economy. To our, little…what do they refer to it? ‘Mom and Pop,’ shops, the hardware store in town that has been there five generations. The shoe shop, that’s been there for…we got in Belfast for instance, we have Colburn Shoes. That is the longest operating shoe store in the United States.”
Q : “Wow.”
A : “Yeah. So we support our small local businesses. We can strike. Start with big box stores, and just get people to say no to Wal-Mart. To, Ummm….all the other large…(Car horn beeps frantically on the rotary.) We got a supporter there. To all the other larger big box stores, like Home Depot and Lowes and all of those. And support our local hardware stores. Support the local folks that are part of our economy. Whose survival depends on us, for the buying. For Wal-Mart, if a store is not doing well, they don’t think twice, shutting the doors. Having a big empty, ah, building sitting there being a drain on the…a blight, and move onto someplace else.”
Q : “Well. Plus it’s also cheap stuff too. Because when people are thinking they are getting a deal, when they buy a vacuum cleaner at Wal-Mart, it’s got a lot of plastic parts. It’s going to break down.”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “Whereas if you buy something from say a local…”
A : “Better made.”
Q : “Exactly. It’s got…”
A : “Quality. It does cost a little more, but it lasts longer. If you had something that’s going to last five years, instead of five months, wouldn’t you be willing to pay a little bit more for it?”
Q : “Exactly, Exactly.”
A : “We just have to let people know that quality counts. To pay attention to that.”
Q : “Now do you, ah, when you were talking about the big corporations also, ah, did I mention Carlie McLean?”
A : “Who?”
Q : “No, I just did, When I was talking about the Attorney for, ah, the former attorney for Preti, Flaherty, who is the Governor’s advisor.”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “O.K.. I just wanted to make sure I brought up that point and so forth. O.K.. And now the other thing too, is, ah…well let me read what your sign says. Yours is the one that says, ‘A.L.E.C.’s prizes in Maine, Tar Sands oil carried on the Montreal-Portland pipeline.’ Now I was just reading about that online.”
A : “Mm-hun. I went to a forum on the 9th of February in , ah, Portland. At the Glickman Library at the University of Southern Maine Campus, and we had standing room only. The room was packed. We could not fit any more people in. That many people that are concerned about keeping, dirty that sands oil, out of the State of Maine.”
Q : “So how many people estimated would that be?”
A : “Oh God! A few hundred people, were there.”
Q : “O.K..”
A : “And that’s not a huge room. If you go up on the seventh floor of the Glickman Library, Amm…we were packed in there. You know, we couldn’t, it would have been…we could of probably have fir 3 or 4 more in, but it would have been tight. You know, not that much movement, not space to move.”
Q : “This is a 70 year old pipeline that was used in World War II.”
A : “Yes, it is a World War II era pipeline. It now carries, ah, gas and ah, I think sections of the pipeline carry, ah, standard crude oil. But, they, ah, the company that, owns that pipeline, Enbridge –It’s a Canadian Corporation, they are…Ummm….been consistently, through various sections of the pipeline that run, Ontario, Umm…Sardinia I think is the name of the town, up to, Ummm….Montreal Quebec. They have been applying, section by section, for reversal permits. Which means they are going to remove what’s flowing in the pipes now, divert it elsewhere and the only reason they are going to do that, is to bring tar sands oil in. And what I’m really concerned about is, with this ‘East-West Highway on top of that they are talking about it, being a ‘utility corridor,’ as well as a highway. Which means they’re intending to put things like pipelines through that same space. We can’t let that happen.”
Q : “And, Ummm….also exporting water, which because is a possibility too.”
A : “Well, we’re doing that on a massive level already. With, ah, letting, ah, (signs.) Poland Springs. The water that’s being pumped out of there is a large corporation, Nestle.”
Q : “Right.”
A : “And most people know that. And their continuing their operations and many towns are feeling the deficit. Wells are in trouble because they don’t have enough pressure. And, you know. Nestle runs out of water pressure in an area, they just pick up stakes and move to another spot. But local communities are passing ordnances now, preventing ground water extraction. So, we’re going to fight them at every location that they turn.”
Q : “Now, I was reading a hand out that was at the Statehouse, and they were talking about…O.K….One of them stated in Michigan they used the same type of pipeline, and actually ‘bursted,’ because of the, ah…”
A : “Yeah, they’re in Kalamazoo Michigan, Ummm….Enbridge had a major, major leak.”
Q : “Wait! The same company?”
A : “Yes, the same company, and it still in the courts. They have not begun the clean-up that they promised. Well they have done a little of it, but they’re not doing nearly enough. Because tar sands leakage, the, ah, tar sands oil, what they call Bitumen. It’s much more heavier. They don’t call it ‘tar sands,’ for nothing. It’s like holding a glob of tar. If you pick up a muck of that, and it’s the stuff… even when they put chemicals in it, they dilute it. It’s called ‘Dilbit.’ Which stands for diluted Bitumen. They have to dilute it, to send it through the pipeline, because it’s too thick and ‘gooey,’ otherwise. And the other end when it gets to the refinery, they have to separate the dilute out of it. And when that stuff breaks, when the pipeline breaks and that leaks. It’s very, very hard to clean up. When it gets into water, it doesn’t float like most oil does. It sinks to the bottom and they got this muck, and they got to dredge to get that stuff out of there. It is a horrible mess. It’s really bad.”
Q : “Wow!”
A : “Yeap.”
Q : “Wow! So, and of course Governor Le Page is he backing this?”
A : “Well, we haven’t heard anything otherwise from his office. Ah, you know, if he was… I fully expect him to be supporting this pipeline. Yeah, for sure.”
Q : “ ‘Cuz I always notice that when I used to talk to….USED TO, I emphasis that, talk to Adrienne, the Governor’s Press Secretary…”
A : “I would suggest you go to his Press Secretary, or his Representative.”
Q : “We ain’t talking anymore.” (Laughs.)
A : “Not talking? Well…”
Q : “The point I was making was, at the…she never had a statement about the “East-West Highway.’ “
A : “Really?”
Q : “And then at the Department of Transportation, who was speaking up about it? But the Governor’s Office was in support of that.”
A : “Yes.”
Q : “And they always do that last minute thing.”
A : “Well, they always want to stay under the radar, until they can spring it on us…right?”
Q : “Exactly, Exactly. That’s probably why they won’t have any statement.”
A : “Well, we’re still going to fight back against it. We’re not going to put up with it.”
Interview with Lucia
Q : “O.K., and do you want to talk about why you are here protesting?”
A : “Yeah. I think, ummm….I think it’s time that we get out and hit the streets and make it very clear we don’t want this Corporate takeover, anymore. Any Ummm….I think, ummm….where the ‘Occupy Movement,’ itself was taken from the, ah, I think the Arab countries, and we just took their example and hit the streets. And I’m really happy that, we’re responding in this kind of way, to things that are going on in our Government, and it’s a long time coming.”
Interview with Phyllis Coelho
A : “I live in Belfast and concerned with the, ah, propane tanks that are being proposed for Searsport. A little sleepy town, just north of Belfast. And, ah, these tanks are going to be holding thousands and thousands and thousands of levels of propane. And, ah, liquid propane. And, Ummm….they will have a flare. About a 137 feet, which is an eternal flare. And tankers will be coming in from Qatar. And they will be unloading the liquid propane from the tankers and there will be pipelines that will be piping into the tanks. And then there will be trucks, ah, that will be, ah, taking the liquid propane, and then shipping it all across the New England area. So, we’re talking about 144 trucks a day, on the roads in, ah, Maine, and also, you know, that means 218 trips. And ah, when you think about it, for over a period of time, it’s about 44,000 trucks.”
Q : “Is that annually? 44,000?”
A : “Yeah. And so, it’s going to create huge problems. And the liquid propane, if there’s an accident, this propane cannot be put out with water. It needs special chemicals to put it out. So people are terrified. Their houses are, Errr…already people are trying to sell their houses. And the D.E.P., has given them, initially a go, on it. And people now want a moratorium, and they also hope that people in Searsport will vote for a moratorium. And, ah…”
Q : “When D.E.P., gave the ‘O.K.’ was that when, ah, Dave Litell was the Commissioner or Pattie Aho, the current Commissioner?”
A : “Aho. Aho. The current, ah, Commissioner. So, Ah, that’s the problem we are facing now. And we are hoping that we have a litigation against the D.E.P., because they, ah, just pushed this through. And we’re hoping that the people of Searsport, will vote ‘yes,’ for a moratorium in March.”
Q : “Now are you familiar who Nancy Oden is, from Clean Earth Farms?”
A : “Nancy Oden from…?”
Q : “Clean Earth Farms.”
A : “No.”
Q : “O.K.. I interviewed her for part two of this series.”
A : “Uh-Hun.”
Q : “And she stated that, ’22 years ago Pattie Aho was on the wrong side of a dump fight.’ “
A : “Oh, I know she was. Yeah.”
Q : “In Washington County.”
A : “She was a lobbyist for the oil companies.”
Q : “Well, Errrr….Pierce Atwood.”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “When she was a lobbyist for. So, Pierce Atwood she was a lobbyist for. 22 years ago on the wrong side of a dump fight, in Washington County, when her side spent 3 ½ million dollars, and Nancy Oden and her crew…”
A : “Un-Hun.”
Q : “…Spent $75,000 and took 3 whole years. Sometimes 24 hours in a day…”
A : “Wow!”
Q : “To, ah….they actually beat back the dumps. And that’s next thing you know, the people with the out-of-state, coming in went to Mill sites. You had Millinocket Mill, and you had all this. Now I contacted Samantha over at the Department of Environmental Protection.”
A : “Uh-Hun.”
Q : “And, I was like, I asked her, I’m like, you know, ‘Is it true that, ah, ah, 22 years ago. Pattie Aho was an attack dog lawyers for the dumps?’ First she says, ‘No.’ And then she says, ‘if you look at our website, for the past 25 years, ah, Pattie Aho has been a great service to the Environment.’ Now I did an interview with Diane Messer and, ah, Hillary Lister…”
A : “She was a lobbyist for the oil companies, Aho. And she is definitely a LePage puppet. And he is of course…LePage is a puppet for the corporations. That’s why we are here today.”
Q : “Now are you aware that, ah, LePage, before he became Governor, had two…worked for two corporations that were shut down by the Department of Environmental Protection?”
A : “I didn’t know that.”
Q : “So…”
A : “The more I met, the more I know is that he’s an Alcoholic and goes to bars.”
(Note to readers: Since I am ‘shut-off,’ from communicating with Governor LePage’s Press Secretary, I cannot confirm this allegation.)
(Voices in the background, “That’s slippery.”)
A : “Whoops! Oh-oh. That’s why he probably, Ah! Ah!...”
(Note: This point the protest walks back to the Statehouse and we have to negotiate a snow bank on foot.)
A : “Oh I can’t go this way.”
Q : “O.K.. Well, the reason why I brought up the Pattie Aho thing also, was because, ah…when I asked her about it, I got it on tape…”
A : “I guess I can try to go this way. Wait, a minute. Wait a second. I need some help. AHHH!!”
(Female voice: “Do you need some help?”)
A : “Yeah, well I can…this guys helping. That’s alright. Whaaa!!!!”
(With my help she makes it over without falling.)
A : “Thank you. I have a false knee. The way it’s called a prosthesis in there. That’s O.K.. I’m fine.”
Q : “So, I asked Pattie Aho at a committee meeting. I’m like, ‘pattie do you mind if I ask a question?’ “
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “And so she goes: ‘What’s the question?’ I’m like, ‘Is it true that 22 years ago…’ She stops and she does, ‘Wait. Who are you?’ I go, ‘Doug Papa.’ She goes, ‘No. You can’t ask me this question during a committee meeting.’ So…yeah, they have been totally avoiding it. And what I was saying was, I interviewed Diane Messer and Hillary Lister…”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “There was information on the D.E.P. website, about Hydrogen- Sulfide gas being released at the Juniper Ridge Landfill.”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “And all of a sudden that data has been removed from the website. Now I can say it…”
A : “Wow!”
Q : “…Because there is a screen shot, but it just seems like all these coincidental things that are taking place surrounding Pattie Aho, whose…”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “Former ‘Attack dog Lawyer,’ and ah…are you familiar with Pattie Aho- the open letter to Pattie Aho?”
A : “The what?”
Q : “The open letter to Pattie Aho, from the ah…Conservation Law Foundation.”
A : “No.”
Q : “Apparently, Pattie Aho, ‘dropped the ball,’ on, ah, overseeing Florida Light and Powers’ Flagship, ah, Lake project.
Because they have a, Hydro Dam up there.”
A : “Yeah.”
Q : “And now the State of Maine gets ‘no say,’ on what takes place up in Flagship Lake for the next 25 years. And it happens to be on the same route as the ‘East-West Highway.’ “
A : “Right, yeah.”
Q : “So, do you…”
A : “Yeah, I’m not familiar with it, but I know about the ‘East-West Highway.’ “
Q : “So, the issue you were…”
A : “Now that’s been going on for a long time. We’ve demonstrated against the ‘East-West Highway,’ ah, about five years ago. And, ah, it was under Baldacci, that we started this whole idea about the ‘East-West Highway.’ Well, that’s what I know.”
Q : “Now do you think that, that the issue we talked about, the Natural Gas Pipeline, might tie into, ah, transporting more of that Natural Gas, ah, through the ‘East-West Highway,’ and into the Canadian…”
A : “Yes. Absolutely. It’s all connected. Just like the Highway is going to connect everything. So all these issues are connected.” (Get’s really angry at this point.) “And it’s to put money in the pocket of the ENERGY PEOPLE!!!! And I don’t want to say anymore. I’m getting out of breath.” (Chuckles.)
Carlisle McLean
Carlisle : “The Governor’s Office, together with leadership in both chambers, committed to composition a balanced, a diversed group to take a hard look at these issues and propose responsible and meaningful change…and reform. We took that commitment very seriously, as demonstrated by the composition of the committee and the proposal before you. On behalf of Governor. I/Of the, the Governor, I’d like to thank Beardsley and the other members of the reform commission, for working to bring something of this caliber to you for consideration. I will quickly review, U…that, what, which L.D. 1791 actually does and then Commissar Beardsley and Commissar Aho. Will also briefly address you from their perspectives. The bill proposes changes to the purpose and scope of L.U.R.C., that will balance environmental and economic interest, for the first time in almost four decades.
The bill returns…ah, retains a jurisdiction wide approach to land use Zone and Planning. This provides certainty to large owners environmental groups. The bill changes the composition of L.U.R.C., from 7 members to 9 members. Six of which would be a county commissioner of a designee from the six counties with the largest acreage of the ‘U.T.; and three Gubernatorial appointments, subject to approval, by the Legislature.
The Governor wants to ensure that independent state boards and commissions, have proper oversight. Therefore, all members should be confirmed by the Senate, as with any confirmable independent board or commission. This change will provide the proper process and oversight for L.U.R.C.. The bill proposes transfer of sight location of development perming…permitting to D.E.P.. L.U.R.C. Spends much of its time and resources engaged in project permitting, which distracts and detracts from its role as a planning body. With this change, L.U.R.C., will have the ability to refocus its efforts. The bill proposes a change that would allow a region, as defined by county boundaries, to remove itself from L.U.R.C. jurisdiction after 3 years have passed from date on enactment; and so long as the county in question, prepares a comprehensive plan and zoning plan. That the planning scheme is consistent with state policies, and let L.U.R.C. has approved the plan. Where this option exercised, it should be done in a manner that ensures cost will be borne by the region in question; and the other planning goals are met.
The administration recognizes that interested parties on both sides of this issues, are not completely satisfied. AS you know, at times, the best decisions are the ones that don’t make one of the other viewpoint completely happy. There are times for compromise and times for fight. This seems like a time to coalesce around long overdue positive improvements. The administrate committees two additional important points. First, the administration stands ready to consider additional work, by your committee, and looks forward to making agency representatives available to…to your analyses, or to you directly during work sessions. Second, transfer site locations and all wind development permitting from L.U.R.C., to D.E.P.. Ummm…will create resources at D.E.P.. The administrations will assert…assure, it’s needs are met.
In closing, I remind your committee that rural Maine is looking…is losing populations and experiencing racket…A rapid economic decline. You should act; on behalf of Governor LePage. I urge your support for L.D. 1798 and would be happy to answer your questions. And I think I just hit 3 minutes.”
Unidentified voice : “Yeap.”
Carlie McLean : “Sorry to speak so quickly.”
Unidentified voice : (Chuckles.) “Thank, Thank you. Any...Yeah, Representative Snider…Senator Snider.”
Senator Snider : “Thank you very much Mr. Chair. Just curious, Ummm…(Pause.) Does, Does the administration see this new Board as, a planning Board, or as an economic development Board; Or some of both?”
Carlie McLean : “We see this Board as a planning Board and zoning Board; And I believe that was the original charge. And we’ve been detracted from that mission. Because they have taken on so much permitting work; and so this will give them an opportunity to refocus on, regional planning/ prospective planning, similar to what they’ve done in Rangeley. And reach out to the regions and really do that kind of work; which they were originally charged to do.”
Senator Snider : “That, that’s helpful. Thank you.”
Unidentified Chair : “Any other questions? Thank you. Ah…”
Commissioner Bill Beardsley
Senator Sherman : “Ah, Mr. Beardsley?”
(Note to readers: microphone didn’t pick up next few words.)
Commissioner
Bill Beardsley : “Senator Sherman, Representative Edgecomb, members of the A.C.F. committee, I’m Bill Beardsley, testifying in favor of L.D. 1798. Ah, the ah, this bill, ah, reflects the unanimous recommendations of the L.U.R.C. reform commission. The L.U.R.C. board, staff and I have initiatives under way. We have moved our permitting division from Augusta to Greenville. We are streamlining the permit process with tools, such as, ‘permit by rule.’ We’re finding a way to add natural resource..ah, natural resource economist and other missing skills to our planning team. We are, (clears throat.) establishing planning relationships with regional planning associations, economic development entities, county ‘U.T.’ administrators, elected officials and other constituencies; such as local, (Note to readers: Next word sounded jumbled up.) Regional, County and land owner planning. So, they can be better incorporated into future, L.U.R.C., comprehensive plans.
What L.D. 1798 does is codify these intentions. What it does is reaffirm L.U.R.C.’s mission of preservation and protection; while adding such consensus. Ah, ah, mission objectives, as economic vitality, local input and respect for private property. L.D. 1798 reaffirms a state-wide board, staff and comprehensive plan. It also shifts the method of choosing the L.U.R.C. board members, from entirely selected in Augusta, to having some members selected by elected officials in local government. For far too many rural citizens, land owners, elected officials, and service center interests, there’s been a strong sediment that L.U.R.C. has been dismissive of their wishes; their views have been marginalized. In acknowledging these sediments, L.D. 1798, has honed a mechanism, by which after several years of giving L.U.R.C. an opportunity to excel, after jumping through numerous expensive hurdles; such as, setting up county charters, establishing and funding planning zoning and appeals capability. After full compliance with all other State and Federal regulations, in short, a very high bar, that last resort. A County could shift it’s planning and permitting from L.U.R.C., to the State man…ah, growth management statues. It’s the statues that now, ah, are used by municipalities. To those that say, ‘Why a role for the County?’ My response is: ‘It only will occur, if we in State government have failed.’ Yes, I do believe, ahmm, (clears throat.) We have the strategies to do a very good job for these neglected constituencies. The Counties will never, ah, consider using the, ah…we do such a good job, that Counties will never consider using an ‘opt-out.’ Yet, without something of substance in the law, to hold our feet to the fire, I see nothing in current law that would prevent L.U.R.C. from perpetuating it’s deficiencies. Finally, there is much to celebrate and preserve about L.U.R.C.. L.D. 1798 does all that; and it also addresses the issue of poverty and living standards in the L.U.R.C., County for the first time. The issue of poverty is conveyed in the attached map, from today’s U.S. Today … U.S.A. Today. It shows that on a geographical basis, half of the most severe geographic poverty, among children and seniors in the eastern, ah, North Eastern United States, occurs in the L.U.R.C., Counties of Maine. And L.D. 1798, ah, addresses these sad realities. ‘Tweet it,’ revise it, whatever; but do not jeopardize the principles embodied in L.D. 1798. Without L.D. 1978, (Note to readers, this time he did say ‘L.D. 1978, that wasn’t a typo.) I believe there will be an elemental loss in Maine rural way of life and core values’ we cherish. Thank you very much.”
Unidentified Voice : “Thank, Thank you. Any questions of Mr. Beardsley? Representative McCabe.”
Representative McCabe : “Thank you Commissioner Beardsley. Thank you for the work on this and in-between of…during the ‘off-time.’ My question is in regards to the ‘opt-out,’ and , and just that ‘piece about,’ holding the feet to the fire. Ahmm…and the other section of the bill, that has to do with the reporting back to the A.C.F. committee. Ahmm, I’m curious if there’s a way to strengthen that. So, there is more ‘checks and balances,’ to/ as Commissar Gardiner said, to keep L.U.R.C., on the track; versus ort of this threat, of the ‘opt-out.’ And there’s people that feel like that’s sort of a ‘Nuclear Option,’ or it’s out there hanging over, this new L.U.R.C.. I, I, I think there probably are there. It’s difficult, because those people don’t ever apply. Those people that feel discouraged. Those people that feel marginalized. Those are the kind of (Note to readers: jumbled words that sound like : Officials.)…people that, don’t always get caught in the report. So, we can do reports on how fast and how many, and…or, how many were rejected once they started; but it’s that other element that’s also in there. And I think the challenge that you, and I and others would have, would be to, ah; find ways to incorporate that and then we could probably do a much better job.”
Unidentified Voice : “Sure, and you know it’s interesting that you included the, ah, charts on poverty. Because the recent, ah, information we received was Washington County, and Somerset County. And I think if you look at Somerset, they’re actually one of the ‘U.T.’s’ that’s probably growing in population; but yet, they have a higher than, you know, average poverty rate. So, I think there is something, statistically speaking.”
Commissioner Beardsley : “Oh, oh, I agree, but it’s a characteristic that, that I think we ah, hope to address.”
Unidentified Voice : “O.K., thank you Commissar. Ah, one other question; Senator Schneider.”
Senator Schneider : “Thank you, Mr. Chair. Ummm… Commissar, with the charts, are you suggesting that by changing this, Ummm…the, the L.U.R.C., to this particular mechanism, is somehow going to change the poverty level in, in the L.U.R.C., Durr…jurisdiction?”
Commissioner Beardsley : “Ah, yes. I, I sincerely believe that natural resources…we can have a 21st Century natural resource economy. Where real revitalization of northern half of Maine and the L.U.R.C., area’s can occur. I’m…we’re committed to that in our department. Ah, and I think, ah, eco-tourism and conservation are on integral part of that. Ah, but I think that we, errr…you know, we have got to, ah, modify L.U.R.C., it’s a barrier. I mean, it doesn’t it does nothing in Nerk…L.U.R.C.’s status and missions says anything about economic development, economic vitality, poverty, any of that stuff. And, so, I simply say we got to codify that in there…”
Senator Schneider : “MM-Hun.”
Commissioner Beardsley : “…Ah, and then I think we can errr… we got wonderful planners. Ah, ah, with that kind of direction and guidance, ah, we, ah, can, can make a lot of headway.”
Unidentified Chairman : “O.K., thanks.”
Senator Schneider : “I have a follow up.”
Unidentified Chairman : “Follow up.”
Senator Schneider : “So, because of what, Ummm…Ms. McLean said earlier; are you saying that the administration sees this, not as a planning board, but as an economic development tool, ah…That, that, their function will be more about economic development than, than as a municipal planning board, which, which, oversees planning. Is that what you’re?...I mean…”
Commissioner Beardsley : “I think, I think, planning has raised the heart of economic development and conservation, ah, ecology; all of those things. My feeling is that, that’s what planning does; That’s what municipal planning does. That what rural planning, that I’ve been involved in Alaska and Vermont do. We plan and incorporate this. Where do you want your economic development? Where do you want processing? Where do you want to protect and preserve? Things of intrinsic value and so, to me, planners should be looking at all elements of that. And that’s what the zones and the plans and the comprehensive plan are all about.”
Senator Schneider : “Thank you.”
Unidentified Chair : “Thank you, Thank you very much. Ah, we appreciate the questions. I think you’ll be available for work shop, and maybe follow up on some of those.”
Commissioner Beardsley : “Yes Sir.”
Unidentified Chair : “Ah, we like to get to the general public, if we can. We have one more Commissar. Ah, Patricia Aho…ah, come up. Ah, and then we’ll start. We’ll re-read the list. I think we had a list of opponents, and I hope they’re all sitting in here.”
Unidentified Voice : “Yeah, ah, Mr. Chairman, after Commissar Aho, there are four people; that because of travel distance, that we will…we promised to get in here, ah but…”
Unidentified Chairman : “Down a hundred miles?”
Unidentified Voice : “yeah, Jonna Reese from Oxford. Roger Heck from, ah, Lee. Stephanie, she must be a Doctor; I can’t read her last name, from Carroll. We’re and also, ah, Lisa Hunt from…it’s not near Vegas, but…It’s from where?”
Lisa Hunt : “New Castle, sir. But I have to run.”
Unidentified Voice : “O.K.. You, you have time to, if you’re number four on this list, or do you have to leave?”
Lisa Hunt : (Note to readers: Inaudible on tape recorder.)
Unidentified Voice : “O.K.. Your next in line.”
Unidentified Chair : “O.K., the ten minute thing.”
(Note to readers : More deliberations between Committee and audience members.)
Unidentified Chair : “O.K….Commissar Aho.”
Commissioner Patricia Aho
Commissioner Aho : “Thank you very much. Senator Sherman, Representative Edgecomb, members of the Committee; I’m Patricia Aho. I’m the Commissar of the Maine Department of Environmental Protection; and in consideration to the people who have come so long distances, I will be very brief. I also apologize that my written testimony contains errors, which will be corrected; and we will make sure you’ll have written testimony from us, by tomorrow. Again, I apologize for those errors. We are speaking in support of the provisions in the bill; that propose to move some of the land use permitting from the L.U.R.C., processee’s, (Note to readers: That isn’t how the word is spelled and that is not how it is supposed to be pronounced.) over to the Department of Environmental Protection processee’s. As you know, the bill proposes projects, such as, the large scale, Wind-Energy developments; in the expedited areas. As well as, the small scale wind energy projects be moved over to the D.E.P.. Other projects that are large in nature, that are, ah, considered under the site location of development act; those projects would also be transitioned over to the Department of Environmental Protection. Excepted from these, would be certain force practices, as well as certain, ah, developments that are within planned
sub-districts in L.U.R.C.. We are, ah, proceeding in discussions with the L.U.R.C., staff; and I’d like to thank them very much for their expertise. Because, we want to make sure that this transition is as seamless as possible. Because we believe, that the proposals provide for a unified and streamlined land use permitting process in the State of Maine; and that is our goal for all of you. We also want to make sure, as I said, that this is as efficient and effective transition for staff; both at L.U.R.C., as well as, the Department of Environmental Protection. And as you heard earlier, the administration has indicated to make sure those, ah, resources that are necessary to make this transition are also, ah, undertaken as well. We will have some minor, ah, technical clarifications, in regards to the language; that is necessary to make these particular transitions on the land use permitting. We are working on that and we’ll have that for the committee and your analysts well before the work session in regards to that. Again, I think we can undertake this work. We look forward to undertaking this work, and working with the L.U.R.C. staff and their experienced, ah, personal that are there right now. And again, we support these provisions because, we believe that it does allow for an efficient land use permitting process, while we also protect our environment and natural resources. We will be here at the work session, for all of your questions in regards to these particular provisions that will be before you, ah, during your deliberations. And I thank you very much for the consideration of the time. And again my apology, I’ll make sure our written, ah, information without the errors is presented to you as shortly as we can. Thank you.”
Unidentified Voice : “Thank you Commissioner. So, I heard you’ll be available. So if we had some questions, maybe they, could be…”
Commissioner Patricia Aho : “Absolutely.”
Unidentified Voice : “…Give them to you in writing before.”
Fort James House Hydrogen Sulfide Spikes 2011